I am not boasting. Neither am I trying to flame anyone. I am simply pointing out a plain fact.

Why? The answer is simple: our civilization survived.

We were conquered by Mongols for 90+ years, but we maintained our culture and kicked them out quick. We were conquered by Manchurians, but our culture conquered our conquerers. Now all Manchurian descedents speak Mandarin and Manchurian language is almost lost (except some archaeologists who can speak it).

At 12 I could read Confucius works (written 2500 years ago). Surely the gramma is a bit different from modern Chinese, and the some characters carry different meanings. However, the difference is very small and I could handle it at 12. Now many foreigners are learning Chinese in order to do business with China. Our language survived and prospered.

We use chop sticks, which has been used for thousands of years. Not even we Chinese still use them. Japanese, Koreans, etc. they all use them. Chop sticks not only survived but prospered.

We invented paper during Eastern Han dynasty. Today everyone uses paper, from writing things on, printing books, to wiping their asses. Our invention survived.

Egypt: you have to find some archaeologist to read ancient Egypt characters (or rather symbols of birds, etc.). There are a lot of things to decipher at the Egyptian excavation sites. Why? Most of the culture heritage of the ancient Egypt has been lost. Today only Arabs (a completely different people) live there.

Indian: the ancient Indians and modern Indians are completely different peoples. The ancient Indian culture and language were completely lost.

Babylon: may have some cultural heritage left and may have influenced the ancient Greeks. However no one can decipher the wedge-shaped characters and most of their culture lost.

Greek: first of all, its culture is not ancient enough compared to the other 4 (China, Egypt, Indian, and Babylon). However their achievement in science and art is admirable. However, ancient Greek culture also got lost because of the hundreds of years of 'dark age'. And modern Greeks do not speak ancient Greek. Their culture is from something different.

"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Panda, that is a TOTAL BIAS.

"And modern Greeks do not speak ancient Greek. Their culture is from something different"


By the way, there are differences between ancient Chinese and modern Chinese too. Both cultures can read the ancient language quite well, though.

...Besides, it's Roman civilization that's the greatest d.


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

"Besides, it's Roman civilization that's the greatest."

It is not.

First of all, it came too late. It is not ancient enough. The Chinese, Babylonians, Egyptians and Indians had urbanization, writing and metallurgy (the 3 major characteristics of civilization) INDEPENDENTLY. In other words, we created our own civilizations. While the ancient Romans learned 'civlization' from the ancient Greeks. And the ancient Romans didn't even develop what they have learned much. The ancient Greeks were very good at math, science, arts and phylosophy, while the ancient Romans were too dumb to learn those. They only created some architects, built some roads, and carved a few sculptures (most of which are rip-offs of ancient Greeks due to their lack of imagination).

Roman had great military success. However it could not hold its conquered territory. The western Roman Empire was overrun by barbarians very quickly; and the eastern Roman Empire was wiped out by the Turks. Today Italy is not a very large country. China is a large country with the most population. There are tens of millions of overseas Chinese. Whenever they go, they maintain our Chinese culture and build Chinatowns.

Few people speak Latin today except some scholars. Mandarin Chinese is one of the world's major languages. It is not much different from ancient Chinese. (Almost all the characters are identical. The traditional Chinese were simplified by the communist party in 1955. But the simplified characters again are quite similar to the traditional ones.)

The traditonal Chinese festivals are being celebrated each year in mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, and in various Chinatowns all over the world. The ancient Roman festivals are all forgotten.

"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

lol. I am a Greek and i can read and understand the older form of the greek language for f***k sakes. I can understand Thycudides (5th century BC) better than an Englishman can understand a medieval english text. Be serious. Not boasting my ass.


P.S @Azzurro, a minor correction : The GRECO-Roman civilization (ancient Rome and Byzantine Emire)is the greatest civilization.
Yes, i am boasting

Quote: "And modern Greeks do not speak ancient Greek. Their culture is from something different"

Why did you call this a bias?

There was 300-400 years' dark age after Greek civilization. Some things remained but a lot of other achievements were lost. The ancient Greeks made great contributions to later civilizations, such as the Roman civilization, and renaissance, too. Their contribution is an important part of western heritage. However their civilization was not continuous and didn't survive.

Otherwise you will see modern Greeks speaking ancient Greek and Greece a superpower.

Even the Greek civilization is much later than Chinese and Egyptian, not to say the Babylonian.


"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Friend, history is not your field, honestly. And this is coming from a man who studied history in uni.

http://www.crystalinks.com/greeklanguage.html
Quote: "Linear B - The first known script for writing Greek was the Linear B syllabary, used for the archaic Mycenaean dialect. Linear B was not deciphered until 1953."

Interesting. You need to 'decipher' your own language? We Chinese don't. We know the meaning of things written at 500 B.C., and we know that straight.

Quote: After the fall of the Mycenaean civilization, there was a period of about five hundred years when writing was either not used, or nothing has survived to the present day.

We Chinese have been literate all the way through. Even during Mongol and Manchurian rule, we used our own language.

And if you tell me you can do ancient Greek, you must be a genius! Don't tell me you can understand Greek translations of ancient Greek language!


"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Quote: "Friend, history is not your field, honestly. And this is coming from a man who studied history in uni.

Which of the guys you were addressing? The Italian or the Greek?

I also studied history in univ.



"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

I suggest you to read more carefully what you post.

1.What has been deciphered was the alphapet. We used a different alphabet, not the current but the language was the same. Thats why Evans and Chadwick "deciphered" Linear B using the Greek language.

2. Dark Ages = disappearance od a civilization according to your logic. So i quess the european civilization disappeared during the medieval european age. So, according to your logic the Greek civilization stoped to exist in 900 BC. So, the Greeks, let us say, who fought against the Persians were not Greeks but a different kind of race but still carrying the same name. But eventhough you are an expert in Greek culture never happened to hear about glossal changes inside the language or other similar phenomena (greek word hehe, and i undestand what it really means). And you compare all other languages and cultural characteristics based on the chinese language. Practically comparing a indoeuropean language with a non IE language. So, i quess you should expect modern Greeks worship even today Zeus and Aphrodite, wear palliums and riding horses. So let us summarize. You are not Greek, you dont speak Greek, you cant read Greek but you know for sure that a modern Greek cannot understand the language of Pericles and Demosthenes. Hmm, nice.

Quote: We use chop sticks, which has been used for thousands of years.

This is the apotheosis (hehe another greek word. God damned greek words, why dont they stay disappeared )of scientific argument.

Quote: Chop sticks not only survived but prospered.

Yeaaaa!!! Those chop sticks are real survivors

Quote: I also studied history in univ.

Obviously you missed many courses. Methodology for starters.

China is the only surviving ancient civilization, and we are the only culture in the world that have repeatedly assimilated our conquerers, our conquerers became a part of us, when we get conquered we only get bigger and stronger.



Chinese people work their butt off and say nothing. Indians talk their butt off about the work they'll be doing however what they say rarely corresponds with what they actually do.

China vs Greece vs Rome that's a tough choice, but
the idea of democracy founded in Greece and religion
spread by Romans are now worldwide. They not only
survived but also became universal and are doing well
too.

Chinese food is worldwide on the other hand. Food is
important culture. Also, Chinese calligraphy survived
and is very much admired in my country too.
Also I believe today's beaurocrasy system was developed
in China long before European industrialization. The
beaurocrasy system with very tough qualification exam.

lol! chinese civilization is gretest!
lol!

There is no chinese civilization now.todays china and anceint china are diffrent.

and BTW the worlds only continuing civilization is India.

How interesting!

When is this famous "gap" of greek civilization? From what has been called the "Greek miracle" by historians (beginning around the sixth century BC) to the fall of Constantinople (1204), classic Greek culture has ruled, even despite the Macedonian unification and the Roman conquest, which has only enriched this very civilization.
The Roman Empire was most, culturally speaking, a Greco-Roman Empire, since Latin civilization was a politically and culturally greek-like one. It has just know a little independant evolution, and a great expansion through the Roman Empire. But the basic principles share the same common basis.
After the Franco-Venitian conquest of 1204, the multiple feudal kingdoms around the unsustainable Latin Empire of Constantinople were still dominated by a Greek culture: the conquerors were far too few and adapted themselves to their new environment.
The ottoman conquest did not change the fundamentals of the Greek matrix, though a certain empoverishment occured in the region. Nevertheless, in rich cities like Smyrne (before the chasing of the Greek populations from Anatolia at the beginning of the XXth century), Rhodes or Thessalonique, an advanced society was maintained, keeping the culture and making it evolve.

Ooops! "Classic culture" is the general calling for this culture; besides the geographic and linguistic characteristics that were specific to the inhabitants of Greece, you can consider that most of the Europeans com from this Greco-Roman (as well as Judeo-Christian and Celtic-German) matrix. Which means it expanded all over Europe and America. Even most European languages were deeply derived from it: French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian are evolutions of latin. Most of English, German and Northern vocabulary are derived from latin (through French or church latin).

Finally, define "great" to qualify a civilization. Because the Greco-Roman has never ceased to evolve throughout the turmoils of history, and has now directly expanded completely over two continents and is present at many degrees on every of them.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

Communism has destroyed much of what we can call "Ancient Chinese civilization" or even "Ancient Chinese Culture".

Chinese communism is only 50 y.o or so.
Civilization and culture is a matter of 100 times
longer than that. Try Egg Fooyong and Hot&Sour soup and
you'll know what I mean.

Look at Russia, they abandoned communism and they maintain
Mother Russia!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We use chop sticks, which has been used for thousands of years.
__________________


Well, chop sticks were used as an alternative of the knife which was considered a weapon and its brutality wasn't accepted at the table.

And second, Using a certain instrument doesn't make you great, or greater. Trying to preserve ur civilization, you customs to your children, prevent them of being americanized and be opposed in any form of alteration may result your civilization's death is what you really have to do. And these are harder than keeping up the chopsticks, considering the modern society and the globalization.

PS:this comes from a going to be historian :P

cheers,
Georgia

-----------
‘Η Πόλις Εάλω’

Μέσα στους θρύλους υπάρχουν αλήθειες
Ποτέ δεν θα σβήσουν για κάποιες ψυχές
Στις πόλεις, τα κάστρα και τις πολεμίστρες
Γραμμένες με αίμα,κατάρες κι ευχές

Αγγίζει το ξίφος την άδεια φαρέτρα
Πανοπλίες πεσμένες,επάλξεις γυμνές
Βαλλίστρες και τόξα ακουμπάνε στην τέφρα
Τα κορμιά κι αν πέτρωσαν οι ψυχές είναι ορθές

Άραβες,Φράγκοι,Άβαροι,Καταλανοί,Οθωμανοί
Πάντα βρίσκαν την κερκόπορτα ανοιχτή
Μα κι αν με μίσος τους Έλληνες χτυπάνε
Πάλι με χρόνια με καιρούς πάλι δικά μας θα ναi..

Look at Russia, they abandoned communism and they maintain
Mother Russia
__________


They didn't actually abandoned communism, it fell in 1990. And no they didn't maintain mother Russia. Mother Russia was consisted by many communistic countries that are now liberal and have a diffrent approach to communism. After the Cold War Russia lost all the countries tha favored her, which she practically forced to do so.

Cheers,
Georgia

-----------
‘Η Πόλις Εάλω’

Μέσα στους θρύλους υπάρχουν αλήθειες
Ποτέ δεν θα σβήσουν για κάποιες ψυχές
Στις πόλεις, τα κάστρα και τις πολεμίστρες
Γραμμένες με αίμα,κατάρες κι ευχές

Αγγίζει το ξίφος την άδεια φαρέτρα
Πανοπλίες πεσμένες,επάλξεις γυμνές
Βαλλίστρες και τόξα ακουμπάνε στην τέφρα
Τα κορμιά κι αν πέτρωσαν οι ψυχές είναι ορθές

Άραβες,Φράγκοι,Άβαροι,Καταλανοί,Οθωμανοί
Πάντα βρίσκαν την κερκόπορτα ανοιχτή
Μα κι αν με μίσος τους Έλληνες χτυπάνε
Πάλι με χρόνια με καιρούς πάλι δικά μας θα ναi..

I think civilization that survived to this time
won't die that easy. It used to die because
of great wars that killed and spread too many people.
Today we won't allow that to happen.

Japan is one of the most Americanised countries,
I enjoy every part of American culture so much and
still have confidence in Japanese culture and sorry for
Americans that they don't have Japanese culture:)

> Georgea

regarding mother russia

Really? I thought Mother Russia was only for Russia.
But you may be right, that KGB founder wasn't a Russian!
It's more concerning to learn that communism didn't die
in that country...

With Trumans ideology concerning communism (it said it will favor any country opposing to communists, provide financial and military help) Soviet Union was powerless, she ofcourse gave out the Ztanwf ideology ,similary to truman's but america found the way to pretend communism spread to europe and the world.

cheers,
Georgia

-----------
‘Η Πόλις Εάλω’

Μέσα στους θρύλους υπάρχουν αλήθειες
Ποτέ δεν θα σβήσουν για κάποιες ψυχές
Στις πόλεις, τα κάστρα και τις πολεμίστρες
Γραμμένες με αίμα,κατάρες κι ευχές

Αγγίζει το ξίφος την άδεια φαρέτρα
Πανοπλίες πεσμένες,επάλξεις γυμνές
Βαλλίστρες και τόξα ακουμπάνε στην τέφρα
Τα κορμιά κι αν πέτρωσαν οι ψυχές είναι ορθές

Άραβες,Φράγκοι,Άβαροι,Καταλανοί,Οθωμανοί
Πάντα βρίσκαν την κερκόπορτα ανοιχτή
Μα κι αν με μίσος τους Έλληνες χτυπάνε
Πάλι με χρόνια με καιρούς πάλι δικά μας θα ναi..

"america found the way to pretend communism spread to
europe and the world. "

But Russian commies did have the song "international"!

ParaColo gave a very good reply. Certainly i will agree with him.
Also, i have to clear up something. I have a great respect for the chinese culture and certainly i consider it a great one. But what annoys me is the stupid nationalism combined with a total lack of historical knowledge.

I second Achaios.

apo poio uni teleiwses?

cheers,
Georgia

-----------
‘Η Πόλις Εάλω’

Μέσα στους θρύλους υπάρχουν αλήθειες
Ποτέ δεν θα σβήσουν για κάποιες ψυχές
Στις πόλεις, τα κάστρα και τις πολεμίστρες
Γραμμένες με αίμα,κατάρες κι ευχές

Αγγίζει το ξίφος την άδεια φαρέτρα
Πανοπλίες πεσμένες,επάλξεις γυμνές
Βαλλίστρες και τόξα ακουμπάνε στην τέφρα
Τα κορμιά κι αν πέτρωσαν οι ψυχές είναι ορθές

Άραβες,Φράγκοι,Άβαροι,Καταλανοί,Οθωμανοί
Πάντα βρίσκαν την κερκόπορτα ανοιχτή
Μα κι αν με μίσος τους Έλληνες χτυπάνε
Πάλι με χρόνια με καιρούς πάλι δικά μας θα ναi..

But we'd have to accept local pride to some degree.
I guess China is now on the stage in its history to
need it. Communism is the problem, it makes local pride
unhealthy. But don't judge Chinese only by reading this
forum. And consider the fact that they are under
communist education. Communism won't last long.

I like people who have local pride. I once visited
Texas and someone told me that the formal name of their
country was "united states and TEXAS of America" I loved that...

@Panda_King
"First of all, it came too late. It is not ancient enough. The Chinese, Babylonians, Egyptians and Indians had urbanization, writing and metallurgy (the 3 major characteristics of civilization) INDEPENDENTLY. In other words, we created our own civilizations. While the ancient Romans learned 'civlization' from the ancient Greeks. And the ancient Romans didn't even develop what they have learned much. The ancient Greeks were very good at math, science, arts and phylosophy, while the ancient Romans were too dumb to learn those. They only created some architects, built some roads, and carved a few sculptures (most of which are rip-offs of ancient Greeks due to their lack of imagination)."


I'm sorry, but you're showing a tremendous deal of ignorance and complete nationalism. Excuse me, do you really think that the Chinese, Babylonians, and Egyptians developed their cultures "independently"? Are you insane? That concept does not exist. All cultures develop from trade and contact with other cultures. Now, please, learn something about the Roman Empire. The Romans were hardly "too dumb" to learn math and sciences. Indeed, it was the Romans that put Greek ideas into practice. It takes genius to be able to do things like that. But the Romans did portray their own styles and culture. Of course Roman buildings were built off Greek influence, just like Greek buildings were an evolution of successive Mesopatamian and Egyptian influences. It is ridiculous to ever say that a civilization is "original" because all civilizations receive their ideas from their surrounding neighbors. But, speaking about the Romans, they did invent concrete, use the arch and dome, as well as the vault. I can go on and on. Ever heard of the Lake Nemi ships? They are the most sophisticated ancient ships ever found.


"Roman had great military success. However it could not hold its conquered territory. The western Roman Empire was overrun by barbarians very quickly; and the eastern Roman Empire was wiped out by the Turks. Today Italy is not a very large country. China is a large country with the most population. There are tens of millions of overseas Chinese. Whenever they go, they maintain our Chinese culture and build Chinatowns. "


Hold on, how can you even make such comments? China has been invaded and attacked over and over again by successive empires and kingdoms just like any other civilization has. What does the size of Italy really have to do with anything? China as it should be isn't even the size of the country's current borders. There is Inner Mongolia, the eastern Turkic tribal regions, Tibet - all areas that China annexed long after the days of the Han and the Ming dynasties (in fact, they were put together by a foreign nation - the Qing). As for population, you cannot compare Italy with China at all, it is completely unfair. China is a massive country, of course it is going to have a much larger population than Italy! As for culture and diaspora, you don't think Italy can boast of any of that? Millions of Italians live abroad (in fact, in our recent general election, they elected representatives to our parliament), and they've exported Italian culture globally. The same happened with the Greeks, the French, the Spanish (look at all the countries that speak Spanish and French) - even the English (British).


"Few people speak Latin today except some scholars. Mandarin Chinese is one of the world's major languages. It is not much different from ancient Chinese. (Almost all the characters are identical. The traditional Chinese were simplified by the communist party in 1955. But the simplified characters again are quite similar to the traditional ones.)"


Latin evolved over the past two thousand years - just as Chinese certainly has. Today, Latin exists, but through Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian, and even some other languages. The only reason Mandarin Chinese is one of the world's major languages is because of China's massive population. It does not compare to the above in terms of diffusion around the world. As for characters - Latin characters have not changed at all since the collapse of the Roman Empire. You are typing with them at this moment.


"The traditonal Chinese festivals are being celebrated each year in mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, and in various Chinatowns all over the world. The ancient Roman festivals are all forgotten."


I hate to break it to you (no I don't), but Roman festivals are still celebrated today. Ever heard of Christmas? That was a holiday invented by the early church during the Roman Empire. The same goes for holidays such as Easter and Valentine's Day. In fact, Roman tradition still is felt through the Roman Catholic Church - even in China believe it or not.

By the way, concerning the "dark ages" - it never existed in Italy and Greece. In Italy, Roman civilization continued to thrive (in fact, the "fall" of the Empire was hardly felt, there was a Roman Senate, a Roman court, an emperor, though afterward called "Rex Italianae"). In Greece, it continued through the presence of the Byzantine Empire based in Constantinople.



La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

You know, if China wasn't a Communist country which was somehow ashamed of its own culture (destruction during the 1960s cultural revolution really sickens you), China woul'd get to boast that its the longest continuing civilization, and its still continuing.

But I dont think it would be fair to say that it or anyone else is the Greatest amongst all. Anyway - the elite club China, India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and the Maya can laugh at everyone else and say we ar all equally better than you. :p

Quote: Indian: the ancient Indians and modern Indians are completely different peoples. The ancient Indian culture and language were completely lost.

I have to disagree with this statement. We are the very same people and we have the very same culture. The classical languages of our country are Sanskrit and Tamil, and they are still very much in existence. Yes it is true however that languages like Pali evolved into different languages. In terms of culture/religion, we still have everything that we had 3000 years ago. The prayers that we say for wedings, funerals, festivities, etc. is exactly the same as they were 2 millenia ago, said in the same language, and actually even pronounced the exact same way (you'd know if you have seen the Panini laws of Grammer).

-----------------------------------
17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

@Panda_King, boasting only reflects insecurity and weakness. Chinese civilization is one of the great ancient civilizations, but there are many other civilizations whose culture survived and contributed equally to the progress of humanity.

We have to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses of every culture. For example, where once Chinese writing systems was employed in regions like Korea and Vietnam, it is now no more, whereas the Greco-Roman culture has, in a short span of 200 years, exerted its influence across the globe.


------------------------------------
#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

@azzurroitalia
"By the way, concerning the "dark ages" - it never existed in Italy and Greece. In Italy, Roman civilization continued to thrive (in fact, the "fall" of the Empire was hardly felt, there was a Roman Senate, a Roman court, an emperor, though afterward called "Rex Italianae"). In Greece, it continued through the presence of the Byzantine Empire based in Constantinople."

Far from me the idea of you boasting this narrow-minded uneducated xenocentrist, but please, be exact when you shove facts up his butt. Stick to facts:
476 was the year the Western Roman Empire fell; it was hardly a fact because, since 410 and the first fall of Rome by Alaric's Goths, the Empire was deliquescent. Since Andrinople (371) it had lost its manoeuver army (comitatensii, I think) and had financial difficulties to maintain the border legions, less qualified (limitatensii). Plus no strong emperor appeared (they changed very often, and the political struggles among the patricians were too deep to allow one to be able to rule effectively).
The army, after 371 was mostly made of "barbarians" (whose elite was in fact very romanised; remember even Attila was very proud of his roman officer titles): it had been so for a while (wisigoths and Franks had been faithful federated people for long), but those ones, being victorious, refused to train and be equiped like a roman army. They didn't melt into the Roman pot any more.
After 476, no roman senate, no emperor remained: the king of Italy was the self-proclaimed Odoacre who just took Rome, and more importantly, Ravenne, the capital since the IVth century. He send the imperial symbols to Constantinople and exiled the last Emperor (the 11 years old Romulus Augustule) to Capri. Odoacre was murdered a few years later.

Point is, the only remaining Roman Empire was the eastern one, with its best centuries to come (Belisarius, Basileus II...); it was a greek-speaking one. The only remains of the western's government symbolically lies in the still functionning Roman Curial (not sure of the word in English), which has only existed for the church since 476.
Last point: There was a dark age. From 410 (first succeeded invasion after centuries of the roman limes holding its ground) to the establishment of most durable kingdoms and the Roman Germanic Holy Empire (last half of the Xth century), what Europe endured was not a stable period of prosperity and great cultural achivements. Some were made, as well as technologic progress and prosperity were achived herez or there. But on the whole, the continent (Italy included: the ostrogoth's kingdom didn't last) didn't enjoy long periods of stability: migrating peoples (Goths, Lombards...), constant raids in certain zones (Hungarians, Moors, Vikings...), and mostly constant wars between great lords, kingdoms, duchies... made sure of giving Europe some sport. Apart the brief calm brought by Charlemagne (our revered and beloved king then Emperor), these were unstable times: population diminished (it had bgun since the third century in the Roman Empire), global riches had diminished, and the average level of instruction had dropped dramatically. Culture and knowledge were mostly preserved by the Church. Common latin evolved since these times.
And, apart from the church, what is the only remaining juridic organism born of this that still remains today? FRANCE (496 BC - ?)

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

@azzurroitalia

Sorry, wrong beginning to my long post: I deeply agree with the idea of you boasting this narrow-minded uneducated xenocentrist.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

Too lazy to comment today, but tomorrow I'll write up a big post. I have to say western understanding of China is way less than it needs to actually comment on Chinese culture and history.

One thing GoItaly, go read up the history of Ming, Yuan, Tang and Song dynasties, your post is flawed in many aspects.



Chinese people work their butt off and say nothing. Indians talk their butt off about the work they'll be doing however what they say rarely corresponds with what they actually do.

Italy and Greece are great cultures. We just take language, cuisine and cultural endeavors (music, art, etc.) over the ages, then I would say they are roughly equal.

But if you talk about a civilization as a whole including political, military and economic power then it is not even close.

China has ALWAYS been 1/4 of mankind and until 1860, it always produced the most goods and had the largest economy in the world. Only with the Industrial Revolution in England did this change.

But 150 years later, China is growing again. By 2050, it will be the largest economy on earth once more.

Even if you are generous and say that the modern Italians are Romans, after Rome fell, Italy never had the same economic or political weight of Rome. Greece has little weight before and after Alexander.

China was powerful in each stage of human history. It might have gone done for a hundred years after the Han and then it was rebuilt under the Sui and then the Tang. The Mongols took China down for 60 years and it was rebuilt under the Ming. Until the coming of the British, China under the Ching was still the most powerful in Asia.

And even under the worst period in Chinese history after 1860, China was never fully conquered by Europeans. Britain used Indians as slaves to grow opium to SELL to Chinese. China was ALWAYS rich enough to be a market for Europeans.

Even today China is a massive market for the world. China imports half the world's steel and cement. It is number two importer of oil.

Look at the UN Security Council, China is there. Where is Rome and Greece? Rome and Greece are a long gone as major powers. China still wields massive power after 5000 years.

Seriously, how can you compare any civilization with China over the full course of human history?

-------------------------------------------------
Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

I respect the civilizations of rome and greece because its past glory.I don't think culture revolution can destroy china cuture,it's purly some political fights between leaders.my parent's living enviroment(I mean culture)is same as mine.I don;t know why some people said this,just because it is called culture revolution?lol

and what's india culture? you mean those tribes ruled by arab people and britain people for such a long time?lol.if it is a culture,it should be a culture of being conqured or servant culture.oh,I should say those hindus,arab civilization was great in the history,they are just conquers of india,so it should be called hindu tribe culture if it was a civilized culture.it is still continuing?lol,yep,continuing on kissing other people's ass,just keep going,man.

Too bad every western source say China is the only continue civilization...I can find you over 100 reliable sources that say it, No one but China. We even have our country name The middle Kingdom, Where is roman empire in the world map today?


India civilization was never united in the first place, that why india civilization die the fastest out of the 4.

Guess which civilazation invented the world four greatest invention? That still use today over and over agian? yeah, if any of the 3 civilazation can invent something as close as the four invention then you can change my mind. LOL
==========================

@ Big Fat Panda Bear
Very well said!
Our civilization survived, and prospered. We were a great power; we had difficulties sometimes; but we are definitely coming back! Our language and culture have survived for thousands of years without interruption.

@ Italian Guy
China, Babylon, Egypt and Indians developed their respective ancient civilization: writing, metallurgy, urbanization, and more. There was absolutely no contact (not to say trade) between these 4 ancient civilizations during the early years. That's why I said we developed our respective civilizations INDEPENDENTLY.

Greeks learned from the ancient Babylonians. And Romans copied the Greeks. Now they want to prove that we also copied from other civilizations. The truth is not.

"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

I don't think we need to talk about this,china's culture went through 5000 years,yep,that's true,but we were left behind in recent 200 years.what we need to do is look ahead,we china is coming back in a big way.you know what I mean,buddy.

@ a big fat and really deaf and stupid panda bear

You haven't understood anything to what is roman-greek culture and civilization, eh?
When you say Greece or Italy today, you quote it as if they were the actual heirs of ancient Greece and the Roman Empire.
Here's the intel: the whole of western civilization is this heir!!!!! Read my precedent posts (I know they are long, but I thought Chinese people praised themselves as tough and patient) and ask me what words were not clear. The whole territory of the Roman Empire (at least its european part) is the produce of the melting pot of three fundamental matrixes that have melted: Greek-Roman, Judeo-Christian, Celtic-German. It now covers two entire continents, and is widely present on every five of them. The end of both Roman Empires has not stopped it from developing and expanding; far from it (just as the fall of a Chinese dynasty, or the divisions of China have not stopped China from continuing its way).

You mix up civilization and country. It is understandable as chines civilization is more centered on China itself, despite its various degrees of influence over eastern Asia.

And European countries never tried to conquer China: they had too few soldiers and settlers to send abroad, and they didn't want to be entangled in chinese complications. Far much profitable to sign inequal trade treaties and limit their influence to coastal commercial representations (higher ration cost-benefit).

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

This is a good example, when you type China in Wikipedia..It show China ancient history continuous to modern.

When you type India, it just show Mordern day India.

When the first thing you see on the page is::

"""It also refers to a long-standing civilization comprising successive states and cultures dating back more than 4,000 years.

With one of the world's longest periods of mostly uninterrupted civilization and the world's longest continuously used written language system, China's history has been largely characterized by repeated divisions and reunifications amid alternating periods of peace and war, and violent imperial dynastic change."""

If Roman civilization still countinue, European would be united...OKay?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>

==========================

By the way, how do you compare civilizations achievements. Except from power, which is variable, how do you compare Confucius and Socrate, Jackie Chan and Michelangelo, or the 36 stratatems and Abbott & Costello. Does the great wall compare with french gastronomy, or chinese opera with Gothic architecture?
Your scale of comparison seems interesting to define what is great or what is better.

And I don't know where people got that sentence about the world trembling, but I can tell you Napoleon never gave a **** about China.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

Why you asking me!!! ask your people, they write most of chinese history for westernor. Blame them, is in every western source, even the japanese say it and they hate our gut. When you read a acticle about China from economy to politic you will alway see teh sentence, "it still a countinue civilization"

Learn about your history, Napoleon did care..You know why? because back then China still is one of the world biggest economy. He mean we haven't wake up because we didn't have the military power yet. LOL LOL Why you get mad at us for? LOL LOL

==========================

Lol, this my civilization is better than your civilization topic sucks
Just one comment. For an outside observer, which culture has more influence on the globe, Greco-Roman or Chinese culture. Simple question, obvious answer.


------------------------------------
#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

@redcold

You really don't understand, do you? WESTERN civilization is the continuation of Roman Empire. Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire were just the beginning of it. Proof? Every achievements of both is part of western references, culture, languages and way of thinking. Greek tales, philosophy and theater are the origin of the way we write in arts. Roman laws are the basis of ours.
If you limit the falling of a civilization to the disparition of a country, then when did Greece fall? At the conquest of which independent city-state, of which kingdom? Why do roman ways of administration, laws... are still of use today to different degrees?

Try to figure what is your own civilization before thinking you are able to understand another one? you are not tooled for that.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

First, Greece invented direct democracy, the modern day democracy come from UK which is call indirect democracy. Jonh lock is call the father of democracy for a reason.

second, maybe you define what should be a continue civilization different than other, i don't know but most say china are continue.. I didn't make this up in my head. So you can blame them if you want..LOL LOL LOL


==========================

And I maintain, Napoleon never care about China: no contacts and no way to have any. Only the British Navy had access there at that time. our own was in a deep doo-doo at that time. What interest could Napoleon have in China? This sentence was never pronounced by him: it is far more recent. It is strange you search some kind of justification of a boasting chauvinism in some abroad celebrities.
Since you can not compare GDPs of that time, you should be careful before saying who producted most or not. (About Industrial Revolution, FYI: it began in England in the 1760's and the real effects on production were already there in the 1790s)

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

@redcold again

No wonder China is not ready for democracy with people like you; it is not a patented invention with one scientist declaring "It works!".

If you had given any kind of attention to a decent book history of political ideas, political philosophy, or even a constitutional laws book, you could begin to understand what kind of thinking and progressive state of mind made this very concept appear and develop. FYI, John Locke is only the founding father of the English way of understanding fundamental freedoms. It is one among others of the great Enlightenment thinkers.

Stop being twelve and open decent books.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

I just wanted to wish good luck in China with the organization of the 2008 “OLYMPIC GAMES” (ring any bells?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Athens the city of miserable sinners and wonderful Sins

@ParaColo
"The army, after 371 was mostly made of "barbarians" (whose elite was in fact very romanised; remember even Attila was very proud of his roman officer titles): it had been so for a while (wisigoths and Franks had been faithful federated people for long), but those ones, being victorious, refused to train and be equiped like a roman army. They didn't melt into the Roman pot any more.
After 476, no roman senate, no emperor remained: the king of Italy was the self-proclaimed Odoacre who just took Rome, and more importantly, Ravenne, the capital since the IVth century. He send the imperial symbols to Constantinople and exiled the last Emperor (the 11 years old Romulus Augustule) to Capri. Odoacre was murdered a few years later."


Where do you get Attila being "proud" of his Roman officer titles? He never had any! He always shared a deep hatred for Rome. Perhaps you are confused with Alaric, who was trying to avenge the Roman Empire's refusal to give him a position as general? By Attila's attack, however, a Roman army still existed. The Franks and Visigoths were actually at that point being played by the Romans back and forth. Occasionally the Romans employed one as an ally, and sometimes the other. It was a strategy to ward off invasion. They joined the Roman army in defeating Attila in northern France in the 450s. As for a Roman Senate, it did exist.

After Odoacer overthrew the emperor (he was himself a Romanized German, the overthrow was a "revolt"), he marched on Ravenna and declared himself the "Rex Italiane." He preserved the Senate as an institution, and he even restored them legislative power. What I was saying was, although the Roman Empire "officially collapsed" with the last emperor, Roman society continued normally. Most people simply saw it as the succession to another ruler.


"Point is, the only remaining Roman Empire was the eastern one, with its best centuries to come (Belisarius, Basileus II...); it was a greek-speaking one. The only remains of the western's government symbolically lies in the still functionning Roman Curial (not sure of the word in English), which has only existed for the church since 476."


First off, Belisarius and Basileus were not emperors. Belisarius was a general employed by Justinian I, and Basileus is the Greek term for "king".


"Last point: There was a dark age. From 410 (first succeeded invasion after centuries of the roman limes holding its ground) to the establishment of most durable kingdoms and the Roman Germanic Holy Empire (last half of the Xth century), what Europe endured was not a stable period of prosperity and great cultural achivements. Some were made, as well as technologic progress and prosperity were achived herez or there. But on the whole, the continent (Italy included: the ostrogoth's kingdom didn't last) didn't enjoy long periods of stability:"


I wasn't referring to Europe as a whole, I was referring to Italy and Greece. Odoacer's kingdom did not last, correct, however, he was replaced by a fellow Goth, Theodoric. Theodoric was also widely popular among his subjects in the kingdom, and Italy didn't really suffer the cultural and political loss that the rest of Europe did until the Byzantines and Lombards began fighting eachother over Italy.


@Panda King
"China, Babylon, Egypt and Indians developed their respective ancient civilization: writing, metallurgy, urbanization, and more. There was absolutely no contact (not to say trade) between these 4 ancient civilizations during the early years. That's why I said we developed our respective civilizations INDEPENDENTLY."


They developed their cultures by trading with several peoples. That's the only way a civilization developes, through trade. You can contest it as much as you will, but it's common knowledge.

(PS - What exactly is so shameful in being influenced by another culture? It's a natural phenomenon, cultures develope from the ruins left of other civilizations. That's life. Even China has been tremendously influenced by Western civilization.)


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

Attila had titles: he was officer of the eastern empire as well as of the wastern one. He was Dux Bellorum (fo his region of the Danube), officer of the Comitatenses, officer of the roman cavalery and illustrious man (those were the different titles. Did it mean he was actually a roman officer? No; those were just bribes, token, fancy gifts, honorary titles. Each came along with a tribute to ensure he would not attack or annoy the empire. He didn't hatRome; he wanted to be part of it. If you read Jordanes, Prosper or Priscus, you'll learn that he even believe he could get nominated as Emperor himself. Don't mix up the real Attila with the legend about him.
FYI, a big part of the Franks was a federated Roman people since the 350s: they were Romans and lived on an imperial land that was given to them: Toxandria (province of second Belgium) which is the historical center of my country.
Same thing for the Wisigoths: they were a much bigger people and were granted Aquitania, from which they quickly spread to Spain and southern France.
None of these two people were played by Ravenne after 378 (my mistake initially: Andrinople was not in 371): This is the true military collapse of the western Empire: a catastrophic two year campaign with everyday more limited troops (ressources were thinning at that time) ended in a disastrous defeat against the Goths. Afterr that, he Empire never had enough time and ressources to rebuild a significant army based on the Empire's population (it was already a problem at that time: the populations of the central regions were not really militarizd: Italy, southern Gauls, Spain, southern Greece: rich and far from dangerous zone= drop of the civic virtues).
After 378, the western roman army is mostly made of federated people (Franks, Wisigoths) and barbarian mercenaries. No allogen army could be rebuild after the loss of experience and warfare knowledge in Andrinople, because the Comitatense was far too overstretched, and training, which was highly specialized and complex, could not be carried out on significant numbers any more.
The battle of Campus Catalaunicus (or Chβlons) in 451 was won by Aetius; but his troops were federated people (the Franks under Chilperic,the Wisigoths under Theodoric, some Sarmatians, Burgonds, Saxons and Brittons from both Brittany and Great Britain), mercenaries (the Alans, under Sangiban) and Gallo-Roman militias. The true Imperial troops (aka trained and equiped like comitatense) were limited to his guard.

I agree on the fact that the 476 deposition was a non-event that went unnoticed at the time, because nobody believed in the Western Empire since a while. When you said the Emperor, you meant "the guy in Constantinople". But life didn't go normally: Italy, most of Gaul (west and south west were more spared), Spain, most of the Danubian provinces and northern Africa were totally screwed, plundered and pillaged. People concentrated in medium cities, big enough to have walls, but not big enough to draw the attention of raiders (Sienna, Firenze... most of the cities that made a history after). A demographic drop, a decrase of agriculture, constant insecurity, abandoned trade routes (especially in the naval commerce: western naval commerce didn't recover before the crusades), pillaged cities... Life didn't go as before.

After that:
-Odoacre: though theoretically the last Roman general of the last Roman Army, he was in fact a bribed german mercenary leading a horde of various tribes. His brief rule was never accepted and recognized by Emperor Zenon. Zenon sent the ostrogoths to reconquer the west.
- Theudric: ostrogoth king, he managed to re-conquer Italy and what is now Yougoslavia, but fails for the rest. Despite good beginnings, he dies in 526: a religious war ensued, between the catholic majority and the aryanists occupier.
-Belisarius: sent by Emperor Justinien in 535, this general re-conquer most of the Ostrogoth kingdom, which is now a roman province.
- The Lombards: conquest most of northern and central Italy between 568 and 572. They expell a big part of the population because they carry an important migration with them. The background? An epidemic of plague and new asian raiders, the Avars. Constant ravages.
- 774: the Lombard kingdom, which has expanded to most of Italy and is divided between rival lords, becomes the kingdom of Italy; why? Charlemagne conquered it and name himself king of the Lombards. Plus, he gives the center of Italy to the Pope.

I know Belisarius was a general; I spoke of the beatiful days of the Bizantines to come. Basileus means Emperor (a little more because it also include a religious leadership). And there were two Basileus named Basil.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

"India civilization was never united in the first place, that why india civilization die the fastest out of the 4."

Shows ur knowledge about Indian civilization.Out of the 4 u listed,only Indian civilization is the only continuous civilization in the world today which never died out,unlike the rest of the 3.


http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/india-did-you-know.html

India is the world's largest, oldest, continuous civilization

Although modern images of India often show poverty and lack of development, India was the richest country on earth until the time of British invasion in the early 17th Century. Christopher Columbus was attracted by India's wealth.

India never invaded any country in her last 10000 years of history.

India is the world's largest democracy.

The four religions born in India, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, are followed by 25% of the world's population

Chess (Shataranja or AshtaPada) was invented in India.

Varanasi, also known as Benares, was called "the ancient city" when Lord Buddha visited it in 500 B.C.E, and is the oldest, continuously inhabited city in the world today.

The art of Navigation was born in the river Sindh 6000 years ago. The very word Navigation is derived from the Sanskrit word NAVGATIH. The word navy is also derived from Sanskrit 'Nou'.

Medicine

Sushruta is the father of surgery. 2600 years ago he and health scientists of his time conducted complicated surgeries like cesareans, cataract, artificial limbs, fractures, urinary stones and even plastic surgery and brain surgery. Usage of anesthesia was well known in ancient India. Over 125 surgical equipment were used. Deep knowledge of anatomy, physiology, etiology, embryology, digestion, metabolism, genetics and immunity is also found in many texts.

Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans. Charaka, the father of medicine consolidated Ayurveda 2500 years ago. Today Ayurveda is fast regaining its rightful place in our civilization.

Math

The value of "pi" was first calculated by Budhayana, and he explained the concept of what is known as the Pythagorean Theorem. He discovered this in the 6th century long before the European mathematician.

India invented the Number System. Zero was invented by Aryabhatta.

Bhaskaracharya calculated the time taken by the earth to orbit the sun hundreds of years before the astronomer Smart. Time taken by earth to orbit the sun: (5th century) 365.258756484 days.

Academic

The World's first university was established in Takshashila in 700 BCE. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4th century BCE was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education.

Grammar constitutes one of India's greatest contributions to Western philology. Panini, the Sanskrit grammarian, who lived between 750 and 500 BCE, was the first to compose formal grammar through his Astadhyai.

Thanks for this post, but beware telling what part of the world is/was the richest, the wealthiest, the most advanced, the first to invent... especially when you talk about ancient times. Historians are more careful. Levels of riches depend on many things still today: for some, food is the main expense, for others it can be housing or lands.For countries, it can be many things, from the production of high value-small quantities goods, to massive production and consumption of low-quality steel (China today), to the leadership in science and technology, or the average level of technological equipment... Criteria are decisive to this matter. On the same topic: how many fundamental discoveries were made many times in many places of the world?

Plus, I think Jericho, Jerusalem, the ancient phenician cities are the world's most ancient cities still inhabited today: Jericho was already in the Middle East's geopolitics back in the XVIth century BC (and most certainly back to the XXXth century). Cities like Gaza, Ashdod, Ascalon (Ashkelon), Jaffa, Sidon (Saida), Tyr (Sour)... also. You have also cities like Assiout (Lycopolis) in Egypt that traces back its former being to 2500-2700BC: you can go there, people are nice.

To conclude, I THINK THIS POST HAS BEEN BADLY DISPLAYED: we should have specified criteria (many) to state some advices about different areas. A global position on a civilisation as a whole is just PLAINLY STUPID!!!!!

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

lol,hindu's culture?after conquered by arab people,is already died out.never invade other country?lol.because hindu tribes were weak and never had this ability,after india first become a real country in 1947,it tried several time to take land from it's neighbour,even including china.but weak hindus were beaten badly,lol.those boasting indians.

yeah! The diffrence between india and china is India has a civilizatiobal culture while china dont.

you are still a smelly loser with this BS

keep denying the facts yellow chinese slaves lol!

Indian is the only countinue civilization? hahahahhahaha
You sure are the dumbest foo in here, What western source say that? A crappy rat link is not what you call surce dumbass. Everyone already know how reliable you are.

Go To wikipedia, Type in India dumb sh*it..Show me where it say India is the only continue civilization.. You got to be the dumbest rat ever, use a personal site and call that a reliable source, grow a brain rat.

Here you dumb little rat, "Indus Valley Civilization 3300–1700 BCE"...Do you see that? is end in 1700bce. Next time get a more reliable source before you open your rat ass mouth. Your freaking Civilization die the fastest out of the four.. before you open you little rat, Learn some history and facts..I can't believe rat like you don't even know there own history but come here and tell people about their civilization. You just proof once agian rat like you have low IQ.. LOL LOL LOL LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation

==========================

And I maintain, Napoleon never care about China: no contacts and no way to have any. Only the British Navy had access there at that time. our own was in a deep doo-doo at that time. What interest could Napoleon have in China? This sentence was never pronounced by him: it is far more recent. It is strange you search some kind of justification of a boasting chauvinism in some abroad celebrities.
Since you can not compare GDPs of that time, you should be careful before saying who producted most or not. (About Industrial Revolution, FYI: it began in England in the 1760's and the real effects on production were already there in the 1790s)

--------------------

How the hell you know that he don't care? You his daugther? son? So because you born in france and i got to believe you? Get a brain man, I didn't make the Shi*t out...What part of my post don't you understand when i say i didn't make this up and my source didn't come from chinese don't you get? HUh? tell me..which one. So you telling me Franch wasn't trading with China? Let i check every power back then was trading with china. LOL LOL

==========================

@redcold again

No wonder China is not ready for democracy with people like you; it is not a patented invention with one scientist declaring "It works!".

If you had given any kind of attention to a decent book history of political ideas, political philosophy, or even a constitutional laws book, you could begin to understand what kind of thinking and progressive state of mind made this very concept appear and develop. FYI, John Locke is only the founding father of the English way of understanding fundamental freedoms. It is one among others of the great Enlightenment thinkers.

Stop being twelve and open decent books.


-----------------------------------

What the hell you talking about? What this got to do With Democracy? So you telling me i can change china into a democracy? LOL LOL Is this how your country work? If i can i would.

LOL LOL You know you so dumb, but you trying act like a smart ass..Go pick up a freaking book before you give someone advice on reading. Tell me how is greece democracy back then? Compare today? Can you tell me? We all have Indirect democracy is all thank to UK and jonh locke. Greece use direct democracy, do you even know what direct and indirect is? English got the word democracy from greece just like most other word that have some relation to greece culture. LOL LOL

before you telling me that i don't know what i'm talking about, you should look at yourself. Who in his right mind would believe what the retarded rat AryanArya post? Only you, and you tell me i need attention? you make yourself look like a foo..LOL LOL




==========================

dickhead redcold,

if you cant understand the simple meaning of "continuous",i cant help you.
It does not matter what white licking chinese slaves think about India.after all chinese slaves always deny facts!lol!

dickhead redcold,

if you cant understand the simple meaning of "continuous",i cant help you.
It does not matter what white licking chinese slaves think about India.after all chinese slaves always deny facts!lol!

--------------
Then tell me in your rat language what is continuous? What you been talking about is culture deep shi*t. We talking about civilization that survived and your not one of them.

Rat slave civilization die the fastest and i post it in front of your little rat face. CAN SEE LITTLE rat? is a western source not one of your rat personal source. LOL LOL a little rat Just go google and tell me that a source. LOL LOL What a dumbass rat. Been slave to every race in the face of the earth, being call Negro* by white and trying tell itself white. LOL LOL LOL LOL

I just proof you a dumbass again..LOL LOL is fun sometime..lol

==========================

those smelly people from hindu tribes,who had been ruled by arab people and britain people for more than 1000 years,said china is not a civilized culture as those india slaves.

Technically, as long as Brahminism holds sway over the masses of the Indian subcontinent, we are still continuous civilization.

Everyone that conquers India gets assimilated themselves in the end. Islam has an exclusivist nature, but they are up against Indian inclusivism, and we will win. Subcontinental Muslims are half Hindu anyway, look at their religious practices.

The languages and everything, we are all good here.

Technically, as long as Brahminism holds sway over the masses of the Indian subcontinent, we are still continuous civilization.

Everyone that conquers India gets assimilated themselves in the end. Islam has an exclusivist nature, but they are up against Indian inclusivism, and we will win. Subcontinental Muslims are half Hindu anyway, look at their religious practices.

The languages and everything, we are all good here.
--------------------------

I hope you mean culture not civilization, your ancient civilization/culture or original one is long gone. I"m not trying to put you down or anything that just facts. i like the indian culture/civilization you gave us an easier numbering system, make it easier to write into one million without going out of space on a piece of paper. LOL

==========================

The worlds first university Takshashila is in Pakistan.

So is the Indus Valley Civilisation including Harappa and Mohenjodaro.

Not to forget the River Sindhu.

They are NOT Indian.

Regards!

Indus valley civilization,Takshasila etc are technically in TODAY's islamic pakistan.but culturally and civilizationally,they are always part of India.

lol,india is ruled by arab people for such a long time,you should say that hindu's culture has been an extension of arab culture,although it's not so good

lol! the japanese have ruled of you such a long time and raped you by millions that in reality chinese culture is an extension of japanese culture.

For historical accuracy, China has ceded land to the Russians also. Russia and Japan fought a war in China over control of Chinese territory.

Whoop Whoop, I have a crack in my armor.

Ich bin ein Geschlechtungeheuer.

china and japan have a war,then end up with the win of ww2.in you logic,german and france have 2 wars so france can be looked as an extension of german,all of these are unlike india(or hindu),you smelly people who live in so many uncivilized tribes were ruled by arab people and britain people for more than 1000 years.I only can understand this is because you were malnutrished in your childhood,lol

Japanese slaves even get angry lol!

@AryanArya , Huaxia, redcold

Stop acting like immature children and don't ruin this thread by turning it into a China/India flame war. Doing so is unfair to other members that contributed to this thread earlier and rob them of a chance to participate. Either contribute or find somewhere else to vent your childish insults!


------------------------------------
#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

Getting away from the emotional comments that this thread seems to cause, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever read the work by the British scholar, C Norhcote Parkinson, titled "East and West"?

In this work, Parkinson brings out some very interesting theories and viewpoints. He points out that Western civilization and Eastern civilization have alternately been dominant. When the West was in ascendancy, the East was in decline. Alternately, when the East was dominant, the West was in decline.

Parkinson came out with this theory in the 1960s. He theorized that the West was eventually going to go into another cycle of decline with the next coming rise of Asia. Also, he theorized that Russia would take on the role of Byzantium and insulate the West from Asia; that is, until the West comes into it's next cycle of ascendancy.

Milkman

It is a pretty astonishing theory; I checked and I didn't find any French translation of tis book. Could you fill in a little more? What is the duration of these cycles? I, personnally, don't believe in the "sense of history" theories or any global immanent direction. But on what base does this historian make his theory rely on? It appears difficult to quantify levels of production, of wealth, of global military efficiency, of general technological level, of fundamental science and arts achievements... over more than a few centuries.
Could you give a few key-datas? Don't bother making a huge post, but a few general criterias and periods could be interesting.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

Alternately, when the East was dominant, the West was in decline.
Ah the alternating forces of Yin and Yang LOL



"Men grow tired of loving, singing, and dancing sooner than war" - Homer

Long live hoplites! The tireless warriors!

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of Parkinson's book in French. However, I'd think that there would be a French translation somewhere.

Parkinson brings out some pretty interesting thoughts. One that comes to mind was his viewpoint of the 19th century United States. According to Parkinson, the Americans of the 19th century were not a particularily inventive people; however, they were masters at taking other peoples' ideas and inventions and finding pratical applications and uses for them. As the American frontier expanded, Parkinson noted how the 19th century Americans put to use so many of the European ideas and inventions that beforehand never made it past the embryonic stage.

As for his East and West hyposthesis, he held the viewpoint that the East and West should never merge, for that would cause intellectual stagnation. The alternating rise and fall theorum should be viewed as a natural evolution of human developement. By the way, Parkinson died in 1993.



Milkman

Yea, I know, he was not just really anybody; he is more renowned for his studies on the bureaucracy and its problems (the Parkinson's law is famous), on which I've more than once bumped on during my political sciences studies.

Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!

"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne dιcroche jamais" (Marιchal Joffre)

@Yu Fei

Nice Sig bro!

Good to see a compatriot of the east who admires the ancient westerners-my ancestors.

After Alexanders time the hellenic influence can be see as far as china with Budha statues of the period showing him dressed in ancient Greek clothing.

Amazing how the two opposing ideals were a melting pot in middle asia.

---

Molon Labe! (mo-lone lah-veh)

They mean, “Come and get them!They live on today as the most notable quote in military history. And so began the classic example of courage and valor in its dismissal of overwhelming superiority of numbers, wherein the heart and spirit of brave men overcame insuperable odds. Today, there lies a plaque dedicated to these heroes all at the site. It reads: “Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie".

"Historical justice, however, obliges me to say that of the opponents that have taken up arms against us, MOST PARTICULARLY THE GREEK SOLDIERS, HAVE FOUGHT WITH THE GREATEST BRAVERY AND CONTEMPT OF DEATH. They only capitulated when further resistance became impossible and therefore useless"

Adolf Hitler
May 4th 1941, Reichstag, Berlin

Greeks are born not manufactured, we do not chose we are chosen, those who understand need no explanation, those who don't, don't matter...



Alexander of Macedonia, Leader of Hellas, and liberater of the Hellenic cities of Asia Minor, he spread the superior culture of Greece to all, resulting in the progression of humanity.

"And modern Greeks do not speak ancient Greek."
modern greek and ancient greek are in fact very similar, most of the words are exactly the same and there is a number of ancient greek expressions that are used exactly as they were used 2500 years ago. i've talked with english people who have studied greek and they actually told me that modern greek and ancient greek are almost identical compared to modern english and shakespearean english..

by your post it is obvious that you haven't studied or made an attempt to approach any of the other civilizations. your arguments are just poor.

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Now and then...

Hellas has offered humanity many distingt types of civilisation (civil, polis in greek so civilisation happens in cities, greece was city states). The three main ones are the TEXT heroicTEXT. This civilisation was influenced from the thirst of the ancient hellines to explain the world. The duty of a person was to continously improve himself and so climp the steps to becoming immortal. The steps were man, hero, semi-god, daimon , god. That is the symbolism of heracles (hercules) when in his death becomes a god. All his strugles symbolise the strugles of this jurney.

theogonia (the equivelant of the genessis) says that in the beginning there was chaos. that means that the kosmos was always there . Then the chaos split in to two ouranos (sky) and gaia (earth). this is symbolism between parts of the kosmos that we can see and and the ones that we cannot (even matter and anti matter if you like). then there was Kronos (saturn) which is speled almost identically with xponos (time), then the titans which represent the basic forces of nature untli they got replaced by the gods the representation of higher meanings like enlightment wisdom etc.

What we learn from this is that the gods are not the kosmos, but the meanings the ideas and the forces that shape chaos into kosmos with the meaning of jewell (kosmima)

The old religion was not a beliefe. when one sais I believe he/she automatically admits that he/she does not know. if you know you dont believe, because you know. Beliefs are not interested on how the world is, but how some people would like it to be.

The old religion was not even a religion with its strict sence. Humans got a long way since they first appear as species and we definately are not in the stone age no more. Humans wanted to know how is the universe, what is the purpose of their existance etc. Instead though of accepting some profit, they started observing. first they realised the diference between what you can see and what you cannot but that stil exists. then they started to realise what the main forces of nature are, the titans. Then they realised that are menings of higher form and the time of the gods appeared. What is remarkable in their honest effort of explaining the kosmos, they even thought that in the future as their knowledge increased, they may found out or realise the existence of thingd, meanings that they could not at the time.

Thats why they call nyx, nuxta (the night) all the things that are but we can not see. They even mentioned that zeus was praying to Nux in owe of its power. Later that became the unknown god.

That left space for the next important hellenic civilisation.

TEXT The classicalTEXT Here reason was the basis to solve problems. I will not expand too much here because most of you are familiar with its principles.

The last of the main hellenic civilisations Was the byzantine. I know that many will argue that it wasnt even hellenic but roman. My answer is that those civilisations were so intermixed and only the political situation was changing. Bysantine civilisation was as much roman as much roman was hellenic. When the last byzantine emperor visited venice, the people gathered in masses to take a glipse of him. He represented the wisdom and knowledge of hellas, rome and christianity together.

That these are the three main ones, there are also others . How many distinct civilisations china has to offer? (thats a question not a chiky remark. I am not an expert on chinise civilisation and any info would be appreciated)

Dudes, there is only one ancient civilization that survived the past and has the same impact on the world today and into the future.

Read Paul Kennedy's "Rise and Fall of Great Powers." Even in the middle 1800s, China had the world's largest economy and GDP.

Only between 1900 and 1970 did China's impact on the world lessened. But again it is rapdily moving up again. It will pass the US in total GDP by 2050 if not sooner.

So even if we accept that the ancient Greeks and Romans are the Greeks and Italians of today, there is still a massive mismatch between the power and potential of Greece and Italy and that of China.


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Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

Dudes, Rome>old China!

I think there is confusion between the term civilisation and power. There is not a doupt about china beeing a world power during time. That is not civilisation though. The mongolls were pwerful at a time , that didnt make them civilised though.

@Yu Fei

Nice Sig bro!

Good to see a compatriot of the east who admires the ancient westerners-my ancestors.

After Alexanders time the hellenic influence can be see as far as china with Budha statues of the period showing him dressed in ancient Greek clothing.

Amazing how the two opposing ideals were a melting pot in middle asia.

Thanks commrade, there is no doubt that hoplites were the most superior infantry ever existed, and training of Sparta is most effective.
I read "Gate's of Fire" and played Rome Total War, man I got totally hooked on Hoplite and Legion Cohorts.
It's kinda sad that many college has fraternity or so called "Greek" system without one of the most important core of Ancient Greece, the Citizen army of Hoplite. If I joined a Fraternity I will propose this, hell it might even spread across country, and there would be an anual hoplite competition with the best team titled "Hoplite of Sparta" then "Hoplite of Corinth" then "Hoplite of Thessaly" and so forth.

Dudes, Rome>old China!
I agree 100%, and it is true. Same can be said:
All ancient and contemprary Empires > old China (Persian, Greek, Roman, Turk)
But where are all the ancient empires now? so what can fill the blank
______>China?


--------------------------------------------

"Men grow tired of loving, singing, and dancing sooner than war" - Homer

Long live hoplites! The tireless warriors!

I think there is confusion between the term civilisation and power. There is not a doupt about china beeing a world power during time. That is not civilisation though. The mongolls were pwerful at a time , that didnt make them civilised though.

I don't see any confusion here. Are you implying there is no Chinese civilization? Don't tell me the Greeks civilized us, lol.
Grecko-Roman civilization certainly beat Chinese civilization in global influence and cultural significance in modern times, but anicent Rome > ancient China, I don't think so. They were comparable:

2,000 years ago, about one-half of the human species was contained within two political systems, the Roman empire in western Eurasia (centered on the Mediterranean Sea) and the Han empire in eastern Eurasia (centered on the great northern plain of China). At no time since has such a large proportion of humankind been ruled by two governments. Both empires were broadly comparable in terms of size (c. 4 million square kilometers each) and population (c. 60+ million each), and even largely coextensive in chronological terms (221 BC to 220 CE for the Qin/Han empire, c. 200 BC to 395 CE for the unified Roman empire). Both empires were the result of the gradual coalescing of a large number of smaller polities into a handful of large imperial states that were eventually unified by one of them.
http://www.stanford.edu/~scheidel/acme.htm


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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

The key is this:

China is eternal. It will also be the largest nation and civiliation on earth. It's been the same for the past 5000 years and will be the same for the rest of human history.

Its power and impact under the Han matched Rome when Rome was mighty and when Rome was gone, China was still mighty under the Tang. This cycle continues all the to the present. China is still a massive civilization and a major power.

China is eternal. China will remain China until the end of days. The same cannot be said of any other civilization on earth.


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Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

I would appreciate it a lot if people dont put words that i havent said in my mouth. I NEVER said that china didnt have a civilisation. quite the oposote i have a great repect forit. I also Never mentioned that greece civilized china.

What i said is that staying in time as amajor power, does not mean civilization.

Civilization is not about how powerful a nation is. Is about the positve contributions of that nation to humanity. THAT is a MAJOR difference.

I would appreciate it a lot if people dont put words that i havent said in my mouth. I NEVER said that china didnt have a civilisation. quite the oposote i have a great repect forit. I also Never mentioned that greece civilized china.

What i said is that staying in time as amajor power, does not mean civilization.

Civilization is not about how powerful a nation is. Is about the positve contributions of that nation to humanity. THAT is a MAJOR difference.

Sorry about that, your comparison with Mongols confused me. I believe what you are driving at is that:

"staying in time as a major power does not mean it is a GREAT civilization"

because China certainly is both a civilization and has staying power. I agree that a civilization should be measured by its cultural influence and contributions to mankind (in arts, inventions, mathematics, science, etc.) On that basis, I believe ancient China was among the greatest, but in the past 3-400 years, Grecko-Roman civilization has trumped all others in both culture and contributions.


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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

Quote: "but in the past 3-400 years, Grecko-Roman civilization has trumped all others in both culture and contributions."

Well, during the past 3-400 years, there was no Grecko-Roman civilization. There were only western civilization like Britain, Germany, France, Italy. You cannot count those as Grecko-Roman. They are different (and modern) civilizations that were once influenced by Grecko_Roman civilization. If you count in those, you will need to count in U.S. as well. It will become the whole western civilization (Europe + North America vs. China).

"When China awakes, the world will tremble."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Wudi no offence taken.it is nice when the conversation stays at a certain level.

Well western civilization is build on the principles of hellas and rome. The difference is that when power changes hand the new nation in power adds its own interpretation of those principles

Actually, the Western civilization we see today is mainly Germanic. There is very little Greco-Roman about it.

If it were "Greco-Roman" then Latin or Greek would remain the dominant language in Europe. It isn't. The language of commerce and politics is English.


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Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

Actually, the Western civilization we see today is mainly Germanic. There is very little Greco-Roman about it.

If it were "Greco-Roman" then Latin or Greek would remain the dominant language in Europe. It isn't. The language of commerce and politics is English.


And where does the majority of words in English come from.

Latin, Latin derived Greek, French derived Latin, Greek.

One of the greatest part of Chinese civilization is 'Cuisine'.

According to history record ,China has the longest culture of 'Cuisine'(ΦωΧβ-I am afraid if I use the right translated word ) in the world if we say the definition of 'Cuisine' as the meaning of 'having varieties of menus for one meal' ,to follow this meaning ,Korean culture came to have this 'cuisine' culture after middle part of 'Koryo dynasty'-i.e after 11st Century.

And China has the culture of 'banquet=ζΓόε ' from B.C years according to history record.
I bet probably its the longest too.

Please correct if you find wrong in my post.

Thank you.

http://www.greek-recipe.com/static/ancient/ancientrecipes.html
http://www.greek-recipe.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article282
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/vasard/uk1.html

There is no comparison to Chinese cuisine. LOL. Perhaps only Italian even comes close.

BTW, it's stupid to start including all the Germanic states like the US and UK in this discussion. If we are talk about ancient civilization then we should keep it between Chinese, Greeks, and Romans.

If you want a discussion between Western civilization and Eastern civilization then that is something else.




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Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

@Panda
"There is no comparison to Chinese cuisine. LOL. Perhaps only Italian even comes close."


Italian cuisine surpasses Chinese cuisine indefintely.


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

^How?

Dude, Italian cuisine is great and domonates 99% of the other cuisines in the world.

But compared to the Chinese (and there are MANY MANY different kinds of Chinese cuisines,) Italian is nowhere close.

Even the staple of Italian cuisine, pasta, is Chinese! Marco Polo had to bring noodles back to Italy from China. So what comparison? LOL

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Love is a Big Fat Cuddly Panda

Yeah that's true about noodles. Without it, there's no spaghetti.

It's interesting when the subject of Eastern and Western cuisines is brought up. One thing that's missing in the mention of Western cuisines is how much influence the discovery of the New World had on European cuisines. The point was brought up how the noodles for speghetti was brought by Marco Polo from China; yes, that's true; however, the tomatoes for the sause came from the tomatoe that was first used in Mexico. I believe the Spaniards first brought it to Europe.

So much of what is Western Cuisine really owes its existence to the New World. Chocolate, vanilla, potatoes, squash, tomatoes, peanuts, and corn (maize), all had its roots in the New World.

Milkman

@Panda
"Even the staple of Italian cuisine, pasta, is Chinese! Marco Polo had to bring noodles back to Italy from China. So what comparison? LOL"


The myth of pasta being brought to Italy by Marco Polo has long been debunked, nice try.

There is plenty of evidence suggesting that pasta in Italy has existed since the Roman era (and to some, since the Etruscan).


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

I'd like some link?^

Lol, stop bringing up that Marco polo bull, noodles were widespread in Europe and Middle East by then.

Still, there is no doubt noodles were first invented in China (at least as early as 2000 B.C. pre-dating Romans). Even the earliest recorded account of noodles belongs to China during the Han dynasty around 200 B.C. Just go on google and search earliest noodle for proof. However, whether Italians and Arabs discovered them from China or invented them separately is debatable.

A 4,000-year-old bowl of noodles unearthed in China is the earliest example ever found of one of the world's most popular foods, scientists reported today. It also suggests an Asian—not Italian—origin for the staple dish.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1012_051012_chinese_noodles.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9671263/

Hmm, all this talk about noodles is making me hungry

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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

However, Wudi, those kinds of noodles found in that area of China are not anything like what Italians and Chinese eat today (or even during the Roman and Han empires). The earliest type of noodles made of wheat is indeed from Italy.


Mmm, yesterday we went to a Chinese restaurant for Mother's Day. I had to watch myself though, better not eat too much.


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

I didn't waste my time reading all the posts and I'm not trying to flame.

Here is my reponse:

1) European powers controlled large parts of China, but the Chinese never controlled any part of Europe. This for me means alot.

2) Democracy came from Greece. And one day China will be a democracy.

So if your Chinese civilization is so superior, then why will it be adopting a political ideal invented in Greece?

Think about that one.

3) How many Chinese are there compared to Greeks? or Romans?

What we accomplished we did with a tiny populaton, which should mean something. Ancient Greece never had more than 1 million ppl and look at what came out of there. China always had a massive population.

4) So if you want to compare fairly (by the numbers) compare China against Europe (Greece, Italy/Rome, France, Spain, Portugal Britain etc), and I think it's clear who was/is/and will be superior in every regard.

Cheers.

It is clear who is superior from your post above, if you feel the need to use the WHOLE continent of europe to make a point about one country/civilization's "inferiority". "East vs West" or just one nation/civilization, you seem lost.

As for democracy...

"The earliest forms of democracy were used by republics in ancient India, which were established sometime before the 6th century BC, and prior to the birth of Buddha. [2] These republics were known as Maha Janapadas, and among these states, Vaishali, in what is now Bihar, India, was the world's first republic. Later during the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC, the Greeks wrote about the Sabarcae and Sambastai states in what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan, whose "form of government was democratic and not regal" according to Greek scholars at the time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#History_of_democracy

Modern democracy is not even comparable to the ancient ones.

Anyway, adopting new techniques and innovations etc.. among civilizations are the norm, Greece was definitely not excluded. It's like saying, if the west is superior, why did it need an eastern technology(gunpowder) to conquer the world. Pure rubbish.

Cyborg, you skipped something very interesting in that article:

"The term "democracy" in the original word in Ancient Greek - was coined in ancient Athens in the 5th century BC. Athenian democracy is generally seen as one of the earliest examples of a system corresponding to some of the modern notions of democratic rule. Only a sixth or a quarter of the whole adult male population of Athens could vote; but this was a bar of nationality, not of economic status: however poor they were, all Athenian citizens were free to vote and speak in the Assembly. Ancient Athenian citizens made decisions directly, rather than voting for representatives. This form of democracy that was present in Athens is known as direct democracy (or pure democracy)."


Regardless, it is unfair that you compare the Indian advent of democracy with Greece's, because Greece as a civilization developed after India.


La Repubblica Ragusana - La quinta repubblica marittrima!
Italia triumphs again!

"When valour takes the field, short will the conflict be; Barbarian rage shall yield the palm to Italy. The vital spark remains, and Roman blood still warms Italians' veins."
- Petrarch

Yeah, they invented the word, not democracy itself, lol, but like i said, modern democracy is not comparable to the ancient ones, like american type democracy is different to japanese type democracy etc...

Funny though that he had to drag different europeans to make a point. lol

1) European powers controlled large parts of China, but the Chinese never controlled any part of Europe. This for me means alot.

Woah slow down there, Europe is an ancient civilization? There's no doubt modern states in Europe and of European origins have been the most culturally and scientifically advanced for 300+ years, but we are dealing with ancient civilizations, ie Greeks, Romans, Celts, Vikings, etc...


Also, for the record, European powers did not control a LARGE part of China. Read up on the unequal treaties, China gave up a few ports cities along the coast, humilating but an occupation of an country as big as China by controlling what amounts to less than 1/50th of the territory? Here's port cities Europeans controlled (without Japan):

Portuguese: Macau
British: Hong Kong, Weihaiwei
German: Tsingtao, Shandong, Jiaozhou Bay
Russian: Harbin, Kwantung French
French: Concession in Shanghai, Concession in Guangzhou, Kwang-Chou-Wan
Italian: Tientsin
Spanish: Keelung (Taiwan), Tamsui (Taiwan)


Also, its funny how you brought this issue up. Ever heard of the Eight-Power Alliance, the eight world powers at the time ganging up with an combined force to attack one country, China (not to mention Japan and US are involved and aren't part of Europe). How brave and noble. Also, China is not a continent, if you must compare Europe the continent, at least compare with East Asia. Ever heard of the Mongol invasion, in which they successfully employed China siege technology and manpower to devastate Eastern Europe? Mongolia is part of East Asia, so if you want to make a fair comparison...


Not saying China > Grecko-Roman civilization or Grecko-Roman > China, just don't use modern notions of statehood or military conquest when evaluating ancient civilizations.


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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

OWNED

According to the definition you guys give to "older civilization", then the ants are the oldest one.


HAVE FUN !!!

Very funny.

According to the definition you guys give to "older civilization", then the ants are the oldest one.

That would probably be cockroaches.


We aren't the ones coming up with the definition. By the way, Egyptian and Indus civilization are all OLDER, but continuity is another matter. Go on google and search "oldest continuous civilization" and see what WESTERN opinions are. Go on scholar.google.com and search the same thing and find what historian think.


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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

"That would probably be cockroaches"

The ants are more advanced than roaches. They have farming and agriculture, as well as building domes and tunels. When needed they can build bridges and use leefs for crossing rivers, and much more.
They also organize conferences, and have a social structure involving a Queen.



HAVE FUN !!!

The ants are more advanced than roaches. They have farming and agriculture, as well as building domes and tunels. When needed they can build bridges and use leefs for crossing rivers, and much more.
They also organize conferences, and have a social structure involving a Queen.

Maybe true, but cockroaches hold the title as the oldest surviving species, clocking in at 350 million years. So they have more chance of building the longest continuous civilization. Besides, they are bigger

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#1 way to ascertain that you've lost an argument: Resorting to personal attacks.

"Maybe true, but cockroaches hold the title as the oldest surviving species, clocking in at 350 million years. So they have more chance of building the longest continuous civilization. Besides, they are bigger"

But roaches don't have civilization yet, like the ants do.
Ants don't care less for size. Plus they are thousand of times more than roaches.
In an event of a war, they will own the roaches arses.
Unless off course the roaches have nukes.




HAVE FUN !!!

People dont seem to reallise that hellenic civilisation does not start in the classic times. Before it there is the Myceneans, the Minoans, the Cyclades and the Pelasgians which go up to the 4th millenium bc.

Archeology has proven a continuous presence in hellas since the ice age.

Some time people have to understand that there is no 1 specific first civilisation. There were humans all over the world and each group made its contributions. What speeded up the process was the interaction between the groups and the exchange of ideas.

In the end of the day the great inventors do not belong to their country of origin, but to the country that realises and adopts their invention.

A lot of great artists and inventors exist around the world, but most of them end up in the US.

That is the reallity, the rest is just excuses for the rest of us to boost our ego

Too much to address here. But I would like to say one thing. If anyone thinks that the Hellenic culture or civilization is not "ancient enough" I would like to remind that the Hellenic Minoan civilization is over 5 thousand years old. It certainly IS ancient "enough".




http://kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/lambousa/