It is, actually, a question to everybody, but with special regards towards asian and middle-east members:
Duel, in western culture, has been a legal way to solve a problem between two persons for more than 2000 years (Celts did it, as well as the Germanic people of the great invasions: reported by many witnesses, among whom Cesar, Marius, Sidoine Apollinaire). With christianity, it was accustomed to a new formula: the Ordalie (judgement of God). The formula ended in 1385 in France (don't know about the rest of Europe) because of a little technical problem: the fact that the winner of an ordalie was soon after made out as guilty raised the question of God's real commitment in these ritualized killing.
For a while, it became the "judiciary duel", the last of which was displayed in 1547, under the king's judgement: the famous "Coup de Jarnac" (nameof one of the duellists) ended it.
After this one, the king's patronage disappeared, but the duellists didn't care much. Duel became illegal (many laws) but the duellists were often forgiven (nobility commands), and the "honour point" of the noble youth was extremely delicate (5000 deaths a year was the average in the XVIIth century in France) despite the laws and some exemplary executions of recidivist troublemakers.
It didn't stop after the Revolution and was still a custom before WWII, even among representatives and ministers.
The last duel in France occurred in 1967 between Gaston Defferre (well-known politician, former minister and mayor of Marseille).
What about other countries, and especially, other cultures, regarding this form (or similar ones) of ritualized violence?
Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!
"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne décroche jamais" (Maréchal Joffre)
In Germany (and Austria-Hungary) an officer who refused a duel got kicked out of the Army ! (For not showing the right attitude towards honor.)
("habe nicht das richtige Ehrgefühl und darum seine Pflicht als Offizier verletzt.“)
After 1871 a law against it was passed but was widely ignored ...
An article says that duels were very common and 25 % of the nobles did once in their live call for a duel. But it also says that many were fake or not meant to kill the other.
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A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !
Although dueling as such (with swords or pistols or any other weapons) was rare in South and Central Asia, as far as I know. another similar tradition used to exist.
Sometimes a King would ask the opposing side to send their best fighter to fight the best fighter of his own army and the result would settle the matter and no actual battle would take place.
In my area (a region where Central and South Asia meet) historically the method used would be wrestling, this was also a tradition noted in ancient Indian texts.
Calling a wrestling match to settle a dispute was also used in Central Asia.
The only event I can think of of an actual duel with weapons occuring was one between Sultan Selim of the Ottoman Empire and a massive Persian Warrior during an Ottoman campaign to retake Baghdad from the Safavids. The Sultan literally sliced the Persian in half.
"Who are the rulers of the lands beyond Guraiz and Burzil? The Darada Rajas."
The Rajatarangini
Defferre won against René Ribière (Gaulist representative; sorry, forgot it in my post)
@schlawa
Yes, in the french army too; duelling was kind of a French passion (extensive books have been written about it). But in the army, certain unwritten rules existed, that are quite well recalled in Ridley Scott's first movie "The duellists" (great one): you can't fight an officer of a different rank (bad for discipline), and you can't fight a duel during a war (the duel of nations has a priority). My grandfather's father was kicked out of the army after 1918 because of a duel with his colonel (he had slept with the colonel's wife).
In Germany, is there not a tradition in some universities fencing classes, that includes for the students to have sword scars on the face (Bismarck proudly showed is own)?
@darada raja
What you talk about is not exactly duel; well, in the way it goes (one to one combat), it does. But duel is more a judiciary, or civil way to settle an argument. When it includes sovereigns, it goes more in the spirit of a competition between champions, a joust, or an agreement over a limited way to end a war.
We also had those: joust between knights is well-known, and it was more of a sport, but there were also this kind of settlements for conflicts (even if they never ended any war).
For example, "le combat des trente" or "combat of the thirties" in 1351, during the Hundred Years War: to settle an everlasting local conflict, the two rival lords (one French, one English) agreed to fight a single combat, with thirty knights against thirty. We won. But such things were almost all the time just for show, to kill boredom or to satisfy a high testosterone rate.
The duel of champions was also a fashion: in 1503, a famous French Knight of the XVIth century, Bayard, won one against Alonso de Sotomayor (who was claimed as the best of the time), whom he killed. The year before, he had already won an eleven knight to eleven contest. And these were in times of war against the Spanish. Did it end anything? Nope.
So, duel is meant to end something, and it is an individual question; not a particular issu of a war.
Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!
"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne décroche jamais" (Maréchal Joffre)
He promised to be one of the greatest mathematician of all time. He was Republican and had hot temper and got an argument against a noble for a girl and had to fight a duel. He knew he had little chance in the duel, so he spent all night writing the mathematics which he didn't want to die with him, often writing "I have not time. I have not time." in the margins. He sent these results as well as the ones the Academy had lost to a friend , and, on May 30, 1832, went out to duel with pistols at 25 paces.
He was shot in the intestines, and died at the hospital refusing any cleric assistance.
He was Evarist Galois, he was 20 year old.
Galois' complete works fill only 60 pages, but he will be remembered.
"In all the history of science there is no completer example of the triumph of crass stupidity over untamable genius than is afforded by the all too brief life of Evariste Galois."
(E.T. Bell)
"This letter, if judged by the novelty and profundity of ideas it contains, is perhaps the most substantial piece of writing in the whole literature of mankind."
(Hermann Weyl)
"In Germany, is there not a tradition in some universities fencing classes, that includes for the students to have sword scars on the face (Bismarck proudly showed is own)?"
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Yes there is, its called "Schlagende Verbindung" (although there is no such thing on my University to my knowledge, (we do have a medieval sword fighting course though ) there are some Universities which keep it alive.
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A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !
He promised to be one of the greatest mathematician of all time. He was Republican and had hot temper and got an argument against a noble for a girl and had to fight a duel. He knew he had little chance in the duel, so he spent all night writing the mathematics which he didn't want to die with him, often writing "I have not time. I have not time." in the margins. He sent these results as well as the ones the Academy had lost to a friend , and, on May 30, 1832, went out to duel with pistols at 25 paces.
He was shot in the intestines, and died at the hospital refusing any cleric assistance.
He was Evarist Galois, he was 20 year old.
Galois' complete works fill only 60 pages, but he will be remembered.
"In all the history of science there is no completer example of the triumph of crass stupidity over untamable genius than is afforded by the all too brief life of Evariste Galois."
(E.T. Bell)
"This letter, if judged by the novelty and profundity of ideas it contains, is perhaps the most substantial piece of writing in the whole literature of mankind."
(Hermann Weyl)
That was a god damn tragedy;Galois was a such a genius: a sort of Isaac Newton.
-------------------------------------------- Pity is treason -Robespierre
This message has been edited by Eric_De_La_Legion on May 19, 2006 1:42 AM
- Russian poet Alexander Pouchkine (killed by a french officer named Edmond d'Anthès; Dumas remembered the name)
- Athos, the real person that inspired Alexandre Dumas (Armand de Sillègues d'Athos)
- Russian soldier and poet Mikhaïl Lermontov
- Victor Noir, french republican journalist (killed by a member of the Bonaparte family: 100 000 Parisians attended the funerals)
- The "duel des mignons": three favorites (and probably lovers for one or two of them) of French king Henri III against three of his cousin and ennemy, the duke of Guise: one survivor in each side. The loss? good commanders and fighters in a time of war.
Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!
"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne décroche jamais" (Maréchal Joffre)
- Russian poet Alexander Pouchkine (killed by a french officer named Edmond d'Anthès; Dumas remembered the name)
- Athos, the real person that inspired Alexandre Dumas (Armand de Sillègues d'Athos)
- Russian soldier and poet Mikhaïl Lermontov
- Victor Noir, french republican journalist (killed by a member of the Bonaparte family: 100 000 Parisians attended the funerals)
- The "duel des mignons": three favorites (and probably lovers for one or two of them) of French king Henri III against three of his cousin and ennemy, the duke of Guise: one survivor in each side. The loss? good commanders and
Now that's interesting. Also I knew D'Artagnan existed never knew about Athos. R.I.P to those brave, wish I could die in a duel or something. Pretty lame to die by accident or natural causes.
-------------------------------------------- Pity is treason -Robespierre
He promised to be one of the greatest mathematician of all time. He was Republican and had hot temper and got an argument against a noble for a girl and had to fight a duel. He knew he had little chance in the duel, so he spent all night writing the mathematics which he didn't want to die with him, often writing "I have not time. I have not time." in the margins. He sent these results as well as the ones the Academy had lost to a friend , and, on May 30, 1832, went out to duel with pistols at 25 paces.
He was shot in the intestines, and died at the hospital refusing any cleric assistance.
He was Evarist Galois, he was 20 year old.
Galois' complete works fill only 60 pages, but he will be remembered.
"In all the history of science there is no completer example of the triumph of crass stupidity over untamable genius than is afforded by the all too brief life of Evariste Galois."
(E.T. Bell)
"This letter, if judged by the novelty and profundity of ideas it contains, is perhaps the most substantial piece of writing in the whole literature of mankind."
(Hermann Weyl)
I never knew the reasons Galois died at age 20 but he could well have become someone like Gauss (best matematician to have ever lived imo, the guy proved almost everything that (especially)the algebra had troubles with)
Poor guy
Don't try this at home lads
"The enemy dies relaxed," observed a Lockheed Martin manager.
Yeah, Pascal (one of the greatest minds ever) was also lost for science (but not by duel) after getting totally bigot and declaring science irrelevent for God's ways.
Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!
"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne décroche jamais" (Maréchal Joffre)
@schlawa
"But it also says that many were fake or not meant to kill the other."
Yes, faked duels happened, but were rather rare:as it was a social requirement in upper society not to bear insult or disrespect (or, often, different points of view), an official provocation could not be denied. it didn't mean everybody had the nerve for it (death was a less frightening issue than a hideous scar, or a permanent mutilation: see the amputation at the end of "Barry Lyndon": not enthusiasting for young and proud men). In such cases, both men could agree to fight and vountarily miss each other (pistol), or to bear a small wound each (sword) and then call it a day.
But social pressure and the necessary presence of witnesses (two for each duellist) made it hard: six people for a secret is too much, as it is for an agreement on such a forfeit.
Death was not a necessity; most of the time, duels were to the first blood drawn (light or not). The insult had to be huge, or the issue big, to require death as the only satisfying issue for the offended part. Nevertheless, after 1900, pistols were used in 80% of the time: fatalities were more frequent with it.
Par St Michel vivent les Paras,
Pour que toujours vive la France...
Et pour qu'au nom de Dieu vive la Coloniale!
"Le fantassin se doit de calquer en tout son attitude sur le morpion, cet animal sublime qui meurt mais ne décroche jamais" (Maréchal Joffre)
) there are some Universities which keep it alive. 
