I am interested to know what Spain's political posture was during WW2, Franco had just come to power with the aid of the Axis military but maintained neutrality during the war. Was this because the Spanish despite being fascist had no stomach for the extremes of this political doctrine, that Franco needed a period of stability to consolidate his regime? Or was it because he didnt want to incur the wrath of the allies? Why did Hitler not invade Spain, surely removing gibraltar by advancing overland would have been a military goal but is Spain too difficult to operate in militarily in - as seen with the Peninsula campaign during the Napoleonic wars and didnt want to create a second front here (surely the UK would have invaded here if Spain was in the war?) Did Hitler try to get Franco on his side or the allies on theirs and how did Franco stay out? Quite interesting i thought.
Similar to Sweden... It was declared neutral but was clearly within the influence of the Axis Powers. Spain was too weak in every way to start a full blown war.. and even if they did indeed invade Southern France in aid... That would have been a token force that wouldn't have been able to help Germany in the East, or Italy in the Africa Campaign. I would assume the Axis Powers would have to equip the Spanish army any way, I mean they equipped them throughout the whole civil war.
Sweden was however bullied into sending aid to Germany, Spain was a more willing Aid magnet... It is documented that some supplies leaked into German and Italian hands... However otherwise, Spain sat quietly by.
Also, as you asked, Franco more then need to time to consolidate his power. The war was long, hard, and caused extensive damage to Spain's main cities. The people weren't willing to fight for Hitler's or Mussolini's causes (The Third Reich and New Rome respectively), and doing so would have no doubt caused a new guerrilla campaign by anti-fascists.
I think Franco's last thought was about allies wrath especially right after the fall of France (some 4 years after the civil war)... So rebuilding, consolidating would be the main purpose.
If I support Israeli's I'm an evil Zionist who loves killing, a product of propaganda and manipulation.
If I support the Palestinian's I'm a dirty Liberal with a self hating conscience that loves death, a product of propaganda and manipulation.
IIRC Franco presented a list of requirements to Hitler before he would enter the war formally. The list was so demanding and full of so many reconditions as to make Spanish entry almost imposable.
That’s not to say they did not get involved, the Abwehr were running around sothern Spain with the full support of the Spanish Government trying to target Gib. The fact that MI5 and MI6 had them fully penetrated during the war and used them to feed disinformation back to Berlin is ironic really.
There was also the Blue Division in the Soviet Union made up of fascist volunteers, some people have argued that Franco used them to get rid of zealots he did not want around though.
All in all we can say if it looked like the Germans were definably going to win Franco would have jumped in on the Axis side, however he was never 100% certain and played for time. He was certainly pro Axis
"The builders of this empire were not worthy of such an army. Two centuries of persecution could not wear out its patience; two centuries of thankless toil could not abate its ardour; two centuries of conquest could not awaken its insolence. Dutiful to its masters, merciful to its enemies, it clung steadfastly to its old, simple ideas - obedience, service, sacrifice." If anyone could do it, they wouldn't pay us so much.....
This message has been edited by drkstr on Jul 24, 2006 9:59 AM This message has been edited by drkstr on Jul 19, 2006 5:14 PM
Hitler tried to get Spain to give him access so that he could invade Gibraltar, but the Spanish made too big of a demand for the Germans to agree to (it dealt with naval guns IIRC). Why Hitler didn’t invade, I don’t know.
-The entire French African Empire
-Food aid
-All weapons to equip his army
-Industrial Machinery
He also said that Gibralter could only be taken by spanish troops. There was a german plot to assasinate him, but it petered out to no effect. There was also a plan for a german Air attack on Gibralter by the same specialists that had taken the Belgian forts, but it was posponed indefinately after The attack on Crete, and because of the need to divert all efforts to Barbarossa.
Thats quite demanding i suppose. Do you think Spain would have made much impact to the course of the war had he joined the Axis? If they needed that much support, food money and machinery would they have been more of a drain than a benefit?
he demanded full logistical support at a time when Germany was suffering sever shortages
Che Guevara:
A rather naive Marxist mass-murderer, who carried out Revolutionary "Justice" in Cuba, normally with a pistol to the temple. Drove Cuba's economy into the ground as its head by having a system where supply and demand did not dictate price, but the "social worth" of the item in question. Relished the idea of a global nuclear war between Socialism and Imperialism/Capitalism, and firmly believed that "The People" would be grateful for such a conflict. After falling out of favour in Cuba, he tried to sell himself as a wandering revolutionary in South America, so determined to "help the people" that he wasn't bothered with trifling little details about who they were and what they wanted (he tried to sell a communist revolution to Bolivian natives, who owned their own land and were perfectly happy and therefore told him to sod off). Ended up getting topped in Bolivia by CIA trained soldiers.
Che Guevara is idolised by all kinds of naive students and marxists who are more interested in the myths about the man than what he actually did
It would have been more of a drain giving that support, but the entry of Spain would capture Gibralter almost Automatically, and seal off the Medeterrianian (SP) from England, except for the long way. This would also cut off Britian from its Asian colonies, especially India. I am of the opinion that this would have allowed Rommel to take Suez, and the entire mideast with little effort, as there would be few ways for british supplies to get there, AND he would not have faced any of the supply shortages. From there Germany would have unlimited oil, and be able to attack Russia from the south. Basically I think Spain would have been a big help, simply because of its position. After it fuffilled its use, German troops could probably have just hijaked spain like they did to Italy in 1943.
Well i agree that the positioning of Spain would have been helpful to Germany in its Mediterranean options but with regards to supplying the British army in Egypt and empire farther East it would have made no difference. This is simply because all supplies and armaments went round the Cape anyway, the mediterranean was far too risky due to Axis airpower to have merchant shipping sailing through it. All trade went around South Africa. An example of why allied merchant shipping took the long route around can clearly be seen from the experience of Operation Pedestal to re-supply Malta when most of the ships that took part were sunk or damaged so had to retire. I also believe that the positioning of Spain could eventually have been damaging to Hitler, in a similar way that it was to Napoleon, i reckon it would have opened up a potential allied front there.
All in all, it wasn't worth it to the Germans to get the Spanish involved because it would have cost more money to prep a few thousand more men that had no will to fight their war. We all know how badly the Italians fought with their diminished forces (moral and equipment based).
Maybe if the Spanish soldiers fought under German command maybe, but not as a seperate force using German resources... that would have been pretty dumb.
On WAFF, I Have been called both an Anti-Semitic and Islamophobe... One contradicts the other in terms of politics.
All of the politically motivated Spanish that wanted to fight were already dooing so in the Blue Legion and Blue Squadron on the Eastern Front integrated into the German Command structure
Che Guevara:
A rather naive Marxist mass-murderer, who carried out Revolutionary "Justice" in Cuba, normally with a pistol to the temple. Drove Cuba's economy into the ground as its head by having a system where supply and demand did not dictate price, but the "social worth" of the item in question. Relished the idea of a global nuclear war between Socialism and Imperialism/Capitalism, and firmly believed that "The People" would be grateful for such a conflict. After falling out of favour in Cuba, he tried to sell himself as a wandering revolutionary in South America, so determined to "help the people" that he wasn't bothered with trifling little details about who they were and what they wanted (he tried to sell a communist revolution to Bolivian natives, who owned their own land and were perfectly happy and therefore told him to sod off). Ended up getting topped in Bolivia by CIA trained soldiers.
Che Guevara is idolised by all kinds of naive students and marxists who are more interested in the myths about the man than what he actually did
Even if the supply situation to Egypt was not altered by the fall of gibralter, it would place the entire western Medeterranian in the Axis Grasp, probably eliminating supply problems to the Axis forces in North Africa. With the supplies Rommel would undoubtedly emerge victorious. If he was victorious in the mideast there would be no danger to the Axis in Spain, because the Western Allies would be finished for awhile after that. I cannot remember who said it, but "the capture of suez would be more damaging to the British Empire than the fall of London".
If anyone could do it, they wouldn't pay us so much..... 
