1st of all to all those who are going to post here! These is a joint venture of ISTAMBUL SINCE 1453 & ME to start a descent,equal,respectable conversation on the Armenian/Turkish issue(title chosen by my Turksih friend). You are all free to talk about the mutual issues particularly the Armenian Genocide(i have no problem if you want to wirte other issues as well, as long as my Turkish colleague agrees with it). The rules are simple:
1.Talk only by bringing facts
2.Your opinion is very important to all of us no matter who you are.
3.Let's make this thread unique by never allowing any expressions of disrespect.
BEST REGARDS!!!

Let's start:

The issue of Armenian/Turkish "problems" can be simplified on 3 basic points:
1. The Armenian Genocide
2. Turkish Blockade of Armenia
3. Mutual misunderstanding
Upon my Turkish colleague's request im going to discuss the 1st issue with great debt then the other 2 point can be discussed later.
1. The main issue hindering the relationships between Armenia & Turkey today is the Issue of the Armenian Genocide. I want to make ceratin things clear. The genocide campaign started during 1915 and lasted till 1917..during this period of time over 1 million Armenians were perished by the "Young Turks" government. Children that were left orphans were send to special institutions(as Aintoura College in Lebanon) where they were given muslim names and undergone a Racial exchange in order to "Purify" the Turkish race. The Thriving Armenian community which by different sources was estimated between 1.2-2 million citizens was perished within 2 years in a racial extermination campaign. Today less than 50,000 Armenians live in Turkey.
When you look at the historic issue the Armenian Massacres actually had started back in 1860s...in 1878 in Treaty of Berlin signed by Sultan Abdul Hamid II...was mentioned that he would start a campaign of reforms to end the Armenian sufferings and stop the treatment of Armenians as second class citizens(Article 61). This is already enough fact to those who say that Armenians were very well treated in the empire.No they weren't if they were your sultan wouldn't vow to stop the aggression against Armenians back in 1878. in 1908 the Young Turks came to power, in 1909 the Massacres of Adana took place where over 30,000 Armenians were butchered...Arpil 24,1915..in a single night the Armenians leadership in Istamboul are arrested including Krikor Zohrab(Minister in the Turkish Parliament)..he was sent to Aleppo where he was killed.(Were talking about a person who's eleceted by the people). Hence starts the Armenian Genocide.
The Armenian men between the ages of 16-50 are called up tp the Army(total of 300,000). They are transfered to working batallions where they are literally worked to death..others are put in forward postions and in death squads..The Turkish interior ministry issues "Law & Political Measures"..by which the remaining Armenians were to be sent to Arabia under the reason to move them away from war zone...here 2 things whould be considered
1.Arabia was also a war zone and was suffering from starvation due to blockade by Allied Navy.
2.The young Turk government formed what is called CHETES..these were former convicts who were taken out of prison to escort Armenians into the Arabian deserts.(Good Security). As the 1st Armenian convoys start to arrive to the Syrian deserts acts of inhuman torture and massacres were reported. The convoys which had been exhausted by the long marches were gathered in groups & systematically exterminated.In one village in Syria (margadeh) 60,000 Armenians were massacred,woman were raped,Children were crusified. The 60,000 bodies were gathered up in a single place and burnt.Today after 91 years outside the village of Margadeh there is a small hill...when you move the sand you will have no difficulty finding remnants of Armenian victims. The Bedwins who live there can tell you all the stories thay have heard from their elders.
However Genocide is not based on stories The Young Turk government did its best to keep the issue as far away from the international eye as possible but the presence of Ambassadors,German officers(Turkey's Allies),Missionaries & other institutions made it possible to record the Genocide event by event & for this the Armenian,German,Swiss,French,Austrian,Russian, Arab,US,Italian,and every european archives contains its own small contribution in drawing the overall chain of events. In 2002 alone 17000 Articles and Archives were transfered from the German Archives to the Armenian government which includes testemonies,letters, & Telegrams from German officers to their government describing the horrible conditions of the Armenians..Henry Morganthau the US ambassador described it as Racial Extermination..However in the fog of war it was really difficult to take serious measures to stop this.
In 1948 the Genocide convention was established the author of the convention was asked about the definition. he said "I just described what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman empire"...However with research by their own historians one by one the European,American(continent) & other governments started to recoginze the genocide...inluding many institutions as the UN human rights commitee & THE LEAGUE of JEWISH HISTORIANS. So for the rest of the world Armenian Genocide started to become a fact...except for Turkey who kept avoiding the turth. However today an educated elite in Turkey has started a campaign to widen the knowledge of the Turkish people on this issue and a great progress has been seen over the last 2 years! This is a part of Turkish history that Turks need to know. Armenians do not hold today's Turkey responsible for these acts & look forward for a natural neighborly relationships with Turkey...but for its part Turkey has to start an own investigation and recognize what the rest of the world has already recoginzed decades ago.






AZERI BUTT KICKERS

First of all i’d like to thank you for the title. Secondly i have informed the mods to help keep this thread clean. Thirdly i am looking forward to the opinions of others but if someone doesn’t have something constructive to say, they shouldn’t say it all. The G/T forum is a flame heaven, if anyone wants to flame they can go there.

Back to the topic:

<<The issue of Armenian/Turkish "problems" can be simplified on 3 basic points:
1. The Armenian Genocide
2. Turkish Blockade of Armenia
3. Mutual misunderstanding >>

Hmm, we have a problem already . Turks believe ASALA terrorism(the killings of Turkish diplomats) and the Armenian invasion of Azerbaijan are very important problems in Armenian-Turkish relations. But we can return to them later.

You have stated what you believe happened. I’d like to go deeper into the issue. I don’t believe Turks woke up one day and decided to destroy the Armenian race. I believe it was war and 2 sides suffered, one maybe more then the other. I have made an Armenian-Turkish chronology myself to help me understand what lied deep beneath our problems

A summary of Turkish-Armenian history

1022 – 40 000 Armenians are forced to migrate to Anatolia after the Byzantine Empire takes over Armenia.

1046 – The Armenian dynasty is killed with the order of Constantine IX.

1054 – Armenians become autonomous under the ruling of Sultan Tuğrul Bey (Seljuks).

1098 – Armenians cooperate with the Crusaders.

1461 – Fatih Sultan Mehmet grants Ovakim (Hovakim) the Armenian Bishop of Bursa with the title Patriarch (Patriarchate in Istanbul).

1567 – The first Armenian printhouse is opened in Istanbul.

1790 – The first official Armenian school is opened in Istanbul.

1853 – The Armenian commision of education was formed.

1876 – Armenians become MP’s in the newly formed Parliament.

1878 – IMO, this is the year the problem begins or at least is classified as a problem internationally.

Article 16 of the Treaty of San Stefano, March 3, 1878

As the evacuation by the Russian troops of the territory which they occupy in Armenia, and which is to be restored to Turkey, might give rise to conflicts and complications detrimental to the maintenance of good relations between the two countries, the Sublime Porte engages to carry into effect, without further delay, the improvements and reforms demanded by local requirements in the provinces inhabited by the Armenians, and to guarantee their security from Kurds and Circassians.

Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin, signed on 13 July 1878

The Sublime Porte undertakes to carry out, without further delay, the amelioration and reforms demanded by local requirements in the provinces inhabited by the Armenians, and to guarantee their security against the Circassians and Kurds. It will make known periodically the steps taken to this effect to the Powers, who will superintend their application.


Since East Anatolia didn’t have a significant Turkish population at the time we can see the problem starts between Muslims(kurds & Circassians) and Armenians.

IMO 2 things started the Armenian problem;

1. Through-out the 19th century Circassians from the Caucasus and Muslims from the Balkans were forced to move to Anatolia(especially East Anatolia) due to the tension between Muslims and Orthodox Christians. These Muslims who had suffered cause of Christians elsewhere thought Armenians were no different and started spreading the word, ofcourse native Muslims(especially kurds) felt for there brothers and too started being hostile towards Armenians.

2. Russia wanted Armenians to break free from the Ottomans for her own agenda therefore started separatist movements and propaganda. Russia wanted to do in East Anatolia, what it had done in the Balkans; create religious tension, start a civil war and then via the Russian amry add the finishing touch. Ofcourse unlike the Balkan provinces, East Anatolia was mainly Muslim populated. This is the reason why Armenian attempt for independence didn’t end like Greek, Serb, Bulgarian or Romanian attempt for independence.

This is also near the date Armenian revolts start. The revolts usually end bloody for both sides. This is also when Armenian terrorism starts.

Chronology

1878 – March; The Treaty of San Stefano provides for protection and reforms for Armenians.
– April; The Armenian Patriarch sends a letter to Britain’s FM expressing that Armenians could no longer live together with Turks.
– July; The Treaty of San Stefano is replaced with the Treaty of Berlin.
– August; Britain’s FM expresses that the reforms should start.

1890 – Revolt of Erzurum
– First Sason Revolt

1892 – 1893 - Merzifon, Kayseri and Yozgat Revolts

1895 – May; Governments of six countries present Sultan Abdul Hamid II a special note demanding the Turkish government to carry out reforms for Armenians.
– August; Joint memorandum presented by Britain, France and Russia to the Sultan demaning him to proceed with the reforms. The Otoman goverment promises to carry out the reforms specified in Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin.

1896 – First Van Revolt
– Raid of the Ottoman Bank

1904 – Second Sason Revolt

1905 – Armenian terrorist attempt to assassinate Sultan Abdulhamid II in Yildiz Mosque.

1908 – Military coup in Salonica by the Young Turk movement (the Union and Progress Party). A brief period of collaboration among Turks, Armenians and other minorities begin.
– The Ottoman Constitution is proclaimed.

1909 – Revolt of Adana

1913 – Talat, Enver and Cemal take over the sublime porte after a coup.

1914 – WW1
– Thousands of Armenians have enrolled in the ranks of the Russian Caucasus army to fight against the Turks.

So till the start of WW1 Armenians are quite hostile towards Turks and we do see treason and betrayel. At this point how do you think any nation whose subjects are fighting against their own country on the side of the enemy respond? Also what kind of measures would you take to stop Armenian gangs from terrorizing the population?

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?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

It was armenia who started to slaughter turks from 1850 till the first world war. almost 500.000 turks died. then turks were angry and started to deportate armenians were 250.000 armenians died. and don't forget the genocide from armenians towards azeris in hodjali, ...

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DEVEYE DIKEN YUNAN SIKEN

malazgirt,

Şu söylediklerine kim inanır, kanıtın var mı?
Şurda adam gibi ülkemizin resmi tezini ve olanları ortaya koyuyorum sende gelip böyle yazınca kimse tartışmayı ciddiye almaz.
Gelip bir çuval inciri berbat ediyorsun...

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?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

sen salak misin? Biz bunlari kac kere denedik? kimsenin umrunda degil su gercegi iyi bil: Dunya turkleri barbar olarak goruyor ve bu degismez ( zamaninda osmanli cok, sokmus bunlara ) Dunyanin onde gelen tarihcileri bile soykirim yok diyor bkz: justin Mcarthy. ama kimin umrunda

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Hey there, well I have no problem discussing ASALA but let�s not widen the issues all of a sudden so we wouldn�t drift away�starting to talk about the genocide.
You mentioned a nice chronology I�m not going to counter it just want you to check certain things. Man be careful that from 1000-1300 there were 2 Armenian nations. Armenia Proper (extending from today�s Armenia to Lake Van & Drabizon in Turkey) & Kilikia (Today�s Iskandarun, Injirlik, Aintab..those Areas)..the 2 nations had nothing to do with each other. So some sources just mention �Armenians� without distinguishing between the 2 different states that existed. Ex. Armenians who helped Crusaders were the Rupinians(Kilikia)�which were located on the Mediterranean. Then you mention 1054 Armenians become autonomous under ruling sultan.Well not Kilikia it never entered the Suljuk rule.(and such things)
Then we never deny that during the most of Ottoman rule Armenians were living in best state. Sultan Mehmet 5 Fatih considered Armenians as best friends and gave them a type of freedom no one in history has given�but Armenians also GAINED the respect of the empire�they owned 62 of the 63 Ottoman banks and 83% of the overall capital of the empire�their wealth enriched the empire and their trade skills & loyalty is what made Ottoman sultans trust Armenians and give them the title of �Emirs�.
However, all this changed with the start of the Persian-Ottoman conflict Armenians were located in the middle they always suffered the worst�moreover with the beginning of the Russo-Ottoman wars Armenians found themselves fighting their brothers in the Russian army�remember that Eastern Armenia(Today�s Armenia) was never under ottoman rule it was either under Persian or Russian rule.
With the arrival of Sultan Abdul Hamid 2 (red sultan)�who�s crimes are known to the wide world not only to what he did to the Armenians but also to what he did to all those under his rule�Unlike prior sultans..Abdul hamid was the disaster of the Ottoman empire his corruption marked the beginning of the end�The empire started to loose lands everywhere! He countered this by lessening freedoms & the Armenian minority which was the heart of Ottoman empire all of a sudden found itself between 2 rocks. Abdul Hamid�s oppressions and local hostility from Kurds and many races brought from the Balkans and inhabited in Armenian areas. During this period Armenians lived a national revival..they started to revalue their culture and literature�this revival was seen by Abdul Hamid as an internal threat to be dealt with...he started by oppressing freedom of speech & closing down Armenian establishments & reached to the level of arming bandits, kurds, criminals, and any other lowlife you can think of to keep an �eye� on the Armenians�he raised taxes, and Armenians were started to be considered 2nd class citizens who were forbidden even to own a kitchen knife. As attacks from Kurdish tribes and bandits started to widen against Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, & without proper protection from the government, I think it would be fair for any people to start revolting against such treatment.
2. I don�t agree with the saying that Russia wanted Armenians to break free of the empire�Russia actually wanted to end what was called the Ottoman empire�it wanted to destroy it�not for the sake of Armenians but Russia always aspired to reach the �Warm Waters�(Mediterranean sea) that�s why it engaged in the Russo-Ottoman wars�.& NO this wasn�t the date the Revolts started�Russo-Ottoman wars date back to 1828-1829 during this time there weren�t any so called revolts neither any oppressions against Armenians.
Now, I want you too take a good look at the CHRONOLOGY that you have stated.
1878 San Stefano & Berlin (2 Treaties with a difference of few months stating the protection of Armenians).
1890��Revolt� of Erzrum!! There is a period of 12 years between the San Stefano & the Revolt�Why wasn�t the ottoman empire able to secure the safety of its Armenian citizens during this period?...believe me when I say that the kurds were largely supported by the gov�t�moreover Ottoman sultans in the past never made the mistake Abdul Hamid II did�Eastern Anatolia was Armenians homeland they have lived there for centuries..when a gov�t brings people from the balkans and start repopulating them in Armenian areas and these people start to become hostile toward the Armenians who should have been �equal citizens� and the gov�t doesn�t take any measures to stop this hostility for years and years�than either it doesn�t know how to govern or it�s looking for trouble�
Now let me give you the counter Chronology which would clear out many things:
This is the chronology till WWI.
1875 December 1: By order of the Turkish government, the Armenian market district at Van is destroyed by fire with great loss to Armenian property, goods, and businesses.
1878: Russia victorious in Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878. Russo-Turkish Treaty of San Stefano (February 19, 1878) provides for protection and reforms for Armenians. Great Britain negotiates a secret Cyprus Convention with Turkey (June 1878) to allow British to establish bases on Cyprus and to administer Cyprus. In return, Britain insists Russo-Turkish issues be decided, instead, by an international conference. The resulting Congress of Berlin (June 1878) replaces the protective measures of San Stefano under Article 16 with unsatisfactory and ineffective provisions for Armenian people under Article 61, and returns Garin (Erzerum) to Turkey. Russia retains Kars and Ardahan.
1879: Armenian performances are forbidden in Constantinople. The urban Armenian population of Garin and Arabkir come out against the government.
1880 August: By special order of the Turkish government, the word "Armenia" is forbidden for use in official documents.
1884 June: Armenians "rebel" in Zeitun against oppressive Turkish taxes
1886 : The Turkish government divides Western Armenia administratively into separate vilayets of Erzerum, Garin, Kharput, Diarbekir, Dersim, Bitlis (Baghesh), Van, Hekyari and Sivas (Sebastia).
1888 : The Turkish government orders that all Armenian periodicals and magazines in Constantinople and Western Armenia be discontinued.
1890 June 15: An Armenian demonstration in the district of Gum-Gapu in Constantinople is drowned in Armenian blood.
1890 June 18-20: Alleging provocative actions by Armenians, Turkish armed forces and Turkish mobs attack Armenians in Garin (Erzerum). Hundreds of Armenians are killed.
1891 January : The Armenians of Vardenis in Taron are robbed by Turks and their village is destroyed.
1893 : Sultan Abdul Hamid II, known as the Bloody Sultan, suspends the Armenian National Constitution, and also discontinues the national parliament in Constantinople, which includes some Armenian representatives.
1894 August 20-27 : Sassun�s Gelie-guzan village massacre, known as the "Gelie-guzan Hole Carnage" takes place. Here, Turks inaugurate the system of slaughtering unarmed people, which later was the prototype for Hitler�s concentration camps.
1894 August 25-30: Sassun�s Gebin Mount carnage is inflicted when the Turkish army manages to force Armenian women, children and old men to leave Andok for the forest on the bottom of mountain. The army ignites the forest and burns the Armenians alive. Note: This is a harbinger of the extermination of future victims by burning them alive in stables and other large storage facilities.
1894 August: 10,000 Armenians are killed and 74 Armenian villages are destroyed in Sassun.
1895 May 11: Governments of six countries present the Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II a special note describing the disastrous conditions of Armenians and demand the Turkish government to carry out improvements.
1895 August: Joint memorandum presented by Britain, France and Russia to the Sultan, pointing out the disastrous situation in the Armenian provinces and urging him to proceed with the reforms. The Imperial Turkish Government replies in August 1895 and promises to carry out the reforms specified in Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin (1978).
1895 September 30: Carnage of Armenians in Baberd at the hands of the Turks.
1895 September 30, October: In the Bab Ali section of Constantinople, Armenians carry out a peaceful demonstration. The Turks set upon killing Armenians. 2000 Armenians die. Protests by the Great Powers by joint note from three ambassadors (French, British and Russian) on October 13-15 demand reforms. On October 31 a decree is issued, providing for reforms.
1895 October 5: Mass obliteration of Armenians takes place in Trebizond and its villages. Armenians of Sassun share the same fate.
1895 October 7: Armenians of Derjan province are slaughtered by the Turks.
1895 October 8: Massacres of Armenians by Turks begin in the vilayet of Trebizond as confirmed by the report of Gillieres, the French Consul in Trebizond.
1895 October 9: The carnage of Armenians at Erzingan and Kamakh by the Turks.
1895 October 10: In Kghi province more than 1000 Armenians are killed, and dozens of villages destroyed. In Bitlis, 102 villages are destroyed. On the same day the carnage of Armenians at Charsanjak and in its villages begins, taking almost 700 lives. In Balu, the body count of Armenian victims reaches 1200, Arabkir � 2800, Torgom � 500
1895 October 27-28: Massacres in Urfa, vilayet of Aleppo, the first by the Hamidie Kurdish regiments organized by the Turks for this purpose, confirmed by the report of the British consul, Fitzmaurice, dated March 16, 1896.
1895 December 28: A battalion of Turkish-led Hamidie forces, proceeding from Aleppo, encircles the town of Urfa. Massacres on the following day kill 8,000 Armenians. This is confirmed by the above-mentioned report of the British consul, Fitzmaurice, dated March 16, 1896, as well as by the French consul.
Global Estimates: Most of the figures mentioned through 1895 come to a total of 150,000 dead, to which must be added some 150,000 forced conversions and some 100,000 emigrants forced to flee. The report written by the agents of the European Powers estimate 28,000 killed just in the localities where representatives of foreign nations were present.
1896 August 28: Representatives of the Great Powers send a telegram of protest to the Ottoman authorities
1896 September 2: Armenian population of Agn is destroyed. Half the houses in the city are burned. Joint verbal note of protest issued by the Great Powers, accusing the Sublime Porte directly.
Believe me I excluded many events cause I just started feeling sick�you can look at ALL the massacres yourself at the site� http://www.armenocide.am/gen_chronology.htm ...Y�know what i think the problem in Turkey today is? They give you the history lessons but excluding whatever the Ottoman empire did to the Armenians�you see that the dates we both specify are the same..i agree with the dates you gave as �Revolts��but what happened between 1 revolt and the other that�s what you need to find out�why did the Armenians revolt? For the sake of Russia? That�s very far away from the truth�and the good thing is that all these dates and massacres are still preserved in the Archives of European governments which during 1800s were good friends of the Ottomans..after all they were the one�s that kept Russian forces from eliminating the empire�what Turkey needs to do today is widen its research�you do agree with me if I say that Turkey doesn�t have a serious research about this issue as Armenia has and Armenia in its part has encouraged nations to check the issue with their own historians who have proved based on their own researches and archives that Genocide and massacres prior to the genocide have happened. No parliament in Europe recognized the Armenian genocide without researching it first. i'm sure you can reach the same result by doing your own researches even outside the ottoman archives. (or whatever�s left of them). I want you to understand that we don�t hold present Turkey responsible for these acts...we know that Mustafa Kemal was a great leader who created a nation based on highest human values..not to forget that it was he who said:�
"These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule."









AZERI BUTT KICKERS

You have only mentioned what happened to Armenians in the revolt, you haven’t mentioned what Armenians did in the revolts. You can’t study history by just looking at the doings of one side.

THE FIRST SASUN REVOLT

English Consul to Van City, Holward wanted to go to Sasun for investigation; but since the government considered him as the provocative of the revolt, he was not allowed to. After very long correspondences. The Ottoman Goverment accepted the request that the consuls situated in Erzurum, namely France, Britain and Russia participated to the Ottoman research commission. The commission made investigation for six months, from 4 January to 21 July 1895, and held 108 meetings, and listened to more than 190 witnesses. :Ömer Bey from the committee was appointed for the post of Vice Governor of Bitlis. So he had to leave the commission on 29 January. On 23 August Murad, the leader of the revolt, was arrested.

It would be sufficient to read the article published in the American newspaper, New York Herald which can not be accused of not being neutral concerning how the incident took place.

“The European investigation showed that the Armenians revolted with the assistance of the provocateurs who came from foreign countries. The rebels did everything with the modern weapons. In addition to arson, murder and the pillage, they revolted against the regular soldiers and resisted them and than they retreated to the mountains. The interrogation committee established that by sending soldiers against the rebels, the Ottoman government used its most legal right. These soldiers were able to defeat these rebels only after bloody fights. About 3 thousand fully armed rebels, who sheltered in the mountains, could not be defeated by convincing words, and articles in the newspapers.

3000 Armenians gathered in Mount Anduk. 500-600 of them wanted to besiege Mus district. With this objective, they attacked the Delican tribe in the south of Mus. They killed some of them and pillaged their properties. The belief of the Muslims, whom they caught, was despised and the Muslims were killed violently. These rebels attacked at the regular soldiers near Mus, too. However, because of the great number of the soldiers there, they could not occupy Mus district.

The rebels organized the gangs with the ones in Mount Anduk. These gangs committed awful murders and plundered. They burned the nephew of Ömer Agha alive. They raped the Muslim women in the region, which was three-four hours far from to Gulli Guzat village and strangled.

They picked out the eyes and cut the ears of most of the Muslims. The Muslims were insulted severely and shamefully and were forced to be converted to Christianity and to kiss the Cross.

Towards the end of August, the Armenians attacked the Kurdish people near Mus and burnt the Gülli Güzat village. As to the 3000 Armenian rebels in Talori, after terrorising and making the Muslims and the Christians mourn, they refused to abandon their weapons and continued to pillage and murder. Then army soldiers were sent to these places to prevent these atrocities.

Hamparsun, who was one of the rebels, escaped to the high mountains with eleven accomplices. He was caught alive. Nevertheless two men of his men were killed and six of them were wounded. At the end of August all of the rebellion gangs were dispersed.

The Turks treated the women, children, old people, the disabled in accordance with the Islamic and humanistic norms. The rebels, who died, were the ones who refused to surrender and preferred to fight against the legal sovereignty.

THE ZEYTUN REVOLT

Armenian gangs surrounded the barracks and the government office, took prisoner the district Governor, 50 officers, 600 soldiers and commanders.
Later the prisoners were killed.

The Hinchak gangs left Zeytun under the protection of the British Embassy and they departed from Mersin to Marseilles on 12 March 1986.

THE VAN REVOLT

General Mayewski, who was the Russian Ambassador for City of Van, for 6 years, and later appointed for Erzurum, explains as follows:

“In 1895, the rebels of Van exerted great efforts in order to attract the great attention of Europe to the Armenian question. Through the death threats, they sent letters to the rich Armenians for the pecuniary support. During this time, by the decision of Van revolution committee, some political murders were committed. One of the most important murders, took place on 6 January 1895, the most important Armenian Feast day; the murder of the Priest Bogos, who was going to the church for the sacred rite. (...) As from the spring the revolutionary preparations started. The people were talking about the corpses, which were cut in to pieces nearby the province. As the revolutionists saw that no prosecution took place, they became more and more encouraged. Besides this, as the Armenians were encouraged, the Muslims were expiring their patience.”

The British Ambassador Williams were foresighted as well and he writes the following:

“There are 400 members of Tashnaks in Van. They are terrorising their own co-religionists and they are provoking Muslim people by committing violent and bloody crimes acts together with the Hinchaks, whom I suppose not more than 50. They do not allow the reforms to be realised. I am sure that if those can be suppressed, the obstacle, hindering the security of the region will be eliminated.”

THE SECOND SASUN REVOLT

According to the book, “Antranik Wars” written by K. Küdülyan in Armenian and published in Beirut in 1929, during the fights on 14, 16, 22 April; 2 May; 17 July, in total 932-1132 Turks but only 19 Armenians were killed.

THE YILDIZ ASSASSINATION

The last initiative of the Tashnaks is the assassination of Abdülhamid. Papazian confirms this accordingly: “The assault against Sultan Abdülhamid’s life was the last try of the Tashnaks for the revolution on behalf of the Turkish Armenians. That was one of the splendid but useless initiative of Tashnaksutyun. Its success would not have contributed to the Armenian problem. Its failure saved our people from a great catastrophe.”




So far ;

-Armenians have kidnapped and killed a Turkish governor, 50 officers, 600 soldiers and commanders.
NOTE: Israel has invaded a sovereign country and killed a significant civilian population cause 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. This is the respond nations give to kidnapping of state officials in the 21st century.

-Armenians have attempted to assassinate the Ottoman Sultan.
NOTE: WW1 started cause a Serb assassinated the Archduke of Austria. This the respond given to the assassination of head of state.

-Armenians have terrorized the population killing ten thousands of innocent people for decades.
NOTE: The USA has invaded 2 sovereign countries and killed some hundred thousand civilians in return to a single terrorist attack which killed some 3000 people. This is the respond nations give to terrorism in the 21st century.




The Ottoman Empire did not take any of the measures Western, democratic states took in the 20th and 21st century to similar attacks. So we can say the Ottoman Empire has been very very tolerant towards Armenians even for 21st century standards.

Unless you can show me examples of nations responding in a different way to terrorism & treason we can both agree the measures the Ottoman Empire took are very light for even 21st century standards yet 19th century standards.


If you too can agree, lets move onto WW1.

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?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

ps i am disgusted by the fact so many people died during the revolts on both sides but through-out history revolts have been bloody...

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?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Dear colleague, the series of Abdul Hamid era massacres was launched with the 1894 Sassoun massacres. Armenian peasants refused to pay the Kurdish incremental taxes, a double taxation system imposed on the Armenians by Kurdish chieftains. In 1892, the governor of Mus district in Bitlis province (of which Sassoun was a county) ENCOURAGED an Armenian resistance claiming that the Armenians: �Couldn't serve two masters at the same time.�
After the resistance of Sassoun, its governor responded by inciting the local Muslims against the Armenians. Abdul Hamid, in answer, decided to send an army and so he armed groups of Kurdish insurrectionists. The historian Osman Nuri, in the second volume of his three-volume biography of Abdul Hamid, accused Sultans military contingent of �torching and killing many people.� The Eastern zone, and many Armenian populated areas, were affected.
Now, �Since Armenians refused to pay Kurdish Incremental taxes!� Can you believe Armenians had to pay Kurds Taxes other than the Tax they used to pay to the government????? You think it�s logical??? Doesn�t that give you the right to rebel against such oppression?). Armenians at 1st started defending themselves but the Kurds were reinforced by the Regular Turkish Troops! Do you think any Armenian from that point on would ever trust their government? The involvement of Turkish regular troops is recorded in the British Archives. The scene ended by thousands of Armenians being killed. The incident resulted in strong Armenian protests against the sultan's brutal policies and European interventions to quell further disturbances by persuading the Ottoman government to adopt reforms for the Armenian-populated provinces. The police responded to a demonstration held in Constantinople in September 1895 by Armenian political organizations which sought to pressure the government and the European Powers to implement the promised administrative reforms by letting loose a massacre in the capital city. Thereupon, beginning without provocation in the city of Trebizond on the Black Sea, and in a pattern indicating a premeditated plan, a series of massacres spread south through nearly every major Armenian-inhabited town of the empire. It culminated in the single worst atrocity in those months with the burning of the Armenian cathedral of Urfa (ancient Edessa) within whose walls some 3,000 Armenians had taken refuge during the siege of their neighborhood.(BURNT ALIVE) To a last desperate attempt by Armenian revolutionaries to draw the attention of the world by seizing in Constantinople the European-owned Ottoman Bank in August 1896, the government responded by unleashing wholesale reprisals during which five to six thousand Armenians were killed in the space of three days within sight of the European embassies.
The so called Article that appeared in the New York Herald I�m sure you brought it from a site called �Tall Armenian Tale��which is full of lies and inaccurate records. Moreover�I would like to see the full article in its original form if you can supply it because I will in the coming days start to present original papers.
Now I�m not going to tell you that Armenians were saints and didn�t kill anybody but when the Ottoman government plays a role in massacring them and sends its regular troops to aid bandits and burn villages I think that it�s a divine right for any nation to defend itself.
When you talk about Yildez bombing in which the Sultan was to be killed�the Young Turks which were the greatest allies of the Tashnak party had a great role in the preparations. Turks were wanting the Sultans death as much as Armenians�& Armenians played a big role in overthrowing the Sultan & establishing the Ottoman Constitution. If Armenians only hated and murdered Turks they wouldn�t have supported the young Turks and done their �Dirty Job� of trying to kill the Sultan.

Moreover here are some straight facts:
1.The British ethnographer William Ramsay, who visited the Ottoman empire for his own studies, estimated that from 1894 to 1897, 200,000 Armenians fell victim of those massacres.
2.Emperor William II, who estimated that up to December 20, 1895, 80,000 Armenians were killed.
3.The British Ambassador White, based on the data submitted to him by British consuls, estimated that up to early December 1895, 100,000 Armenians were killed
4.German Foreign ministry operative and Turkophile author, E. Jackh, estimated (by including the 1896 massacres) that 200,000 Armenians were killed, 50,000 expelled and one million pillaged and plundered
5.French historian, Pierre Renouvin, the President of the Commission in charge of assembling and classifying French diplomatic documents, in a postwar volume, based on authenticated documents, provided 250,000 as being the total number of Armenians killed. Armenian estimates run from 250,000 as high as 350,000.

@malazgirt...I would like to discuss with you the issue of Khojali once we finish discussing this...cause i cannot answer all issues at once y'know i have alife to live...i don't want to spend all my time in front of the PC!!!







AZERI BUTT KICKERS

Bad politics. It is not neccesarily the Turkish people but Turkish authorities that called for the attrocities. Armenians and Turks have lived side by side peacefully, we've always contributed to the Ottoman Empire (and all other respected empires we've resided in). However, the crushing of revolts by Ottoman authorities and the revolt by Armenian subjects to my understanding is a bit different than the organized Genocide imposed by the Young Turks.

On a more personal level..Malazgirt...i understand Turkish so i wouldn;t appreciate you both Talking with each other in turkish...moreover i don't appreciate the sentence:"sen salak misin?"..."zamaninda osmanli cok, sokmus bunlara"...such expressions are unacceptable!!!You just made your thesis much difficult to defend by saying this...
BTW You know very well that majority of Historians accept what happened as Genocide..while Turkey claims that all those historians are bribed by the diaspora...on the other hand few aret he historian that actually don't except the Genocide as Justin McArthy who was actually was said to be bribed by American historians(not by Armenians)...anyway...maybe you don't believe to the researches of Zorian institute but i highly doubt that LEAGUE OF JEWISH HISTORIANS, UN HUMAN RIGHTS COMITTEE & its historians...(and many many European historians whose researches have brought to the acknowledgement of Genocide by tens of parliaments around the world...are paid)..are also bribed by the Armenian diaspora...






AZERI BUTT KICKERS

Hi to all I'm new in this forum I hope we'll have inteligent and constructive dicussion over here. I like the rules and i will do my best to follow them all and i expect others to do the same.

so let me star my points:
"1022 � 40 000 Armenians are forced to migrate to Anatolia after the Byzantine Empire takes over Armenia."
First of all if you are trying to say that Armenians migrated to Eastern "Anatolia" in 1022 you are hugely mistaken Armenians used to live in those lands for more than 2000 years those lands were known as "Haygagan Ashkharh" meaning "ArmenianWorld" far before it was called "Anatolia" the only part that Armenians were migrated to was Cilicia and it was after the Pakradounian Dynasty. More over at that time Asia was part of Byzantine Empire it wasn't Anatolia my point is that even in Cilicia Armenians came before the Turks. And by the way not all of Armenians were "forced Migrated" by Byzantine Empire many migrated because of the devastating invations of the Seljuks (which amazinly isn't mentioned in that chronology of yours)

1054 � Armenians become autonomous under the ruling of Sultan Tuğrul Bey (Seljuks).
I donno about which Armenia are you talking about if you are talking about Cilicia it was under the Greek rule that took independence and Armenians formed a kingdom there coz they were prdominent.

"1461 � Fatih Sultan Mehmet grants Ovakim (Hovakim) the Armenian Bishop of Bursa with the title Patriarch (Patriarchate in Istanbul)."
FYI in the year 1461 there were 2 catholicosates for the Armenians one in Ech Miyadzin and the other in Cilicia now why did Fatih Sultan "grant" Hovagim Bishop the tilttle Patriarch in Itanbul? Isn't it because if the Patriarch would be closer to him he would have more control over him or poor Armenians they don't have any religious leaders so let's give them one.

"1567 � The first Armenian printhouse is opened in Istanbul.
1790 � The first official Armenian school is opened in Istanbul.
1853 � The Armenian commision of education was formed."

By the way in the mean time do you know what was happening in the Armenian provinces? Have you heard of Armenians paying hight taxes even higher than Turks? ever heard of Armenian villiges being raded and invaded by bandits and even by Ottoman soldiers and Armenian properties were being abused not to say Armenian women also being abused Armenian children being taken away and yet Armenians can do nothing. Ever heard of the term "Yenicheri" this are soldiers in the Ottoman Empire they are part of the orgnized army they are made of abducted Armenian children who after being abducted are raised as extreme Muliem-Turks and trained very well and turned into fighting machines.
Let me add some dates in that chrenology of yours
An Ottoman Historian from 16th century named Pechevi Ibrahim talks about the invation of Sultan Souleyman Ganouni (1551-1554) how great were the villages and cities how cultivated was the land he talks about how beautiful was Yerevan and how the Ottomans burned and distroyed the city and took thausands of womwen as hostages with them and they moved toward Nakhichevan and Zankezour and also talks about how they robed everything in their reach.
Intelectuals from 15th century such as: Douk, Frandouin, Khalkhogondil have always brought up in there writings how Ottomans used to try to force people ( Armenians Balkanians,...) and many others to make them turks.According to Armenian historian Kersam Aharonian Armenian population from the beginning of the Sljuks invation and till the beginning of the 20th century have decreased to half why is that?

"Since East Anatolia didn�t have a significant Turkish population at the time we can see the problem starts between Muslims(kurds & Circassians) and Armenians."
Even if what you say is true and the problem was between Armenians and non Turk Mulems where was the government now don't tell me about "the sick man" and stuff coz if the government wasn't capable why was nonArmenians allowed to have weapons and to Armenians even knives weren't allowed. either disallow for both or allow both.

"Through-out the 19th century Circassians from the Caucasus and Muslims from the Balkans were forced to move to Anatolia(especially East Anatolia) due to the tension between Muslims and Orthodox Christians."
can you tell me who forced them to move to Anatolia and if their was tensions beween Muslems and Christians elswere Armenians weren't christians these tensions weren't going to happen with them yeah? and if it was these nonturk muslems that you claim were the reason of all Armenian losses and treagedy why didn't the govenment help the Armenians every massacure that you have done agains Armenians you say Armenians revolted, first of all it isn't revolt you sad it your self if someone comes into your home and starts to kill you have no choice but to DEFEND YOURSELF so the revolt thing is out of the question. and moreover why is that all of the massacures happened to Armenians and the others who caused the tension in the first place weren't punished?

About Russia first of all Russia didn't want Armenia to break free from the Ottoman Empire they wanted to conqure those lands in order to reach to the warm shores of the mediterreanian.
"Russia wanted to do in East Anatolia, what it had done in the Balkans; create religious tension, start a civil war and then via the Russian amry add the finishing touch."
wait a minute now i'm confused weren't you the one who said that the religious tension came when
"Circassians from the Caucasus and Muslims from the Balkans were forced to move to Anatolia(especially East Anatolia)" so make up your mind who sarted the tensions?
You say that East Anatolia was mainly Muslem populated if this is true i want to ask you why is that the Armenians who have been living in those lands for 3000 years had less population than Turks and Kurds who have been living there for only 7or 8 hundred years?

I already talked about the revolt think i just wanna add if in fact in the massacures of 1894-96 and Adana 1909 were just to stop these "revolts" WHY IS THAT WOMEN CHILDREN AND THE ELDERLY ALSO WERE BUCHERED. 300,000 (from which 8000 were slaugtered in the street of Istanbul) have been massacured in 1894-96 and 30000 in Adana 1909 all of them were bloody revolts?

"1908 � Military coup in Salonica by the Young Turk movement (the Union and Progress Party). A brief period of collaboration among Turks, Armenians and other minorities begin."
A BRIEF PERIOD OF COLLABORATION? come on Armenians were convinced that Young Turks were their saviors from Abdul Hamid. Armenians Especially Tashnaks stood with the Young Turks. Krikor Zohrab have hidden Talat in his own home and this is brief collaboration.

"1914 � WW1
� Thousands of Armenians have enrolled in the ranks of the Russian Caucasus army to fight against the Turks."
Great point here first of all remember that there were Armenians in the east that were Russian citizens so they had to. As i said before Armenians supported the Young Turks they had blind faith in them too (especially Tashnaks). So Armenians who didn't trust Turks because of the history between them crossed the border and joined the russian forces NO REVOLUTION TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT FROM WITHIN WAS PLANNED NOR HAPPENED. People who trusted the government they were with the government people who didn't trust the government they went to join the russian Army.

"So till the start of WW1 Armenians are quite hostile towards Turks and we do see treason and betrayel. At this point how do you think any nation whose subjects are fighting against their own country on the side of the enemy respond? Also what kind of measures would you take to stop Armenian gangs from terrorizing the population?"

As i said above the main hostility came from the Turks who came to Armenia they conqured it and with there presence came the blackest lines and pages of Armenians, Balkanians, Asyrians, Arabs....etc. history. Moreover i would like to add even though Armenians have seen nothing but death from Turks for centuries Armenians in 1908 were convinced that these young Turks who have been Educated in Europe and preached brotherhood, equality and freedom joint forces with them and helped them but just to be BETRAYED AND STABED IN THE BACK by the act of GENOCIDE. As for the so called "Armenian Gangs" it is a wide issue i know we'll have time in the future to talk about it my post is long enough.

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

Quote: Dear colleague, the series of Abdul Hamid era massacres was launched with the 1894 Sassoun massacres. Armenian peasants refused to pay the Kurdish incremental taxes, a double taxation system imposed on the Armenians by Kurdish chieftains. In 1892, the governor of Mus district in Bitlis province (of which Sassoun was a county) ENCOURAGED an Armenian resistance claiming that the Armenians: ?Couldn't serve two masters at the same time.? After the resistance of Sassoun, its governor responded by inciting the local Muslims against the Armenians. Abdul Hamid, in answer, decided to send an army and so he armed groups of Kurdish insurrectionists. The historian Osman Nuri, in the second volume of his three-volume biography of Abdul Hamid, accused Sultans military contingent of ?torching and killing many people.? The Eastern zone, and many Armenian populated areas, were affected. Now, ?Since Armenians refused to pay Kurdish Incremental taxes!? Can you believe Armenians had to pay Kurds Taxes other than the Tax they used to pay to the government????? You think it?s logical??? Doesn?t that give you the right to rebel against such oppression?). Armenians at 1st started defending themselves but the Kurds were reinforced by the Regular Turkish Troops! Do you think any Armenian from that point on would ever trust their government? The involvement of Turkish regular troops is recorded in the British Archives. The scene ended by thousands of Armenians being killed. The incident resulted in strong Armenian protests against the sultan's brutal policies and European interventions to quell further disturbances by persuading the Ottoman government to adopt reforms for the Armenian-populated provinces. The police responded to a demonstration held in Constantinople in September 1895 by Armenian political organizations which sought to pressure the government and the European Powers to implement the promised administrative reforms by letting loose a massacre in the capital city. Thereupon, beginning without provocation in the city of Trebizond on the Black Sea, and in a pattern indicating a premeditated plan, a series of massacres spread south through nearly every major Armenian-inhabited town of the empire. It culminated in the single worst atrocity in those months with the burning of the Armenian cathedral of Urfa (ancient Edessa) within whose walls some 3,000 Armenians had taken refuge during the siege of their neighborhood.(BURNT ALIVE) To a last desperate attempt by Armenian revolutionaries to draw the attention of the world by seizing in Constantinople the European-owned Ottoman Bank in August 1896, the government responded by unleashing wholesale reprisals during which five to six thousand Armenians were killed in the space of three days within sight of the European embassies. The so called Article that appeared in the New York Herald I?m sure you brought it from a site called ?Tall Armenian Tale??which is full of lies and inaccurate records. Moreover?I would like to see the full article in its original form if you can supply it because I will in the coming days start to present original papers. Now I?m not going to tell you that Armenians were saints and didn?t kill anybody but when the Ottoman government plays a role in massacring them and sends its regular troops to aid bandits and burn villages I think that it?s a divine right for any nation to defend itself.

So your saying Armenians defended themselves against bandits who burnt villages and massacred the population.

Then why do you find it abnormal for Muslims to defend themselves against Armenian bandits(& terrorists) that burnt villages and massacred the population?

Are you defending double-standards or am i misunderstanding you?

Quote: When you talk about Yildez bombing in which the Sultan was to be killed?the Young Turks which were the greatest allies of the Tashnak party had a great role in the preparations. Turks were wanting the Sultans death as much as Armenians?& Armenians played a big role in overthrowing the Sultan & establishing the Ottoman Constitution. If Armenians only hated and murdered Turks they wouldn?t have supported the young Turks and done their ?Dirty Job? of trying to kill the Sultan.

The to be assassins : Krisdapor Mikaelyan, Vram ªabuh Kendiryan, Belgian Joris, Silvio Risçi, Lipa-Rips, Torkom (Ardas Haçik Kaptanyan), Safo (Konstantin Kabulyan), Mari Zayn, Garo (Hamparsun Agacanyan), Kris Fenerciyan, Asod (Karlo Yovanoiç) and some other people from Europe and the Caucasus.

Young Turks may or may not have been against the Sultan. But it was the Armenians that attempted to kill the Sultan.

Quote: Moreover here are some straight facts: 1.The British ethnographer William Ramsay, who visited the Ottoman empire for his own studies, estimated that from 1894 to 1897, 200,000 Armenians fell victim of those massacres. 2.Emperor William II, who estimated that up to December 20, 1895, 80,000 Armenians were killed. 3.The British Ambassador White, based on the data submitted to him by British consuls, estimated that up to early December 1895, 100,000 Armenians were killed 4.German Foreign ministry operative and Turkophile author, E. Jackh, estimated (by including the 1896 massacres) that 200,000 Armenians were killed, 50,000 expelled and one million pillaged and plundered 5.French historian, Pierre Renouvin, the President of the Commission in charge of assembling and classifying French diplomatic documents, in a postwar volume, based on authenticated documents, provided 250,000 as being the total number of Armenians killed. Armenian estimates run from 250,000 as high as 350,000.

Along with the numbers being inflated mass numbers of Armenians were killed, true. But why don't you mention the ten thousands of Muslims killed by Armenian gangs? Or the mass numbers of Turkmens that migrated to Iran just to dicth Armenian gangs?

Anyhow since you complain about the measures the Ottoman army took against terrorism, treason and rebellions. I ask you what do you suggest the Ottoman Empire should have done instead to fight terrorism, treason and rebels?

I have shown you heavier measures modern, democratic countries have took against terrorism in the 21st century. I believe the Ottoman Empire responded very tolerant towards such acts in the 19th century. But i do keep an open mind incase you would like to show me lighter measures countries have took to fight terrorism and treason.

---




?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Armenianwill,

First of all welcome to forum, hope you enjoy it here.

Quote: First of all if you are trying to say that Armenians migrated to Eastern "Anatolia" in 1022 you are hugely mistaken Armenians used to live in those lands for more than 2000 years those lands were known as "Haygagan Ashkharh" meaning "ArmenianWorld" far before it was called "Anatolia" the only part that Armenians were migrated to was Cilicia and it was after the Pakradounian Dynasty. More over at that time Asia was part of Byzantine Empire it wasn't Anatolia my point is that even in Cilicia Armenians came before the Turks. And by the way not all of Armenians were "forced Migrated" by Byzantine Empire many migrated because of the devastating invations of the Seljuks (which amazinly isn't mentioned in that chronology of yours)

I was refering more to Central Anatolia. Anyhow i'm no historian, i'm just a student trying understand my past with limited resources. My bad if i missed some key moments. Noone is denying that Armenians originated from Eastern Anatolia but Armenian settlements in Central Anatolia were due to Byzantium policies and Armenian settlements in Western Anatolia and the Balkans were due to Ottoman policies.

Quote: FYI in the year 1461 there were 2 catholicosates for the Armenians one in Ech Miyadzin and the other in Cilicia now why did Fatih Sultan "grant" Hovagim Bishop the tilttle Patriarch in Itanbul? Isn't it because if the Patriarch would be closer to him he would have more control over him or poor Armenians they don't have any religious leaders so let's give them one.

Why don't you tell me?

Quote: By the way in the mean time do you know what was happening in the Armenian provinces? Have you heard of Armenians paying hight taxes even higher than Turks? ever heard of Armenian villiges being raded and invaded by bandits and even by Ottoman soldiers and Armenian properties were being abused not to say Armenian women also being abused Armenian children being taken away and yet Armenians can do nothing. Ever heard of the term "Yenicheri" this are soldiers in the Ottoman Empire they are part of the orgnized army they are made of abducted Armenian children who after being abducted are raised as extreme Muliem-Turks and trained very well and turned into fighting machines. Let me add some dates in that chrenology of yours An Ottoman Historian from 16th century named Pechevi Ibrahim talks about the invation of Sultan Souleyman Ganouni (1551-1554) how great were the villages and cities how cultivated was the land he talks about how beautiful was Yerevan and how the Ottomans burned and distroyed the city and took thausands of womwen as hostages with them and they moved toward Nakhichevan and Zankezour and also talks about how they robed everything in their reach. Intelectuals from 15th century such as: Douk, Frandouin, Khalkhogondil have always brought up in there writings how Ottomans used to try to force people ( Armenians Balkanians,...) and many others to make them turks.According to Armenian historian Kersam Aharonian Armenian population from the beginning of the Sljuks invation and till the beginning of the 20th century have decreased to half why is that?

It was the medieval ages, don't judge history with 21st century mentality. It's a fact Armenians(& other Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire) had more privileges then any other minority in any other country at the time.

I'd like you to keep in mind, not a single Muslim or Jew was left alive in Spain by the Christians during the same period of history.

Quote: Even if what you say is true and the problem was between Armenians and non Turk Mulems where was the government now don't tell me about "the sick man" and stuff coz if the government wasn't capable why was nonArmenians allowed to have weapons and to Armenians even knives weren't allowed. either disallow for both or allow both.

Armenian gangs did have weapons.

Quote: can you tell me who forced them to move to Anatolia and if their was tensions beween Muslems and Christians elswere Armenians weren't christians these tensions weren't going to happen with them yeah?

Russians invaded Chechnyia and the Balkans massacring millions of Muslims and forcing mass numbers to migrate.

Quote: and if it was these nonturk muslems that you claim were the reason of all Armenian losses and treagedy why didn't the govenment help the Armenians every massacure that you have done agains Armenians you say Armenians revolted, first of all it isn't revolt you sad it your self if someone comes into your home and starts to kill you have no choice but to DEFEND YOURSELF so the revolt thing is out of the question.

Defending yourself is one thing, taking over villages and massacring the entire population is another thing.

Unless you didn't know Armenians gangs weren't heroic and peacefull as you think they were. They were full on terrorist gangs that led to many deaths.

Quote: and moreover why is that all of the massacures happened to Armenians and the others who caused the tension in the first place weren't punished?

The Ottoman Empire was built on justice. In no country had Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in peace for so long. But as the Ottoman Empire declined everyone suffered. The 19th century was a horrible century for everyone in the empire. Not a single Muslim or Jew made it out alive from Mora during the Greek war of independence, 80 000 Muslims trying to flee from Romania were massacred in a week. It was rough times, you must understand the Ottomans had very little authority over many places.

Russians had more control over West Caucasus then the Ottomans did. What i'm saying is the authorities did have problems securing the population, noone denies that.

Quote: About Russia first of all Russia didn't want Armenia to break free from the Ottoman Empire they wanted to conqure those lands in order to reach to the warm shores of the mediterreanian.

Ofcourse they didn't say that to the Armenians, instead they provoked the Armenians against Turks by tricking Armenian intellectuals with romantic dreams of independence.

Quote: "Russia wanted to do in East Anatolia, what it had done in the Balkans; create religious tension, start a civil war and then via the Russian amry add the finishing touch." wait a minute now i'm confused weren't you the one who said that the religious tension came when "Circassians from the Caucasus and Muslims from the Balkans were forced to move to Anatolia(especially East Anatolia)" so make up your mind who sarted the tensions?

Russia supported religous tension in any form, the fact that angry Muslims who had esacped Christian atrocities settled in East Anatolia only made it easier for Russians to reach their goals.

Quote: You say that East Anatolia was mainly Muslem populated if this is true i want to ask you why is that the Armenians who have been living in those lands for 3000 years had less population than Turks and Kurds who have been living there for only 7or 8 hundred years?

East Anatolia was invaded by Persians, Romans, Greeks, Turks etc. There were many factors that caused the Armenian population to decrease.
I know you think it's not fair on Armenians but unfortunately these things happen. Just like 800 000 Azeris are still refugees cause of the Armenian army.

Quote: I already talked about the revolt think i just wanna add if in fact in the massacures of 1894-96 and Adana 1909 were just to stop these "revolts" WHY IS THAT WOMEN CHILDREN AND THE ELDERLY ALSO WERE BUCHERED. 300,000 (from which 8000 were slaugtered in the street of Istanbul) have been massacured in 1894-96 and 30000 in Adana 1909 all of them were bloody revolts?

The same reason Armenian gangs butchered Muslim women, children and elderly.

Quote: Great point here first of all remember that there were Armenians in the east that were Russian citizens so they had to. As i said before Armenians supported the Young Turks they had blind faith in them too (especially Tashnaks). So Armenians who didn't trust Turks because of the history between them crossed the border and joined the russian forces NO REVOLUTION TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT FROM WITHIN WAS PLANNED NOR HAPPENED. People who trusted the government they were with the government people who didn't trust the government they went to join the russian Army.

What ever the reason is, thousands of Turkish Armenians joined the Russian army to kill Turks and invade Turkey.

That is treason.

Quote: As i said above the main hostility came from the Turks who came to Armenia they conqured it and with there presence came the blackest lines and pages of Armenians, Balkanians, Asyrians, Arabs....etc. history. Moreover i would like to add even though Armenians have seen nothing but death from Turks for centuries Armenians in 1908 were convinced that these young Turks who have been Educated in Europe and preached brotherhood, equality and freedom joint forces with them and helped them but just to be BETRAYED AND STABED IN THE BACK by the act of GENOCIDE. As for the so called "Armenian Gangs" it is a wide issue i know we'll have time in the future to talk about it my post is long enough.

We wared the Byzantine Empire and won, we never wared Armenians.

Anyhow he Young Turks betrayed all, not just Armenians.

---




?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Dear Colleague...When you follow the timeline you'll see that Kurdish or any other sort of bandits attacked Armenian villages burnt houses,killed the children, raped the women...with the direct support of the Ottoman Army...
When the Archives PROVE that the Armenians were being considered to be 2nd classs cirizens
When the government doesn't take any steps to stop the hostility against Armenians from local or imported muslim tribes.
When the government allows Kurdish tribes to gather extra taxes from Armenians...although these tribes do not represent any authority
When the government doesn't allow Armenian literature,newspapers,journals to be published
When the government, according to Historian Osman Nuri, itself arms local bandits & gives them the right to massacre Armenians......Do you consider the Armenian groups that started to engage against the local bandits and aiding Ottoman troops Terrorists??If you consider them as such, then i highly doubt your ability to judge events.
when a gov't opresses its people to this extend...do you really consider any armed rebelion from this people as treason?Who's the traitor..a government who was supposed to protect its citizens but instead engaged in massacres or the people who defended itself from this oppression.
When you see the results of Armenian deaths in 2 years only according to several archives...German,British,French...the number is around 200,000...How many Turks were killed by Armenian bandits...please bring me records from neutral sources...when i mentiopn anything...i menation it by giving sources..don't tell me that tens of thousands of Muslims were killed without bringing me evidence from European or US sources...cause i highly doubt the numbers of the Turkish Archives which is full of lies...I'm not going to bring you any numbers from the Armenian Archives too so you wouldn't say they are biased..all my sources are European or American...who weren't a side in this...please give me sources...
While to your other 2 questions i answer...About the attempt to killed the sultan...
1.There is enough evidence to support the collaboration of "Young Turks" in the killing attempt. Moreover the attempt was on July 21, 1905...while Sultan Abdul Hamid was already responsible for the death of 200,000 Armenians back in 1894-1897...so don't represent this as if the Sultan was taking revenge from those who tried to murder him...he had already killed 200,000 Armenians...it was the Armenians who were trying to avenge their massacred brothers.






AZERI BUTT KICKERS

I highly Appreciate that you had the courage to admit that the young Turks betrayed both Armenians & Turks..Well done man!I think just by addmiting this we will have more interesting conversations in the future...
About the number of Azeri refugees...it not 800,000 Its 500,000 according to the UN..the Azeris enlarge the number a little bit...while the UN confirms that Armenia also has 250,000 Refugees so take both sides of the issue..Armenians are suffering also..the difference is that Armenia gave these refugess citizenship and allowed them to continue their lives while Azerbaijan keeps them in Refugee camps to use them as a political card...while it spends 750million dollars on defence budget instead of trying to feed these people.






AZERI BUTT KICKERS

Let's make one thing straight first there were 7 Armenian provinces in the Ottoman empire 6 of which has always been part of historical Armenia (Van, Bitlis, Kharput, Erzrum, Diyarbekir, Sivas) and the 7th which is Cilicia where as I said Armenians Migrated forcefully or by will because of the Sejuk invation in the 11th century. As for the Central Anatolia and Istanbul Armenians started to migate there during the Ottoman Empire.


"It was the medieval ages, don't judge history with 21st century mentality. It's a fact Armenians(& other Christian minorities within the Ottoman Empire) had more privileges then any other minority in any other country at the time.

I'd like you to keep in mind, not a single Muslim or Jew was left alive in Spain by the Christians during the same period of history."

Really well I know. But in your Choronology you don't mention how Armenians suffered from the Turks throughout their presence in Asia Minor and claim that suddenly Armenians started killing Turks from nowhere and you present Armenians as traitors. No my friend Turks have brought hell to Armeians from the first day they came to Armenia so if at a point these opressed people start to defend themselves against the injustice you call it a treason. If it is true, if Armenians in fact lived better as a minority in the Ottoman Empire it is because the Ottoman Empire needed the Armenians they used to rob them they used to collect high taxes and Armenians could do nothing that's why unlike Muslems and Jews in Spain Armenians were left "alive" do you kill the cow that gives you a big amount of milk for free and doesn't complaine? but when Armenians started to defend themselves and realized that no we are being abused we could fight back though in very limitted way suddenly it was time to get rid of the "traitor" how dare they get robed be raped be treated unjustly and complaine?

"Armenian gangs did have weapons."
My friend why don't you understand? Armenians were considered 2nd class citizens and weren't allowed to carry weapons if Armenians had weapons they had to smugle throught the border moreover Armenian properties were under strong suvalence so how armed were these "bendits" if there were "bendits" and how many were they on the other hand Kurds and Turks were allowed to have weapons and the government itself armed them so tell me who had the sources the Kurds and Turks bendits and regular army on one hand or the Armenians on the other and moreover if there were bandits why don't they go after them why put a whole citty undersiege WITH THE HELP OF KURD BENDITS.

"Russians invaded Chechnyia and the Balkans massacring millions of Muslims and forcing mass numbers to migrate."
If it was the Russians or the Ottomas if someone comes to my home and intemidates me and starts tensions with me and kills me i would i would defenatly try to defend myself wouldn't you? and moreover i axpect the government to defend me aswell.

"The Ottoman Empire was built on justice. In no country had Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in peace for so long. But as the Ottoman Empire declined everyone suffered. The 19th century was a horrible century for everyone in the empire. Not a single Muslim or Jew made it out alive from Mora during the Greek war of independence, 80 000 Muslims trying to flee from Romania were massacred in a week. It was rough times, you must understand the Ottomans had very little authority over many places."
What PEACE are you talking about is robing killing abducting peace or there is a new definition of peace i'm not aare of?

"Russians had more control over West Caucasus then the Ottomans did. What i'm saying is the authorities did have problems securing the population, noone denies that"
Really? So only when slaugtering Armenians Ottoman Empire had control over West Caucasus or Armenian Provinces if you say that Ottoman Empire wasn't able to stop Kurds then they shouldn't have forbidden Armenians to carry arms so they can at least defend themselves coz the government is not able to do hat job but as i said Kurds were given weapons to kill Armenians.

"Ofcourse they didn't say that to the Armenians, instead they provoked the Armenians against Turks by tricking Armenian intellectuals with romantic dreams of independence."
Armenians didn't need "provocation" from the Russians because the situation that they were in, in the Ottoman Empire was "provocation" enough for them to take certain stands.


"Russia supported religous tension in any form, the fact that angry Muslims who had esacped Christian atrocities settled in East Anatolia only made it easier for Russians to reach their goals."
On the other hand Ottoman Empire who is dreaming to get rid of itS Armenian population by opression used these angry Muslems in order to kill more Armenians so these people were thursty to kill christians and Armenians were there so the Ottoman Empire armed them and sent them on the Armenians. so it was win situation for Russia and win situation for the Ottoman Empire.


"East Anatolia was invaded by Persians, Romans, Greeks, Turks etc. There were many factors that caused the Armenian population to decrease.
I know you think it's not fair on Armenians but unfortunately these things happen. Just like 800 000 Azeris are still refugees cause of the Armenian army."
My friend I said Armenian population in 19th became half of the population of the 11th century (the time when Seljuks and Turkic tribes started to come to Asia Minor). I mean within 8 centuries the population instead of increasing it decreased to half. Emmmmmmm Persians, Romans and Greeks were way before last time i checked. What things happen the population of a race decreases by a half during Turkish preasence and you tell me Armenians were living in good conditions? come on. As for the Azeri thing what do you mean what does this have to do with anything?

"The same reason Armenian gangs butchered Muslim women, children and elderly."
REALLY!!!! WOW!!! So this is your logic because Armenian "Bendits" killed Kurd women children and the elderly (which i totally disagree) the Ottoman Empire sends forces to kill Armenian women chiildren and the elderly. Don't tell me Kurds did that in revenge coz Armenian1 explained enough that first Kurds were armed by the government and moreover the Ottoman Army also participated in the massacures

"What ever the reason is, thousands of Turkish Armenians joined the Russian army to kill Turks and invade Turkey.
That is treason."
If you call it treason call it but my point is that is act of some Armenians a reason for the Ottoman to inplement the genocide? Bearing in mind that most of Armenians supported the government and helped them first to get to power and to build the Empire from 1908. And moreover my point is that unlike your governmets' claime that Armenians started revolts within the empire i'm saying that Armenians who were with the government who were the majority by the way stayed in the Empire and helped the government just to be stabbed in the back and those who were agains went to Russia and took Arms but never Sabotaged from within.





My friend you are trying to counter my points without knowing what my points are. Let me tell you the following:
Turks including you always tell me that Armenians were very happy in the Ottoman Empire i have heard people tell me that Armenians even lived better than Turks and Kurds. The Ottoman Empire have done nothing but great things to Armenians as you put in your chrenology but Armenian traitors suddenly out of nowhere they started to revolt they stabbed us in the back started to kill Muslems (as if Kurds and Turks are the only Muslems in the world). So i tell you NO way you are way way wrong. From the first moment of the Turkic tribes came to Armenia, Armenians saw nothing but death Turkic Tribes distroyed infinite number of villages, citties, properties, they abducted children women ....eyc. this is confirmed by Russians, French, the British and not to mention Armenians. Like it or not Armenians lived in the dark till the 19th century. Why was the 19th century so different? simple just because of the French Revolution which effected all of Europe and reached to the Ottoman Empire. Armenians started to have writers like Khachadour Apovian screaming about being Armenian writers like Raffi screaming that Kurds and Turks are better than Armenians for them to come and take hatever they want including women from Armenians in front of the father or the husband it's time to stand up for ourselves now effected from the French revolution Armenians realized that no it is time to realise that we are Armenians it's time to get more in touch with our identity and try to put an end to the injustice that was going on for centuries it's time to cut the hands of the person who steals from me and in the 19th century Armenians started demending better life the ideas that came from the french revolution revolutionized the Armenian villagers mentality first believe it or not he thought it was his duty give the Kurd or Turk Bey or Pasha whatever he want but then he realized that no i don't have to. Armenians started to smugle weapons coz they weren't allowed to carry any for they were 2nd class citizens to try to defend themselves if the Kurds would come to rob a village the started to that Armenians responded they defended themselves so the "rule" of the centuries was broken Kurds and Turks can't live by sucking Armenians blood. Kurds and Turks weren't the only problem the government used to collect very high amount of taxes from Armenians higher than Kurds and Turks and attempts to reduce these taxes after failing Armenians in Zeitun, Sasun ...etc. Revolted IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE TAXES and protect them from Kurds who constantly raided the villages as i said. An example to show you that Armeniasn didn't intend to gain independence is the Revolt in Zeitun in 1862 It started when the people of Zeitun refused to pay taxes and the local governor Aziz Pasha attecks Zeitun and the surrounding villages he destroys many villages around Zeitun but fails to enter the citty within 2 attepts the four leaders of Zeitun get invited to Istanbul demend to decrease the taxes and have the liberty to learn Armenian in their schools and stop the massacures in the villags around the citty (which they were asking for the first place) in return Zeitun had to give up their arms. What an attept to gain independence.When Sultan Hamid came to power things when from bad to worst and Armenians whith their demends of better life and security became more international in the Congress of Berline though the Ottoman Empire had promissed reformes to the Armenian provinces but as usual these reforms remained on paper and Sultan Hamid realized that the only way to ger rid of the Armenian Quesstion is to get rid of the Armenians. He founded militents called "Hamidiyye" who were made of Kurds and "cherkez" people whos job is to slaughter Armenians from 1894-96 300000 Armenians fell victims of the direct massacures though some places were able to defend themselvessuch as Van, Zeytoun and Sasoun but other places like Istanbul, Drabizon, Sivas (Sepastia), Kharput (Kharpert), Marash, Diyarbekir (Dikranagerd) ....etc. And because of intrests the European nations didn't intervene and British Prime Minister Glavston even have said that his military can't get at the top of Ararad meaning they don't have the intentions to intervene coz they need the Empire more that Armenians.in the beginning of the 20th century the Young Turks came to the Ottoman Empire they offered Armenians to combine efforts with them and throw Hamids Regime and restore the constitution under the "Brotherhood, Equality and Freedom" slogan Armenians believed that these people who have come from and been educated in Europe. and help them in every aspect till they were able to overthrow Hamid in 1908 and reinstate the constitution. Armenian prisoners were released and Armenians years dreamt freedom have come at last but only 1 year later the devistation massacures of Adana shook the nation where 30000 Armenians fell victems the government threw the blame on Sultan Hamid who was thrown down from his position. from 1908 till 1914 Armenians lived there best years under the Ottoman rules all the secret organizations like political parties started working openly which made the Union and Progress covernment to know everything about Armenians ans secretly planned for the Armenian Genocide that occured from 1915 till 1917.

Up till now no one talked about the actuale genocide so i will stop here

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

"We wared the Byzantine Empire and won, we never wared Armenians."
Although Seljuks may be your ansestors but i don't like to say you waged war...... let me say:
Seljuks waged war against the Byzantine Empire yes but Seljuks raded and destroyed Armenian Citties and villages.



I had in mind commenting on this centence but i forgot this post is just for this sentence.
"Anyhow he Young Turks betrayed all, not just Armenians."

Armenian1 have put it well just wanna add thanks man for this sentence how much far our points of view may be this very sentence have brought us very close together i'm happy you think this way i just hope your government starts to think this way and would stop organizations like Talat Pasha coz those organizations are actually insulting Turkkishness instead of those writers who are fighting for better Turkey and take example from you greatest national hero Mustafa Kemal who he himself condamned those criminals.

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

Hope it"s informative,and enlightening if your open minded you'll read the lot, i just felt the world should know a little more about our holier than though armen freinds struggle, whilst these ar'nt my writtings theres plenty more where this came from just google nazi armenian and its all there,ennjoy.

Yet another historical fact:
a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory - the fact of Armenian-Nazi collaboration.

A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind.

To give specific examples of actions; In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under the wings of Hitler�s Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and other ��undesirables�� destined for the Nazi concentration camps. The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to the extermination of �inferior� races [1].

This is confirmed by Armenophil Christopher J. Walker, who admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him, members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas, including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis sympathies. A report in an American magazine went so far as to claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth- column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the �Armenian 812th Battalion�. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians. Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later grew to 30,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and the North Caucasus.(These are the dates and numbers given by Walker).

A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German Minister of the occupied areas. The Council�s president was Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian, and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien, edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio Berlin. The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians were �Aryans�. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seemed to have achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the occupied lands [2].

"Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance." [3]

"Wholly opportunistic the Armenians have been variously pro-Nazi, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient." [4]

Well hello Anonymous
It is very easy to copy and paste a whole article isn't it? The "facts" first of all that you are talking about come from a single website desighned by the Tukish government propaganda machine and you are the direct victim of it. I have seen this site and it's helariouse and more over i have read the part where you got these "facts".
First of all a small note that isn't that important. I donno German at all but i know that the english term of " Deutsch-Armenischen" is German- Armenian not Nazi-Armenian. THough this proves nothing but i can see from here how acurate and precise this website is but again i don't want to make a stance from this small point they may have "unintentionally" put it like that.
But Luckily i have done some research about this so called "Nazi-Armenian collaberation" and I have come to very intresting Asrticle the Link is the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Legion
it isn't Armenian site and looking at the references one can see not a single one is Armenian.
just to mention some parts of the article:
"Many of these soldiers were former Soviet Red Army POWs, forced to fight for German forces rather than on their own choosing"
"Of the 18,000 men in the battalion, 11,000 made up field battalions while the remaining 7,000 served in non-combat duties such as logistic supplies and first aid."
"Many Jewish soldiers serving in the Red Army and captured as POWs were saved by some of the Armenians in the Legion."
" American historian Alexander Dallin notes that Armenian and Georgian battalions were later sent to the Netherlands as a result of Hitler's distrust for them, many of which deserted."
Now can you see how Armenians colleberated with the Nazis and they were part of the perpetrators of the "Final Solution"?
Moreover although you know but you haven't mentioned it i wonder why? If 18,000 or 20,000 Armenians did had a bettalion in the Nazi Army, 3-500,000 of Armenians were in the Soviet Army and 175,000 of them died fighting against the fascism. Not to mention Soviet 89th "Tamanyan" Division was the first Soviet division who entered Berline and danced Armenian "Kochari" in the center of Berline. As a reward to these soldiers the USSR rewarded "Mayr Hayasdan" Monument in "Haghtanagi Ayki" in Yerevan.
taken from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_SSR
"Those Armenians and Georgians who were captured by the Germans as POWs were formed into the 812th Armenian Battalion. Mistrust stemming from Nazi Germany's leader Adolf Hitler, led to the battalion to be primarily stationed to serve in an anti-aircraft defense role based in Holland. Though many deserted, some, according to Jewish Red Army POW Josef Moisevich Kogan played an active role in helping Jews escape the Nazi-orchestrated Holocaust. Because of their deeds, many Armenians are recognized by Jews as among the Righteous Among the Nations. "
So stop searching for hair in the egg (it's an Armenian expression meaning stop searching for small things and making them bigger just for the sake of complaint or making Armenians to look bad) especially when these claims are baseless and biased.



Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

Hi friends, i read your responses and hopefully i'll give an answer on the week-end. I'm kinda busy now.

Just so you 2 don't think i bailed or something

---




?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Look before i turn this off i gota hand it to you guys ,and yea copy n past is fun ,by the way i understand your in denial and hey my sources for your info are from an israely forum and nothing to do with the "turkish properganda machine" DUDE just fess up you people were in with the nazi's for arayan status ,sad but true,hey i got some more from the israely forum check this out .

The Armenian Nazis were a vital and effective part of the overall Nazi Jewish killing machine. The Armenian Nazis captured and sent hundreds of thousands of Jews to the death camps of World War II. The author is working with teams of scholars who are studying Armenian Nazi unit histories and the arrest reports issued by Armenian Nazis in Holland and other countries occupied by Armenian Nazi troops. Help from Holocaust survivors who were captured by Armenian Nazis is urged, encouraged, and welcome.

If any Holocaust survivor who lived in Holland during World War II and was arrested and tortured before being sent to the concentration camps by individuals who didn�t look like the blond and blue eyed Germans, but who were dark skinned and brown eyed, were probably Armenians. This was the heinous 812th battalion of Armenian Nazis under the command of the infamous Armenian General Dro. This is the general who made his reputation by massacring women and children of Muslim villages during World War I and who thereafter put his "skills" to work for the Nazis. The pages of history record that Dro and his Armenian troops were very good at hunting down Jews and sending them to the death camps.

The author is seeking the memories, documents, and accounts of Jewish survivors and their family members who were subjected to Armenian Nazi terror during World War II. It is estimated that this book will be ready for publication in about 18 months.

The author is absolutely baffled by the audacity of the Armenian lobby to erect reportedly $50 million worth of "Genocide Museum" in Washington DC! This museum is not only an insult to hundreds of thousands of Jews in Holland, captured and shipped to concentration camps by the Armenian-Nazi police, 20,000 strong at its peak, but also a disservice to unsuspecting American Christian taxpayers whose money is being squandered by unscrupulous politicians currying favor with Armenian lobby

@Ixtanbul...Yah man take your time...no rush...i know u didn't bail out.
@Champion65...The topic is called Armenian/Turkish if you have an opinion about it please share it with us...if you don't feel free not to participate with posts that have no meaning nor proper sources...
Let me put an end to all this nonesense...
1.Stop whining about Armenians being with the Nazis...in 1940 Armenia was already in the USSR & the Armenian Army was fighting within the Soviet Army against the Nazi Forces.
2.Armenia had 600,000 Soldiers in the soviet Army...of which 300,000 were killed in actions against the Nazis saving Europe from extrimism. What did your country do to inhibit spread of Nazism??(hmm wait...they waited like hungry wolves for the Nazi Army to weaken the Soviets so that you can enter Caucasia...yup great job!!...unfortunately the Soviets kicked the Nazis butt in Europe...Do you know what it means to give 300,000 Martyrs when the whole Armenian populataion at that time was around 3 million?It mean you're sacrificing 10%
of your popultaion for a cause that has got nothing to do with you.
3.Josef Moisevich Kogan, himself a Jewish Red Army soldier captured by German forces, noted the help he received by an Armenian doctor in the 812th when he was snuck into the battalion itself and later escaped with the help of Dutch underground resistance members.
4.Not to mention the Armenians who fought side by side with their European brothers in the French underground Resistance as Missak Manouchian(who was one of the leaders in the French Underground).
5.The Armenian Battalion was formed of Armenian Prisoners of War who were forcefully enrolled in the Nazi Army however they played a great role in helpinh Jewish prisoners escape...this lead to their transfer to defensive posts in the Netherlands...The battalion wa given only 1 job...when the Nazi forces reach Caucsia..they had to enter Armenia and submit it to Nazi Rule...However the Nazis failed.Why?Because the Soviet Armies crushed them...Also just for your knowledge...The first division that entered Berlin was the "Tamanian Division" which was the Armenian Division in the Soviet Army. So before you talk about things that you don't have a clue about i suggest you research the writings of Auron Yair(Israeli),Alexander Dallin(American),Hans Houterman(American Jew)..instead of reading a poor research in the Turkish Daily new...and for God's sake stop embaressing yourself.
The rest i leave for the words of Adolf Hitler: "I don't know about these Georgians. They do not belong to the Turkic peoples...I consider only the Muslims to be reliable....All others I deem unreliable. For the time being I consider the formation of these battalions of purely Caucasian peoples very risky, while I don't see any danger in the establishment of purely Muslim units....In spite of all declarations from Rosenberg and the military, I don't trust the Armenians either" ADOLF HITLER (Auron Yair-The Banality of Denial p.263)








AZERI BUTT KICKERS

"my sources for your info are from an israely forum and nothing to do with the "turkish properganda machine" "
Intresting, let's see. you are taking "facts" from something said in a forum and without questioning it or researching to see if it is true or not or without even seeing where is the source of that certain information you copy past it and use it as a fact and try to support your argument a genius way to support an argument. Moreover my friend even if you haven't taken this info from the propaganda site that i'm talking about this doesn't mean that that person who has posted this in that forum hasn't taken it from that site because incedently the same writing with the same words sentences paragrapgs is on that propaganda site that i'm talking about if you want i can give you the site ( though i rather not coz i don't like to advertise a propaganda site like that) but i think you perfectly know which site it is. As for the forum can i have the link to that forum first to check and second to go and discuss the issue with them.
Further more i have explained and put you some sources not taken from some gossip from a certain forum and neither is an Armenian site. Moreover Armenian1 too have explained it just like me very well now you come and start to support your argument with that forum gossip? come on who are you fooling man? Please stop embarassing yourself.

Ixtanbul take your time man no rush we are waiting for your reply.

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

armenian 1,and armenianwill i have put forward my thoughts ,ideas etc on the greece turkey forum in error however check and reply here ,alternativly i can reiterate what i mentioned here if you so wish otherwise take a look there and reply wherevever.

Why do Armenia reject Turkey for Historically debate. Because the Armenians sais 100% the truth ?

Turjey will open all his archive (the ottoman archive) and they will the same that Armenia doe the same.

but always rejected why??



some people are killed 3 times because in anatolia were 550.000 armenians and during the deportation some of them died . around 300.000 died



Armenia has nothing they are in starvation their last hope is get money from Turkey because they can blame them for genocide.

Armenians have no honour. GEBERIN picler

hello there...Basics of polite converstion demands you to intorduce yourself to us before starting to accuse everyone & writing a lot of sentences without bringing your sources...I reject every word you say cause they don't have proper sources. If you read RULE 1 ...of this thread you would see that we don't speak anything without siting sources...

Let me negate what you said and wish you would research better the next time.

Almost a Week ago the French president when Jack Chirak was in Armenia...the reporter of "Hurriyet" turkish newspaper asked the president of Armenia...why haven't you responeded to PM ERdogans request to form a commitee of Histrians...he said "Official Requests are made through diplomatic channel not Mass media" meaning if your PM got balls let him present a written request through diplomatic chanlles or a third country intead of during an interview blabing an idea..like we care what your PM says on the TV..if he wants to talk let him write a letter...HOWEVER he said "I responded to Mr. Erdogan by saying Armenia is ready to form an Inter-Govermnetal comission which discusses all the issues between the 2 countries including PM Erdogans request to form a committee to historians...I never got an answer from Mr. Erdogan...so its your governmnet running away from discussion...moreover I can't believe how you fall for any lies that is represented..The Armenian Archives are already open..they are not hidden they are put in a museum...even a 5 year old kid can go and research..100s of Turkish Historians have made researches there...While its your gov't that in 1996 Banned Professor Wilmar Kaiser from researching Ottoman Archives because he started to find facts that pove the Genocide!!!If you have open archives why do you ban historians from researching them?

Anatolia, According to Turkish sources had 1.2 million Armenian...from where did you bring your numbers????You're contradicting your own gov't & your own sources...while British,Frech,German,Armenian sources suggest the number was between 1.3-2 million.
Moreover, do you think if 300,000 people were killed it means it wasn't a genocide?? A gencoide is not measured by the number of dead, it is measured by the intention & method of killing.(so get your figures and facts right)

You're dreaming...Armenian Economy is the Tiger Economy of caucase, It has had double digit growth for the past 5 years...despite the blockade from both sides, the IMF(International Monetory Fund) forcasts that Armenia if continues like this within 17 years will be among the leading economies in the world. Armenia has revenues of more than 1 billion dollars each year due to the money sent from Diaspora to Armenia..
Do you really think Armenia's going to ask money from Turkey??Are you really that immature?how old are you?Turkey has a budget deficite of 20 Billion dollars each year!!!It cannot even support its own people...its gonna pay to Armenia???

I suggest next time you come to wirte here you'll do some research instead of embaressing yourself

Hello Punisher

Armenian1 has put it very well in his post prior to mine i'm sorry man i don't blame you. You are another prisoner of Turkish media. But i want to add only one thing that Armenian1 didn't mention let's say your numbers are perfectly right, i.e. Armenians were 550000 and 300000 "died" do you realize what this means 55% of the population you are saying has died and yet there is nothing wrong in it things are fine and great yeah? wake up man and please read what you wrote and think before you post.

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

Quote: Dear Colleague...When you follow the timeline you'll see that Kurdish or any other sort of bandits attacked Armenian villages burnt houses,killed the children, raped the women...with the direct support of the Ottoman Army... When the Archives PROVE that the Armenians were being considered to be 2nd classs cirizens When the government doesn't take any steps to stop the hostility against Armenians from local or imported muslim tribes. When the government allows Kurdish tribes to gather extra taxes from Armenians...although these tribes do not represent any authority

The goverment also couldn't stop Russia from supporting armed Armenian gangs from terrorizing the Muslim population.

Quote: When the government doesn't allow Armenian literature,newspapers,journals to be published When the government, according to Historian Osman Nuri, itself arms local bandits & gives them the right to massacre Armenians......Do you consider the Armenian groups that started to engage against the local bandits and aiding Ottoman troops Terrorists??If you consider them as such, then i highly doubt your ability to judge events. when a gov't opresses its people to this extend...do you really consider any armed rebelion from this people as treason?Who's the traitor..a government who was supposed to protect its citizens but instead engaged in massacres or the people who defended itself from this oppression. When you see the results of Armenian deaths in 2 years only according to several archives...German,British,French...the number is around 200,000...How many Turks were killed by Armenian bandits...please bring me records from neutral sources...when i mentiopn anything...i menation it by giving sources..don't tell me that tens of thousands of Muslims were killed without bringing me evidence from European or US sources...cause i highly doubt the numbers of the Turkish Archives which is full of lies...I'm not going to bring you any numbers from the Armenian Archives too so you wouldn't say they are biased..all my sources are European or American...who weren't a side in this...please give me sources...

Mate your acting as if Armenians were innocent, Armenians busted their balls so European powers could intervene. Most of the time the state couldn't even try Armenians terrorists cause of fear of European intervention. Most of the time Armenian gang leaders would end up safe and sound in some European capital long away from being punished. How many times did European diplomats take Armenians rebels to Europe not allowing the Ottoman state to try and punish her own citizens within her own country??? I'll tell ya, it happened A LOT!

Read what British Ambassador Williams said about the Van Revolt:

�There are 400 members of Tashnaks in Van. They are terrorising their own co-religionists and they are provoking Muslim people by committing violent and bloody crimes acts together with the Hinchaks, whom I suppose not more than 50. They do not allow the reforms to be realised. I am sure that if those can be suppressed, the obstacle, hindering the security of the region will be eliminated.�

Armenians wanted Europe to intervene and liberate Armenians. Armenians would do anything to reach that goal.

So plz spare me the "we we're protecting ourselves" story cause Armenian gangs terrorized other Armenians who didn't co-operate with their plan too.

Quote: While to your other 2 questions i answer...About the attempt to killed the sultan... 1.There is enough evidence to support the collaboration of "Young Turks" in the killing attempt. Moreover the attempt was on July 21, 1905...while Sultan Abdul Hamid was already responsible for the death of 200,000 Armenians back in 1894-1897...so don't represent this as if the Sultan was taking revenge from those who tried to murder him...he had already killed 200,000 Armenians...it was the Armenians who were trying to avenge their massacred brothers.

I'm not representing anything. Young Turks and Armenians did co-operate at a certain period but it was Armenians that tried to kill the head of state. I told you before WW1 started cause a head of a certain state was killed...

Quote: I highly Appreciate that you had the courage to admit that the young Turks betrayed both Armenians & Turks..Well done man!I think just by addmiting this we will have more interesting conversations in the future... About the number of Azeri refugees...it not 800,000 Its 500,000 according to the UN..the Azeris enlarge the number a little bit...while the UN confirms that Armenia also has 250,000 Refugees so take both sides of the issue..Armenians are suffering also..the difference is that Armenia gave these refugess citizenship and allowed them to continue their lives while Azerbaijan keeps them in Refugee camps to use them as a political card...while it spends 750million dollars on defence budget instead of trying to feed these people.

We should discuss the Azeri problem later on.

---




?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Quote: Let's make one thing straight first there were 7 Armenian provinces in the Ottoman empire 6 of which has always been part of historical Armenia (Van, Bitlis, Kharput, Erzrum, Diyarbekir, Sivas) and the 7th which is Cilicia where as I said Armenians Migrated forcefully or by will because of the Sejuk invation in the 11th century. As for the Central Anatolia and Istanbul Armenians started to migate there during the Ottoman Empire.

Ok

Quote: Really well I know. But in your Choronology you don't mention how Armenians suffered from the Turks throughout their presence in Asia Minor and claim that suddenly Armenians started killing Turks from nowhere and you present Armenians as traitors. No my friend Turks have brought hell to Armeians from the first day they came to Armenia so if at a point these opressed people start to defend themselves against the injustice you call it a treason. If it is true, if Armenians in fact lived better as a minority in the Ottoman Empire it is because the Ottoman Empire needed the Armenians they used to rob them they used to collect high taxes and Armenians could do nothing that's why unlike Muslems and Jews in Spain Armenians were left "alive" do you kill the cow that gives you a big amount of milk for free and doesn't complaine? but when Armenians started to defend themselves and realized that no we are being abused we could fight back though in very limitted way suddenly it was time to get rid of the "traitor" how dare they get robed be raped be treated unjustly and complaine?

First of all i said i made the chronology myself with limited resources to understand the problem. It's no historical document just a draf copy a student(me) made to understand history better.

Mate as i said before it was the medieval ages, people didn't know better back then. I'm sure Armenians lived horrible things in the hands of the Ottoman Empire but it was the best standards around back then. You see it wasn't the 21st century, back then women with big eyes were killed cause they were thought to have been witches. Women in Europe would spend their first night with landlords not their husbands. Millions of people were slayed for not converting to Christianity in Europe etc. At a time like this why do you complain about the Ottoman Empire which respected your freedom to live, freedom to believe in whatever you want. You are judging Ottoman history with a 21st century mentality.

Alexander the great is not great if you judge him with a 21st century mentality. He is a simple barbarian who invaded foreign lands, burnt down cities and mass murdered people.

Your approach to history is not scientific.

Quote: My friend why don't you understand? Armenians were considered 2nd class citizens and weren't allowed to carry weapons if Armenians had weapons they had to smugle throught the border moreover Armenian properties were under strong suvalence so how armed were these "bendits" if there were "bendits" and how many were they on the other hand Kurds and Turks were allowed to have weapons and the government itself armed them so tell me who had the sources the Kurds and Turks bendits and regular army on one hand or the Armenians on the other and moreover if there were bandits why don't they go after them why put a whole citty undersiege WITH THE HELP OF KURD BENDITS.

Why don't you understand that the Ottoman Empire didn't have much authority in the region? It would take days for Istanbul to hear Armenian gangs took over a city and killed all civilians and civil servants. Even after hearing there wasn't much the state could do cause she feared European & Russian intervention.

Armenians killed other Armenians who wanted to stay loyal to their country. Plz don't act as if Armenian gangs were heroic warriors who were defending their people, they were pawns imposing Russian agenda.

Quote: If it was the Russians or the Ottomas if someone comes to my home and intemidates me and starts tensions with me and kills me i would i would defenatly try to defend myself wouldn't you? and moreover i axpect the government to defend me aswell.

Mate i'm saying the Ottoman state couldn't protect Muslim or Armenian, NO ONE!

If you lived near Istanbul you were safe but if you lived near the border no safety. Same for Muslim and Christian...

Quote: What PEACE are you talking about is robing killing abducting peace or there is a new definition of peace i'm not aare of?

The Ottoman Empire respected Armenians more then the Byzantinians who were CHRISTIAN like you.

Quote: Really? So only when slaugtering Armenians Ottoman Empire had control over West Caucasus or Armenian Provinces if you say that Ottoman Empire wasn't able to stop Kurds then they shouldn't have forbidden Armenians to carry arms so they can at least defend themselves coz the government is not able to do hat job but as i said Kurds were given weapons to kill Armenians. Armenians didn't need "provocation" from the Russians because the situation that they were in, in the Ottoman Empire was "provocation" enough for them to take certain stands. On the other hand Ottoman Empire who is dreaming to get rid of itS Armenian population by opression used these angry Muslems in order to kill more Armenians so these people were thursty to kill christians and Armenians were there so the Ottoman Empire armed them and sent them on the Armenians. so it was win situation for Russia and win situation for the Ottoman Empire. My friend I said Armenian population in 19th became half of the population of the 11th century (the time when Seljuks and Turkic tribes started to come to Asia Minor). I mean within 8 centuries the population instead of increasing it decreased to half. Emmmmmmm Persians, Romans and Greeks were way before last time i checked. What things happen the population of a race decreases by a half during Turkish preasence and you tell me Armenians were living in good conditions? come on. As for the Azeri thing what do you mean what does this have to do with anything? REALLY!!!! WOW!!! So this is your logic because Armenian "Bendits" killed Kurd women children and the elderly (which i totally disagree) the Ottoman Empire sends forces to kill Armenian women chiildren and the elderly. Don't tell me Kurds did that in revenge coz Armenian1 explained enough that first Kurds were armed by the government and moreover the Ottoman Army also participated in the massacures

So it's all a coincidence Armenian rebellions started as Russia's expansionist policies started?

Quote: If you call it treason call it but my point is that is act of some Armenians a reason for the Ottoman to inplement the genocide? Bearing in mind that most of Armenians supported the government and helped them first to get to power and to build the Empire from 1908. And moreover my point is that unlike your governmets' claime that Armenians started revolts within the empire i'm saying that Armenians who were with the government who were the majority by the way stayed in the Empire and helped the government just to be stabbed in the back and those who were agains went to Russia and took Arms but never Sabotaged from within.

It was Armenian intelletuals that interfered with the reforms being input. They thought it they created chaos, the Ottoman Empire would respond harshly and European powers would intervene and liberate Armenians. Right?

Quote: Turks including you always tell me that Armenians were very happy in the Ottoman Empire i have heard people tell me that Armenians even lived better than Turks and Kurds. The Ottoman Empire have done nothing but great things to Armenians as you put in your chrenology but Armenian traitors suddenly out of nowhere they started to revolt they stabbed us in the back started to kill Muslems (as if Kurds and Turks are the only Muslems in the world). So i tell you NO way you are way way wrong. From the first moment of the Turkic tribes came to Armenia, Armenians saw nothing but death Turkic Tribes distroyed infinite number of villages, citties, properties, they abducted children women ....eyc. this is confirmed by Russians, French, the British and not to mention Armenians.

Mate if that was true, there would be no Armenian left in the world. What possibly would stop the worlds strongest country(in the 14th, 15th & 16th century) from killing all Armenians if wanted?

Turks moved Armenians around, true to create a homeland for Turkic tribes but we had no other intension. If that was so, we would have made all Armenians Muslim and lived happily together but that was not our intension.

Quote: Like it or not Armenians lived in the dark till the 19th century. Why was the 19th century so different? simple just because of the French Revolution which effected all of Europe and reached to the Ottoman Empire. Armenians started to have writers like Khachadour Apovian screaming about being Armenian writers like Raffi screaming that Kurds and Turks are better than Armenians for them to come and take hatever they want including women from Armenians in front of the father or the husband it's time to stand up for ourselves now effected from the French revolution Armenians realized that no it is time to realise that we are Armenians it's time to get more in touch with our identity and try to put an end to the injustice that was going on for centuries it's time to cut the hands of the person who steals from me and in the 19th century Armenians started demending better life the ideas that came from the french revolution revolutionized the Armenian villagers mentality first believe it or not he thought it was his duty give the Kurd or Turk Bey or Pasha whatever he want but then he realized that no i don't have to.

Noone denies the impact of nationalism on the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

Quote: Armenians started to smugle weapons coz they weren't allowed to carry any for they were 2nd class citizens to try to defend themselves if the Kurds would come to rob a village the started to that Armenians responded they defended themselves so the "rule" of the centuries was broken Kurds and Turks can't live by sucking Armenians blood. Kurds and Turks weren't the only problem the government used to collect very high amount of taxes from Armenians higher than Kurds and Turks and attempts to reduce these taxes after failing Armenians in Zeitun, Sasun ...etc. Revolted IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE TAXES and protect them from Kurds who constantly raided the villages as i said. An example to show you that Armeniasn didn't intend to gain independence is the Revolt in Zeitun in 1862 It started when the people of Zeitun refused to pay taxes and the local governor Aziz Pasha attecks Zeitun and the surrounding villages he destroys many villages around Zeitun but fails to enter the citty within 2 attepts the four leaders of Zeitun get invited to Istanbul demend to decrease the taxes and have the liberty to learn Armenian in their schools and stop the massacures in the villags around the citty (which they were asking for the first place) in return Zeitun had to give up their arms. What an attept to gain independence.When Sultan Hamid came to power things when from bad to worst and Armenians whith their demends of better life and security became more international in the Congress of Berline though the Ottoman Empire had promissed reformes to the Armenian provinces but as usual these reforms remained on paper and Sultan Hamid realized that the only way to ger rid of the Armenian Quesstion is to get rid of the Armenians. He founded militents called "Hamidiyye" who were made of Kurds and "cherkez" people whos job is to slaughter Armenians from 1894-96 300000 Armenians fell victims of the direct massacures though some places were able to defend themselvessuch as Van, Zeytoun and Sasoun but other places like Istanbul, Drabizon, Sivas (Sepastia), Kharput (Kharpert), Marash, Diyarbekir (Dikranagerd) ....etc. And because of intrests the European nations didn't intervene and British Prime Minister Glavston even have said that his military can't get at the top of Ararad meaning they don't have the intentions to intervene coz they need the Empire more that Armenians.in the beginning of the 20th century the Young Turks came to the Ottoman Empire they offered Armenians to combine efforts with them and throw Hamids Regime and restore the constitution under the "Brotherhood, Equality and Freedom" slogan Armenians believed that these people who have come from and been educated in Europe. and help them in every aspect till they were able to overthrow Hamid in 1908 and reinstate the constitution. Armenian prisoners were released and Armenians years dreamt freedom have come at last but only 1 year later the devistation massacures of Adana shook the nation where 30000 Armenians fell victems the government threw the blame on Sultan Hamid who was thrown down from his position. from 1908 till 1914 Armenians lived there best years under the Ottoman rules all the secret organizations like political parties started working openly which made the Union and Progress covernment to know everything about Armenians ans secretly planned for the Armenian Genocide that occured from 1915 till 1917.

My friend you are totally dismissing the actual intensions of Armenian intellectuals. Why were they funded by Europeans? Cause Europeans care so much about Armenians? No cause they wanted to weaken the Ottoman Empire.

Why is France recognizing the so called Armenian genocide today? Cause they care about Armenians? NO! Cause they want a leverage over Turkey. When Turkey gives what France wants, they suddenly forget about Armenians.

Why is Greece pressuring the European Parliament to force Turkey to recognize the so called Armenian Genocide? Cause they love there poor Armenian brothers? NO! Cause they want a upper hand over Turkey about the Cyprus issue. When we gave them what they want, they said recognizing the so called Armenian genocide is not mandatory anymore.

WAKE UP!

Armenians were used a century ago and is being used again today.

---




?I do not order you to attack, I order you to die.?

Mustafa Kemal ATATܒK

Battle of Gallipoli (25 April 1915)

Quote: The goverment also couldn't stop Russia from supporting armed Armenian gangs from terrorizing the Muslim population.

If this is your answer to all the things i mentioned..than you agree with me that the Ottomans were supporting the Kurds to massacre Armenians,that the Armenians were being opressed by the gov't...and all that i had written...Is this really you answer to all that?If you agree with this..and all that is true..than i couldn't care less if the Russians were aiding the Armenians or not...i believe that in a situation like this I would accept aid even from SATAN itself to save my people.

Quote: Read what British Ambassador Williams said about the Van Revolt

You want me to accept a fact from your greatest ally...good then!! Rememeber what the British PM D'Israeli said on March 27, 1878(in the British Parliament)..."Austria shall find a solution to the Bulgarian issue...for us, It is important to find means to defend ourselves against the ARMENIAN DANGER"... Britain was your greatest ally and didn't give a wooden nickel if all the Armenians in Anatolia perished as long as its interests weren't damaged..from that point on The Ottoman empire took the role of Massacring Armenians..while Britain covered up the issue in Europe saying Reforms will take place..continued with the same lies,just to avoid the European public from finding out what was really going on in Anatolia...However when news of the Armenian massacres taking place reached Europe British ministers started protesting to D'Israeli that an innocent people was being massacred and asked him for intervention...That cold blooded animal replied "The British Navy cannot climb the Ararat mountain to save these Armenians". So do your research right and find out what happened.

The only weapons that the Armenians used to have were being Transfered from PERSIA not RUSSIA...Armenians in Europe used to send money to Iran from where small amount of weapons could be smuggled into Anatolia...

Moreover, when you talk about Russia helping Armenians..im afraid your dreaming...Russia in the end of 18th century & in the words of LOBANOV (Russian Minister)..was "interested with the Balkans & An Armenia WITHOUT ARMENIANS"...Russians didn't have the sypathy you think during the reign of Czar Nicolas II..so get your facts right...

I don't need to remind you that the 1st Armenian armed "milita" was formed in 1890...while Armenian opressions had started back in 1860-70s...when Armenians were being massacred..that's why Europe continously called for reforms & protection of Armenians from Kurds & Cherkez who were attacking armenian vilages, killing woman and children..while the Ottoman gov't just watched.
Check this out:
Armenians were being killed everyday by Kurds, Cherkez, Bandits, maily supported by the government during 1860-70s...that's why in 1878 both in San Stefano & Berlin Europe called for PROTECTION of Armenians form these attacks...however the Attacks didnt stop...
In 1890 The 1st Armenian Militia was formed..
Meaning after more than a decade of being murdered and killed, Armenians started forming militias to defend themselves..why don't you ask yourself..why didnt the gov't do anything during those 15 years to stop Armenian tortures...
The so called "Armenian Rebelions" started in 1894...while the attacks & massacres had started much earlier...what do you expect Armenians to do?They were being murdered for 15years without any responce while the Ottoman gov't not only watched but supported the attacks...what would you do honestly??Wouldn't you start to fight back?

Welcome Ixtanbul.


"First of all i said i made the chronology myself with limited resources to understand the problem. It's no historical document just a draf copy a student(me) made to understand history better.

Mate as i said before it was the medieval ages, people didn't know better back then. I'm sure Armenians lived horrible things in the hands of the Ottoman Empire but it was the best standards around back then. You see it wasn't the 21st century, back then women with big eyes were killed cause they were thought to have been witches. Women in Europe would spend their first night with landlords not their husbands. Millions of people were slayed for not converting to Christianity in Europe etc. At a time like this why do you complain about the Ottoman Empire which respected your freedom to live, freedom to believe in whatever you want. You are judging Ottoman history with a 21st century mentality.
Alexander the great is not great if you judge him with a 21st century mentality. He is a simple barbarian who invaded foreign lands, burnt down cities and mass murdered people.
Your approach to history is not scientific."

Once again you have missed my point. First of all my point is that throughout your chrenology you say that Ottomans granted this and that to Armenians and made life living in heaven for Armenians but those evil ruthless Armenians suddenly inspite of our great gestures started to kill Turks, Kurds.....etc. When I said that you are wrong Armenians have suffered alot from Turks and i gave you example you tell me you have limited resources? come on at least while looking at something be fair don't post anything before you do better research and surprisingly your limited sourses have alot of information about good things that the Ottoman Empire has done to the Armenians and not even 1 negative thing come on as i said please be fair in the first place.
Moreover if it was the medieval ages or not you agree that Armenians weren't living in Heaven in the Ottoman Empire or even before and you agree that Armenian villages and cities were constantly raded distroyed by the Ottomans women children were abducted ....etc. all in all Armenians were opressed by Kurds and Turks Yeah? so we made a progress we agreed on one thing that's great. Let me continue from this point where we both agree on. As i have said this in my previouse post, this situation continued till the 19th century and suddenley things start to change for the Armenians BECAUSE OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. Educated Armenains came from Europe and started to educate people with the ideas they have learned from the French Revolution. Human rights living better life have defferent kinds of freedom. Now I'm not telling that Muslem villagers were in good shape they were just like any peasent in the world they were opressed but Armenains because they were christians they were further opressed by those Kurd and Turk citizens because they had weapons and Armenains didn't have any. So there was 2 things first get rid of the opression that was imposed by the Kurds and Turks citizens Bendits and opression imposed by the government.


"It would take days for Istanbul to hear Armenian gangs took over a city and killed all civilians and civil servants."
Really?????????? can you give me an example of a CITY that was attacked by Armenains and ALL of it's civilians and civil servants were killed. Do you know how much effort do you need to do a task like that? do you know how many weapons and how much bullets do you need to accomlish a think like that bearing in mind that Armenians weren't allowed to carry weapons. Weapons were smuggled from Iran. And Kurds and Turks were permitted to carry weapons they had the support of the government and they were armed by the government. COME ON!

" Even after hearing there wasn't much the state could do cause she feared European & Russian intervention."
WOW!!! REALLY???
I gave an example of Zeitun in my previouse post yeah? If Armenians refusing to pay taxes because they were incredibly high made the government to siege the citty and massacure Armenian population in the nearby villages what about if they have raded a city and killed ALL the civillians? For an instance let's say that the Ottoman Empire "feared" Russian intervention. They feared European intervention too? the Strong nations of Europe (Britain, France) were the closest allies to the Ottoman Empire they had bigger intrets in Africa the Suez Canal not to mention they needed the Ottoman Empire to keep the russians away now who would they be with Armenians or the Ottoman Empire?


"Mate i'm saying the Ottoman state couldn't protect Muslim or Armenian, NO ONE!
If you lived near Istanbul you were safe but if you lived near the border no safety. Same for Muslim and Christian"

First of all you are underestimation alot alot alot the Ottoman authority if the Sultan was in Istanbul this doesn't mean that Ottmans didn't have governers in the provinces supported by the Ottoman Army. You are on the verge to say that Russian solders controled the Armenian provinces be realistic. Moreover is Diyarbekir, Kharput, Sivas Adana considered border? what about the Arebian peninsula it was way further than Istanbul but the Empire had total control over it.
Moreover, even if the Ottoman Empire couldn't protect it's citizens why is that whenever Armenians "moved" a little demanding better life suddenly they would see the Ottoman Army with the help of the Kurd, Cherkez, Turk bendits (which were part of the complaint in the first place) against them?


"The Ottoman Empire respected Armenians more then the Byzantinians who were CHRISTIAN like you."
Weren't you the one who gave the the midle age lecture Byzantians were even a couple of centuries before the Ottoman Empire. But this excuse works for the Ottoman Empire yeah? Man this is what Turkey is suffering you blame all others man for once (not only you it's more about your government) admit that you have done wrong and apologize.



"So it's all a coincidence Armenian rebellions started as Russia's expansionist policies started?"
Man i have told you before Armenian rebellions in 1862 started because of opression high taxes lack of protection of the Ottoman Government against Kurds and Turkish bandits. And how did you come to this conclusion from the things that i have written and moreover if that is your answer than you are agreeing what i have said you are just trying to justify them. Good try and thanks for agreeing.


"It was Armenian intelletuals that interfered with the reforms being input. They thought it they created chaos, the Ottoman Empire would respond harshly and European powers would intervene and liberate Armenians. Right?"
and which intelectuals would they be? how did they interfered with the reforms if the government said ok you may write anything you want in the paper without governments interference the intellectuals went and said NO you musr pt some limitations to the things I write yeah? Be real. and moreover from 1908 till 1912-13 some kinds of reforms took place as i have said before and Armenians especially on the cultural and political level had some kind of freedom.


"Mate if that was true, there would be no Armenian left in the world. What possibly would stop the worlds strongest country(in the 14th, 15th & 16th century) from killing all Armenians if wanted?"
As i told you Ottoman Empire didn't want to kill the Armenians completely because they needed them. Remember the cow example that i gave?

"Turks moved Armenians around, true to create a homeland for Turkic tribes but we had no other intension. If that was so, we would have made all Armenians Muslim and lived happily together but that was not our intension."
Although before 19th century and especially before Sultan Hamid Ottoman Empire didn't have the intention to exterminate Armenians because of the reasons mentioned before, the Ottoman Empire throughtout the century have tried to weaken Armenians to have full control on them by opression and as you said it yourself "Turks moved Armenians around, true to create a homeland for Turkic tribes". As for making Armenians muslems man we have proved many many many times in history that that option is an impossibility. It is easier to extermoinate Armenians or make them to change their religion or identity.


"Noone denies the impact of nationalism on the decline of the Ottoman Empire."
Nationalism came in the second half even at the end of the 19th century in the beginning of the 19th century it was all about ending opression better life for peasents protection from the government.


"My friend you are totally dismissing the actual intensions of Armenian intellectuals. Why were they funded by Europeans? Cause Europeans care so much about Armenians? No cause they wanted to weaken the Ottoman Empire."
Who were funded by Europeans? this is the first time that i'm hearing this. Moreover I have told you Europeans didn't care about Armenians in fact they were in allience with the Ottoman Empire.


At the end i like to ask you: why is that till 1990's the Genocide issue wasn't discussed? why is that Turkey only recently is talking about joint comissions and stuf to look what happend? the reason is USSR since Armenia was in the USSR and Turkey was the closest ally to USA Turks were very successful to ban the discussion of this issue in international forums and organisation. A proof of that was found in the US archives a year ago when they found discussions happened in 1974 between Turkish and US deplomats for US to put pressure in the UN to ban the discussion of the Armenian Genocide to happen in the UN. But now since Armenia is independant state and throughout 90 years we have integrated in European and US political institutions and Turkeys position has weakened after the disintegration of the USSR we are haven'g more "victories" but this doesn't mean that European intrests don't count.

Մենք մեզ ոչ մէկից չենք գեռադասում:
Բայց մեզ էլ գիտենք.
Մեզ Հայ են ասում:
Եւ ինչու պիտի չհպարտանանք . . .
Կանք:
Պիտի լինենք:
Ու դեռ . . . շատանանք:

Պարոյր Սեւակ

Hi all im new here...interesting topic looking forward to posting...im not gonna write anything right now cause im studying for my exams..but just wanted to say good job to the members who are having a serious discussion (cause truth about this subject is rarely u see a turk and an armenian discussing it in a civil manner) c ya all soon!

Let the women cry, let the men fear, Odin has left the halls of valhalla!

Armenian1 here is a synopsis of some of the information ,some directly from reference points from none turk or pro turk scources for which if required Ican supply the reference pointS although I to have a life also,wife family,business,studies,training etc
As im torn torn between out debate and day to day living,not easy with family running around as you can appreciate excuse the spelling and gramaphicle errors here and there.
I have attempted to clearly answer your points as you left them for me to ponder all I ask is, that you read and contemplate through them thourghly.and please check out all the links that I have taken time to provide.

_____________________________________________________________
1.Stop whining about Armenians being with the Nazis...in 1940 Armenia was already in the USSR & the Armenian Army was fighting within the Soviet Army against the Nazi Forces.
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Yes the Armenians were in the USSR armen1 however, many volunteered willingly to join the nazi and some Naturally, not all Armenians were sympathetic. Brave journalist Varian Fry, with the aid of fellow Americans in Europe, saved two thousand Jews, for example. And many Soviet Armenians fought against the Nazis, as Germany invaded the Soviet homeland in 1941.
There were also many Armenians in the Caucasus region who joined the Nazis, hoping for Armenia to be freed from the Soviet "yoke." But there were also Georgians and Azeris who did the same, probably not realizing they would be substituting one tyrannical master for another. These Armenians, as far as I'mconcerned, still off the hook.

Aryan way is still alive check out http://www.armenianaryans.com/ and further reference points about garegin Njde http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garegin_Njdeh


Have you heard of Garegin Ter-Harutiunian,? he came to collaborate with [[Nazism|Nazi]] Germans during [[WWII]]. He was arrested in [[Sofia]], [[Bulgaria]] in 1944 and sent to [[Moscow]], then to [[Yerevan]], then to [[Vladimir]], where he died in prison.

A controversial figure, he left the Dashnak party. A staunch Anti-Communist, he came to collaborate with Nazi Germans during WWII. He was successfully able to prove to the Nazi Germans that Armenians were of the Aryan race as well. He even proved to the Nazi Germans that Armenians had more Aryan blood than the Germans. His endeavor helped stop the Nazi Germans from mass murdering the Armenian people. He was arrested in Sofia, Bulgaria in 1944 and sent to Moscow, then to Yerevan, then to Vladimir, where he died

Reference from check it out http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=3438816

Yes armen he saved his people from being butcherd in return for collaboration with the Nazis,100 percent and this reference is about nazism
Christopher J. Walker�s "Armenia-The Survival of a Nation"
(page 357, para 2)
"...Nevertheless there remains the incostestable fact that relations between the Nazis and Daschnaks living in occupied areas were close and active. On 30 december 1941 an Armenian batallion was created by a decision of the Wehrmacht, known as the Armenian 812th Battalion. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians from the prisoners of war takenby the Nazis in their sweep eastwards.

Early on the total number was 8000;this number later grew to 20000. The 812. th Batallion was operationalin the Crimea and the North Caucasus.Ayear later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian NationalCouncil was granted official recognition byAlfred Rosenberg, the German ministerof the occupied areas. The Council president was Professor Ardasher Abeghian,its vice-president Abraham Guilkhandanian and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian.From that date until thje end of 1944 it published a weekly journal,Armenian, edited by Viken Shantn who also broadcast on Radio Berlin...

What was the motive for the collaboration in the occupied areas ? It is possible to see it as a purely vengeful desire to retake Armenia from the Bolsheviks..... There is in the untutored mind a tendency to class Armenians and Jews together (offensive to both peoples); and the malevolent paranoia of the Nazis might have manifested itself against Armenians as well as Jews. Hence it was important to prove to the Nazis that the Armenians were Aryans.With the aid of Dr.Paul Rohrbach they seem to have achieved this. The Nazis did not persecute Armenians, just for being Armenians, in the occupied lands..."

In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._


The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4]

Wholly opportunistic the Armenians have been variously pro-Nazi,
pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Armenia, pro-Arab, pro-Jewish, as well as
anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Communist, and anti-Soviet - whichever was expedient." [1].

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2.Armenia had 600,000 Soldiers in the soviet Army...of which 300,000 were killed in actions against the Nazis saving Europe from extrimism. What did your country do to inhibit spread of Nazism??(hmm wait...they waited like hungry wolves for the Nazi Army to weaken the Soviets so that you can enter Caucasia...yup great job!!...unfortunately the Soviets kicked the Nazis butt in Europe...Do you know what it means to give 300,000 Martyrs when the whole Armenian populataion at that time was around 3 million?It mean you're sacrificing 10%
of your popultaion for a cause that has got nothing to do with you.
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Well the evidence is overwhelming armen1 maybe we didn�t have as much to do with the spread of Nazism ,however, as far as im concerned not only did Armenians collaborate in bed with the Russians but germans.

Members of Armenian-German Union and Georgian-German union met Alfred Rosenberg in 1941, and he had promised them "when Armenia and Georgia are free from bolshevik rule, with German support Armenian and Georgian Armies will start a Holy war against Turkey, from Europe Wehrmacht, SS, Bulgarian, and Greek divisions will attack Turkey too". And I really believe this, because during WWII Reich wasn't allie of Turkey, and there is the name of operation can be scourced also.

May 10, 1933: The Nazis burnt all books written by Jewish authors in Berlin and throughout Germany. The Ottomans never burned books written by Armenian authors.
Israel Ambassador to Armenia, Ms. Rivki Cohen, said a parallel must not be drawn between the Holocaust and the Armenian "genocide." (Yerevan, Feb. 9, 2002.) Armenian parliament Deputy Ovaness Ovanissian replied: "A top-rank diplomat like her has no right to make such statements."

September 15, 1935: The Nazi controlled German parliament passed what became known as the "Nuremberg Laws." The Nazis disenfranchised all Jews. The Ottomans never did such a thing to Armenians.

March 12, 1938: Germany invaded Austria. This was the beginning of Nazi conquest of European countries and total extermination of Jews. The Ottomans did not invade other nations during World War I that the Armenians complain about.

October 28, 1938: the first Jews were deported just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never deported anyone because of race. What the Ottomans did was deport Armenians from only one part of their empire for being disloyal citizens who were actively helping the invading Russians. The Jews never helped anyone invade Germany. There is no way anyone can compare the Jews to Armenians!
However, in 1938 when the first Jews were deported, Armenians were voluntarily joining the Nazis to help them create the real genocide of the 20th century. The evidence is absolute that more than 100,000 Armenians joined Hitler. The evidence is also absolute that Armenian politicians took part in Hitler�s racial purity campaigns.

November 9, 1938: This is the date that became known as the "Crystal Night" because Nazi mobs throughout Germany attacked Jewish synagogues and stores. The Muslim Ottoman government never attacked "Christian" Armenian churches and stores. There is no way to compare this German action to the Ottomans. Today, in modern day Turkey, there are more Armenian churches operating that in Armenia.

November 12, 1938: German Jews were fined 1 billion marks solely because of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.
November 15, 1938: All Jewish students were expelled from all German schools for the sole reason of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

December 3, 1938: Hitler issued a decree for compulsory Aryan ownership of all Jewish enterprises and shops throughout Germany and the occupied countries. The Ottomans never did such a thing�ever!

July 4, 1939: Hitler decreed that German Jews were prohibited from holding government jobs. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

July 21, 1939: Adolph Eichmann was appointed head of the Prague office of Jewish Emigration. The Ottomans never set up such a system in their lands or anywhere else as the Nazis did.

September 1, 1939: Hitler issued a decree that Jews in Germany were forbidden to be outdoors after 8 P.M. in winter and 9 P.M in summer. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

September 23, 1939: German Jews were forbidden to own wireless radios. The Ottomans never did such things to the Armenians
October 6, 1939: Hitler issues a proclamation for the isolation of Jews from the German population. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

October 12, 1939: Jews were removed from Vienna, Austria for the sole reason they were Jews. The reason the Ottomans removed Armenians from eastern Anatolia was because they were disloyal and were helping the invading Russians. The Nazi acts do not compare to the Ottoman actions. For anyone to compare Nazi Germany to the Ottoman Empire is to compare an apple to a fence post.

February 12, 1940: The Nazis deported the first Jews from Germany just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

August 15, 1940: Adoplh Eichmann presented what became known as the Madagascar Plan for the removal of the entire Jewish race. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

November 15, 1940: The Nazis sealed off the Jewish "ghetto" in Warsaw, Poland.

March 7, 1941: Jews were compelled to provide forced (slave) labor for the Nazis. The Ottomans never did such a thing to the Armenians.

July 31, 1941: The Nazis issued the order to remove all Jews from German occupied territory in Europe. The Ottomans did not attack nor occupy any other nations� land during World War I and there is no way to compare the Nazi action to that taken by the Ottomans against disloyal Armenians. The Nazis were on the offense capturing other people�s lands while the Ottomans were defending their empire from the invading Russians who were being helped by Ottoman citizen Armenians.

September 1, 1941: This is the date Nazis decreed that all Jews must wear a yellow star. The Ottomans never required the Armenians to wear the Christian cross as contrasted to the yellow star of David the Germans forced the Jews to wear.

September 17, 1941: marks the date the Nazis began the general deportation of all German Jews. The Ottomans never attempted to deport all Armenians. There is no way to compare the German acts to the Ottomans�.

September 23, 1941: The Nazis began tests for gassing Jews at Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

January 20, 1942: This is the date of the Wannsee Conference where the decision for the "Final Solution" to mass murder the entire Jewish population was made. The Ottomans never had such a conference and there never was an Ottoman "Final Solution" for all Armenians.

March 29, 1942: The Nazis sent the fist train filled with Jews from Paris, France to Auschwitz.

April 20, 1942: The Nazis issued a decree to ban all Jews from using public transportation. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

September 18, 1942: The Nazis reduced food rations of Jews in Germany. The Ottomans never did such a thing to Armenians throughout their empire.

October 4, 1942: All Jews in German concentration camps were ordered to be sent to Auschwitz. The Ottomans did not have concentration camps nor did they use gas chambers to murder Armenians as the Nazis did to the Jews.

December 15, 1942: The Armenian National Council was given official Nazi recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German minister of Nazi occupied areas. The Armenians had made a consecrated effort to prove to Hitler that they were Aryans like he was and they were so accepted. The proof is the Armenians were never persecuted in any Nazi occupied lands because they were Armenians.

The Armenians made radio broadcasts from Berlin supporting Hitler�s Aryan and racially pure beliefs. Several Armenian newspapers also supported Hitler�s ethnic/racial pure beliefs during World War II. The Ottomans never did such things. The actual proof is that during World War II the Turks opposed Hitler while the Armenians within Turkey supported first Hitler and then switched sides to the Russians when they saw Germany losing the war.

February 27, 1943: Jews who were forced to work in the German armaments industry were sent to Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

March 13, 1943: The Nazis opened their first new crematorium at Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

April 14, 1943: The Nazis began transporting Jews from Athens, Greece to Auschwitz. The Ottomans never did such a thing.

April 30, 1945: Approximately 33,000 inmates were freed from Nazi concentration camps by American troops. The United States was never at war with the Ottoman government in 1915 or ever. There were no concentration camps used by the Ottomans.

November 20, 1945: The Nuremberg International Tribunal began to try Nazi leaders for war crimes. There was no such international tribunal who tried the Ottomans for war crimes after World War I. The truth is the British and French did arrest a number of Ottoman citizens after World War I ended. After holding these men in prison for some two years each and every Ottoman citizen was released as the British could find no evidence that they had committed any war crimes.
After World War I the Paris Peace Conference was held. The Armenians presented their massacre claims to this conference who heard them out and considered the evidence presented by the Armenians. The Peace Conference rejected the Armenians� massacre claims and gave them nothing for damages. The Armenians refused to accept the Peace Conference�s "NO" answer and again asked to be heard and to present more evidence. The Paris Peace Conference agreed to allow the Armenians to present their massacre claims a second time and again�for a second time the Paris Peace Conference rejected the Armenians� claim against the Ottoman Empire and gave them nothing.
The Armenians have had their day in court not once, but twice, and they offered their self-called proof twice and each time they received nothing. Today the Armenians want land and reparations from Turkey, which didn�t even come into existence until 1923�8 years after the self anointed Armenian genocide bogus claim. The Armenian government demands today that the Turkish government admit to this fake genocide claim. The question cries out to be answered: Why should the Turks admit to any such thing? When will the Armenians work for peace in their region of the world rather than starting war after war and making false demands upon its neighbors?
The rest of the story is simply this:

(1) The Armenians have had their false claims of a massacre against the Ottoman Empire heard in a friendly court not once but twice. The Armenians have twice had their day in the proper courts. Each time the friendly court rejected the Armenians� own evidence. In plain language, the Armenians presented their claims. The losing World War I Ottoman government did not appear to contest the Armenian claims. The truth is the Armenians, not once, but twice lost their uncontested day in court.

(2) Today, the Armenians dare to compare their self-anointed bogus "genocide" claim to what the Nazis did to the Jews during the World War II era. The above listed examples are but a few of the many that are in the history books to contrast and prove (as proof certain) there is no real world way to compare the Nazis to the Ottomans as the Armenians try to do.

(3) The rest of the story, based on actual historical evidence, proves than more than 100,000 Armenians voluntarily joined the Nazis beginning in 1935 to help create an ethnic/racial pure state. Today in Armenia, the Armenian government honors one of its Nazi Armenian generals of World War II fame. There is a youth leadership Institute bearing his name. The question must be asked just what are the Armenians teaching their children in the name of this Nazi who helped exterminate so may Jews?

(4) Armenians produced a weekly radio program in Berlin titled "Armenia." This Armenian radio program supported Hitler�s Aryan ethnic/racial pure state. Armenian newspapers also supported Hitler and his Nazis.

(5) Armenian leadership conspired with Hitler�s top lieutenants and the end result was that Armenians were labeled by the Nazis as "racially pure." After Hitler and his Nazis lost the war Armenians switched sides and forged a document to falsely claim Hitler said at one time "Who remembers the Armenians?" The truth is that Hitler and his Nazis remembered the Armenians and they were so recognized by him as fellow Aryans and together they committed a genocide of the Jews.

(6) The Paris Peace Conference, at the time, immediately after World War I heard all the evidence and made decisions about what was right and wrong. Since the Paris Peace Conference at the time rejected Armenian claims�what right does any nation or group now have to reopen this historical period of time to give Armenians damages from a country that wasn�t even in existence until 8 years after the false claim was first made? To grant the Armenian "wish" of condemning modern day Turkey of committing a genocide is just not justice in today�s world.
Christopher Walker, a pro-Armenian researcher, admits that the relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the Nazi occupied areas were very close and active. The Armenians of Bucharest in May 1935 for example attacked the local Jews. Walker summarise the close ties between the Nazis and Dashnag Armenians:

there remains the incontestable fact that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnags living in the occupied areas were close and active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was created by a decision of the Wehrmacht, known as the Armenian 812th Battalion. It was commanded by Dro, and was made of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians from the prisoners of war taken by the Nazis in their sweep eastwards. Early on the total number was 8,000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in the Crimea and the North Caucasus."

Apart from the assaults against the Jews, the Armenians also published a German language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies. In these publications the radical Armenians supported the Nazi doctrines and justified the anti-Semitic Nazi policies.

Though pro-Armenian researcher Christopher J. Walker admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis, some of the Armenian authors may refuse these claims. However the Armenian periodicals of that period provide abundant proof for the Nazi-Armenian collaboration. For example the Armenian-language daily Hairenik on 17 September 1936 tried to legitimate the Nazi administration:

��and came (to power) Adolph Hitler after Herculean struggles. He spoke to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the fountain of his national genius�
Similarly Hairenik named the Jews as �poisonous elements� in its 19 and 20 August 1936 issue:
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews) when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During a surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing..
Heres another none biased scouce http://www.atmg.org/NaziArmenians.html
Youll find further overwhelming info.

ABOUT THE JEWS AND TURKS AND GREEKS.

The August 9, 1935 issue of the Hairenik Weekly published a vitriol about �the Jewish controlled film industry�, then ascribed the massacres of the Jews by the Greeks and Armenians in Salonica to the Jewish love of gain.

Yes greeeks were ant isomatic�.and During World War II, while the Turkish Government was giving asylum to many Jews fleeing from Hitler's tyranny, anti-Semitism engulfed the Armenian circles in the Nazi-occupied territories. A publication of the Armenian Information Service in New York, entitled Dashnak Collaboration With The Nazi Regime, purports to show that Armenian sympathies with racism had reached dangerous proportions. The following quotation from the Armenian daily Hairenik of 19, 20 and 21 August 1936 exposes something much more than prejudice and bigotry:

� quot :Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers... are compelled to create an atmosphere of internationalism and world citizenship in order to preserve their race...As the British use battleships to occupy lands.. Jews use internationalism or communism as a weapon..Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease. And when it becomes necessary for a people to eradicate them...these attempts are regarded revolutionary. During a surgical operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing...Under such conditions, dictatorships seem to have a role of saviour ..�

Quoted by James Mandalian: Who are the Dashnags?, Boston, Hairenik Press, 1944, p 13-4.

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3.Josef Moisevich Kogan, himself a Jewish Red Army soldier captured by German forces, noted the help he received by an Armenian doctor in the 812th when he was snuck into the battalion itself and later escaped with the help of Dutch underground resistance members
________________________________________________________ARMEN1.what your attempt at justifying the Armenian goodwill toward the jews ,in my opinion ,is nothing special ,is nothing in particular to raise ones eyebrows over or be in aw, whilst your men were being led by �DRO� a THE MAIN figure in the demise of the jews together in collaboration with the SS/NAZIS,the turks were giving them a reassurance of safty within boundries of turkey .
You are aware of all this anyhow ,if your not just check out
Armenian Legion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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4.Not to mention the Armenians who fought side by side with their European brothers in the French underground Resistance as Missak Manouchian(who was one of the leaders in the French Underground).
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As for the armens in the resistance , there were two the rest comprised Europeans in the FTP-MOI and they did much damage I admit towards they played there and were part within the � bigger cog� toward destablisation of the Nazis,however this was just a mere scratch compared to the armens whom were pro nazi and voluntarily aided the collaboration.
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5.The Armenian Battalion was formed of Armenian Prisoners of War who were forcefully enrolled in the Nazi Army however they played a great role in helpinh Jewish prisoners escape...this lead to their transfer to defensive posts in the Netherlands...The battalion wa given only 1 job...when the Nazi forces reach Caucsia..they had to enter Armenia and submit it to Nazi Rule...However the Nazis failed.Why?Because the Soviet Armies crushed them...Also just for your knowledge...The first division that entered Berlin was the "Tamanian Division" which was the Armenian Division in the Soviet Army. So before you talk about things that you don't have a clue about i suggest you research the writings of Auron Yair(Israeli),Alexander Dallin(American),Hans Houterman(American jew
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I am totally disagreeing with everything you claim here ,I understand that you feel you must defend your nation however it is complete dishonesty and and lie if your saying that armens �back then� were forced into fighting along side the Nazis ,that my friend is a crock of **** ,why are you denying your nations part Iin this???
I UNDERSTAND AS IVE WRITTEN PREVIOUSLY AND ABOVE,THAT ARMENS WERE RECTRUCTED AND ALSO AM AWARE THAT YOU DONT GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING AND AS I MENTIONED MUCH WAS PROMIESED TO ARMENS FOR BETRAYING THE JEWS AND AIDING THE NATZIS

Look armen1 it completely baffles me how for thousands of years of living together WITH THE TURKS your people could turn and desert there posts JUST LIKE THAT ??take up arms against the turks kill ,and do a 360 towards us when they most needed your PEOPLE AND whom were living within the same boundries ,whom you were citizens of and forcibly, maintainED THE trail of destruction toward the jews, together SIDE BY SIDE with the Nazis ,to me it is a lie and a good one that your properganda machin is working at full to maintain .

The money generated from the church is going bak to funding further
Bogus claims and the actual truth is still being denied .

Here are some articles worth reading as they outline that antisomatic behaviour was alive and kicking amongst Armenians established by armens


This infamous 812th Battalion later developed into a so-called "Armenian Legion" of 20,000-strong with the efforts of Alfred Muradian, a German-Armenian, and by Armik Jamalian, the son of the Arshak Jamalian, the Foreign Minister of the short-lived Armenian Republic. The troops of this Legion were trained and led by the SS and its Security Division S.D.


Starting in the summer of 1942, a twenty-five years old Armenian by the name Suren Begzadian Paikhar organized and led the Armenian National Socialist (Nazi) movement called Hossank (Lightening), which gained a considerable following among Armenian youth in German-occupied Europe and to some degree in Turkey too. On December 15, 1942,
these Armenian-Nazis and their supporters in Germany coalesced into the Armenian National Council under the direction of professor Ardeshir Abegian, and the vice-president Abraham Chulkandanian, and several old Dashnak guerillas, like Vahan Papazian and Karakin Nezhdeh, who were the veterans of the Turkish wars in the Eastern Anatolia after the World War I. Blessed by Alfred Rosenberg, this organization spew forth anti-Semitic and racist vituperations through the broadcasts of the Radio Berlin, and their weekly journal Armenian, published until the end of 1944, and edited by Viken Shant, son of the another well-known Dashnak leader Levon Shant. Suren Begzadian Paikhar and some Hossank followers worked as commentators/ announcers in the French and Armenian radio services of the Nazi Ministry of Propaganda under Goebbels. In those programs Paikhar was usually introduced as the Fuhrer of the Armenian people. (Patrik von zur Muhlen, Zwischen Hakenkreuz und Sowjetstern - Dusseldorf, Droste, 1971, pp. 105-106)
The Armenian general Karekin Nezhdeh also founded the racist Armenian Tseghagron movement, through which the Armenian youths flocked to the SS and the other elite Nazi military forces. (Karekin Nazhdeh by James Mandalian - The Armenian Review I, 1958)

THERE YOU HAVE IT What can I say there is irrefutable historical evidence outlining that upto 100 thousnd armes volunteeeered to help round up the jews ,for inhialation and your people are screaming at us for a so called activity that Armenians far surpass us in experience ,THE TRUTH IS ALL THAT MATTERS ,AND WHEN YOU REPEAT A LIE ENOUGH TIMES,YOU YOURSELF START TO BELIEVE IT i can continue with my findings and post however i may get into a little bit of trouble for my lenthy post.ENOUGH
THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL ANDOUR ADVERSARIES WILL BE BEGGING FOR FORGIVNESS ,

1. The will of the Armenian nation is represented by the official stance of the Armenian government and the Armenian Nation�The Armenian Battalion was formed of 18,000 Troops of which almost half were war prisoners�which didn�t have much say in it. Moreover, the Nazi Army had British, French, & even Slav Battalions who were more or less forcibly or, in other cases willingly joined the Nazi Army�this doesn�t prove that the British, French, or the Slavs supported the Nazism. The French even formed a Nazi-French government during WWII...whose army fought alongside the German forces in the Middle East against the British. This doesn�t mean that the French people supported Nazism. There were thousands of French troops located in the Middle east belonging who aided the pro-Nazi revolution in Iraq & even supplied German fighters with Airfields & ammunition...does this mean that the French people fought for Nazism? Although the Nazi Army had thousands of both British & French troops�the official position of these nations remain the official stance of their government & not what these volunteers did or didn�t do.

When you talk about Aryanism�you have to remember Armenians belong to this race�and we�re not ashamed of our Race�It�s very natural to find a site on the net talking about Armenian Aryans�You keep talking about Pan-Turkism & Turcik union & you have worked for centuries to eliminate the Armenian nation to have a border with your Turkish brothers�so why does �Armenian Aryans� sound so much strange to you�is There a nation who�s ashamed of its race? There are sites in Russia that call for burning of Europe and domination of slavs, there are sites in the US that call for the elimination of black people or muslims. This doesn�t mean that their gov�ts support them. This doesn�t mean that Americans or Russians are all Racists who aren�t worth anyting.

2. The Evidence is clear? Armenians collaborated with Nazis? WOW!! and no one else on this planet was able to come to this conclusion b4 u? So what you just concluded that 300,000 Armenian soldiers died for nothing huh? Or the thousands of Armenians who fought in the French underground resistance gave their life for nothing? Let me tell you something�off record�you know why Armenians are respected everywhere? It�s because they never hesitate to consider the place they live in their homeland�and are ready to die for it as if it was Armenia. That�s why Armenians are respected in Europe, US, Arab world,�cause in every major battle or resistance they have had their role fighting alongside their brother in that Army�& the official Armenian Stance will always remain against Nazism or any kind of racism�It�s not strange if Armenians in Germany during that time fought in the German army�after all Germany was their homeland. But if you go to Europe today and tell that Armenians collaborated with Nazis you�ll probably get a tomato in your face. I also suggest that you check out why Jews name Armenians �The Righteous of Nations��they gave Armenians this name for the support they had in supporting & saving Jews during WWII. Research about this.

May 10,1933�The Nazis burnt all books written by Jewish authors in Berlin and throughout Germany. The Ottomans never burned books written by Armenian authors�
...Armenian publications had been already forbidden in the Ottoman Empire in 1879 by a decree from the Sultan�.also the word �Armenia� was forbidden from use.

September 15, 1935: The Nazi controlled German parliament passed what became known as the "Nuremberg Laws." The Nazis disenfranchised all Jews. The Ottomans never did such a thing to Armenians.
......Armenians had been considered 2nd class citizens & were used to pay double taxes�one to the gov�t the other to the local Kurdish tribe by an order from the ottoman gov�.

March 12, 1938: Germany invaded Austria. This was the beginning of Nazi conquest of European countries and total extermination of Jews. The Ottomans did not invade other nations during World War I that the Armenians complain about�
....what�s the German attack got todo with the Jewish holocaust.

October 28, 1938: the first Jews were deported just because they were Jews. The Ottomans never deported anyone because of race. What the Ottomans did was deport Armenians from only one part of their empire for being disloyal citizens who were actively helping the invading Russians. The Jews never helped anyone invade Germany. There is no way anyone can compare the Jews to Armenians!
However, in 1938 when the first Jews were deported, Armenians were voluntarily joining the Nazis to help them create the real genocide of the 20th century. The evidence is absolute that more than 100,000 Armenians joined Hitler. The evidence is also absolute that Armenian politicians took part in Hitler�s racial purity campaigns�......
HeHe�...100,000? Evidence? Wow�great research�I suggest you show to the world how you came up with this number�...Armenian massacres started much before the WWI�so Russian invasion doesn�t have anything to do with it. One more question. If what you�re saying is true well�why were the Armenian that lived on the Mediterrenean were deported as well?�moreover�1895 September 30, October�2000 Armenians are massacred in Istanbul leading to massive protests from European countries�were Armenians in Istanbul supporting the Russians as well??

November 9, 1938: This is the date that became known as the "Crystal Night" because Nazi mobs throughout Germany attacked Jewish synagogues and stores. The Muslim Ottoman government never attacked "Christian" Armenian churches and stores. There is no way to compare this German action to the Ottomans. Today, in modern day Turkey, there are more Armenian churches operating that in Armenia�
1875 December 1, by an order from the Turkish gov�t Armenian market districts in Van are destroyed�I also suggest you read about the burning of the Armenian Cathedral in Urfa where 3000 Armenians were burnt alive.(BTW Armenia has over 2000 churches...use your brain b4u say Turkey has more churches than Armenia)

November 12, 1938: German Jews were fined 1 billion marks solely because of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing�
Like I said�Armenians instead had to pay double taxes for the gov�t in addition to incremental taxes to the local Kurdish Chieftain.

November 15, 1938: All Jewish students were expelled from all German schools for the sole reason of their race. The Ottomans never did such a thing�
the Armenian genocide didn�t take as much time as the Jewish holocaust. The Armenian population was driven to the deserts in only 2 years�however prior to that thousands were killed in Organized massacres during the reign of Sultan Hamid.

July 4, 1939: Hitler decreed that German Jews were prohibited from holding government jobs. The Ottomans never did such a thing�
The ottomans killed the Armenians who had job in the gov�t including the members of parliament.

I think you get my point I�m not going to continue answering to each point�you�re describing what happened to the Jews and trying to compare it to Armenians�that has got nothing to do with it. Genocide has certain categories it has to meet. It doesn�t mean that what happened in Germany has to happen word by word�.use your head. The Rowandan genocide doesn�t have common points with neither Armenian nor Jewish holocaust�It doesn�t mean that it wasn�t a genocide. Neither Rowandan books were burnt, nor radios were closed, nor the parliament issued a decree�all that happened around 800,000 Rwandans were killed just because they belonged to a certain tribe. There were no gas chambers nor concentration camps. What�s that got to do with anything. An event is considered genocide when certain categories are met. As Racial extermination, mass killings, transfer of orphans of one group to another(you did this BIG TIME�go check about Aintoura college in Lebanon)


You�re making me repeat the same things again�I would have appreciated if you had read my earlier posts�i have talked about these before�

Moreover, to go on with your last few points:
1.Ottoman leaders were convicted by the military Tribunal in Istanbul. (check your info)�while the Malta Tribunal is well known for being the biggest theatrical masterpiece the British gov�t came up with.
2.Armenians raised the issue to the Permanent Peoples� Tribunal & the Ottoman empire was found guilty for Crimes Against Humanity & Crime of Genocide. (so enough of this nonsense that Armenians represented their claims twice but was rejected�the claims was rejected by the superpowers.
1.Because Armenians had been given their fair share by the peace conference in Sevres treaty.
2.The peace conference was a political dialogue, not a court of law neither gathering of historians. While Historians later proved the issue of Genocide, the people�s tribunal found the Ottoman Empire guilty BY LAW to crimes against humanity and the crime of Genocide (go check about it).
3.What sources man?? Where did you come up with this number 100,000Armenians�Go get real�and there isn�t any institute in Armenia with the Name of Armenian nazi general�bring it if there is�I�m waiting�you�re dreaming!!!!
4.While im not going to even dignify the rest of your saying with an anwer�cause they all are the same as the one's i answered...trying helplessly to prove that Armenians collaborated with Nazis�while I suggest you go research which government(Turkey) used to supply Nazis with Chromium used in manufacturing of Armaments & which resulted in the prolongation of WWII by 7 months�which lead to the killings of millions of people.(OOHHH yes man!!! you did supply them with chromium while the rest of the world had blockaded German Chromium imports).
5.I can�t believe you the source says 20,000 one line later you say 100,000 Armenians collaborated�unless you�re considering yourself to be a historical source�I find this very amusing.
6.The Truth will prevail?? The truth had already prevailed�Jews call Armenians the �Righteous of Nations�, while the World has recognized the Genocide even in courts . Get Real!!







I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them into the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a New Armenia."
�William Saroyan�