http://www.historynet.com/magazines/world_war_2/3035106.html?page=1&c=y


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The Russians still tore out the heart of the German army here. The Germans took a gmable, they lost, they paid for it dearly.



Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind us—immensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."

Well the germans won the materialschlacht the soviets lost between 1600-1900 tanks and the germans only 280

german losses in men about 57 000 soviet 270 000



Even taking account of the larger soviet stocks of tanks this war a rate of loss they couldn`t have continued with for long

What made Hitler stop Operation Zitadelle was clever soviet offensives on other parts of the front near Orel which endagered the german positions and risked trapping them as they wanted to trap the russians in the bulge west of Kursk








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280 tanks? You are only counting the tanks lost in the German controlled part of Kursk.

German Losses

German Kursk :
50,000 dead, wounded, or captured
300 tanks
200 aircraft ,

Soviet Kursk :
500,000 dead, wounded, or captured
900 tanks
200 aircraft

Soviet Losses

German Kursk :
180,000 dead, wounded, or captured
1,600 tanks
1,000 aircraft ,

Soviet Kursk :
607,737 dead, wounded, or captured
1,500 tanks
1,000 aircraft



Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind us—immensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."

Kursk was doomed by the fact that the Soviets precisely knew what the operation was meant to achieve. They acted accordingly. It is a wonder that the German Panzer divisions got as far as they did.

Had Hitler left Manstein the operational flexibility he desired after Charkov one of these things would have happened:

1) An earlier Kursk. Not on the same scale perhaps, but we would not have to batter our heads against successive defensive lines.

2) The flexible defense strategy a la Kharkov. Let the Soviets attack and fool them into thinking they have broken through. Then regroup at the flanks and cut them off when they ran out of steam. Worked perfectly and certainly far better than the static defense.

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There never should have been a German attack on Kursk. If Hitler had been smart, he would have pulled back to defensible positions and put Germany's industrial might into fighter aircraft, early warning radar and AA weapons.

Instead, Germany spent billions of marks on Tanks and offensive weaponry when they never could have matched Soviet output (supplemented by US and British supplies).

By 1943 the war in the east was no longer winnable for Germany. They should have settled for stalemate, built up their defenses and made it too costly for Russia to take the offensive. The war would have ended in a negotiated settlement of some sort, IMO.



Would you trust this man"

Leningrad and Stalingrad were terrible defeats, but not really "My country is gonna be destroyed-type" war losers.

... After Kursk, it was just a matter of time...




[IMG][/IMG]

Few battles of the war has been plauged by so many myths


Interesting to note is that even the battle of Prokhorovka was a german tactical victory


The germans had to stall their offensive because the russians cleverly had prepared an counter offesive against Orel

"As part of the overall Soviet operational plan for the Summer of 1943, the Red Army would absorb the (obvious) German attack while simultaneously launching its own attacks against the 2nd Army (to the left and behind the 9th Army on the north face) and to the south of Kharkov (to outflank the 4th Panzer Army and Army Group Kempf). Given that the German lines had been stripped to provide reinforcements for CITADEL, the XXIV Panzer Corps was committed to blunt these southern attacks. As armored units were pulled out of CITADEL, they too were committed in a defensive role along the Mius. Had CITADEL been continued with the commitment of the XXIV Panzer Corps, the German lines along the Mius would almost certainly have been decisively penetrated, leading to operational disaster for the Germans. As it was, the Soviet attacks still forced the Germans out of the Ukraine, even with the use of Panzer forces on the defensive."


http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

recomended reading is a swedish book

by Zetterling, Niklas, and Anders Frankson. 2000. Kursk: A Statistical Analysis. Frank Cass.


the english version










href="http:http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com///" target="_blank"> Remember the USS Liberty
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Instead, Germany spent billions of marks on Tanks and offensive weaponry when they never could have matched Soviet output (supplemented by US and British supplies
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THIS is a widespread tought by amateurs that Germany could newer match USSR prodction.
Germany did not eavn fully mobilised until 1944.That was a great mistake.Britsh were working 2x on awerage as Germans.Also.Germans did not use Female population in that nummber wich couldew dramaticaly increased production.Then the daily bombing of industry wich eventualy led to German Colapse.

ANd GUESS WHAT!GERMANY still manadgt to outproduce USSR
by 2x in all WAR MAKING material.(repeat! All War Making equipmet)Stop counting just Tanks.(Russian prodution was complletly concetrated on tanks,where Germany had to produce awrything+Subs and Ships for battle of Atlantic,trucks and other stuff)

The Soviets outproduced Germany full stop. What people totally disregard is that the Soviets had to take, brick by brick, entire factories, moved them into safe zones as far off as the Urals and then rebuilt them... This takes time and away from production concentration.

The Soviets totally out produced the Germans, their designs were based on standardised reliability, easy to maintain and repair designs that could fight, while the Germans tried to out 'tech' the Soviets with vastly more complex machines.

The Soviets outproduce the Germans in not only tanks but light vehicles, small arms, aircraft, supplies etc. There were many factors, but trying to take away from the Soviets isn't one of them.

If Hitler had been smart, he would have pulled back to defensible positions and put Germany's industrial might into fighter aircraft, early warning radar and AA weapons.

The problem was that the Soviets would have used the local Polish resistance in this case. The Germans were aware how big it had become (they estimated 200,000 but in fact it stood at 450,000). It would have been easy for a uprising and on top of that mass sabotage to happen all at once with a co-ordinated Soviet attack.

Also, there are no natural defensive lines except for rivers or cities... otherwise the East is almost completely flat land, at best hilly. It would have taken massive defensive lines (trenches, bunker systems and AA positions) which would have seen the Blitzkrieg tactic being used against the Germans.

Also, by the battle of Kursk the Germans wer ebeing out produced in aircraft. At that battle the Soviets had 5 fighters for every one German fighter.



Siege of Tobruk - One German POW said: "I cannot understand you Australians. In Poland, France, and Belgium, once the tanks got through the soldiers took it for granted that they were beaten. But you are like demons. The tanks break through and your infantry still keep fighting." Rommel wrote of seeing "a batch of some fifty or sixty Australian prisoners ... marched off close behind us—immensely big and powerful men, who without question represented an elite formation of the British Empire, a fact that was also evident in battle."

2/3s of Soviet trucks where made in america


2000 locomotives from the allies 90 produced in Soviet during war


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The problem was that they gave the Soviets months and months to prepare. The best idea was probably Manstiens plan do do it quickly with whatever was available. If they aren't going to do that, IMO they would have been better off pulling lots of forces from Kursk area once Soviets have built up defenses there. Then they could surprise Soviets with a series of limited attacks in other sectors, where the soviets had weakened defenses.

.

Germany trying to tech out USSR?
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What?WHY.
German did not tryied to tech out USSR,cus Germany
was far head of USSR in technology,tactics,military skill and nearly awrything.
Based on estamtes Germany was 15-20 years ahead of USSR in technology.And USSR would newer reach the German level if they didnt plundered German tech after
WW2.And eavn then they could not ceap up with the
progres of the west in technological feld.
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And what doo you mean about production.DUde!you need
to read some WW2 books.Imediatly.Take a look at
a production of all War making material.Not just tanks.
Ussr contctrated on tank prodiction completly.At one point 4,5million Russians were working in tank factoris compared to 2 Million Germans.Cus Germany had
to divert Work Force for other productions.Plus the
help of USA and Uk for USSR.ANd bombing of German
industry.This tells awrything.
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Comparison Betwen Germany and USSR in WW2!

GDP at the peak of both Nations(1944)
Germany 437 billion (without Austria)
USSR 362 billion (without Ukraine)

War Planes
Germany 190.437 (+ 1880 Jets and 36.900 V1 and V2,s)
USSR 159.981

TANKS & Armor
USSR 94.170
Germany 46.486

Military Trucks & Logistic
Germany 345.914
USSR 196.988 (about half of that made by USA)

War Ships(carriers,crusers,battleships)
Germany 17 (+ 2 incomplete carriers)
USSR 4 (+ 4 incomplete Battlecrusers)

Submarines
Germany 1.337
USSR 52 (21 recived from UK and USA and refited)

Coal
Germany 2.420 million tons
USSR 590 million tons

Iron Ore
Germany 240 million tones
USSR 71 million tones

Crude Oil
USSR 110 million tons
Germany 34 million tons
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Like ur see Germany far surpased USSR production in
all making material.Stop counting just Tanks.And Germany did it with far less working hours(SHifts) and
without mobilising its Female population.And then
the continous Bombing of German industry.

Military Trucks & Logistic
Germany 345.914
USSR 196.988 (about half of that made by USA)


Not to be picky but that is what the Soviets produced but on top of that they also received 400 000 trucks from USA


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USSR produced less than 100.000 trucks by its own.Out of those 196.000 trucks half were made by parts suplyed from USA and UK.Then another 200.000 fully manufactured trucks were also recieved.
Ussr could newer sustain its army,s logistis without USA,s help---yet alone win the war.

i say germany over stretched its supply line for too long plus lack of manpower compare to the soviets. Hitler also played a little part messed up the operation, material wise his too confident with his tiger tank yet would be better off with more practical panther tanks for offense role giving more priority to its airfoce.

Quote: i say germany over stretched its supply line for too long plus lack of manpower compare to the soviets. Hitler also played a little part messed up the operation, material wise his too confident with his tiger tank yet would be better off with more practical panther tanks for offense role giving more priority to its airfoce.

I think that at Kursk, the Tigers did well, but almost all Panthers broke down, due to mechanical troubles.

.

there were only around 6 tigers actually reached the frontline the rest(5/6) broke down along the way.

To blame for the german defeat on the east front is Hitler himself. He was a fool and had no idea how wars are to be fought,he was a politician and no army general. He should have let his generals fight the war and should have stopped interfearing.

Quote: but almost all Panthers broke down, due to mechanical troubles.

They have a TV show on in America where they rebuld tanks. They found a Panther tank in a river in Poland and were rebuiding it. During the show they stated that the "weak link" in the Panther was the final drive gears.

Apparently, the Panther was originally designed to be the German equivalent to the T-34. Having a good gun, fast, sufficient armor but not too heavy. But, Hitler got involved and insisted that the Panther should have more armor and make it nearly invulnerable to a head on shot from the Russian 76 mm gun. So they added more armor to it.

Problem was, the final drive gears were constrained by the size of the design. You couldn't make them any bigger to support the bigger load due to more armor. They were overstressed from the get-go. The German engineers tried to improve them with better quality steel and heat treatment, but they were never able to add enough extra strength to the package. The Final drive gears failed often and usually at the worst possible times.

One more example of Hitler the Genius trying to make technical decisions on things he knew nothing about. It was another disaster.



Would you trust this man"

Panther had some revolutionary desings wich are used by nearly all modern tanks....

Panther 2 shouldew comme into production by end of 1945.....that Tnak was a Super tank...not in weight and size ,,but by its capability.....

And as for King Tiger.....at the end of war 8 exapmles were produced with a 1050Hp
engane and 105mm super 88flak as a gun with different turret.........

So we can easly say if Germany had more time....those tanks could make a howack
with allied tanks......if germany wasent bombed and mobilised fully.
German Panzer comanders always sayd that Us-Uk tanks were not a problem at all..
its the Soviet tanks that were much tougher,but Poor Soviet tactics allong with
lack of good radio technolog and nightsight made it also not as deadly as some
peapol Think---------------Hasso Von Manteuffel!
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Example!
Did you know that Leopard 1 (produced in 1960,a) had some features of panther 2
and was actualy on PORSCHES DRAVING BARD AS EARLY AS 1944!

Now imainge that.......Its vary interesting article i found ween i read about leopard 1....
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One Might sayd that Panter suffered some problems ween it first appeard...
But the same came be sayd about T34----wich also was rushed to fast into front line.......But the Kill ratio betwen those 2 best Tanks speak for them selfs.

Quote: So we can easly say if Germany had more time....those tanks could make a howack with allied tanks

Yes... but they will also need to face the nuclear bomb then. You can't just give one side magic extra time to get its superweapons out, while the other stays with older designs.

Same with battles. If you take away Hitler's interference and allow Germany to win at Kursk, you would have to be fair, and get rid of Stalin's crappy tactics from 1941. Although Hitler never learned, screwed up almost every sector imaginable, and was much more harmfull than Stalin ever was.

.

of course you are right there.....

But Nukig Germany would led that large part of Europe and Uk be contamintated with Tabun,Soman,Serin......wich is just as bad in my Eyes.
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And Usa did not had the technoilogy yet available to extract Uranium that fast
nessasry for Building Nukes like later.It was still way to slow.
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On contrary Germany couldew produced Nukes at far faster rate cus Zippe Centrifuge for Uranium extraction is a German Invention......
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One could argue here to infenity,but i doo agree with you.Hitler screwed up big
time for Germany...........