Bulgarians, what are you thoughts on this quote below
As concerns the language of Mr. Jordan, anyone can see that it is so different from our written and spoken language, so that to a person reading it for the first time it will appear not only incomprehensible but completely different. And in truth his language, even though it appears to be Bulgarian, and its material, like that of our language, is also taken from the Church Slavic literary language, has in its form, nevertheless, that is in the pronunciation of the words and in writing, so many properties and peculiarities that it can more easily be learned and spoken correctly by a foreigner, and not by a native Bulgarian. May the residents of Skopje forgive us, along with those who speak a similar language: since they also do not understand our language, nor can they speak it.
Bolgarski Carigradski vestnik, Bulgarian Istambul Herald, No.55, October 6, 1851, p.19
This is written by the editor of the paper, as early as 1851, a clear acknowledgement that the Macedonian and Bulgarian tongues are not the same dialect and furthermore proof that even the Bulgarians themselves, according to the editor of the paper, do not consider this language Bulgarian. Before the existence of the Bulgarian state, how do you explain this?
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Смех-Комита,види тука из пишаното од Кузман Шапкарев. Пишува на jазикот на вашите и нашите дедовци и татковци. Jазикот што ви го изтуркале од главите и од родовото памтение блажеконеските стручнjаци:
Кузман Шапкарев съставя свои учебници, четири от които печата през 1868 год. (Землеописание, Буквар, Читанка и Свещена история). Тия учебници са писани на език вразумителен за „македонските българчиня", тьй като със съществуващите тогава учебници по източнобългарското наречие из Македония се работело трудно. Сам Шапкарев изтъква в предговора към своята Читанка:
„В наречието, кое нарекох по-вразумително за македонските българи, се трудих да бида, колко ми би възможно, по-вразумителен на съотечественичи-нята ми; но немаещи намерение да се отдалеча съвсем от възточно-българското и да мисля за особено македонско наречие (както някои от нашите възточни братия съвсем напраздно се боят), защо такова нещо би било гибелно за нашият язик, желаех още и до старобългарското да се приближа..."
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Slavic alphabet, the original Glagolitica is mostly a unique creation of Saint Kiril with a few minor admixtures, whereas the modern Cyrilic alphabet, which was created by the students of Kiril, is more based but not exclusively on greek. Greek on the other hand is based on Phoenician, of which many variants existed. Yanniz, how come you spell your name in Turkish style? Is the last letter sound "Z" or "TS", either way it doesn't sound "modern greek", or a you a Thrace Turko-greek?
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Yanniz you have issues, first you write your name in a Turkogreko way, second you call me a jew on the one hand and a nazi on the other, ....ohhh, i get it, this must be the same as when you people think you are greek on the one hand and Macedonian on the other................MORONS!!!!!!!!!!!!! YanniZ your a turk, plain and simple.
Bolgare, what were Kiril i Metodi, where did they come from??? hehe, Climent is a highly regarded figure for both our nations, in the end, they all came to Ohrid, not preslav, to make Macedonia, not Bulgaria, the centre of Slavonic learning, cheers
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...in the end, they all came to Ohrid, not preslav, to make Macedonia, not Bulgaria, the centre of Slavonic learning ...
haha , komita , preslav was in the Mizia district(upper land) and Ohrid in the macedonia district (lower land) of one and the same country - BULGARIA stick that in your mind . if that district of Bulgaria was ever called macedonia in that time, which i really doubt
We all know very well where from Kiril and metodij are ... but did you know that Kliment is mentioned in too many byzantine and whatever else sources from that time as a "miziec" - so he was born in Mizia - the upper land and had nothing to do with macedonia(lower land) conserning his origins
As for why he came to Ohrid ? Didn't you know that in the Bulgarian state in that time Ohrid was a center of the fur industry ? the Making of all the necessary books for the newly written in BULGARIAN bible required a lot of that raw material ... so that's why half of those books were made in Ohrid , and the other half in Preslav ... have you heard of the preslavska ond Ohridska knijovna shkola of Bulgaria ? Are you educated a little more now , komita ?
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"haha , komita , preslav was in the Mizia district(upper land) and Ohrid in the macedonia district (lower land) of one and the same country - BULGARIA stick that in your mind . if that district of Bulgaria was ever called macedonia in that time, which i really doubt"
Macedonia has always been known in one way or another as Macedonia. Preslav was not only in Mysia, it was in the Bulgar heartland, within the vicinity of the Dobrudzhja, centrally located within the Bulgar settlement. Before Boris changed the capital it was in Pliska, which is located even further north-east. Whatsmore is that the Preslav monastic areas and school were under the direct patronage of the Bulgar Khans, whereas Ohrid was at most times Byzantine, this is also why all of the Slavic churches once paid homage to Ohrid, because it was the mother church for all Slavs and whatsmore it was completely Byzantine in culture and origin. Macedonia recieved the word of christ long before the Bulgar Khans stepped foot in Europe.
"We all know very well where from Kiril and metodij are ..."
At least we agree on something, of course they are from Macedonia, Salonika to be precise, Kliment was not from Mysia although he worked there for a while, regardless of the "mizian" description it is a fact that Kiril was a native of Salonika which is Macedonia, where they all speak "pure Slav". Show me where it states that Kliment is a native or was born in Mizia because what you write is more an assumption than anything else.
"but did you know that Kliment is mentioned in too many byzantine and whatever else sources from that time as a "miziec" - so he was born in Mizia -the upper land and had nothing to do with macedonia(lower land) conserning his origins"
I wouldn't put an ethnicity on either, both were byzantines, christians, first and foremost, it just so happened that after the death of Metodi, the apostles' students were expelled from Moravia due to Frankish pressure, and Boris of Bulgaria was more than willing to accept these Slavic-speaking monks if it helped him gain a Slavic-speaking clergy and learning staff. The fact remains, while Naum stayed on a few extra years to help establish Preslav efore also going to Macedonia, Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support, into a Slavic Rome, which he successfully did in the homeland of their teachers Kiril i Metodi. Ohrid was byzantiums way of accomodating the Slavs with their own united cultural and learning centre, and also of maintaining a leadership of all other Slavic churches via Ohrid. So as you can see, Ohrid is neither bulgar by foundation or by any other right.
"As for why he came to Ohrid ? Didn't you know that in the Bulgarian state in that time Ohrid was a center of the fur industry ?"
Hehe, no I didn't know that, enlighten me with a source.
"the Making of all the necessary books for the newly written in BULGARIAN bible required a lot of that raw material ... so that's why half of those books were made in Ohrid , and the other half in Preslav ... have you heard of the preslavska ond Ohridska knijovna shkola of Bulgaria ?"
What, Mysia doesn't have raw materials?? Honestly where do you get this information from, most of those books were made in Ohrid simply because it was the church-school of church-schools in the Slavic world, not because it may have passed from Byzantine to Bulgar hands a few times during that era. I have heard of the Ohrid literary school, it is what I have been writing about here, it is the Slavic Rome. Preslav is what Pec is for Serbia, you cannot even think to compare those places with Ohrid, it was Ohrid that Slavs from all over the Byzantine Empire and Europe came to see and study at, not Preslav.
"Are you educated a little more now , komita ?"
?? By what, what you said? Hehe, i think you may be a little more educated after you read this post.
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As regrads my initial post for this thread, the purpose was to discuss the thought and intentions of the quote in regards to the language of the Macedonians, not to provide a quote that claims Macedo-Bulgars, which turns it into an endless cycle. One quote at a time, so I still await a serious answer on the first one I provided before we move on to others.
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listen komita , just the simple quote from your responce :
"Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support, into a Slavic Rome "
speaks about your you and your knowledge status ...
Byzantine support don't make me laugh , kid So Kliment established the Ohrid scholar school with the support and the money of the byzantines while all the region was in the borders of Bulgaria wow tsar Boris I must have been fooled by the roemios haha , excuse me but this is the stupidest thing you wrote so far ...
regarding the language dispute ... i still haven't heard your reply about the Kuzman Shapkarev's book which i provided ?
„В наречието, кое нарекох по-вразумително за македонските българи, се трудих да бида, колко ми би възможно, по-вразумителен на съотечественичи-нята ми; но немаещи намерение да се отдалеча съвсем от възточно-българското и да мисля за особено македонско наречие (както някои от нашите възточни братия съвсем напраздно се боят), защо такова нещо би било гибелно за нашият язик, желаех още и до старобългарското да се приближа..."
why Kuzman speaks about old-bulgarian writing and not about old-slavonic as you call it ? Or maybe Kuzman Shpakarev is not macedonian ? Is he respected in you country , komitski ?
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1. "Macedonia has always been known in one way or another as Macedonia"
2. "Whatsmore is that the Preslav monastic areas and school were under the direct patronage of the Bulgar Khans, whereas Ohrid was at most times Byzantine, this is also why all of the Slavic churches once paid homage to Ohrid, because it was the mother church for all Slavs and whatsmore it was completely Byzantine in culture and origin. "
3. "Kliment was not from Mysia although he worked there for a while, regardless of the "mizian" description"
4. "I wouldn't put an ethnicity on either, both were byzantines, christians, "
5. "Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support"
6. " most of those books were made in Ohrid simply because it was the church-school of church-schools in the Slavic world"
7. "Preslav is what Pec is for Serbia, you cannot even think to compare those places with Ohrid, it was Ohrid that Slavs from all over the Byzantine Empire and Europe came to see and study at, not Preslav."
O.k. let's start the real discussion, if you dare, ready?
Waiting for your precise and clear explanation for the above statements which are completely OPPOSITE to ALL the sources and historiography findings.......
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listen komita , just the simple quote from your responce :
"Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support, into a Slavic Rome "
speaks about your you and your knowledge status ...
Byzantine support don't make me laugh , kid So Kliment established the Ohrid scholar school with the support and the money of the byzantines while all the region was in the borders of Bulgaria wow tsar Boris I must have been fooled by the roemios haha , excuse me but this is the stupidest thing you wrote so far ...
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Listen kid, I am happy that I made you laugh, now lets get serious. Boris was, just prior to the arrival of Kliment and Naum, virtually ready to adopt the Papal Roman rite, don't tell me about his intentions, they were much more narrow than you think, you think my knowledge is little but that truth is the opposite for you only know bits and pieces and not the full story. It was the Byzantines who INITIATED the Slavonic teachings, not Boris, and it was done so the Byzantines could evangalize the remaining pagans and bring the Slavs within the Byzantine cultural orbit, not so Bulgaria could have a literary language. The fact that Ohrid may have been within the Bulgarian "empire" means nothing, this process would have been completed even if Boris did not get involved as it was started by the Byzantines, nearly everything cultural and religious in Ohrid is Byzantine by nature, not "Bulgarian", whatever that's supposed to mean in that time anyway, wether Turk or Slavic. Tell me, where did Boris get all these teachers and clergy, with what support did he himself support these literary schools, particularly the one in Ohrid? Please, tell me that they all came from Bolgaria so I can laugh at you, from bulgaria where the religious services were still carried out in the greek language, indeed very Slavic you are. This is the simple fact, Byzantium needed to bring the Slavs closer via cultural means for their "hellenizing" effort had failed, so they initiated an action and supported the ripples that followed. There was no way Boris could have even voiced his support for these schools unles the Byzantines gave the go ahead, this is a fact. How long was Ohrid under the Bulgarian Empire before Boris helped established a literary school there? 20 years, 30 maybe? Is this what makes Ohrid "bolgarian"? To the Byzantines Preslav was lost long ago, whereas Ohrid would always remain an important Byzantine cultural city, indeed she was the descendant of Justinia Prima, of another Macedonian city within the vicinity of Skopje, I don't really know what you people try to get at when you say that it is Bulgarian when just a generation or two before Boris much of the Bolgar aristicracy were still Turkic-Volga Bolgars, your manipulation of the names and titles of the middle-ages rivals that of the modern greeks.
"regarding the language dispute ... i still haven't heard your reply about the Kuzman Shapkarev's book which i provided ?"
You will hear my reply when you give me an answer to my first post which is the initial one on this thread, in the real world a question recieves an answer, not another question, stop behaving like a greek.
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Can you please explain these:
1. "Macedonia has always been known in one way or another as Macedonia"
2. "Whatsmore is that the Preslav monastic areas and school were under the direct patronage of the Bulgar Khans, whereas Ohrid was at most times Byzantine, this is also why all of the Slavic churches once paid homage to Ohrid, because it was the mother church for all Slavs and whatsmore it was completely Byzantine in culture and origin. "
3. "Kliment was not from Mysia although he worked there for a while, regardless of the "mizian" description"
4. "I wouldn't put an ethnicity on either, both were byzantines, christians, "
5. "Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support"
6. " most of those books were made in Ohrid simply because it was the church-school of church-schools in the Slavic world"
7. "Preslav is what Pec is for Serbia, you cannot even think to compare those places with Ohrid, it was Ohrid that Slavs from all over the Byzantine Empire and Europe came to see and study at, not Preslav."
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"O.k. let's start the real discussion, if you dare, ready?"
Oh so now when you are ready we can start the "real" discussion but all the other times I have tried to start a discussion I have been attacked off the top? If you "dare"?? Hehe, give me a break fella, the real discussion started with the thread topic.
"Waiting for your precise and clear explanation for the above statements which are completely OPPOSITE to ALL the sources and historiography findings......."
That sentence is laughable, you must think you've got me now, that whatever I say you are going to destroy, hehe, I have seen many like you son, many, hehe. I am still WAITING on a reply to the FIRST post on this THREAD, answer that and i will gladly answer all your all to familiar questions.
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And precisely with a quote from Dzinot, let's just annalyse his very language:
""Бог" (в. Цариградски вестник, бр. 44, 1851 г.)
1. Original text:
БОГЪ
Азъ оживуейки и живимъ като се услаждавамъ гледая Народъ-атъ Наш Пресладкiй и ради това не мя остава Негова-та доброта да будемъ лукавъ. И ако ме пита некой школски человек ли си или си Болгаринъ? Азъ полноответамъ: Болгаринъ самъ. Че не е честно на мое-то Славяно-Болгарство да творамъ зло и лукавство, прави Болгаринъ нелажи, незавидуе, неденгубуе, нелицемерствуе, неблудуе, за печена кокошка вера-та неразменуе.
2. "Translation" to modern literary Bulgarian based on the Eastern dialects:
БОГ
Аз оживявайки и живея като се наслаждавам гледайки народът наш пресладък и заради това не ме оставя неговата доброта да бъда лукав. И ако ме пита некой училищен човек ли си или си българин? Аз давам пълен отговор: българин съм. Че не е честно на моето Славяно-Българство да творя зло и лукавство, истинският българин не лъже, не завижда, не пропилява деня си, не лицемерства, не блудства, за печена кокошка вярата си не разменя.
I think it's not an enormous effort for anyone to see how "different" both texts are EVEN though there are MORE than 150 years between them.... Of course even those tiny differences were hardly present more than a century ago, but still it's true that fighting egoistically for promoting their own dialects, intellectuals back then were often offending each other to not speaking Bulgarian language properly. Nothing strange. Even now many not so educated people accuse the Torlaks or the Shops of "speaking" Serbian language in an offending manner. In this aspect the Macedonists comfortably "forget' that the accuse "you don't speak Bulgarian, I don't understand you" is nothing but hipocricy and is applied for not ONLY the Bulgarians from Macedonia, but to many other intelectuals including NAIDEN GEROV himself (born in the MIDDLE of Bulgaria), writers and publishers from Vidin, Vratsa and MANY others.
Now waiting for the precise sources, authors and archeological proof that on the territory of Byzantine empire somewhen or somewhere Slavic literature was created or Slavic lettres used or taught or etc....?
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1. "Boris was, just prior to the arrival of Kliment and Naum, virtually ready to adopt the Papal Roman rite, don't tell me about his intentions"
Kliment and Naum are in Pliska in 885 only, and the Bulgarian church question is solved in Acta VІІІ from The Universe Congress 869-870 and Acta from the Fotius Congress 879-880, Notitia Episcopatuum of the Constaniple Church like this:
"Graecis *au)toke/faloi, dicti his sunt Episcopi seu Archiepiscopi, qui, a Patrinrchis non dependentes, ratione iurisdictionis, eôdem ac illi au)tokefali/as2 iure gaudebant, nulli alii subiecti: Cuiusmodi Cypri Archiepiscopus est, ex Concilii Ephesini decreto, Metropoli eius ab Antiochenae Ecclesiae iurisdictione exemptâ. Sic in Sexta Synodo can. 39. qui etiam refertur a Constantino Porphyrogenito l. de Admir. Imp. c. 48. Nova Iustinianopolis to\ di/kaion e)/xein th=s *kwnstantinoupo/lews2, ius Constantinopoleos habere, dicitur. Idem iuris in Ecclesia Orientali habuêre praeterea Archiepiscopus Bulgariae et alii nonnulli Metropolitani, a)po\ filotimi/as2 bas1ilixh=s2, ut ait Balsamon de Privilegiis Patriarcharum"
2. "It was the Byzantines who INITIATED the Slavonic teachings, not Boris, and it was done so the Byzantines"
In 885 the Byzantine initiative was completely over and destroyed just like the similar initiatives concerning the Arabs, Hazras and others. Instead there was a great RULER who "cherished for exactly such persons" and there were also Eshach BOILA, Dometa KOMIT, Radoslav BORITARKANA and many others who made everything necessary for building schools and teaching students. NONE of them Macedonian including Kliment and Naum "born in Moesia in noble families".
Well, I may go on with the nasty lies from above .....it's enough for now...
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Uste sum tuka bre ******, samo sto e dosadna to odam okolu vo krug so vasite gluposti, zato koga mi e zgodno mene ke pocnam da pisam nazat, ona sto go kazvas ne e nesto novo, ne se radvaj mnogu.
smeh-komita , kopile ke vikash na tatko si , jasno ?
This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 3, 2006 9:44 AM This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 3, 2006 9:44 AM
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I won't and I cannot present anything new here.
It's you responsible for the "new" as clearly shown above.
On the other hand I honestly and gladly kept to the deal and answered your specific question. You did NOT keep to the deal. May be you do not understand the language of Dzinot which is clearly NOT the language spoken in Skopje today but the one spoken in Sofia. So I can offer help with the translation. Nothing new here also. Most of todays Macedonians have difficulties in understanding even Misirkov.
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I shall leave your "nice" attitude away this time. But just try once again to call ANYONE here "kopile" or suchlike and you'll get what you deserve.
This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 4, 2006 11:06 AM This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 4, 2006 1:10 AM
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Are they supposed to be threats? hehe, I dont respond well to threats, so expect more of the same if you disrespect me, "get what i deserve"???? hahahaha, i gotta confess though, i am the most miserable and funny partisipant in this very forum . No wonder they call me Smeh-komita , cause i am no komita at all . I insist on calling other guys with the word "kopile" but in fact my own family is full of kopileta. My grand mother was several times raped by the serbs , my mother also got married for a serbian rapist and in that way she gave birth to me - a real serbian bastard or kopile . The most recent kopile we got in our family is when my sister got recently raped by a neighbouring albanian .
This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 4, 2006 11:05 AM
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It's seems that you respond (well or bad, whatever) to threats and curses MUCH MUCH MORE eagerly and quickly than to any simple question regarding history and past of your own people.
Again nothing new here, right?
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1. "Macedonia has always been known in one way or another as Macedonia"
Macedonia has always been known as Macedonia in one way or another, if you can't understand that, then you have rocks in your head, because it has had this name for about 3000 years.
2. "Whatsmore is that the Preslav monastic areas and school were under the direct patronage of the Bulgar Khans, whereas Ohrid was at most times Byzantine, this is also why all of the Slavic churches once paid homage to Ohrid, because it was the mother church for all Slavs and whatsmore it was completely Byzantine in culture and origin. "
The Balkan Slavs were religiously cultured by the Byzantines, if you deny this then you have even more rocks in your head. Ohrid did not hold the leading position for these matters within the Bulgarian Empire, Preslav did. Preslav was always a part of Bulgaria since the Volgari arrived whereas Ohrid and Macedonia were only conquered territories at times but never integral. Because Ohrid was under Byzantine control for the most part, and because Byzantium wanted to maintain a hold on Slavs through religion is the reason why Ohrid was the spiritual leader of all Slav churches. Keep this in mind also, It is significant that, whereas after 893 Cyrillic was adopted by the government and court schools of Preslav, Glagolitic was mainly cultivated – at least until the end of the twelfth century – in the geographically remote and culturally more conservative Macedonian school founded by Clement.
3. "Kliment was not from Mysia although he worked there for a while, regardless of the "mizian" description"
Kliment was from Macedonia.
4. "I wouldn't put an ethnicity on either, both were byzantines, christians, "
I dont see where the confusion is here, but you do seem like a confused type of fellow.
5. "Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support"
Do you think Boris supplied everything? You must be kidding, he may have supported the idea but at the end of the day this was a Byzantine initiative, from the creation of the alphabet to the ideas of teaching the Slavs, if anything an initiative from the Slavs of Byzantium and not Bulgaria, if Kiril i Metodi didn't create this miracle do you honestly think that Khan Boris would have? The asame Khan who had Roman Papals invited to his kingdom, is this the great Slav you speak of? Pathetic..
6. " most of those books were made in Ohrid simply because it was the church-school of church-schools in the Slavic world"
Most of the important teachings and literature are from Macedonia, Ohrid remained leader of the Slavic spiritual world, Preslav was only ever a means of Khan Boris attaining his own church and thus freedom from the Byzantines, you cannot even begin to compare Preslav with Ohrid.
7. "Preslav is what Pec is for Serbia, you cannot even think to compare those places with Ohrid, it was Ohrid that Slavs from all over the Byzantine Empire and Europe came to see and study at, not Preslav."
You don't understand what that means? Let me enlighten you:
A letter from Pope Urban VIII to the Archbishop of Ohrid, Porphyrius Palaelogus, 1624, A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum II, (Zagrebiae 1875), p. 123.;
To the respected brothers Porphyrius Paleologus, Patriarch of Justiniana Prima of Ohrid and THE OTHER SUBORDINATE ARCHBISHOPS, bishops of Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania AND OF THE OTHER SIDE OF MACEDONIA.
SUBORDINATES, YET NOW YOU THINK YOU OWN US????
What have you to say about this bre subordinate bugain? how come the Partiarch is not mention as Bulgarian but instead it is JUSTINIA PRIMA OF OHRID-MACEDONIA with the SUBORDINATE bishops of Bolgarska i Srbija?
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(Inter vero Thraciam vel Macedoniam et Mysiam inferiorem modo Bulgari habitant… ut testatur mihi multotiens dictus Iordanis cosmographus. – Ravennat. Cosmogr, IV, 6).
In Kliment's Ohridski Jitie is clearly written that he is from Mizia by origin and is coming from a noble family of a Bulgarian Boil ...
Всъщност спорът е излишен. В житието на Климент и Наум се казва, че те са от Мизия и са синове на благородни родители. Иначе казано, те са от български аристократичен произход, т. е. синове на боили. От определена възраст те са част от гвардията на кана и от този корпус млади благородници (наричани "хранени хора") са хората, изпълняващи важни държавни мисии. В този смисъл появата на Климент, Наум и Ангеларий в кръга на учениците във Великоморавия едва ли е случайно. Те са били изпратени там от Борис I, за да изучат добре новата азбука - българският цар добре е разбирал, че Кирил и Методий могат и да бъдат елиминирани от враговете си, както и става. Странното освобождаване от затвора, довеждането им до българската граница (когато другите 200 ученици са продадени в робство) също намира своето логично обяснение - те са освободени като поданици на българската държава навярно по лично искане на цар Борис I пред немския крал - негов съюзник по това време.
Огромното доверие нелогично за доскоро непознати хора също отива на мястото си, ако Климент и Наум са хора на Борис I, членове на управляващата страната аристократична класа.
Че Климент и Наум наистина са български благородници, си личи от факта, че през 916 г. вече болния и изнемощял епископ Климент подава оставката си не на прекия си началник (архиепископа на България), а на цар Симеон Велики. Това е в съгласие не с църковния закон (архиепископството е до смърт на титуляра), а съгласно кодекса на честта на българската служебна аристокрация, подчинена само и единствено на царя.
BYE BYE SMEH KOMITAAAAAA ... Send greetings to yuor serbian father
This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 4, 2006 11:24 AM
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Ето какво пише Димитър Хоматиан:
XII-XIII век.
“Този велик наш отец и светилник на България (Климент) бил по род от европейските мизи, които народът обикновено знае като българи…Пръв заедно с божествения Наум, Ангеларий и Горазд усърдно изучил Свещеното писание, преведено с божествено съдействие на тукашния български говор от Кирил, истински богомъдър и равноапостолен отец, и още отначало бил с Методий, известния учител на мизийския народ на благочестие и православна вяра…Когато божествения Кирил се преселил в по-добрия живот, след като предварително бил направил известно апостолското си служене и увеличението на поверения му талант на Адриан, тогавашен папа на древния Рим, и Методий бил поставен за архиепископ на Моравия и България от същия този папа, тогава и Климент бил издигнат на епископски престол, като бил поставен от Методий за епископ на целия Илирик и на българския народ, който владеел страната.
Той (Климент) най-често пребивавал в илирийския град Лихнида, който е център на околните градове и който сега на езика на мизите се нарича Охрид, и в Кефалиния, преведено на български език Главиница, където е оставил и паметници.”
BYE BYE , SMEH-KOMITA
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Ето какво пише в житието за Наум:;
X век.
"Той преподобен и велик отец Наум израсна в Мизия (България, по-точно Северна България Ал. М.) и според възпитанието /което получи/ от благородните свои родители сметна благородството и богатството - всичко това като плевели и се присъедини към равноапостолите Константин Философ и брат му Методия, които обхождаха и учеха мизиския и далматинския народ, последва ги навсякъде и чак до стария Рим...
Тези пък отърсиха праха от нозете си според Писанието и дойдоха към земите при Дунава. Там с молитви и чудо божие свързаха три дървета с павит, призоваха името на светата Троица и преминаха реката и достигнаха Белград (става дума за пристигането в Белград на Кирилово-Методиевите ученици Климент, Наум, Горазд и Ангеларии Ал. М). И там бяха удостоени с голяма чест от княз Радислав (има се предвид българският управител на Белгард), а те дадоха благословия и радост.
Нум и Климент дойдоха в илирийските и лихнидски страни. В Деволския Ливан, при край на езерото на Охридския град, в междуречието Наум създаде голяма обител и храм на името на чиноначалника арахангел Михаила и на всички сили небесни със средствата и повелението на благочестивия български цар Михаил Борис и сина му цар Симеон, бидейки тогава година 6413 (=905 Ал.М.). И като устрои всичко благоугодно богу, почина там блаженият Наум (Наум е починал на 23.XII.910 година) в дъблока старост и душата си в в ръце божии предаде през месец декември 23-и, и бида стъкмено честното негово тело от божествените ръце на Христовия архиерей Климент Охридски и с почит бе положено в гроб в десното крило на храма..."
SO LONG , mr. SMEH-KOMITA ... is the bastard serbian blood in yuor vains bustling now ?
This message has been edited by krivolaki-hristakief on Apr 4, 2006 11:42 AM
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"Macedonia has always been known in one way or another as Macedonia"
No, it was NOT! In fact from the Byzantine period until 18th century it was very RARELY called Macedonia, but NEVER in domestic sources.
"Whatsmore is that the Preslav monastic areas and school were under the direct patronage of the Bulgar Khans, whereas Ohrid was at most times Byzantine, this is also why all of the Slavic churches once paid homage to Ohrid, because it was the mother church for all Slavs and whatsmore it was completely Byzantine in culture and origin. "
Some maths:
Ohrid was in Bulgarian hands from 813 till 1018 = 205 years PERMANENTLY!
Preslav was founded not before 900 and was in Bulgarian hands until 1005 = 105 years (but NOT permanently).
"The Balkan Slavs were religiously cultured by the Byzantines:
Then give me places, books, churches, writers etc. on BYZANTINE territory OUTSIDE Bulgaria that Slavic language, books etc ever existed - written, taught etc. Can you?
"Kliment was from Macedonia "
Any proof? Sources, documents, epigraphics /or you don't use such 'details/?
"Kliment had already left to turn the Ohrid region of Macedonia, with Byzantine support"
Any proof? Sources, documents, epigraphics /or you don't use such 'details/?
"Do you think Boris supplied everything? You must be kidding, he may have supported the idea but at the end of the day this was a Byzantine initiative"
1. As far as I know Boris was the ruler of the country, am I wrong????
2. Byzantine initiative was NOT designated for Bulgaria, but for Moravia and it FAILED. After the failure Byzantia did NOTHING to promote the initiative on its territory or ANY other territories. On the contrary - Byzantia tried hard to impose GREEK language and teaching to ALL the Slavs on its territory and further.
" most of those books were made in Ohrid simply because it was the church-school of church-schools in the Slavic world"
Give me a list of the books! Including the books that were sent to other countries. And a list of ALL the authors! Then we shall compare the lists with the same ones from PLISKA-PRESLAV? Could you? I KNOW YOU CAN NOT, hahahahahahahahaha
"Most of the important teachings and literature are from Macedonia, Ohrid remained leader of the Slavic spiritual world, Preslav was only ever a means of Khan Boris attaining his own church and thus freedom from the Byzantines, you cannot even begin to compare Preslav with Ohrid."
Give me a list of the books! Including the books that were sent to other countries. And a list of ALL the authors! Then we shall compare the lists with the same ones from PLISKA-PRESLAV? Could you? I KNOW YOU CAN NOT, hahahahahahahahaha
"A letter from Pope Urban VIII to the Archbishop of Ohrid, Porphyrius Palaelogus, 1624, A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum II, (Zagrebiae 1875), p. 123.;"
I thought we were talking about 885 or 1624 year?? Woww, am i wrong there are "only" 6 centuries in between? Or we have the good old macedonian tactics called "change subject immediately when you see a historical proof or evidence"
We may gladly discuss the GREEK church originally called "ARCHBISHOPY OF OHRID AND THE WHOLE OF BULGARIA", BUT after we clear the present subject!
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"“....Тоя преподобен и велик отец Наум израсна в Мизия и според възпитанието [което получи] от благородните свои родители сметна благородството и богатството — всичко това като плевели и се присъедини към рав-ноапостолите Константина Философа и брата му Методия, които обхождаха и учеха мизийския и далматинския народ, последва ги навсякъде и чак до стария Рим ..."
X век, /Св. Наум, Второ житие, оригиналът е на старобългарски/.
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How come Teophilactus and Homatian know NOTHING about any Byzantine support for Kliment and Naum, but give us INSTEAD a very DETAILED info about Boris and Simeon's support and precise instructions???
Also none of these HIGH BYZANTINE scholars and officials know nothing of Ohrid being a Byzantine town during Kliment and Naum's lifetime.
BTW, ever read any sources regarding Kliment or Naum or even Byzantine empire in this period? ANY sources at all?
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yes ruse , since our opponent(ops is he really one?) is probably a proud descendent of Aco Golemiot Peder , of his horse BuceFALOS or maybe of Aco's great love Haephestion the wide a*ss MF maybe we have the full right from now on to call him Smeh-Kopitadji
anybody objecting ?
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It is so amusing to see you all gather up together and recycle the same **** over again, it is always a pleasure watching you ignore some facts while paying particular attention to others, and now that it is all of you arguing against one you will feel proud that you've did what, refute my arguments? Hehe, i can go on all day debating with people like you but thre is no point because you are so brainwashed and confused you actually believe the shi.t spewing out of your mouths. That is the tactic you all use, hehe. Let me just say this in closing, you are dead WRONG to claim everything before 1878 that had the label of "Bulgarian" as yours, dead WRONG, because if that is the case you should be claiming half of Serbia and the Greeks should be claiming all of Italy. Youa re manipulators who have the manipulations in favour of themselves, so of course in your minds you think you "right", but to the objective reader who evaluates all of the information, you are a joke, behold in me the objective reader as I behold in you a joke of colossal proportions.
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What about some facts and arguments instead of just cheap promises to show any?
And don't play this stupid game that if Dzinot called himself Bulgarian it doesn't mean nothing why don't you just take a look at his VERY language above compared to MY very language. No difference, a? Hahahaha
About Serbia - let me tell you something! You're right we do not claim half of Serbia, but I'll tell you a "secret". If Vuk Karadzic had ever written this:
" БОГЪ
Азъ оживуейки и живимъ като се услаждавамъ гледая Народъ-атъ Наш Пресладкiй и ради това не мя остава Негова-та доброта да будемъ лукавъ. И ако ме пита некой школски человек ли си или си Болгаринъ? Азъ полноответамъ: Болгаринъ самъ. Че не е честно на мое-то Славяно-Болгарство да творамъ зло и лукавство, прави Болгаринъ нелажи, незавидуе, неденгубуе, нелицемерствуе, неблудуе, за печена кокошка вера-та неразменуе."
BELIEVE me that we should have claimed NOT half, but the WHOLE of Serbia, but.....sorry - we cannot claim the country of Karadzic, Raiic etc...you get the point or it's a bit difficult for you?
And let me tell you something else - our OWN grandparents have been relatives of Samuil, Kliment, Goce and Dzinot, but NEVER relatives of saint Sava or V. Karadzic. Our own grandparents called themselves Bulgarians NOT because they were stupid or didn't know OTHER alternatives.
Finally - THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the interesting "facts" ever unknown to anyone but Donski, and extremely logical like the one that the Byzantine empire altogether agressively promoted her Greek alphabet and literature in Bulgaria while agressively helping with everything the promotion also of an entirely different NON-GREEK alphabet (in a complete secrecy even from the emperor and the patriarh, but NOT from Aleksandar Donski, hahahah). I guess those were very hard times for the Byzantines
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You moron, your own grandparents, did your own grandparents say, as one of the miladinov brothers did, "descendants of Illyrus, Koleda, the Mighty Stefan Nemanjic and of others’" did they say this????????? Morons, dont confuse the general Slavic history and culture with the "modern bulgarin", it is not the same.
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You may think you are convicncing somebody with your self styled rhetorical bullshi.t, but believe me you are not, you are all words, manipulated ones, and nothing more. In fact this has degraded to such a level that any serious debate with you people, particularly on this thread is out of the question, you post a question quickly followed by accusations and insults yet you want me to respiond to all your shi.t?
И ако ме пита некой школски человек ли си или си Болгаринъ? Азъ полноответамъ: Болгаринъ самъ
I ako me pita nekoj skolski covek li si ili si Bolgarin? Az polnootvetam: Bolgarin sam.
Stvarno taka, ako go prasuva nekoj "skolski" covek taka ke mu odgovori, ama, ako go prasuva nekoj covek sto ne e skoluvan, sto togas ke mu reci toj??? Deka e Makedonec, oti Bolgarstvoto ne bese nacija vo to vreme. There's your answer, and to back it up, just read what your own people wrote in regards to this;
Was it very long before the liberation of the Bulgarians that one could hear throughout Bulgaria Bulgarians answering to the question "What are you?" (in nationality) that they are "Christians" or "raya" (non-Moslem Turkish subjects - translator's note)? And it is not so unusual even today to hear a Bulgarian answering in court to the question of his nationality that he is a "Christian". For him the concept of nationality has not yet become a new acquisition of his reason. During the Turkish period the Bulgarian peasant termed Bulgarians from cities "Greeks", and city clothing was for him "Greek clothing". And since the Greeks called this peasant a "fat-headed Bulgarian", his brother from the city loved to be called by the term "Hellene" in order to avoid the derision associated with his true national name. IS THIS NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT MR MISIRKOV TELLS US ABOUT THE NAMES FOR THE MACEDONIAN SLAVS? The name "Bulgarian" had in Bulgaria fallen to a level which brought it only the derision of foreigners. In the speech of the Bulgarian himself, this name had lost its national content to such an extent that it became a synonym for "Christian", which name came to signify the entire ethnic content of the Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. Our peasant, in saying "we are Bulgarians", thought "we are Christians", i.e. orthodox. The Russian emperor was for him the "Bulgarian emperor" not by nationality but by orthodox Christianity.
A. T. BaIan, Edna makedonska teorija" (A Macedonian Theory), Periodichesko Spisanie LXV, 1904, p.818
Now revise it in that context, which is the true context, and stop playing agmes like you know it all, ok Greek?
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And of course neither of the Miladinov brothers has ever said such a thing, but it's clear you have never read their works exactly as you've never read any of the medieval sources concerning Kliment or Naum as is clearly shown above!
I want to make a special remark here - you have to start reading books as soon as you can couse there's a lot to read in your case especially.
As for the problem of "the general Slavic history and culture with the "modern bulgarin", excuse me, but I cannot find what is your point nor what is the connection with the subject discussed herewith! Can you please stick to the subject or it's so hard??
Please further don't waste your time giving "quotes" without links, sources or any other relevant PROOF, o.k.?
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"You may think you are convicncing somebody with your self styled rhetorical bullshi.t, but believe me you are not, you are all words, manipulated ones, and nothing more. In fact this has degraded to such a level that any serious debate with you people, particularly on this thread is out of the question, you post a question quickly followed by accusations and insults yet you want me to respiond to all your shi.t? "
Thank you SO much for the proof, sources, facts and original texts that you provided herewith! I guess you convinced everyone in your beliefs......
"Stvarno taka, ako go prasuva nekoj "skolski" covek taka ke mu odgovori, ama, ako go prasuva nekoj covek sto ne e skoluvan, sto togas ke mu reci toj??? Deka e Makedonec, oti Bolgarstvoto ne bese nacija vo to vreme."
Thank you SO much for the proof, sources, facts and original texts that you provided herewith! I guess you convinced everyone in your beliefs......
Can I just KINDLY remind that the subject discussed was the LANGUAGE of Dzinot PRECISELY or here comes again the same old mecedonists tactics called "change the subject immedialtely........."?
Now let's look at your quote:
First you claim this:
"..Deka e Makedonec, oti Bolgarstvoto ne bese nacija vo to vreme..."
And then you gladly supply this quote as a "proof":
"...In the speech of the Bulgarian himself, this name HAD LOST its NATIONAL content to such an extent that it became a synonym for "Christian"..",
So the name DID have a national content BEFORE, right?
I DEFFINETELY agree with this statement, thank you!
Well, now you realise why we respect those who just REVIVED the national content of our name - most and first of them came from Macedonia - Paisii, Rilski, Miladinovi........etc..
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"Stvarno taka, ako go prasuva nekoj "skolski" covek taka ke mu odgovori, ama, ako go prasuva nekoj covek sto ne e skoluvan, sto togas ke mu reci toj??? Deka e Makedonec..."
And then you give this:
"...During the Turkish period the Bulgarian peasant termed Bulgarians from cities "Greeks", and city clothing was for him "Greek clothing". And since the Greeks called this peasant a "fat-headed Bulgarian", his brother from the city loved to be called by the term "Hellene" in order to avoid the derision associated with his true national name. IS THIS NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT MR MISIRKOV TELLS US ABOUT THE NAMES FOR THE MACEDONIAN SLAVS? The name "Bulgarian" had in Bulgaria fallen to a level which brought it only the derision of foreigners. In the speech of the Bulgarian himself, this name had lost its national content to such an extent that it became a synonym for "Christian", which name came to signify the entire ethnic content of the Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. Our peasant, in saying "we are Bulgarians", thought "we are Christians", i.e. orthodox.."
Well am I blind, or just NOWHERE in the text NO ONE calls himself: " Deka e Makedonec..."??
AAAA, I got it! Yeaaa, I think you, komitadji, just want to imply that our peasants back then were ALL of them "skolski" coveci, so they were NOT macedonians, right?
Well, thank you, may be you exxagerate a little, aaa...
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Wow, four quick pathetic responses, well done, I am impressed, you must wait beside your pc all day and night for me to post, hehehe, well, take a nap for now and when I get back later I will educate you some more, all this writing has relusted in much jibberish on your behalf, please, take a sedative and relax for a few.
PS: Dont think that because you add your smiley faces to your posts it means you have won in anything, quite the contrary rather, it means that you openly dusplay yourself as a joke, as you should.
"descendants of Illyrus, Koleda, the Mighty Stefan Nemanjic and of others" 1852
Look it up Bulgan.
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"Wow, four quick pathetic responses, well done, I am impressed, you must wait beside your pc all day and night for me to post, hehehe, well, take a nap for now and when I get back later I will educate you some more, all this writing has relusted in much jibberish on your behalf, please, take a sedative and relax for a few."
Thank you SO much for the proof, sources, facts and original texts that you provided herewith! I guess you convinced everyone in your beliefs......
ENOUGH WITH PROOF! You know - you convinced me a hunder times. I've never seen in my whole life such an abundance of original sources and proof!! Frankly...
Please educate me some more like this:
First you claim this:
"..Deka e Makedonec, oti Bolgarstvoto ne bese nacija vo to vreme..."
And then you gladly supply this quote as a "proof":
"...In the speech of the Bulgarian himself, this name HAD LOST its NATIONAL content to such an extent that it became a synonym for "Christian"..",
Or with the Byzantines promoting the Slav alphabet in Bulgaria together with the Greek one, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Please, please go on 'educating" us IN THE SAME WAY!
"descendants of Illyrus, Koleda, the Mighty Stefan Nemanjic and of others" 1852
You know! I already believe you Miladinov has EVER said this! I looked around and I found even more from Miladinov brothers, these were found in their letters to Blaze Koneski also:
"Во едно много жешко лето Македонците построиха Великата китайска стена, за да спрат татарите, што се мислиле за бугари. Има сериозни исторички сведения, дека они, македонците, построиле и Вавилонската кула, ама ония татари им я бутнале. Китайската стена е китайска, а не македонска, оти оно се разбира под Велика=македонска. Оно сичко македонско е велико."
1852!!
""....македонците идват директно от Ева.... а българите са гадни татари. Такива с дръпнати очи, жълти. Те идват от най - тъмните места на един голям континент, познат под името Азиа. българите били също и чуваши, ингушети и кардараши. И всякакви други - аши. А македонците, макар да нямат ни царе, ни светски люде, ни духовенство, ни творци, били и са велик народ. Макар за тях да не пише никъде, в нито един летопис, тех ги има, вервайте ми!"
1852!!
The originals are kept in the private library of Al. Donski but I'm sure those lettres are as genuine as the Chinese wall!
Waiting for further 'education"
Sincerely yours: True Macedonian (Day Dream Believer)
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Thanks for the nice map of your mongolian ancestors, fyromian tartar. Strikingly reminds me of the Bitola region may be because of this:
"Во некрополата "Млака" пред тврдината во Дебреште, Прилеп, откопани се гробови со наоди од доцниот 7. и 8. век. Тие се делумно или целосно кремирани и не се ниту ромеjски, ниту словенски. Станува збор наjвероjатно, за Кутригурите.
Ова протобугарско племе, под водство на Кубер, а како потчинето на аварскиот каган во Панониjа, околу 680 г. се одметнало од Аварите и тргнало кон Солун. Кубер ги повел со себе и Сермесиjаните, (околу 70.000 на броj), во нивната стара татковина. Сермесиjаните биле Ромеи, жители на балканските провинции што Аварите ги заробиле еден век порано и ги населиле во Западна Панониjа, да работат за нив. На Кубер му била доверена управата врз нив. ..."
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Ej bre Antikomi, when you start writing in that iskas da stiskas vsicki bolgare I automatically start ignoring it, must be something to do with the amount of lies I have read in that langauge.
And are you calling me Mongolian????? Hehehehhe, nice one bre Antikomi, that's pretty funny considering that these people are more than likely your true ancestors, who came from BULGAN.
Kuberoglu Bitolski, HAHAHAHAHA, that's an excellent name and most likely what he would have been called, had he ever even stepped into Macedonia, which I dont completely deny, but which you have failed to show any trace of. You what is funny, that you naturally wrote KUBER(turk name)OGLU("son of" in turkish)BITOLSKI(slavicization). Yes, it does sound funny when you Slavicize a Turk, like Asparuk Volgarov, Omurtag Turchinski, Kovrat Kurac, and all the rest, hehe
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RuseBG, the horse legs must be yours bre Kojnar, didn't your asian ancestors arrive on horses from the steppe you Mongol? You have any cousins in Hungary?
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If you still wonder why we call you funny here's the answer:
" had he ever even stepped into Macedonia, which I dont completely deny, but which you have failed to show any trace of..."
and:
"Во некрополата "Млака" пред тврдината во Дебреште, Прилеп, откопани се гробови со наоди од доцниот 7. и 8. век. Тие се делумно или целосно кремирани и не се ниту ромеjски, ниту словенски. Станува збор наjвероjатно, за Кутригурите."
Because you obviously have problems with comprehending, here's it again:
" had he ever even stepped into Macedonia, which I dont completely deny, but which you have failed to show any trace of..."
and:
"Во некрополата "Млака" пред тврдината во Дебреште, Прилеп, откопани се гробови со наоди од доцниот 7. и 8. век. Тие се делумно или целосно кремирани и не се ниту ромеjски, ниту словенски. Станува збор наjвероjатно, за Кутригурите."
So you say no traces, a?
Well, check this out ONCE AGAIN:
"Во некрополата "Млака" пред тврдината во Дебреште, Прилеп, откопани се гробови со наоди од доцниот 7. и 8. век. Тие се делумно или целосно кремирани и не се ниту ромеjски, ниту словенски. Станува збор наjвероjатно, за Кутригурите."
"Hehehehhe, nice one bre Antikomi, that's pretty funny considering that these people are more than likely your true ancestors, who came from BULGAN."
and
Let's see what is this place called Prilep:
"Прилеп (други форми: Parleap, Pirlepe и Perlepe) е град од 73 925 жители, покрива 1 675 квадратни километри во северниот дел на Пелагонија во јужниот дел на Република Македонија. Прилеп е дел од Општина Прилеп и до него се стасува преку М5/Е65. Се наоѓа на само 128км (воздушна линија) од главниот град Скопје и на 32км од Крушево."
So you say this:
"Во некрополата "Млака" пред тврдината во Дебреште, Прилеп, откопани се гробови со наоди од доцниот 7. и 8. век. Тие се делумно или целосно кремирани и не се ниту ромеjски, ниту словенски. Станува збор наjвероjатно, за Кутригурите."
is nearer to Sofia, than to Skopje, right? O.k. I believe you, but you should see a doctor, right AWAY my dear pathetic MONGOLIAN friend....
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a be antikomunist , Абе човек...защо тези сизифовски усилия точно тук?
Не виждаш ли, че да обясниш нещо на такива лумпени като Смех-Копитата , драскащи в този форум, е като да направиш от пръдня боя?
Не става.
Много ми е драго да го чета тоя Първо бяхме турци , после татари , сега сме монголи ... хахахах , и на всичко отгоре сега имаме 5 пъти по голяма територия от фиром мани по неговата логика всички са българи смотаняк , що ли не го игнорирате , се питам аз ? Колко фироми се изредиха тука да питат какви ли не глупости , ама тоя е уникален не се е вясвал такъв простак досега
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Kuberogluuuuuuuuuuu, don't be upset be BATKA, hahaha, like I told you when you write things in that Mongolized Slav then I don't pay attention, I am asking you for some documentation that Kuber was in Macedonia, and if he was in fact then what traces are there of him, surely not langauge, surely not Mongol culture, then what is it? A few graves? What Roman historian mentions him? Or any other contemporary historian for that matter? I am not trying to be difficult with you Antikomi, I just want some answer considering you are all "right".
Hristaki you hellenized bolgar Slav, get back on your horsie and ride back to the steppes you Mongol, ride back to mother Bulgan where brother Ghengis waits for you.
By the way, whats funny is not that I am posting here, but rather that if it weren't for me in the last few weeks and the responses by you people to me then this Bulgan forum would be empty.
PS: Hristaki, don't forget to keep your heels tucked in, just like Sriko Asparuk and Batka Omurtag taught you, hehehehe
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ма аз нищо не му обяснявам, аз му се подигравам, меко казано не е трудно, а пък е гот да го гледаш как се гърчи. Ако знае колко още монголци у ФИРОМ съм му приготвил да види - ум че му зайде......направо че се скрие право у Монголия, откъдето и произлиза.
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“Как вы уже знаете, христолюбцы, выше мы изложили отчасти то, что касается славян, так называемого предводителя Хацона и авар, которые, после того как опустошили Иллирийские окрестности, я хочу сказать обе Паннонии, а также обе Дакии, Дарданию, Мизию, Превалу, Родопы и все области еще и Фракию до большой стены Византии …” (ЦЕН8 с. 25; ГИБИ3 с. 158-159)
Подняв своих людей, Кубер победил авар и славян, перешел через Дунай, пришел в районе Солуни и занял поле, называемое “Керамизия” (Кера + Мизия ?)."
“… с этого времени произошло смешение болгар с аварами и другими народами, и народили детей одни от других и стали наконец многочисленным и большим народом.” (цит. по ЦЕН8 с. 25; ГИБИ3 с. 158-159)
- так обращается к своим читателям автор старой рукописи “Чудеса св. Дмитрия Солуньского”, содержащей эмоциональный рассказ о набегах некоего Хацона и диких племен авар и славян. Читая текст, перед нами встает яркая картина прошлого.
Аварче ли си монголче ли си, татарче ли си, фиромче ли си, уще документи сакаш или доволно ти е?
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You Mongols sure do have a thing about horses, must be the old tendencies of the Steppes where your horse was your closest friend, LITERALLY!!! hehehe, well at least we have a horse for the fellows below, you know, the Chinese looking guys that you believe are your fathers
A bre volgari nepismeni, dont dare try to claim us Macedonians, we do not look up to Asians as our ancestors.
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KOMITADJI SLAVONIAN TATAR!DO NOT BROKE OUR BALLS!YOUR FREAKY LAND IS BULGAR TERITORY!U HAVE BULGARIAN LANGUAGE AND NAMES TOPONYMS!TRY TO UNDERSTAND..
GO TO HELL AND JUST C THIS..
HEIL 1912!MACEDONIA BACK TO MOTHERLAND GREECE!
YOUR DELCEV WAS BULGARIAN MISIRKOV TO
AND U R SONS OF KHAN ASPARUCH!
AND BY THE WAY.. STRUMICA IS BULGARIAN TOWN!
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Pavle, here is an idea, go and fvck that whore of a mum like you usually do. The Bulgars spoke Turk when they came to the Balkans and they recieved their tongue from my people.
By the way dlckhead, Strumica is originally a Thracian word and therefore a Slavic one, Bulgarian town? Hehe, you moron, the Strumicani are one the most patriotic ETHNIC MACEDONIANS there are.
PS: Don't forget to bang that mum of your the stupid whore.
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копитаджи не ти ли омръзна да се "самозастрелваш" по форумите?
щом думата "струмица" е с тракийски произход,значи там са живели траки.с това си изказване признаваш че днешните македонци немат нищо общо със античните.по простата причина че такива там не са живели.
верно е че прабългарите заемат славянския език,но това няма как да стане ако тези два етноса не са се смесили в едно.интересното което пропускаш е че чисто прабългарски думи като "куче" "бъбрек" "буен" "тояга" "кумир" и др. се срещат само във вашия измислен език.как е станало това,требва сам да се сетиш.
и за твоя информация езикът на прабългарите е най близък до иранските говори,които немат нищо общо със тюркските езици.
чистокръвен македонец наследник на ачо "меката китка"
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Ajde dosta be Turcin, so tvojot Slavo-Turksi dialect. Ti mozis da se lazis, da mislis deka ne si Turcin, ama si bre Turce, VSICKI VO VOLGARSKA SE TURCI, hahaha,
Eve ti cist Bolgarin
haahahahahahahaha
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Hehe, thats funny Lekare, but seriously though, considering you actually believe in your Tatr bullshi.t, it is more than likely that Moron is the ancestor city of such morons as yourself and the rest of the dimwits here such as Hrakiefgreekname, and those other morons.
On the other hand however, there is nothing you can say to sever the OBVIOUS closeness of the Mongol city of BULGAN, with your national BULGAR, and the rest of the tatars of the steppes that go by that name. Ajde, vratete se vo Majka Mongloska ako vie tolku milo i ostavete go balkanot na Evropite, jasno *****?
This message has been edited by Dr.Johnson on May 9, 2006 11:00 AM
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Coins of Turkic Bolgars IX-Xth with Turkic script on it.
Black Chamber at the city of Bulgar (Bolgar)
Idil Bulgar Mosque and the Russian Church
The Khan's Masoleum (foreground) and the Small Minaret
The map showing the historical habitat of the Turkic Bolgars.
Some Notes about Volga Bolgars:
Since the middle of the VIIIth century the Turkic-speaking Bolgar tribes penetrated into the Middle Volga region. The most well-known among them are the Barandgars, the Bolgars, the Bersula, the Suvar and others, who came from the regions of the north-western pre-Caucasus as a result of the Arabian-Khazar wars of the 732-735.
Nearer to the Xth century came the second wave of the Bolgar migration to the Middle Volga and the Kama region from the southern steppes. At the same time constant immigration of the Ural-Kama and South Ural population, including the Ugrian (Madjar) tribes, was taking place.
In VIIIth - Xth centuries the basis of the culture of the new people - the Volga Bulgarians - is being laid as a result of the interaction of the Turkic-speaking Bolgar tribes and the Finno-Ugrian population. In the Xth century the early-feudal state of the Volga Bulgaria has been formed in the Middle Volga region. During the period of its formation Bulgaria was in the state of vassalage with the Khazar khanate and occupied a small territory in the region of Kama and Volga confluence. It was as early as that time that several towns - tribal centres - existed. They are Suvar, Bolgar on Volga, Bolgar-Bilyar, Oshel', etc.
One of the main supports of the state was the Moslem religion, officially accepted by the Bulgars in the beginning of the Xth century. The flourish of the Volga Bulgaria corresponds to the XIth - beginning of the XIII century. The basic territory of the state significantly grew.
The archaeologists nowadays recognise more than 1500 Bulgarian sites of the pre-Mongolian time on the territory of Bulgaria. The foundation of economy of the Volga Bulgaria was the highly developed plough agriculture and animal husbandry. Crafts were of great significance - metallurgy, blacksmith's, jewellery, building, pottery-making, glass-making, bone-cutting, tannery, weaver's crafts and others. The third important component of the Bulgarian economy was trade.
The flourish of the Bulgarian trade was much due to the location of the state on the most important intercontinental trade route - the Volga-Baltic route as well as to the high level of the craft and farming development.
In 1223-1240 Bulgaria recklessly resisted to the Mongol hordes which strove to conquer the state. The unequal struggle resulted in the conquest of Bulgaria, the havoc of its economy and culture, the destruction of the cities. The devastated Volga Bulgaria was included into the Golden Horde.
In the Museum funds the culture of the pre-Mongolian Bulgaria is represented by numerous materials. The basic collections are АКУ-2, АКУ-85, АКУ-87, АКУ-94 - "Bolgar, Bilyar and other sites" - the united collection, the basis of which is constituted by the materials of the Society for Archaeology, History and Ethnography of the Emperor's Kazan University; АКУ-278, АКУ-279 - the sites of the Low Kama region (excavations and explorings by E.A.Begovatov, K.A.Rudenko in 1991-1997); АКУ-262, АКУ-285 - "The Bilyar site of ancient city, the inner town, the potter's workshop, the alchemist's workshop" - research by S.I.Valiulina.
"The Bolgars originally moved to the Middle Volga region in the second half of the 8th century. They arrived here from the Lower Don and the northwestern Caucasus, where in their early history they also had links with the Huns. One branch of the Bulgars moved westward from the Caucasus to the Danube, where they formed the ruling elite of the first Bulgarian state founded in 681."
"-The Turkic Bulgars who did not move into the Danube valley, who held to the wild eastern steppes, eventually were pushed by Khazar expansion northward up the Volga valley in the lands around the city Kazan where they formed a significant Islamic or Muslim Bolgar khanate."
Ogur history goes far back. It is probable that they are related to U-suns (Wu-suns) living in the slopes of Tanri mountain toward late 3rd century B.C. However, such relation seems to pertain mostly to the region U-suns lived (maybe their ex-country). This is because there are evidences that Ogurs lived in far north in Kobdo, Tarbagatay region in the same period. Chinese sources talk about a nation called "Ho-chieh" or "Wu-chieh" there. F. Birth said the Chinese formation of the name may have derived from a word which was originally pronounced like "UGIR" (not Uygur). This name is nothing but "Ogur" for Gy. Nemeth who confirmed him. One of the most important branches of Ogurs in Middle Asia in early 3rd Century B.C. was Tinglings who were told to live in Middle and Southern Irtis and took marten, white and blue fox ("Kun-tsun" = KIRSA~ Karsak-steppe fox) and in particular red squirrel skins to China. The names of these famous red squirrel merchants are also in Turkish: Tingli=Teyin'li=SiNCAPli. Indeed, all Ogurs were known for fur trade. Red squirrel skin was the leading one among precious furs.
Besides this intense hunting and fur trade skills of Ogur Turks which distinguished them from their animal breeding brothers, another of their skills was that they were good farmers in accordance with the conditions of the geographical region they lived in the west. They conducted all kinds of agriculture and fruit growing with the highest level of their times. The Ogur words included in Hungarian language in that period proves that.
It is certain especially from their roles in Attila period that Ogurs, who were understood to be the neighbors of people remaining from Huns who withdrew to the same region after collapse of Зi-зi Tanhu state in Middle Asia (36 B.C.) were linked to European Huns who turned to be a world empire in the west quickly afterwards. Upon the collapse of Hun empire and losing of the central authority (between 460-470 ), we see that they gathered around Irnek, who was known to come from the west, together with the Hun mass, and established a Bulgarian State. Ogurs subsisted their unity in times of Irmek's successor Mundo (Muncuk?) and 4 subsequent rulers until 550's. They are found out to spread as follows in this period: On-ogurs in the north Caucasus (to the east of Azak), Otuz-ogurs in Don-Volga turn region, Dokuz-ogurs in steppes toward Dnieper. The ones to the east entered Sabar and Gok-Turk dominance respectively when they reached azak Sea (in 576 ). For Menandros, a woman leader called Ak-kagan appointed by Otuz-ogur Ruler Anagaios (Turkish A-LI: ana-aga?) was one of those who entered Gok-Turk rule.
Dokuz-ogur (Kara-Bulgars?) in the west continued their relations with Byzantium from whom they collected annual taxes sometimes as friends and sometimes as enemies. Their constant pressure on Byzantium claiming the Slav masses forced Emperor Anastasios (491-518 ) to construct the "long rampart" to protect capital city Istanbul.
They took part in Italian wars under Byzantium general Belizarios command in 530 and helped Gepids fighting Longobards with 10 thousand horsemen. However, Byzantium-just like China-applied the same trick to Ogurs. She incited disagreements between Dokuz-ogur and otuz-ogur brothers and made them attack on each other. She made some of the defeated Dokuz-ogurs inhabit in Thrace (2 thousand families). There was no use in Otuz-ogurs' appearing near Istanbul with a sudden march to Balkans (550 ) now. Weakening of Ogur dominance in north Black Sea facilitated Avars' rapid advance toward the west taking some masses of Ogur-Bulgar Turks together with them (in years after 558 ). Bulgars, who fought in Dalmatia under Bayan Khan's command formed supplementary forces for Avars in 626 Istanbul siege. They spread to Balkans, North Italy and Hungary. About 9 thousand Bulgarian families disliking Avars were first moved to Baviera and then Italy (2nd half of 7th century.)
Before the fifth century A.D., the Magyars' ancestors gradually migrated southward onto the Russian steppes, where they wandered into the lands near the Volga River bend, at present-day Kazan, as nomadic herders. Later, probably under pressure from hostile tribes to the east, they migrated to the area between the Don and lower Dnepr rivers. There they lived close to, and perhaps were dominated by, the Bulgar-Turks from about the fifth to the seventh century. During this period, the Magyars became a semisedentary people who lived by raising cattle and sheep, planting crops, and fishing. The Bulgar-Turkish influence on the Magyars was significant, especially in agriculture. Most Hungarian words dealing with agriculture and animal husbandry have Turkic roots. By contrast, the etymology of the word Hungary has been traced to a Slavicized form of the Turkic words on ogur, meaning "ten arrows," which may have referred to the number of Magyar tribes."
"Where do the Bolgars of the Volga come from? As early as AD 550, Gothic annals mention the Turkic tribes of the Bolgars living to the north of the Black Sea. The powerful state of the Bolgars in the Black Sea area held out in the wars with Byzantium, but fell under the pressure of the Turkic Khazars, a vanished people who dominated much of Eurasia in the seventh century. From the descendants of these tribes who went wandering over Europe came the Balkan Bulgars, the Volga Bulgars, and even the Caucasian tribes of Balkars, Kumyks and Karachays. The founders of modern Bulgaria, today's Tatarstan and neighbouring Chuvashia were, in the fifth to seventh century, one and the same people. Though the Balkan Bulgars, having accepted Christianity, soon lost their Turkic characteristics, nonetheless they preserved the old name of their country. The Kazan Tatars, on the other hand, preserved everything except their name. Such are the paradoxes of history."
Dont get upset, Doctor. I am sure you are Slavic. Here is more than you wish:
The monetary circulation in the Middle and Low Volga regions and the Ural region in the Middle Ages.
The finds of Ancient (Greek and Roman), as well as Ancient Oriental (Kushanian, Chinese) coins are known in the Middle and Low Volga regions and the Ural region. In the IIIrd- VIIth centuries AD the Sasanian (Vth-VIIth centuries), Khorezm (VIth-VIIth centuries) and Byzantine (VIth-VIIth centuries) coins appeared in the region. At the monuments of the Imenkovo culture we can find bronze ingots of standard weight (the average weigh data are located between 98 and 106 grams), which probably circulated as goods-money.
In the beginning of the •th century in the Middle Volga and Kama regions, in the north-east of Europe, on the basis of consolidation of the Ugric-language and Turkic-language tribes, an economically well-developed state Volga Bulgaria appeared. Situated in the middle of the Volga trade route, at the confluence of the two greatest east European rivers - Volga and Kama ? it became not only a transit transfer centre, but also an active exporter of its own goods.
In the Xth century in Suvar and Bulgar the minting of the own Volga Bulgaria coins took place. Apparently, these small emissions aimed at the goals of prestige. The main means of monetary circulation in the state were silver cufic coins (dirhems) of the Arabian Khalifat countries, which played an important role in the trade in the Volga-Kama territory since the VIII century, when the Volga route was the main one to transfer the oriental silver to the eastern Slavs and further to the Baltic, Scandinavian and West European countries. In the VIII-X centuries the cufic dirhems came to the Volga and Ural regions in large quantities. Sometimes copper felses appeared in the region; extremely seldom golden dinars appeared here.
In the beginning of the XIth century the importation of the cufic coins to Europe stopped, and in the Volga Bulgaria, as well as in Rus of the XI - XII centuries, the 'coinless' period began. The means of payment during the trade deals were silver ingots or their fragments, as well as cut and pieces of the cufic dirhems. In the Volga region there were found also rare samples of the West European denariuses of the XI-XII centuries.
In the middle of the XIIIth century, earlier than in Saray, in Bulgar the minting of the Golden Horde coins began (some researchers, basing on the well-known coins with the name of khalif an-Nasir lid-Din Allah, not bearing either Jochid or Chingisid tamga, suppose that the minting in Bulgar was resumed as early as the pre-Mongol time). The level of development of the monetary circulation (especially of copper coins) in the Volga-Ural region in the Golden Horde time was so high that later it could be surpassed only during the Peter The Great reign. The minting in Ulus Jochi took place on dozens of mints, including the Volga ones - Bilyar, Bulgar, Bulgar al-Djedid, Gulistan, Kerman, Mokhsha, Saray (Saray al-Makhrusa), Saray al-Djedid, Haji-Tarkhan and Ukek.
The first East European Chingisid coins were minted in Bulgar in the name of the kaans, top rulers of the Mongol Empire, Mengu (Munke) (1251-1259) and Arig-Buga (1259-1264). The coinage in the name of the Golden Horde khans began, probably, during the reign of Mengu-Timur (1266-1282) and is connected with the complete independence of the Jochid state. The important role in the stabilisation of the monetary circulation was played during a number of decades by the money-weight reform, carried out during the khan Tokta reign in 710 A.H. (1310-1311 AD), which unified the weight of the Golden Horde silver coins. The monetary system, disturbed by the internecine wars of the 60s - 70s of the XIV century, was settled by the Toktamysh reform of 1380, according to which, like during the Tokta reform, all coins of the previous issues were exempted out of circulation. The reform of 1400, carried out during the reign of Shadibek, apparently could not completely and for long unify the money-weight system of Ulus Jochi as a whole.
On the Bulgar monuments during nearly 200 years the collection of materials, including numismatic, was carried out. The museums of Kazan, Moscow, St.-Petersburg, Bolgar, Bilyarsk, Helsinki, Samara and other cities and towns contain collections of several thousands samples. These materials promoted the appearance of the oriental Numismatics in Russia, basically thanks to the works by Ch.M.Fraehn (1782-1851), who began to study these problems at Kazan University.
Undoubted is the role of Ch.M.Fraehn in the creation of interest for the oriental Numis matics first in Kazan, and then all over Russia. Due to this interest dozens of hoards and thousands of ancient coins were later saved from destruction.
Not only Russian orientalists, but also statesmen and businessmen took part in the creation of the unique state and private collections. It is due to the efforts of these personalities that the numismatic collection of the museum of the Society of Archaeology, History and Ethnography at Kazan University, which was considered to be one of the best in Russia and which was transferred after the close of the Society to the present National Museum of the Republic of Tatarstan.
The whole collected material has played an important role in the study of not only Numismatics and History of the Volga Bulgaria and the Golden Horde, but the past of the Oriental states as well.
The numismatic material available for the authors is supposed to be presented on the University server.
In 2001 during the works of archaeological expedition of Kazan State University, the hoard was found near Bilyarsk.
In 1909 A.K. Markov published the information concerning the hoard which had been found in the village Krasnyi (former Kreschenyi) Baran in Spaskii region of Kazan province. This village is located in 14 km from Bilyarsk. The contents of these two hoards are similar.
During excavations in 2001, it was established that the new hoard had been hidden in the small clay vessel at a depth of 40-45 cm in the soil. This vessel was broker by a plough, and a part of the vessel was drawn out an the ground. The weight of the new hoard exceeds twice the weight of the hoard found in the village Kreschenii Baran. The same rate takes place for the quantities of coins contained in these hoards.
Shems al-Ma'ali Qabus b. Washmigir (978-1012) with the names of Abbasidic halifs al-Ta'i-lillah (974-991)
(d=24, w=5.01) (next)
Shems al-Ma'ali Qabus b. Washmigir (978-1012) with the names of Abbasidic halifs al-Kadir-billah (991-1031)
(d=24, w=4.86) (next)
Ali ben Mamuna's (997-1015) dirhems with the name of halif al-Kadir-billah (991-1031) (d=26, w=3.92) (next)
Ali b. Nasr ad-daula Chalif at-Ta'i lillah (974-991) Dgurdgan 387 AH (d=26, w=5.81) (next)
Except for a 2.98- gram weight, the new hoard consists of whole, cut and broken Cufic coins which belong to the end of 10 th and the beginning of 11 the century. By preliminary investigation, there are the following coins: dirhams of the Mamunid Ali b. Mamun 387- 406 AH (997-1015) (Khwarizmshah of the 2nd dynasty); dirhams of the Ziyarid Shems al- Ma'ali Qabus b. Washmigir- 366-403 AH (976- 1012); several tens of anonymous coins; 33 dirhams of the Buwayhid Adud ad- daul wa Tadg al- Mill, Fahr ad- daul (2 types of mint dated by 374- 379 AH and third type of mint dated by 380 AH and subsequent years (by R. Fasmer)), Fahr ad- daule and Husrau Firuz, Madjd ad- daul; 4 samanids dirhems (Nuh b. Mansur); 1 dirhem of the Simdgurid Abu Ali Muhammad with the name of name Nuh b. Mansur; 3 Qarakhanids dirhems with the names of Qutb ad- daul Qara-kaqan, Muhammad b. Ali, Sina ad- daula.
In addition, small number of whole dirhems and their large fragmentation's is not defined yet or cannot be read.
There are greater than thousand small fragments of cut and broken dirhams.
Earlier found dirhams are defined by G.A. Fedorov- Davydov and the author.
The results of the quantitative spectral analysis far samples of 24 coins (samples No 1 and No 2 are taken from interior and exterior layers of dirham) and listed in the table. For comparison, in the table there is the layer of a silver round bar, which is rolled up info a pipe. This bar is from Spask hoard.
The spectral analysis is done by researcher R.H. Hramchenkova.
Archaeological works are supported by Russian Human Scientific Foundation (project No 01-01-18115 e) and Russian Foundation for Basic Research (project No 02-06-80205 a).
Thanks for the link, Pan-turk.
It only proved what I already suspected. The runes are NOT of the provenly Turkic Orchon type. The runes on inscriptions in Bulgaria are also different from Orchon and more importantly are written from LEFT to RIGHT unlike Turkic inscriptions.
So you didn't prove anything with your 'Turkic coins'. The legend on the coin CAN NOT be read and the underlying language is therefore uncertain.
Try me again!
This message has been edited by Dr.Johnson on May 10, 2006 10:19 PM
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First of all, I am not a Pan-Turk, but I am interested in history.
The Turks used various scripts, but what really matters is the language that they used. As you must have already realized, that coin database defines the coins as Turkic, however, you might have different theories like anybody else could, and I respect that.
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"На основании этого можно предположить, что неизвестные надписи на легенде выполнены тюркским руническим письмом либо подражанием ему. "
It reads: On the grounds of this we can assume that the unknown writing on the coin was made with turcic runic scipt OR ITS IMMITATION.
Bellow in the text you can read that 26 out of total of 46 signs coincide with Turcic ones. So it is definetely a distinct alfabeth serving a non-turcic langauage. If not so why the need of replacing half of the signs?
Take few modern examples: Turkie today uses latin alfabet but some of the sighs are changed to suit your language which is not even Indo-Europian. Bulgarian alfabet was derived from the Greek but only about half of the letters coincide. Same for the Latin/Greek case.
If we had such a wide spread script as the Orchon type, why the heck someone who lives roughly on the same teritory would need to implement a NEW one which only partly resembles the most popular Turcic script??? I will tell you why - to write a DIFFERENT language.
History knows many case like that.
I am also interested in history Janissary and I must tell you that the deeper I dig the firmer is my convince of Bulgars having been an Arian tribe.
At least 90% percent of the surviving names and the historic ones coincide with names mentioned in Vedas or have Iranian origin. There are other clues as well. I never denied a small Turkic admixture as well as Caucasian one.
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Janissary, I just found out that the text on the coins is written from Left to Right, UNLIKE Orchon runes.
Look here. Have you noticed the word dividers:
The authors of the site are assuming that a divider marks the END of a word, and thus try to read the text from RIGHT to LEFT.
In that case there is an extra 'unnessesary' divider:
It looks like the yellow marked divider shows the end of word 1 as WELL as divider B1. Looks like something is wrong here. Yes, something is really wrong - the text is written and therefore meant to be read from LEFT to RIGHT. The dividers B1, B2, B3 and B4 show the BEGINING of a word nad NOT the end.
If the text was written from right to left then the position of the dividers would have been as shown on the picture.
So now we have an alfabet which is ONLY similar to the Turkic one BUT written in the opposite direction. We are another step closer to proving the language on this coins is not Turkic(if it was someone would have read it by now). The text is written in a dead language, may be Khazar, since the signs dont look very similar to those found in Bulgaria.
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I am sure the Turkic Bolgars are interacted with Persians, but this is not the plot anyway. We know that you (the European Bulgars) are Slavic more than anthing else. Thus, the history of Volga Bulgaria is related to the direct descendants of the Turkic Bolgars such as the Kumyks, Balkars, Karachays, Bashkirs, and Crieman and Volga Tatars. In a sense, it is interesting that you suggest Arian heritage for us.
There could be other alphabets or scripts since the other versions of the runic scripts are even used by the Hungarians or Scandinavians. The possibilities are for sure many. In fact, the Orkhun script is derived from Sogdian alphabet, but it would be naive to claim that the Turks only used that one. Thus, please note that the Turks in Russia now use the Russian script, but does having a different alphabet compared to the Azeris of Iran stand for a different language? I dont think so.
In fact, Turkic Bolgars used to reside around Khazar region, and close to the mountains of Caucasus at where different tribes and peoples come and pass by. So, it does not surprise me to see coins with disputed origins. However, what can not be disputed is the origin of the Turkic Bolgars which still carried to present day with the existence proof of the Turkic people like Chuvash, Karachai or Balkars. Chuvash case is partiularly interesting since they are the Turkic peoples who still speak a Turkic Bolgar dialect despite having accepted christianity during middle ages, and despite having lived under Russian rule for centuries.
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Those could be related to Khazars, or any other tribe who used to live around this region back in time. We know that some of the Turkic tribes even used versions of the Herbew-based scripts. Thus, there are many coins found in the region which bear differing scripts, which are some replicates of some others coins, and even happened to be printed with some errors on them.
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Doctor Who (Login Dr.Johnson) Bulgaria Forum Mods Group
Re: Macedonian-Bulgarian Dialogue
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May 12 2006, 9:16 PM
So, Panturk, everything that doesn't fit your pan-turkism is an ERROR?:)There are even some 'scolars' who have similar attitudes, they even tried to 'fix' the 'errors'. History is laughing at them know.
No, my friend, both examples show exactly the same version of the coin.
Also please note the dating is VIII-IX century. (Bilingual unidentified coin of VIII-IXth Centuries. Dirham.) By that time Kubrat Bulgaria had disintegrated and was succeded by the Kharazian Empire.
At last, did you check where one of the coins was found?
-Tallin, Estonia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallin
Too far from Volga Bulgaria, so it could not have been Bulgar. The strong Turkic influence on the characters again leads us to Khazaria. Bulgar runes used earlier are somehow different.
There could be different coins with different scripts, and Turkic (Balkars, Bolgars) might also had some other script/alphabet that they used before the ones known at present, such as the script that the King Scytians used.
Coin discovery sheds light on Turkic civilization
"Gцktьrk find refutes claims that the Turkic peoples were merely plunderers and barbarians"
Ancient coins from the first known Turkic culture, the Gokturks, have been discovered during archeological excavations in Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, reported the Dogan News Agency.
Associate Professor Yavuz Daloglu, an instructor at Dokuz Eylьl University who presented the findings of historian Dr. Babayar Gaybullah to the public, stated that claims asserting that the Gokturk people did not have any structure of governance have been proven wrong by this discovery. He commented that this discovery refutes claims that the Turkic peoples were merely plunderers and barbarians.
Daloglu, who attended the Second International Turkish Civilization Congress sponsored by Kyrgyzstan-Turkey Menas University in Bishkek on Oct. 4-6 2004, met with Uzbek historian Gaybullah. Daloglu began studying coins from ancient Turkic civilization brought to the congress by Gaybullah and came across the Gokturk pieces, which he had never seen before. He said these were an important discovery in the history of Turkic civilization. Stating that he was familiar with coins from the Selcuk and Ottoman eras, he said he had never heard nor read that the Gokturks had minted coins of their own. On one face of the coin was the likeness of a khan in the center with three stars and a moon on the edges.
6th Century Coin of the Gokturk Empire (also known as Celestial Turks) with Cresent and Star on it:
Coins belonging to the Turgis of the eighth century, after the Gokturks, had previously been discovered, but the Gokturk coins date from approximately 150 to 200 years earlier, around A.D. 576-600. This discovery is as important as the discovery of Orhun script. Money is used where social trade and economy exist, indicating an important contribution to world civilization.
The coins are believed to be in Sogd, Baktri and Pehlevi script with titles such as Kagan, Hatun, Yabgu, Tegin Tudun, Tarhan and Elteber. The various levels of authority can be understood from observing these coins, as the names of state officials are engraved beside the khans' names. Daloglu stated that important information has come to light with the studies conducted on these ancient coins.
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Anonymous (Login Dr.Johnson) Bulgaria Forum Mods Group
Re: Macedonian-Bulgarian Dialogue
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May 15 2006, 5:39 PM
Pan-Turk there isn't such thing as 'Turkic civilization' and never was.
Turks are the only people who contributed virtually zero to the Europian civilization. No argument about that. For that reason Turkie will never be part of Europe - Turks only take and give NOTHING in return.
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Pan-Turk there isn't such thing as 'Turkic civilization' and never was.
Turks are the only people who contributed virtually zero to the Europian civilization. No argument about that. For that reason Turkie will never be part of Europe - Turks only take and give NOTHING in return.
------------------------------------------------------
Excellent analysis, I congradulate you for such a conclusive remark.
Have a nice day.
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Anonymous (Login Dr.Johnson) Bulgaria Forum Mods Group
Re: Macedonian-Bulgarian Dialogue
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May 16 2006, 11:57 AM
Have a nice life.
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Keep your silly remarks for yourself and think what's gonna happen when the time to pay the price for supporting USA against Iraq comes. You will be isolated by Europe and the Middle East. None of your neighbours likes you.
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You dont seem to like my remarks, but you do enjoy utilizing cheap sexual insults. Sounds quite fair to me...
Well, nobody is designated to be loved by everyone. We had some tough times when we were in decline, but honestly, we dont need Europe as much as you do at present. Thus, we have good realtions with Syria, Iran, Azerbaijan in the East. Furthermore, the Arabs really love us these days after having encountered the western style "democracy and human rights" in Iraq.
We are doing just fine...
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Finally, we did not support invasion of Iraq back in 2003, and refused deployment of the US troops via Turkey.
In fact, for that reason, we had problems with the US after the fall of Saddam. However, European countries like Italy, Spain, Denmark, Poland, and the UK sent troops to Iraq despite lacking an international agreement, and some still keep their troop there in Iaq.
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forget about the minor isults of Dr.johnson . I want to ask you one question .
Is there any single drop of intension in you or in turkey as a country to dictate on Bulgarian politics , to take a piece of our land again or any other cruel intensions ? Please answer me ?
We know better than you what our culture is ! We thank you for yuor 500 years presence(the kindest word i could use ! ) on our lands ! We don't need or want you anymore . Let's just be good neighbours, ok ?
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the bulgarian or any other slavic young boys that were taken from their parents as kids and thought islam . the fanatic soldiers of the sultan . the so called blood taxes to the raya ...one of the most unhuman and terrifing folk habits i have ever heard of . yep it was turkish indeed .
btw what does Janissary stand for ?
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20% of Bulgaria is ethnic Turk, the Turk population of Bulgaria mostly live next to Turkish territories ***********************************.
____________________________________________________________
Komitadji mind your language, bro!
This message has been edited by Dr.Johnson on May 17, 2006 12:02 PM
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Vijdal sam postingi -te mu no sled kato raznishtihme smisula na eni4arin t e hristian4eta vzemani ot roditelite im pod formata na kraven danuk za men vaznikna vaprosa toi po kakuv na4in to4no se otugdestviava kato eni4arin.
Ako shte ta dvardi 4e e ot vogkite bulgari roda mu te sa musulmani ot 10 vek nasam i sas sigurnost nito edin ot tiah ne e bil eni4arin
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Janissary thinks that Ottoman empire was a natural continuation of Byzatine Empire
----------------------
It can't be )))
Ottomans destroied Byzantine, Bulgaria, Serbia and established Ottoman empire - new one. Musulman state can't be succssesor for Christian state
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You makedonist zombie (a mean you Komitadji) how do you dare to say that we are turks ,when
our ancestors fought and gave their blood to free Bulgaria from the turkish rule !!! HOW DO YOU DARE when only in the April rebelion in 1876 for a mounth over 30 000 bulgarians were barbaricly slain by the regular Ottoman army and bashibozuk hordes.The next year (1877-1878) is known for the Turkis-Russian war ,in which our brave ancestors fougth sight by sight with our orthodox brothers the russians against the muslim hordes.
One more thing ,in my family tree I have grand grand fathers who died in strugle against th e turks and my entire family even today hails and remembers them as heroes.
Even this tiny piece of information shows than your general statement (at least from what I
managed to read from the posts above) that we the mighty and proud people of Bulgaria were
turks is more than idiotical. I think that that strange idea of yours comes from your fanatical hatered toward us...
BULGARIAN GOVERMENT AND PEOPLE NEVER ACTED AS AGRESORS ON THE BALKANS !!! Not as some of our neighbours the turks ,the Serbs after 1878 and even the greecs (but their agresion is mainly cultural). FOR GOD'S SAKE , WHY DO YOU HATE US SO MUCH ?!
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I recognize you as a Bulgarian, do you recognize me as a Macedonian? Answer yes and you will see how reasonable I am. Answer no and start to behave like your co-nationals here then you will know why I dislike many Bulgarians. I don't hate Bulgarians, even though as a Macedonian there are plenty of reasons why I should, but I don't like the way my people are treated by yours in Bulgaria or anywhere else for that matter.
As for me calling you Turks, this is what the real Bolgari were, unless you can tell me other Slavic kings called KHAN Asparuk? By the time your people adopted the Bulgarian name as an ethnic one its meaning meant a peasant.
Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli
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OK Komitadji you are a Macedonian allright!I also agree that some of my brethren are a little bit unintelligent in the way they they respond to you in this forum.
I THINK YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT, WE AND YOU THE MACEDONIAN ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH EACH OTHER!WE HAVE LIVED FOR CENTURIES HERE ON THE BALKANS SEPARATED AND TOTALY DIFFERENT,AS NATIONS,ONE FROM ANOTHER ! YES I AGREE!
... but you see ,from the first glance I am a little confused ,even thou I'm ready to woreship the doctrine of the Macedonism! My confusion comes not from anything other but from that picture of the flag that you ,I supose with pasion and patriotism, have putten in your post. The message from the flag "За Нея се боримь,за Нея ние мремь." is mysteriously similar to the message that was written on every bulgarion flag "Свобода или смърт" in the period when we fought for freedom.And do you see the man that is standing proudly and caries a raffle and a nife? Hummm ... I don't know ... I think that that large red belt and
kalpak (I don't know the english word for that,but I'm prety shore you will understand what
i mean) look to me familiar.I wonder where I have seen similar outfit? Hmmm... but never mind it is not important ... the important is THAT I AGREE WITH YOU ,WE ARE TWO COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT NATIONS !
As for our turk origin I must explain it to you ,because you are in deep misunderstanding!
Serious scientists have proven after serious research THAT OUR ROOTS ARE FROM THE IRANO-Ariiskata PLEMENNA GRUPA ,from which for example the ancestors of the todays germans
come! And yes the non-slavonic Khan Asparuh came with his nomads (because you are right they were nomads and they woreshiped the horse as a divine animal) the pra-bulgars and together with the local slavs im Misia and Trakia forged one of the strongest bastions of
the Slavism over 1300 years ago !!!
I respect your patriotism and you as a macedonian ,I feel happy for you that Macedonia is finaly independent now from turkish and serb rule and from any other! After all if you and some of your co-nationals have worked so hard to change the factological history and "prove" that no more than 200 years ago the population of Macedonia was not mainly bulgarian (I say mainly because there were big number of greecs in the south part and not so many albans to the west ,NO SERBS !) then you don't deserve to be bulgarians! It would have been perfect to form ,as our fathers desired, one big and strong bulgarian-macedonian state ,where we all would have had equal rights and we would have all lived better from now! But you have chosen your own path,you detest us,you have been told that you have every reason to hate us and you believed. That's your right ... ако щете бийте се за него, ако щете за него мрете ...
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Чуйте ме тъпи, шибани македонисти и сърбо-гръкомани, ще пиша на български щото и без това ме разбирате. Македония винаги е била и ще бъде БЪЛГАРСКА!!! Запомнете го!! Нито сърби, нито гърци ще ни попречят да се обединим и да върнем ВЕЛИЧИЕТО НА БЪЛГАРИЯ!!! „Няма да се спра и пред най-страшните терористични действия, за да извоювам съкровената си мечта - свободна българска Македония". Това са думи на Яне Сандански, изречени през 1913 г. пред чуждестранен вестник!!! Какво повече искате!!! ВАнче Михайлов казва- "Македония без бугари,огин да я гори!" Като осмислите това пишете пак, да ви видя простотиите!
Dear friends from Albania and Bosnia we must fight against serbo-greek imperialism. We must fight for Balkans without HYPOCRITICAL greeks and serbian BETRAYER!!!
За македонистите само бой, ебане и късо стриганье.
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Внимателно ги читав сите пораки и воопшто не ми се допадна употребата на говорот на омразата и сите навреди. Потоа, на крајот го видов писанието на proud_bulgarain и си помислив дека и покрај одредени несогласувања, но и работи во кои се сложуваме, има луѓе со кои може да се разговара. Но, за жал преовладуваат вжештени националистички глави и многу ми е криво поради тоа. Изгледа дека ние на Балканот никогаш нема да можеме да разговараме како луѓе.
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CUZ I FEEL LIKE IT U FUKN JEW, ITS REALLY YIANNI/YIANNIS
ITS THE MOST POPULAR NAME IN GREECE IT MEANS JOHN IN ENGLISH IT IS LIKE GIANNI IN ITALIAN, OR GIOVANNI,
HAPPY NOW U NAZI
..................................................................................
The best post I have read. This is history in the making.
Fukn Jew....U nazi
XAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXА
ЅВЕР СИ БРАТЕ САМО НЕМА КОЈ ДА ТИ КАЖЕ!!!!
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stick that in your mind . if that district of Bulgaria was ever called macedonia in that time, which i really doubt 
