TRANSYLVANIA - ERDÉLY - VICTIM OF ETHNIC CLEANSING



King Mátyás Hunyadi in Kolozsvár


Magyar Flag


Transylvania was part and parcel of the Hungarian Kingdom, or an independent Hungarian Principality for over a thousand years.


As an integral part of the Hungarian Kingdom, Transylvania and Kolozsvár was drawn into the Western Christian Culture Circle at the beginning of the eleventh century. The architecture of old Transylvanian cities, such as Nagyvárad , Kolozsvár , Marosvásárhely, Brassó or Dés bear witness to this fact.

Besides a few scattered ruins of Roman fortifications, destroyed by the retreating Roman legions in 271 A.D., no sign of any kind would indicate a trace of an older established culture preceding the arrival of the Hungarians. Not even the legends, folk tales, ballads or folk songs of any one of the cohabiting ethnic groups suggest anything of this kind, except the oldest Hungarian (Székely) legends which date back to the time of Attila and the empire of the Huns.

If we examine the folk art, which is the most tell-tale expression of early influences, we find that the embroideries and architecture of the Transylvanian Germans relates to the embroideries and architecture of those districts of Germany where these settlers came from in the 12th and 13th centuries. In the same way, the folk art of the Transylvanian Romanians is identical with those of Moldavia and Wallachia, and they clearly show the Slavic influences, the Bulgarian, Greek, and important Albanian motifs, picked up by the migrating Vlach herdsmen on their way from the Albanian border to their present location. On the other hand, the famous art creations of the Transylvanian Hungarians, like those of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Haromszék, Udvarhely carry a basic similarity with those of other parts of Hungary, and clearly relate back to ancient Turanian (Scythian) motifs of Sumeria and Babilon.


Ancient Magyar Turul Eagle

Due to the close relations of the medieval Hungarian Kingdom with the West, talented Transylvanians found their ways to the early Universities of Europe as early as the 12th and 13th centuries. The very first student whose name became officially registered at the University of Oxford in 1193, was Miklós of Hungary, son of Kende, nobleman of Transylvania. During the 15th century there were three famous Hungarian doctors on the faculty of the University of Bologna, and one of them, Péter Pál Apati of Torda, later founded the "Free Collegium of the Noble Sciences", established in his hometown, Torda, then moved to Kolozsvár (today Cluj) by King Matthias. After the two Hungarian Universities were established, Pécs in 1367, and Buda in 1389, many Transylvanians sent their sons there, some of whom, after returning home, founded one by one the "Collegiums" of High Learning in Nagyenyed, Gyulafehérvar, Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Brassó, Arad, Zilah and Marosvásárhely.


Hungary was one of the most poweful states in Europe

Due to the ecclesiastical domination of Rome as in other Western empires, the official language of science and administration in the Hungarian Kingdom was Latin. Therefore it was only in 1527 that the first book was printed in the Hungarian language in Kolozsvár. In 1598 there were already 24 printing establishments in Transylvania, publishing by that date 382 books, of which 368 were in the Hungarian language.

There were 18 Transylvanian Hungarians enroled at the Wittenberg University in the year of 1586. Many Transylvanian Hungarians were teaching at famous Western Universities, while several famous Western scientists, such as Martin Opitz, John Alstead, Henry Bisterfeld and Isaac Basire taught in Transylvanian colleges during the 16th and 17th centuries.

In 1545 the complete translation of the Bible appeared in the Hungarian language, printed in Kolozsvár. Shortly after, in 1582, financed by Hungarians and translated by Hungarians. the Bible was published in the Vlach language.

In the 14th century two Transylvanian Hungarian brothers, Márton and György Kolozsvári, were famous sculptors. Most of their works were demolished through the many wars, except the well known statue of St.George in the city of Prague, which is today recognized as one of the greatest monuments of Gothic sculpture.

Thus Transylvania, as part of Hungary, became the center of Hungarian culture. During the most troubled times of Central European history, when the conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism set fire to the emotions, in Transylvania the Hungarian preacher and philosopher Ferenc Dávid (1535-1579) was able to found and establish the Unitarian Church, and persuade the Congress of Torda in 1568 to declare, for the first time in the world, the freedom of religion.

It is indeed not accidental that man's God-given right to choose his own religion and to worship freely and undisturbed was first recognized and legalized in Transylvania. This was a direct result of the Hungarian concept of freedom, as well as the respect toward the freedom of others, which permeated the entire Hungarian state-concept, and enabled the Hungarians to rule the Carpathian Basin successfully for a thousand years. This secured free development to every ethnic group which asked permission to settle within the Hungarian borders.

Even after 1711, when Hungarian political independence was completely lost to Habsburg oppression, Hungarian culture in Transylvania not only kept in step with the cultural evolution of the rest of the country, but in many instances it became the guiding force of spiritual and cultural resistance. In fields of sciences, art and literature, Transylvania became the torch-bearer to the rest of oppressed Hungary. The same phenomenon repeated itself after 1849, when the Liberty War was crushed by the combined forces of Austria and Russia, and the darkness of revengeful oppression fell upon Hungary for the second time.

It might be interesting to note that the first English-Tibetan dictionary was published in 1834 by a young Transylvanian Hungarian explorer, Sándor Kőrösi Csoma. The era between 1820 and 1867 is also regarded by many as the "golden age" of Hungarian national literature, brought forth by Habsburg oppression. Many of the great names in Hungarian literature were from Transylvania, such as Ferenc Kazinczy (1759-1831), Ferenc Kölcsey (1790-1838) Mihály Tompa (1817-1868) and others.


Hungary in 1910

In 1867 the "reconciliation" between Emperor Franz Joseph and the Hungarian nation opened the gates toward industrialization and economic upswing. Though economic progress was much slower reaching into Transylvania than in other parts of Hungary - due to distances, lack of roads, etc. - the revitalization of the Hungarian culture reached a new peak in Kolozsvár and the other Transylvanian cities. During the glorious years of the "millennium", Transylvania proudly celebrated its thousand-year-old cultural heritage within the framework of the thousand-year-old Hungarian national frontiers.

When in 1919 the Rumanian army occupied Transylvania, and the brutal persecution of Hungarian officials, clergymen, educators and other intellectuals began with unprecedented Balkanic ferocity, Hungarian stamina was put to test. In Kolozsvár the Romanian army killed the major of the city on Christmas Eve and massacred innocent civilians of Hungarian nationality without any consideration on children, women and elders. The civilized World was shocked by the cruel and barbarian methods of the Rumanian army.

Within a few weeks all geographical locations were renamed, from cities down to the most remote villages. Kolozsvár was changed overnight into Cluj, Nagyvárad into Oradea, Marosvásárhely into Tirgu Mures, Temesvár into Timisoara, etc. Many names were simply translated, such as Disznós into Porcu, Medvepatak into Ursu, Nagybánya into Baia Mare, Szentegyed into Sinte Jude, etc. Street markers were replaced and streets renamed. Those who were born and raised in one of the Transylvanian towns, and lived there all their lives, suddenly had to change their old established home address to a new-one, in a foreign language they did not even know how to pronounce.

City halls, court houses, district offices, post offices, railroad stations were filled with new officials, imported from across the mountains, who did not speak the language of the population. Huge signs appeared everywhere: VORBITI NUMAI RUMUNESTI ! Speak only Rumanian. Those citizens who were unable to obey these signs because did not speak the Romanian language, were refused service, abused, and sometimes even beaten by the new police.


Diktat of Trianon 1920 - Transylvania was torn from the Hungarian Motherland

The urban intellectuals of Transylvania suffered the most. Put out of their jobs, many of them were forced to leave the country. Others shifted into commerce or industry. Some of them became labourers, while many rallied around the only bulwarks left for Transylvanian culture: the churches, church-affiliated schools, and other cultural institutions, such as libraries, museums, civic societies, benevolent organizations, etc which were not yet dependent on the State.

Rigid censorship was instituted by the Rumanian government toward Hungarian publications of any kind. In spite of this, by 1926 Transylvania had more Hungarian monthly periodicals, weekly publication, and daily newspapers than ever before. It was the automatic reaction of Hungarian national consciousness taking refuge in culture against the brutal oppression of a foreign and inferior civilization.

Gy. Zathureczky writes in his book "Transylvania, Citadel of the West" (Danubian Press, 1967) page 46: "The Transylvania (Hungarian) Press, suffering under heavy censorship, lost its provincial character and rose to European level. The Transylvanian Literary Guild and the Transylvania Helikon gathered the writers and established a Hungarian Publishing Co-operative. A new and specifically Transylvanian literature was born. Struggling against poverty, and harassed by Romanian authorities, the Transylvanian Hungarian stage reached an unprecedented peak against all odds."

In spite of the brutal political and economical oppression of a Balkan force, Transylvania remained part of the Western Culture. Just as an Austrian journalist aptly observed in the "Wiener Tagblatt", July 27, 1934: "Travelling through Transylvania one cannot help noticing that while the policeman on the street corner speaks only Romanian, within the walls of old town houses there is a very lively Hungarian cultural life going on, discussing with foreign guests Western ideas, Western literature, Western art, sometimes in three or four languages in the same time - none of which happens to be the language of the policeman down on the corner ...". Further down he stated: "The very fact that in those highly cultured Transylvanian circles everyone knows the names of German, French, English and American writers, scientists, actors, painters, but no one seems to know anything that goes on in Bucharest, shows clearly that in spite of the so-called 'peace treaties' the cultural boundaries between East and West are still firmly drawn on the ridges of the Carpathians ..."

Even 20 years after the Rumanian take-over, Transylvania supported 38 periodicals in the Hungarian language, 5 Hungarian literary societies, and 12 Hungarian publishing houses. Twenty-seven Hungarian writers in Transylvania had one or more books published in foreign countries, while the Hungarian theatre of Kolozsvár was regarded by talent scouts all over the world as the springboard to fame for talented actors and actresses. Hungarian painters of Transylvania frequently toured Europe with their exhibits, and the Hungarian folk art of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Háromszék and Udvarhely reached the foreign markets with their embroidery and wood carvings.

In spite of the political oppression and the strong economical discrimination, the dominant culture in Transylvania remained the Western oriented Hungarian culture, followed by the German in the German districts. Those few Rumanian authors, poets and artists who were born Transylvanians, were absorbed by Bucharest and the "Regat" (Old Kingdom), and had no contact whatsoever with the representatives of either the Hungarian or the German cultural circles in Transylvania. The name of Octavian Goga, the excellent Romanian poet, who though born in Transylvania, became known only among Hungarians and Germans after he was selected by the king of Romania to be the prime-minister of the country.

In August 1940, when Northern Transylvania was returned to the Mother Country, it took only one day for such cities as Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Marosvásárhely to wipe off every trace of a Romanian occupation, and turn back into the thriving Hungarian cities they had been for hundreds of years.

However, after World War II. when the Russian army handed Transylvania over to the Romanian government as a compensation for Bessarabia, all this has changed drastically. Hungarian publishing establishments were shut down. Within the new Romanian framework one single state-owned publishing establishment was formed to "serve the Hungarian cultural needs", not in Transylvania, but in Bucharest. This establishment, named "Kriterion", was allowed to publish only government-approved material, mostly translations from Romanian and Russian, and only a few ideologically sterilized Hungarian authors in limited editions.

Even Hungarian language Bibles, donated by American Presbyterian Churches to the Transylvanian Calvinist Church were confiscated and turned into toilet paper.

Public monuments, statues, historic markers were systematically destroyed and replaced with new ones, reflecting the new Romanian-dictated atmosphere. Old tombstones were destroyed, ancient churches "remodelled" in such a way that they lost their Hungarian character. The entire history was re-written, and the newly created false "history" is systematically introduced to the new generations. Even those very few Hungarian-language schools which are still left to operate must teach this falsified history to their pupils, according to which Transylvania is the "original homeland" of the Rumanian people, and the Hungarians were the "intruders" who ruled the native Rumanians by terror.

According to the law, the presence of two Romanian children in any school suffice to have the language of instruction changed from Hungarian to Romanian. In schools where the language of instructions is Romanian, the children are forbidden to speak Hungarian among themselves, even during recess. Those children who disobey this rule are severely beaten by their teachers. Since the Romanian government has already brought more than 600,000 new Romanian settlers into Transylvania from Bessarabia, Bukovina and other parts of "old Romania" while in the same time deporting more than 300,000 Hungarians from their native land, it is clear that there is a well-planned cultural genocide going on, fully using the "unlimited possibilities" and brutalities of a totalitarian regime.

During the second Word War half a million of Hungarians and Hungarian speaking Jews were killed by Romanian Army and other paramilitary organizations.


Transylvanian Magyar Coat of Arms

In order to destroy every trace of the past, the Romanian government first nationalized, then systematically destroyed every old document preserved in Church archives, museums, libraries or private homes.

It is indeed fortunate that many of the ancient Transylvanian documents, dating back as far as the 11th century, were transferred to the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest, some before World War I, and others during World War II. Thus, in spite of all the Rumanian efforts to eradicate the past, the true history of Transylvania can still be proven by thousands of ancient documents and the traces of the once great Western-oriented culture of the Hungarians in Transylvania can still be found in libraries and museums, not in Hungary alone, but also in Austria, Germany, Italy, France, England, and the United States of America.

The Romanian culture is entirely different from that known as the "Transylvanian culture", which is in reality a regional diversity of the West-oriented Hungarian culture. The Rumanian culture is Balkan-oriented, and specifically Rumanian, based on the history of the Vlach migration from South across to Albania, and from there up to Wallachia and Moldavia. It was brought forth by Balkan influences, just as the Romanian language itself, which is composed, according to the Romanian linguist Cihac, "of 45.7% Slavic, 31.5% Latin, 8.4% Turkish, 7% Greek, 6% Hungarian and 0.6% Albanian words."

Even today, the Romanian culture as such, has no roots in Transylvania. It is being "imported" constantly and purposefully from Bucharest into the Transylvanian province in order to crowd out and replace the traditional Hungarian culture of this conquered and subjugated land.

Future of Transylvania and its capital Kolozsvár is to return to Central Europe and to Hungarian Culture where it belongs.

Transylvania was GIVEN to Romania in 1921, and again in 1947, without a plebiscite. This notorious Treaty is known as The Diktat of Trianon, Hungarians were forced to sign in Paris.

Ever since Transylvania was awarded to Romania, Hungarians, Germans and other ethnic minorities have suffered at the hands of Romanian Chauvinists. They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today.

Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.

I have always wondered if Bulgars have in some way related to the notorious huns/magyars? it is prety interesting if they do!

That's the biggest load of bull**** I have ever heard. The Dacians were in Transylavia, AND in Hungary before your Hun asses could come by. Even when they did come, they wrote down that they saw Roman sheperds. Face it, you're wrong, and you know you are.

...and who was the "Dominator" in Transsylvania for more than 800 years?
The great Roman-Dako-Peoples? Who made politik in Transsylvania for more than 800 years? The great Romanians? It´s inconsequential who were first in Transsylvania. Before the romans came to Transsylvania there were kelts and a lot of other peoples of different ethnicity. So the Romans or Dako-Romans were never the first in Transsylvania, too. In Transsylvania you can see hungarian and german culture and villages or towns in Transsylvania have a german or hungarian look.

But the dacians are not romanians. The dacian culture was destroyed before the hungarians came to Carpathian Basin.

Lol kids, the dacians are romanians ancestors ... just like the maghiar tribes are your ancestors. Do you have a mongolic look? If no then you are either daco-romanian or slav in origin, because these were the two main ethnic groups inhabiting Panonia and Transylvania in the dark ages.

As about who made history in Transylvania in midle ages ... thats easy: hungarians, germans and romanians.

As about the bull**** i saw in the first post. LMAO, best laugh i had on the internet in a long time.

"Early" Hungarians were Celts! Indo- European. The Hunnes thats really "Holland" Bataven-Friezen etc.
They have Hunne Graveyards. in Drenten, The Netherlands. Anglo's (before "Great Britten") went to Scandinavia.

TRANSYLVANIA BELONGS TO ROMANIA

...in your dreams!

It is the prevailing theory that the Magyars were in no way related to the Huns, Turks or Mongols. They were, in fact, a group of Finn-Ugrians that had separated and come from the other side of the Ural mountains.
Finno-Ugrian Theory
The most widely accepted theory of the Magyar's origin is the Finno-Ugrian concept. Advocates of this theory believe the linguistic and ethnic kinship between the Hungarians and the Finns, Esthonians, Ostyaks and Voguls provide evidence for the origin of the Magyars. This relation of the Magyars with the Finns places the ancient homeland of the Finno-Ugrians on both sides of the southern Ural Mountains. The advocates of this theory insist that Magyars came from this group in the Urals, and as the theory explains, it was about 2000 B.C. that the Finnish branch broke away to settle in the Baltic area. The Magyars remained on the West Siberian steppes with the other Ugrian peoples until 500 B.C. It was then that the Magyars crossed the Urals westward to settle in what is present day Soviet Bashkiria, north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus. The Magyars remained here for centuries with the various Ural-Altaic peoples such as the Huns, Turkic Bulgars, Alans and Onogurs. The Magyars soon adopted many cultural traits and customs of these people and it was from the region of Soviet Bashkiria that the Magyars started their migration westward toward the Carpathians.

The dac tribes moved from the Carpathian basin in the early 400s because the barbaric hordes attacked them, so emperor Traianus moved them out.
No comment...

GREETINGS IM A BULGARIAN PATRIOT BUT I SAY
"PATRIOTIZM ISNT INJUSTICE"
SO NOMATTER LOT FEELINGS U HAVE TRUTH IS EVERYTHINGI CAME HERE TO SAY THAT TRANSILVANIA IS REALLY A HUNGARIAN PLACE.WELL THERE S BEEN BIG ASIMILATION AND ETNIK CLEARING SO MAYBE NOT THE SAME LAND THE S BEEN STOLEN FROM HUNGARY IS STILL HUNGARIAN BUT HALF OF IT OR 2/3 IS STILL.ROMANIANS ARE BALKAN NATION, AND TRANSILVANIA,SUCH DISTRICTS,MAN THIS AINT BALKAN AT ALL.THE REAL ROMANIAN PEOLE HAVE BEEN ALWAYS AND NOW ARE IN VLAHIA,THE PLAINS, KARPATEES ADN MOLDAVIA, NOW THIS IS A ROMANIAN LAND

I got respect for hungarians. im albanian. They got a great society and i like to learn more about them anfter all the huns destroyed the romans.

Ah come on so long ago -we should all be ruled by AFRICA since thats where we all came from!

I have been to Sopron for a day from Austria, its poorer i think but i liked the calm rural atmosphere there....i would love to visit Buda pest and debrecen...

Transylvania is the home of the Slavs, Romanians, (Szekely People, ancient Magyar race living in Transylvania), before the migration of the 7 Magyar tribes that came to Europe...
Transylvania was always an independent state in the Hungarian Empire, like Croatia and Slovakia...
Regarding who owns what (Hungary or Romania), neither, they have there own culture...
Szekely Hungarians are totally different then Northern Hungarian Like myself. And I know that for a fact, (I have a friend who is one) the Original Romanians in that part of that region are different then the Romanians in the south.
Come on, Transylvania stamped their own coins, had there own government, symbol, flags, legends, Prince's... Their Royal families married into Polish, German, Hungarian, Slovak, Romanian, Russian etc, Royality. Last Hungarian Kings with Hungarian Blood was Arpad line, then French, Italian, German, etc...

I can cry too, Russia took my families land in the first world war.
What I'm looking forward to is the E.U. When all the borders are dropped, and all Europeans can enjoy wine festivals and football. In other words, live like us in North America, with ever race of people on the planet as one.


Attila Zsolt Farkas, from Canada

What sort of forum is this????


how the hell did I get here???

Hungarians were the first significant settlers but there were smaller groups of Slavs and Dacians in the area. Then over the coarse that the Hungarians ruled the area they allowed immigrants from Romania and Germany to settle. The Hungarians incurraged the area to be a melting pot for new immigrants and wanted to Magyarize them but allowed them to keep there language and culture if they choose. Now Romania is in controll of the area and we all hope they show much respect for all the nationalities that live in Transylania and make it a rich blend of people and culture. Oppresion is division,united is not divided. P.S. Here in Canada we are proud and we come from many tribes

hungary is **** you own nothing but stinky balaton lake and budapizda

The Huns were extremely violent. They would burn down whole villages and kill all the people. But the Ugrians made some kind of deal with the Huns, which were Chinese people. There may have been some bullying and subsequent mixing. The two tribes at the Huns lead tried to take Rome, Attila the Hun. Rome with the Germanic tribes drove them away. They left the Ugrians in Hungary and Transylvania. Some original inhabitants I expect may have remained. The mixing of Huns and Ugrians led to Szecklers. They were sent to Transylvania.

Democracy is a right, just thing. If Hungarians want to be Hungarian they should have citizenship and land. If 25% of Transylvanians are Hungarian they should have been given 25% of Transylvania with peoples movement as obligatory. Citizens come first.

Ethnic cleansing is the result of a lack of democracy. International action should be taken against Rumania.

Hungarians should be able to come back to live in Hungarian territory again.

What is Ardeal? It means nothing in Rumanian. Its a crude interpretation of Erdely. All your Erdely place names are rumanianized Hungarian names to distort history.Rumanians are Balkan immigrants in Transylvania.Tara Ungureasce,Land of the Hungarians the true name for Transylvania in the Rumanian language. The Rumanian occupation of Transylvania is about over, the EU awaits.Dumb ass Vlachs go back and stay in Regat the slum of Europe.

Rumania is a nation of bastards.You were originally a Slavic people who sent their bitches and whores(mothers and sisters) to France and Italy to bring back Latinized bastard children to populate your Moldavia and Wallachia.Romans and Dacians were the original inhabitants of Transylvania. But sadly you are descended from neither.Take your goats and go back to regat Vlach bastards.

hahaha

Does this forum have a moderator? Somebody should be moderating this forum.

I have posted this message in the Ro forum, but what the heck!

And Bren, I think we touched upon the subject of ethnic cleansing, didn't we. Let's not say things which we might regret later .


1. Hungary had to recognise current borders as a condition for being EU
2. Romanians are majority ethnic group in Transylvania, hence what you are proposing goes against principles of democracy!

Are you from Transylvania?
Look if local Hungarians (from Transylvania) came up and said: you Romanians are bastards you treat us badly, then I would say, OK, lets sit down and discuss the problem. I will then be willing to make the necessary concessions.

If however Hungarians from Budapest or Hungary come to me and say: Transylvania should be Hungarian, give it now, I would obviously object and defend what territory Romania has.

And anyway you wouldn't get Transylvania back without a huge price in terms of Hungarian lives, resources, not to mention huge economic and political reprocussions. So what price are you willing to pay for Transylvania anna? How many Hungarian lives are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of some land or national pride?

And I don't know why you have to prove that to be a 'loyal' Hungarian you have to go against me or Romania! I do not see Hungary or Hungarians as a neighbour, in fact I respect them very much and I see Hungary as one of Romania's best friend.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yeah and arabasperna, if you liked what dez said, then I'm very dissapointed. I thought you were not up for causing ethnic hatred, and I would have stood up for you.

I got carried away with my nationalistic fervor. There can never be a true reconciliation between Hungary and Rumania until justice is done with Transylvania and the Szekely people.Rumania and Hungary should be friends, they're neighbors. However if you have something for a very long time and it becomes a part of you,then somebody takes it, steals it from you with the help of others, and its your neighbor that did it, you would hate them.How can you forget something like that.Lets be friends now and forget the past, let bygones be bygones, no way.If the boarders in Transylvania would've been drawn up according to ethnic boundries after WW1.Hungary keeping northern Transylvania and Rumania taking southern Transylvania, there probably would be friendship between the two countries today and WW1 would be a bad fading memory.

Revision is the key to reconciliation.

All areas with should be returned to Hungary and Szeklers could have their own country in the Szekelyföld if they do not wish to unite with the other magyars.

Romanian control over Transylvania is ludacris! It is now as poor as it has ever been and yes, it is YOUR fault. Just look at our respective GNP:s etc.

You cling to the area because of your stupid imperialistic desires that cause nothing but misery for ALL transylvanian people.

What is the point of a big country when you have no idea of how to maintain it??

Dude, we have lost land too that was Romanian, which we have no chance of regaining! That is life! We just have to move on in what land we've got.

If the Hungarians are mistreated in Romania, I would be first to be concerned and condem the Romanian authorities don't worry! My point is that if people from Budapest come to me and say: you should give a piece of your country away, then obviously I'm not going be happy about it. However what is important is that the Hungarians in Romania get their human rights to have schools/ county laws in their own language.

Look, I do not want borders redrawn while you do! Who's being imperialistic there?

And think of this: if you drew the boundaries of Austria-Hungary along ethnic lines then maybe you could have kept more of Transylvania, but your imperialistic desires prevented you from doing so. You paid the price!

And anyway you guys are definately one sided. Don't forget that when Transylvania was under Hungarian rule Romanian was not considered as an ethnic minority and had no rights of schooling in their own language and no rights to practice their religion. I mean the Ottoman Turks had a better human rights record. Why would I want to return Transylvania to that?

Anyway, I won't be bitter by such inhumane treatment of Romanians by Hungarians in Transylvania. I am willing to move on, and I forive you guys- it's OK! Just let bygones be bygones. If you don't you'll never be happy.

You just don't like Romanians. You guys claim to be the victims of discrimination but you are promoting hatred yourselves. No intellegent person would be promoting hatred on the internet. By the way, Hungary had to recognize current borders in order to join the EU. They have also banned the film "Trianon" which is considered irredentist. I think that Hungary is a good neighbour to Romania and most Hungarians don't hate Romanians. Promoting racist propaganda is not going to anything to get Hungarians more rights in Romania.

Lup Salbatic - Canada

Ask my parents about the human rights they recieved by your tolerant Rumanian government.How many thousands of Hungarians had to Rumanianize their last names just to get an keep jobs so they could survive.The Szekely Magyars oppression by the Rumanians will be over soon,the 85 yr. occupation by Rumania will be but a footnote in history.The EU awaits a liberated autonomus Transylvania along with its Rumanian population.Plebiscites will show the True Hungarian population in Transylvania, 3 maybe 4 million, not the 1.4 million distorted official census.All falsifications by the oppressive Rumanian government will come to light. Then maybe Rumanians and Hungarians can become friends.

I'm not against Rumanians, my great grandmother was Rumanian, her ancestors immigrated to Erdely from Moldavia a few centuries ago.Hungarians are a very hospitable, tolerant people. What I am against is injustice and oppression!

Dez, By the way, I am Romanian, but I am a third generation Canadian. My grandfather immigrated from Chernivtsi, now in Ukraine. What you say about Hungarians being forced to change their names may be true, I have never heard of that. However, you are forgetting both sides of the story. Hungarians have in the past attempted to Magyarize Slovaks, Croats and Romanians. I am against oppression too but the only way that reconciliation can occur is if both sides admit that they have done wrong.

Slovakia.org

Hungarian Ethnic Cleansing (Magyarization)

ethnic cleansing: the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group from a society, as by genocide, forced migration, and/or forced assimilation.

Mutual relations between the present Hungarian minority and the Slovak majority have a sadly unique historical background. Slovakia was a part of the Greater Hungarian Kingdom which in turn was incorporated as an mostly equal partner into Austria-Hungary in the nineteenth century, and as such the Slovaks suffered from ethnic cleansing. Indeed, this abominable practice was so commonplace, as well as adopted as an official law, that it spawned its own name, Magyarization. Under the Hapsburg Empire and later under Austria-Hungary, the Magyars, or ethnic Hungarians, dominated the numerous nationalities around them, and especially in the years from the Ausgleich, which gave the Hungarians autonomy in Greater Hungary, of 1867 to the end of the first World War in 1918 engaged in this doctrine of cultural genocide. It is ironic that just after receiving political autonomy from the Hapsburg Empire under the 'compromise', or Ausgleich, the Hungarians quickly turned on their still disenfranchised neighbors in the region. Countless Croats, Rumanians, Serbs, Slovaks, Slovenes and Ukrainians were subjected to Magyarization, or forced assimilation. The Hungarians fell right into their new role, becoming even more cruel than their previous Teutonic adversaries who employed a similar practice of Germanization decades before. Yet, despite a harsh national oppression and attempts at a coercive Magyarization of all the ethnic minorities in the Hungarian Monarchy, the national consciousness of the Slovaks continued to develop.

It was in 1878 that active Magyarization of Greater Hungary reached its climax. Further, one must realize that Magyarization was not just about the forced use of the Hungarian language. The doctrine's supposed justifications have root in the then Hungarian notion that a native of the Kingdom of Hungary could not be a patriot unless he spoke, thought, felt and totally identified as a Magyar. Slovaks who remained true to their ancestry, and it must be remembered that the Slovaks were in the region long before the Hungarians tribes arrived, were considered deficient in patriotism. The official political view was that a compromise with the Slovaks was impossible; that there was but one expedient, to "ethnically cleanse" them, to wipe them out as far as possible by assimilation with the Magyars. Slovak schools and institutions were ordered to be closed, the charter of the Matica Slovenska was annulled, and its library and rich historical and artistic collections, as well as its funds, were confiscated. Inequalities of every kind before the law were devised for the undoing of the Slovaks heritage, language and culture and turning them into "proper" Hungarians.

The Hungarian authorities in their endeavor to suppress the Slovak nationality went even to the extent of taking away Slovak children to be brought up as Magyars, and forbade them to learn their language and their history in school and church. Over two million Slovaks, who were predominantly Catholic, clung to their language and Slavic customs, but the clergy were educated in their seminaries through the medium of the Magyar tongue and required in their parishes to conform to state imposed restrictions. Among the 750,000 Protestant Slovaks the Government went even further by taking control of their synods and bishops. Even Slovak family names were Magyarized, and any vocational advancement was only given through Hungarians channels.

All these ethnic cleansing policies on the part of the authorities tended to produce an active Slovak emigration abroad while stifling economic factors exacerbated the situation. A few immigrants came to America in 1864 and their success brought others. In the late seventies the Slovak exodus was well marked, and by 1882 it was sufficiently important to be investigated by the Hungarian Minister of the Interior and directions given to repress it. The American immigration figures indicated the first important Slovak influx in 1873 when 1300 immigrants came from Hungary, which rose to 4000 in 1880 and to nearly 15,000 in 1884.

Countless other Slovaks became so called 'Hungarians of Slovak descent', only barely cognizant of who their ancestors were. Whole villages became Magyarized, unable to communicate in their original language and forbidden to learn about their history. What's more disturbing is that this process bred a societal self-hatred, where anything Slovak was to be hidden or admonished. As with other similar national tragedies these "New Hungarians" became the most vociferous supporters of Magyarization and further perpetrated that which was brought upon them.

Unfortunately, assimilation of Slovaks and other minorities in Hungary proper continued until the reforms of the 1990s. This is evident with Slovaks having marginal representation in the political process in the current nation-state of Hungary - even though they were a sizeable minority at the end of the first world war. What is most telling however is the stark comparison between Slovak communities abroad. In relatively far away nations such as Croatia, Ukraine, Slovenia, and even Serbia, Slovak communities continue to thrive yet close by, in neighboring Hungary, these communities are all but non-existent. Surreptitiously and with slow attrition, Hungary has today completed the goals of Magyarization in Hungary, creating one of the most homogenized and "ethnically pure" states in modern Europe.

Currently, many Hungarians are either unaware or refuse to acknowledge this horrific and shameful part of their history, or, similar to Holocaust denial, they provide a bevy of apologias that purport to justify the ethnic cleansing policies of Magyarization, either by citing similar examples in other regions or by claiming such policies were executed under political necessity. It is time for the Hungarian people to clearly and loudly own up to the wrongs of the past, pay reparations, and create a national monument for this cultural genocide. Many modern disputes such as the Gabcikovo dam project, have their roots in the former Hungarian government's policy Magyarization which bred a psychology of ethnic superiority among Hungarians and condescension against anyone who wasn't a pure Hungarian. Minority baiting is still, unfortunately, part of the political landscape in this region and until these past wrongs are address it will continue to be so.

The failure of the Hungarian nation, and the Magyar people, to offer an public act of contrition, and the activities of current national extremists who glorify Magyarization, only exacerbates current conflicts. Only when the Hungarian people come face to face with the horrors of their past can they genuinely coexist with the numerous ethnicities they so cruelly tried to culturally exterminate.

http://www.slovakia.org/history-magyarization.htm

If the Turks had a better human rights record your Vlach ancestors should've migrated to Anatolia instead of Hungarian Transylvania.Then you would be claiming Istanbul and Ankara as your ancestral homeland.Its only a matter of time now, autonomy or revision. Justice for Erdely and the Szekely!

My parents are from Lugos,not Lugoj a crude Rumanianization, as are all the other Hungarian place names,to wipe out all Hungarian Identity in Erdely. I was born here in the United States.I'm well aware of the Slovaks mistreatment at the hands of Hungarians, all nationalities have their side of the story,atrocities commited against them and by them.Its interesting to note that officials of the governments of both Slovakia and Rumania meet regularly to discuss the opression and elimination of the Hungarian people in their repective countries.Trianon created this mess in central Europe, it artificially created and enlarged countries.Hopefully the EU can change things.

Dez,

You are nothing but a Hungarian neo-nazi with a fierce hatred towards other nationalities (face it). Your friend Erno is in the same boat.

OK, I'll tell you what we are willing to pay for the mistakes and the injustice that we have caused towards the Hungarians, if the Hungarians are willing to pay for the injustice and maltreatment of Romanians during their 1000 year colonisation of Transylvania. However I would just rather move on and forget about it! After all no Romanian alive today is responsible for what happened in WW1, and no Hungarian today is responsible for what happened during their colonisation of Transylvania.

Now to enter NATO you have to solve all territorial conflicts with neighbouring countries, and have no territorial aspirations on them. Same with EU. Hungary by entering EU and NATO have clearly sent a message saying 'I don't want any more territorial additions to Hungary'. For that, of course we say thank you very much as it is a nice neighbour.

We are willing to see where we (Romania) went wrong with Hungary, you (Dez) are not willing to do the same. All you want to do is take over Transylvania to be under Budapest's control regardless whether people in Transylvania or not. For that you are a filthy neo-nazi imperialist and people like you should probably have be taken to prison for enticement to ethnic hatred.

Dez and Erno, when you stop being neo-nazi filth and enticing huge and dangerous ethnic hatred in the Balkans (which leads to war and suffering to millions of people) maybe then we will talk about reconciliation. But I am ready to do my part and accept where Romania went wrong. The question is are you?

Co-incidentally this is Romania's Amnesty International Report for 2004:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/rom-summary-eng
It doesn't mention any Hungarians!

Vaisva
You don't have to call me names. I'm not an imperialist or nazi.
All I want is justice for the Szekely.Your right Hungary did agree to the boarders for the sake of peace,However the Szekely didn't. The time will come very soon when Rumania will have to make a decision, in order to become part of Europe, grant autonomy to Transylvania or have a plebiscite in Szekely land where they would unanimously vote to free themselves from 85 yrs. of Rumanian oppression and govern themselves in their historic Hungarian land.The Szekely may wish to stay independent and not rejoin Hungary, who knows. At least they won't be governed by Bucuresti.
If the truth be known Vaisva it is you who hate other nationalities especially Hungarians!

Dez, I am getting really tired.
What did I say against Hungary or Hungarians? I respect Hungary very much as a country and see it as a model in some respects for mine. I'm just against neo-nazi imperialist land-grabbing comments.

Also your posts are contradictory!

All I want is justice for the Szekely.Your right Hungary did agree to the boarders for the sake of peace,However the Szekely didn't.
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No: you didn't! Get your facts straight. Besides you belong to a 4-5% minority in a country, and that is according to a Hungarian (who is a very nice person not a neo-nazi like you).

And please drop the emotions because you're not making anyone cry:
Transylvania being Hungarian isn't justice!
Szekely being independent from Bucharest isn't justice!
Transylvania belonging to Romania isn't justice either!

There isn't any justice in who has land and who hasn't! I mean land wasn't handed down by god to Hungarians, Romanians, etc...

Now Dez if you are willing to be objective about the situation and in the meantime be respectful to the other party (i.e. Romanians) then I am willing to make a conversation with you. If your goal is to insult and humiliate Romanians as much as possible while looking to make Hungary look great (which it seems to be) then there will never be reconciliation!

I don't care what you say or what you think, but you know that if you want 'justice' (as you put it) for Szekely then you know that you have to speak respectfully and considerately to us, while being sympathetic to our sensibilities. Now what's it going to be Dez?

in order to become part of Europe, grant autonomy to Transylvania or have a plebiscite in Szekely land where they would unanimously vote to free themselves from 85 yrs.
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I am willing to give independance to Szekelyfold if:
UK grants Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland (Cornwall?) independance
France grants Brittany, Corsica, Pyrenee Atlantique independance
Spain grants Catalonia, Basque country, Galicia independence
Germany grants Sorben-Wenden independance
etc... etc...
If EU want to see Szekelyfold independent, then they really are a bunch of hypocrites :lol .


I think Hungarian politicians are in power in some Romanian counties at the moment, so in a way Hungarians are ruling parts of Transylvania as we speak! I don't mind this and I don't know why you're complaining! Maybe because it is not Hungarians from Budapest.

How do I disrespect Rumanians? By wanting the Szekely to govern their own historic land. Forget about Hungary for now.Why does Rumania want Szekelyfold? a foreign people and a foreign land. I'll tell you my friend, thats imperialism.Szekelyfold is 80 to 90% Hungarian, over 1 million Magyar live there,over 2 million more Magyar live throughout Erdely.Do I disrespect Rumanians because they falsify the census to erase Hungarian identity in Erdely. You know its true.1.4 million, get real. How many thousands of Magyar were forced to Rumanianize there last name so they could keep and get jobs to survive.Funar - Erase all magyar identity in Kolozsvar. Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

I've only met a few Rumanians here in the U.S. while playing soccer. They don't have there own team like other nationalities, there doesn't seem to be too many here.They seem like decent people, but when the subject of ethnic origin comes up,and they find out you have a Hungarian background, they seem cold and distant. I really believe most Rumanians hate Hungarians.

The UK did not steal Wales or Spain steal Catalonia or the Basque region from another country as Rumania stole Transylvania from Hungary through treachery as spoils of war.Don't give me Transylvania is the cradle of Rumanian civilization, BULL. Hungary and Transylvania existed over 1000yrs. before there was a Rumania. The Balkans are your true home. You're immigrants in Erdely. You claim the Szekely are colonists in Erdely. I didn't know Hungary was a colonial power and it had colonies.Rumania you have no choice, your occupation and oppression will soon be over in Erdely.

I didn't know Rumanians were so interested in what Hungarians had to say . They must be worried about something.

I'm getting tired we can argue about this till doomsday. I'm outta here

The UK did not steal Wales or Spain steal Catalonia or the Basque region from another country as Rumania stole Transylvania from Hungary through treachery as spoils of war.
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Are you sure about that? Territorial aquisitions in Western Europe were from treachery and spoils of war. Why don't you read history. Man, you're so naive!

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Don't give me Transylvania is the cradle of Rumanian civilization, BULL. Hungary and Transylvania existed over 1000yrs.
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Did I say anything about these subjects? I don't care what happened in the PAST! What I have always said is forget about it and move on! Not even WW1/ WW2.

Dez:
(1)It would be very hard to convince someone like you that you are Romanian, so how the f*** are Romanians going to have any success in convincing around 2million Hungarian that they are Romanian? I beleive the figure is more accurately 1.6- 1.7million!

(2)Hungarians have their own party in Romania (UDMR) which fights for Hungarian's interests. So if Hungarians want to form the ruling body in Szekelyfold, such as mayors, prefects, etc... they can. If they want to Magyarise places, they can. I don't have a problem with this! Which leads me to think that you don't give a s**t about the precious little Hungarian minority in Transylvania, you just want Budapest to control Szekelyfold! Admit it! You also want to control the rest of Transylvania despite having 80% Romanian population, and you hate Romanians with a passion, and would not think twice about repressing them and taking their freedoms away. For that you are a sick, neo-nazi ethnic minority oppresor, and I know that these things are acceptable in USA nowadays; they are not welcome in Europe.

(3) The reason why I care what Hungarians have to say is because I want to be good friends with them .

Hey Vaisva why do you keep calling me names?Its nothing personal,I'm just stating my points.First of all, from what countries did England and Spain steal those regions? secondly are you referring to the official or unofficial Rumanian FALSIFIED census.You know very well if The Rumanian government was able to, they'd erase all Hungarian identity in Erdely.Forget about Hungary, my parents are Szekely Magyar from Lugos, not Budapest. Szekelyfold should have its own government, free and independent from Bucuresti, as should all Magyars in Erdely.They should have a choice, stay independent, or rejoin Hungary, its their decision. Why is Bucuresti so adamant on contolling Erdely? Don't they have more problems in Wallachia and Moldavia? It is only a matter of time!

Hey Vaisva, Where are you from ? Rumania?Can't you see whats going on, are you blind? Funar and all those *******s, What are they doing!You know what they're doing. You say the Szekely are allowed to Magyarize places.Those places already have Magyar names, you've Rumanianized them all very crudley. What do they mean in Rumanian? nothing. In Hungarian they have a meaning.

Or stay with Romania too . have you thought of that one? Don't forget that 80% of people in Transylvania are Romanian, and a 20% minority cannot rule 80% majority. That is not democracy. Romanians in Transylvania don't want independance or autonomy on the whole: they would rather be under the self-rightoues control of Bucharest.
I have also spoken first hand to a Szekely person and she says that she does feel Romanian and gets insulted when goes to Budapest because she is a Transylvanian Hungarian, and they're looked down as primitive by the Budapestians. This is her opninion, because my mother says she's been thrice to Budapest and said they treated her well (she is 100% Romanian). The issue isn't black and white.

Also, are we stopping the Szekely from doing whatever job they want? NO
Are we trying to humuliate them and erase records of their existance? NO
Are we stopping from becomming mayors? NO
Are we stopping them from spreading 'Magyarness' in Transylvania? NO
Are we stopping them from becomming politicians in the Romanian government? NO

Your arguments are only centred on: 'Transylvania should be under Budapest's control.' You refuse any other outcome than that. The local Szekely population do control their own affairs, and have seats in the Romanian government. We aren't stopping them from doing anything!

Hey Vaisva you didn't call me a name this time! (Although you might after reading this post). You didn't answer my question, where are you from? You sound like a typically corrupt,racist Rumanian politician(like Funar). Are you living in a dream world or what? Man wake up! First of all the 2 counties that compromise the majority of Szekelyfold is 80 to 90% Magyar. They've already asked Bucuresti for autonomy, and their reply was that it is illegal to do so. But in the end Bucuresti will have no choice. Secondly your right, the rest of Transylvania is majority Rumanian, thats because during the 85 yr. occupation of Erdely by Rumania many hundreds of thousands of Hungarians were deported or murdered and Vlachs resettled from Moldavia and Wallachia.You're naive if you believe that falsified census. There are alot more Hungarians in Erdely then you think. Some of those Hungarians deported and murdered were relatives. so don't give me this righteous Bucuresti ****. Hungarians DON'T want Rumanians controlling them, understand! Read my other posts and learn something.

Dude I am not controling any Hungarians! They can do what they want. As I said they can be mayors of their own communities and magyarise a few things here and there. I never said I was against that. I don't know why you keep bugging me for.

And also I don't think you get the irony. Even if Transylvanians (Romanians or otherwise) seem to despise Bucharest, they don't want autonomy from it!

Don't be upset by the story I told you of what a Szekler told me. I mean she is probably a minority .

Just chill out dude!

You must be some dumb ass Vlach from Dragonesti, you don't know what the **** you're talking about. your posts don't make any sense.Backward and xenophobic (look it up)Typical Rumanian thinking. You and your Vlach comrades have no business in Erdely.

I'm going to have to come up with a 2 year old forum for you. Your not showing any facts, your just coming up with insults. Romania is no Kosovo. During the war in Kosovo President Clinton said that Romania should serve as a model of human rights for the Balkans. Dez, show me some facts that the Hungarian minority is still oppressed. They may have been during the time of Ceausescu but that's over now. Transylvania is home to both Hungarians and Romanians. They both have a right to live there- regardless of who was there first. By the way, I believe my friend Vaisva here is from the republic of Moldova, not Transylvia. Why would you call him xenophobic? He's for living peacefully with Hungarians, your the one who insults all Romanians. As for stealing land, you live in America, land that was stolen from native indians- America has the biggest genocide in history. I personally think that people claiming to own land is stupid in the first place, no person made the land.

Read the information on this web site. Read my posts.Are there no intelligent Rumanians? Stick with a vlach web page, if they have one. Enough said!

Dez,
I like the Hungarians, and if anyone comes and hurts them, I will personally step in and sort out whoever hurt them! Trust me on that dude.
Who's calling who names now Dez?

Hey Lup
I thought you were a little more intelligent than that other Vlach, I have my doubts now.You don't seem to know to much about Erdely, present or past.I still have relatives there, you never did. Funar and his thugs are just the tip of the iceberg. Read the news, read this and other Hungarian web pages, LEARN , then we might have an intelligent conversation. Or keep believing how wonderful and tolerant your "GLORIOUS RUMANIAN GOVERNMENT" is. LOL


Later

Yeah, sure there are some extremist politicians but you can't use them to stereotype all Romanian people. I won't deny that there have been instances of oppression of Hungarians in Romania. For example- the church property seized in the 40s, the 1990 Tirgu Mures riot in which three people were killed and the 1995 law which proposed to make the Romanian language obligatory for minorities- however no widespread ethnic cleansing ever took place- as far as I know. I agree that Romania should not try to cover up things it has done wrong if it wants to move on to reconciliation. My thoughts on this are that hating Romanians may actually result in the opposite things that Hungarians want to achieve. Hatred only leads to more hatred. Both sides should try to forget the past and build a new future.

Here is an article called "The Pros and Cons of Autonomy For The Hungarian Minority In Transylvania." It was written by two Germans so it is from an unbiased viewpoint.

http://www.jeroenvm.dds.nl/romhaut.htm#rominhun

This is the conclusion of the article:

Since 1989 an alarming radicalisation of minority politics has occurred in Romania focussing on Transylvania. It has been incited by extremists from both sides who provoked each other, eventually culminating in a tense situation. Romanian extremists blamed Hungarians (and Jews, Gypsies, etc.) for endangering the Romanian nation, while the Hungarians in the UDMR persisted in their wish to have autonomy and nothing less. It seems that the Hungarian stance has lead to nothing but the opposite of what they aimed to reach; instead of bilingual signs, education or minority laws the Romanian government has created new forms of centralisation (SALAT 1994, p.30).
Territorial autonomy can be a solution to ethnic problems, but only on two conditions: 1) the ethnic minority group must live compactly together, and 2) all parties involved must have agreed to the idea of autonomy. In Transylvania these two conditions are not fulfilled. Many Hungarians live outside the compact Szekler area and would not profit from special rights in the Hungarian Autonomous Region. Another problem would be the rights of the Romanians living in that area: their claim to use the Romanian language would be justifiable.
At this moment most Romanians oppose the idea of an Hungarian Autonomous Region. Some of their arguments might be doubtful, but this is of marginal importance. As long as large groups of Romanians oppose the idea, no matter their argument, it is in no-ones interest to force the matter, since it would undermine the whole idea of autonomous regions. It would lead to a further radicalization of opinions, in a situation where a better mutual understanding is needed.

Until the end of 1996, the so-called minority problem of Hungarians in Romania was more or less created by politicians and radical ethnic leaders. Both groups could refer to all kinds of injustice and discrimination in the past, committed by all groups in several decades, leading to feelings of superiority, revenge and so on. Instead of focussing on the past it would be better to face the future. Both parties will have to become more realistic and open-minded to find a solution to the dispute. Romanians must accept that they are living in a multi-ethnic state, like Hungarians have to learn to live with the Romanian majority.
In every ethnically mixed area the rights of minorities must be protected (thus including the rights of Romanians living in dominantly Hungarian areas). The right to use ones own language in schools and public life is one of the most important rights. The concept of local self government, as practised in several Central and Eastern European countries like Hungary, has proved to be a useful concept.

The change in government in November 1996 has resulted in better relations between Hungary and Romania, with positive effects on the relations between Romanians and Hungarians living in Romania. This might reduce tensions, most of all because ‘top down’ incitement will probably be less. This might create a better context for the peaceful living together of the several ethnic groups of Romania, which will reduce the claim for territorial autonomy on a regional scale. But some sort of decentralization of decision-making would be good for Romania, which could run parallel to some kind of self-government on a local scale. Such a model could be of great importance in regions or communities with a large percentage of a minority group.

Jeroen van Marle and Leo Paul
This article was written for publication in Beiträgen zur Regionalen Geographie, magazine of the Institut für Länderkunde in Leipzig, Germany.
The article was written in April/May 1997.

Dez,
You will expect nothing less that Hungarian rule over Transylvania and think that Romanians are inferior sheaperds which have no idea how to run a country and have no right whatsoever to have any say in Transylvania! How do you expect me to be open to that?
I will be ready for reconciliation (with you) if you won't twist any facts and keep ramming down my throat that Hungary should rule Transylvania or that Szekely should be independant! Also you will never accept the fact that Hungarians mistreated Romanians and the fact that they had to use pretty dodgy arguments to justify their rule in Transylvania. I will accept where Romanians went wrong if you're willing to accept where Hungarians went wrong.
If you're nice you might get a Hungarian Autonomous Region in Romania (it isn't anything new it has been done before). Otherwise the more you ask for the less you'll get.
You might argue that the relatives in Romania are not happy by the way the authority treats them. True, but the authorities treats everyone like s**t at the moment. It is nothing personal against the Hungarians. However things are slowly changing.

Interesting article by the Germans. But you know as well as I, the Rumaniaian government will never agree to any form of self government by the Szekely and other Hungarians in Erdely, unless they're forced to. (condition for EU acceptance). Your government does not believe Rumania is a multi-ethnic state. Their xenophobic mentality still believe the Szekely and Csango Magyar are Magyarized Rumanians. Until that mentality is reversed, and your governments policy of resettling Rumanians from Wallachia and Moldavia in predominant Magyar areas to make it look as though Rumanians are the majority everywhere is stopped, there will never be any reconciliation.

Later

I too think that the 'Szekely Autonomous Region' is only a matter of time. I also think that Bucharest will loosen its grip on ALL regions of Romania, not just the predominant Hungarian ones. It is just that Romania was a highly centralised state. Just give it time Dez.
I have never heard of people claiming that they where Magyarised Romanians; people can call themselves whatever they like.

Also I am quite offended that you compare me to Funar. I hate that guy too, and I haven't said anything like he said.

I never said people claimed they were Magyarized! I said your gov't claims that the Szekely are Magyarized Rumanians, one of many attempts to distort histoy and hide facts. Your Rumanian gov't can't stand the fact that the Hungarian culture was, and in many places still is the dominant culture in Transylvania, your Vlach culture is imported from the Balkans. Is that xenophobia or what! I never compared you to Funar! I said most politicians in Rumania are like Funar or worse.

Later

I wish to defend myself, but I am tired of reading so much. Even if only five percent of Transylvania were Hungarian than they should be recognised. The idea of the majority lording it over the minority is not democratic, even were they to win an election. The democratic policy is such that if a senator wins 5% of the vote he has a place and voice and right to vote in parliment. Furthermore parliment should recognise minorities who do not have a voice.

25% is alot and democraticly they should have their own state. If they want. But Hungary cannot claim Transylvania at all since it is an UE decision. Still, if Szecklers want to return to Hungarian citizenship and even lands, good for them, may they indeed.

Life in Transylvania was very hard. The pollution was dramaticly terrible under that backward industry.

I saw a BBC documentary on it, and Hungarians plight. Even persecution by Romanian police after the turn to democracy. The pollution was so bad in one town that the average IQ was reduced considerably. Life expectancy too.

I am part native American and sympathise with them. I do not like the idea of violent colonization. It would be a contradiction in myself were I to have to accept that. I know Hungarians went to America. I don't like the sound of Hungarian ethnic cleansing. It is a shame. Holland, Spain and England did so much harm to native peoples, perhaps Hungary would have done no better.

I know the Magyars have mistreated Rumanians and other nationalities in the past. Every country/nationality has its dark side.But I can't believe the bull**** they're teaching you over there. Man, you need to embrace your TRUE history.

Later

WHAT?

Dez,
I know that Transylvania means a lot to you Hungarians. I have been to the national museum in Budapest and it was mentioned a lot (it played a central part in the Hungarian nation). I don't doubt that.
But it also means a lot to the Romanians too as a lot of cultural roots of modern Romania came from there too. You cannot discount the importance of Transylvania to Romania either.

Bren:
Tell me are the Aboriginals getting their own country from Australia?
Also how are the Native Americans doing in the US? Why don't you give them a large piece of land so that they can form their own country and customs? Tell me Bren.

"How can you compare?" What was the name of the aboriginal or American indians country? Did they have cities? a written language? Were they an integral part of another country? Did their neighbor steal their country through treachery? I'm not making light of what happened to the indians, its terrible. But you can't compare the indians to Erdely!

Later

well ...you know, history is history anbd now transilvania is romanian ))))) that is more important , no?
if u are so great why you can't get back????
hahahahhahaha forza Trianon

The essence of the matter is the situation of the Transylvanian people.

Transylvania is more hungarian than it will ever be romanian, but it is beside the point... We can never compare mere land to human beings!

I am just asking you to recognize the fact that Transylvania is now the ****-hole of Europe, perhaps it is not a coincidence that it was the opposite up until Trianon.

Hungary lost our richest province in Erdely, but today our GNP is more than twice the one of romania... Lets divide it between us so that we hungarians may tend to ours, you'll tend to yours.

A quarter of the transylvanians are hungarians, but the szekelyföld and westernmost borderlands do not nearly comprise 25 % of the areal. Is that the holy democracy you speak of Vaisva??

Hi everybody,

I am half Hungarian half Romanian (my mom is Hungarian) and I live in Arad. I don't know why you people have to argue so much. I love Romania and Romanian people. I love living in Transylvania. Romanian people are very nice and friendly. I am a content person. I just don't understand why some outsiders keep on complaining about what's happening here. Everything is peaceful and both Hungarians and Romanians live in peace. Why do you people just try to instigate conflict? Don't you have better things to do?

i know what you mean, it's a shame...

i am half Turkish half English...i dunno about you mate but is there something about us 1/2 and 1/2's that is more accepting of other races!?

Aurelia:
I did NOT say anything against Hungary or Hungarians as a whole! Can you please read that I also said that I do not have a problem with Hungarians living in Transylvania that want to determine things for themselves.

To Erno:
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Transylvania is more hungarian than it will ever be romanian, but it is beside the point... We can never compare mere land to human beings!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
? Can'y you admit Transylvania is very important to both!

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I am just asking you to recognize the fact that Transylvania is now the ****-hole of Europe, perhaps it is not a coincidence that it was the opposite up until Trianon.
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Actually between WW1 and WW2 Romania was the 7th largest economy in the world whereas Hungary was a hole during that period. But so what? What is your point? Romania had a crappy regime which are still trying to hold on to power. However their days are numbered.

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Hungary lost our richest province in Erdely, but today our GNP is more than twice the one of romania... Lets divide it between us so that we hungarians may tend to ours, you'll tend to yours.
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Don't you want to share it?

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A quarter of the transylvanians are hungarians, but the szekelyföld and westernmost borderlands do not nearly comprise 25 % of the areal. Is that the holy democracy you speak of Vaisva??
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1. Hungarians are only a majority in two Romanian counties. True Szekelyfold only contains half the Hungarians in Transylvania, but the only half where Hungarians are a majority!
2. Why should 25% of people get 25% of land? For example Bucharest has 10% of Romanian population but only 1% of Romanian land.

I thought Bucuresti was a slum . Ankara is even worse. When Turkey enters the EU, Europe will truely have a ghetto. Stay in Anatolia Arab...... whatever your name is.

I haven't read this much b... s...t in a long time,Vaisva1 you are an antanganiser and the reason why people like Dez hate you, take my advise and be carefull how you speak to people who are close to you, never mind about Transylvania it's not yours to give.The people of Moldovia don't want to be a part of Rumania, so don't expect all of Transylania to want to stay the same as well they be better off on there own, or as a part of Hungary if they want. I personally am a Rusin (Ukrainian/Rumanian) who's ancestors were Magyarized buy choise and not force, and i live in Canada.But given the arguments on this issue i would fight with the Hungarians because they are just,and there will is strong.

I just found out that i'm really Ukrainian and not a rumanian, so forget everything i said before. I still feel rumanian but i'm not really, can you help...Confused

LOL. I don't know what your trying to do. What's with the immature behaviour on this forum? I know my family history. Just because I want to see peace between Hungarians and Romanians doesn't mean that I am not Romanian. Both Romanians and Hungarians have a right to Transylvania. But maybe since I live in Canada I don't understand the underlying nationalisms of the whole problem.

Reason, you really like this Dez guy? His been going around the Hungarian and Romanian forums making racist remarks about Romanians and Turks. I think comments like his should be banned from the internet.

I will take the time to answer your question cause it's simple, people like Dez and Vaivsa1 are both losser who need these channels to sort out there problems, so no i don't think they should be banned, but if i were to ban anyone it would be you because you say your family is from the Ukraine so Transylvania should not be an issue for you but it is, because you want to look out for your own Rumanian interest's there,so therefore your a racist in the closet.

When someone calls all Romanians dirty Shepherds I will take offense to it. I am not a racist. I think that Szekelyfold should be able to have autonomy, because the Szekelers a majority there- but not all of Transylvania. It doesn't make sense for a majority of Romanians to be governed by a minority of Hungarians.

Its " loser " Bro. I stick up for my Magyar brethren, When ignorant Vlachs or Turks insult them, they're insulting me. You obviously don't have kinship or knowledge of the Szekely or Erdely. Watch your mouth and stick to a Ukrainian forum.

When Turkish and Vlach scum invade a Hungarian forum making ethnic insults and racists remarks. I'll invade theirs.

Super Bowl is coming! Later Go Pats.

Your still a "loser" the reason why is because you choose to argue with Lup Salbatic and Vaisva1 who are deliberatly getting under your skin. What are you going to do about it?, write something nasty about them and there ancestors,wooo,they are laughing at you. My Great uncles,Aunts,and 2nd cousins have told me exactly the same things you have said about the situation in Transylvania and they live in and around Kolozsvar which is one of the worse places with the dick head Funar. What I choose to do is to support them with money, and that money goes on to support all Hungarians because some of it goes to cultural organizations. So if you really want to stand up for your brothers then put your money where "your mouth" is dumb ass american.

I am more Magyar than you'll ever be Rusin, and with respect to all my Hungarian brothers and sisters I will hold my tongue, even with those who claim to be Magyar. My parents and I have been helping our relatives in Lugos for years.Your money doesn't impress me. You only wish you can be in America! Like I said, stick to your Uki forums.

Later Bro.

Eh, my Rusin grandfathers have been taking your Magyars for my grandmothers for 3 generations. That makes me more Magyar and still Rusin aswell, i am proud of all my roots. You on the other hand you smell like an ignorant american pig, that trust me, we as Canadians never wanted to be like, thats why we kicked your ass when you tried to take us over in 1812. You also said you were part Romanian which your not proud of, so that makes you week. You better do soom more research on the Magyars to see that they are mixxed people who as seven original tribes settled in many areas and mixxed with many peoples so much so that it's been said a true Magyar is a way of life http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/timeless/chapter02.htm

How does that make you more Magyar?"Rusin", sounds more like a "mutt" to me. I didn't know smell carries over the net! I wasn't here in 1812 when you kicked our ass? ( what does that have to do with anything?) Your posts are foolish and make no sense. LOL. Read this and other web sites, gain a little knowledge.

Magyar American and proud of it!

Your Rusin grandfathers were probably invading Russian soldiers (animals)who raped helpless Magyar women . I'll hold nothing against your grandmothers for giving birth to Rusin bastards. Many were raped and murdered during WW11. God help them.

Boy listen to yourself, way to many issues for me to handle. Remember that if you really do care about your family in Erdely, then help them in whatever way you can. First help yourself then you can help others. Take care...

Easily aroused,easily pacified.... How true

Magyarhun and Dez,
Romanians are indeed Vlachs with an uncertain history, or shall we say without a history from 300AD to almost 1300AD. It's doubtful that they have anything to do with the Dacians. They most likely come from somewhere deep in the Balkans, south of the Danube. Their lowly status in Hungary and Transylvania was summed up for centuries in one word: Tolerati. The masterly peoples: the Magyars, the Szekels and the Austrians were Uniti and therefore legally enjoyed a social position much higher than the lowly Vlachs, who were kept out of major cities, could legally only wear peasant clothes, and the windows of their houses had to face away from the street.

It is somewhat ironic then that the greatest hungarian king, Mathias Corvinus was a Vlach on his father's side. For John Corvinus Hunyadi was of lowly Vlach extraction. So say contemorary historians, as summed by the greatest English historian of all time Edward Gibbon, in his celebrated Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, written in the 18th century. Take a look:

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume2/chap67.htm#Huniades

1. Hungary organized a referendum the last year to sustain the double citizenship for hungarians in Romania. It was failure, hungarians in hungary weren't interested.
2. Transylvania is the biggest romanian region , having a 20% Hungarian minority; so if Hungary wants to take it back Hungary will have a population of 18 Mill and a Romanian minority of 6 Millions.
3. A politics against minorities really existed in the communist era. Since 1990, Romania is a democracy, recognized by the EU and the US, having problems only with Rroma minority. There are no official complaints about Romanian in the field of Hungarian minority. Hungarians have the right of adminstration and justice in Hungarian, streets, cities, shops in Hungarian, schools, high-schools, universities in Hungarian.
4. If conditions in Romania were that bad or the Hungarian minority, they could have taken their bags and move to Hungary. It's not the case.
4(again). Since 1996 The Hungarian Party is constantly part of the Romanian government. Romania and Hungary share excellent diplomatic, economic, cultural ties. So if you live in the US, the reality might seem diferent to you.
5. If some Hungarians want back their lost territories they have to complain also to Croatia, Austria, Slovakia and the Cezch Republic, and Serbia. I don't think these countries would agree.
6. Yes, Romania is poor; but Hungary is poor compared to Greece. We cannot compare countries only in their poverty, otherwise one call be described as superficial.
7. If, dear American-born Hungarian, you like offending other countries, this is your problem, but it certainly doesn't mean that you aren't just an extremist. Being born in Europe, US or UK isn't an absolute prove of democracy and tolerance.

The romanian viceprimeminister Marko Bela is a hungarian poet, lawyer and he coordinates in the government education, culture and European affairs. In fact Romanian government has 4 hungarian ministers (16 in total); so there is an executive representation of 20% percent for a 7% minority. Come on, be serious, where is the cleansing?

Romanians do not move from Moldova or Wallachia to Transylvania; that's a terrible lie. Who would leave home in the 21th century for the sake of ethnic cleansing???? Be serious! That's the most stupid thing I ever heard.

Romanians never claimed Szekely are Magyarized Romanians; that's a lie; Sezkely constitute majority in 2 counties (Hargita and Covasna); Czangas are considered Magyarized Romanians, they live in a small community in Moldova.

And really, I'm sick of America's telling the world how democratic is. They understand everything, they have the right to interfere everywhere, they have solutions for every conflict. A brain-washed population and a sick governement offering lessons of democracy everywhere. Before speaking a country, a minority come and stay there for a while and see what's going on. If Americans use Internet to inform themselves you can easily explain their politics.

USA should watch the trash in its own courtyard. Come in the EU to see what real democracy, freedom of speech are.

We could start by watching fahrenheit.

Cities in Romania:
Brasso (hu) - Kronstadt (ge) - Brasov (ro)
Siebenburgen (ge) - Erdely (hu) - Transilvania (ro)
Sibiu (ro) - Hermanstadt (ge)- Nagyszeben (hu)
Timisoara (ro) - Temesvar (hu) - Temeschwar (ge)
Lugoj (ro) - Lugosz (hu) - Lugosch (ge)
Cluj-Napoca (ro) - Koloszvar (hu) - Klausenburg (ge)
Bucuresti (ro) - Bucarest (fr) - Bucharest (eng)
And so on. The point is: every minority can call cities, mountains in their own way. Romanians called these cities in their own tongue. Like French say Cologne instead of Koln, or Londres instead of London. This is not ethnic cleansing.

From 1920 to the present, the Rumanian gov'nt has systematicaly tried to erase or minimize the Magyar culture in Erdely. Providing false documentation ,such as census figures, razing Hungarian villages,resettlement to other parts of Rumania, deportations and even murder. My parents and grandparents lived through this, I know what I'm talking about. In 1920 the population of Erdely was roughly 50/50, where did all the Rumanians come from and where did all the Hungarians go? I hold no animosity towards Rumanians in general, my great grandmother was Rumanian. Your gov't and its mentality is what I despise. In Jan. The Szekely asked for autonomy, the Rumanian gov't said it was illegal to do so. Why? Whats taking place in your gov't. now is superficial to gain EU entry. Yes, I'm Magyar American and I still have relatives there, I know whats happening. The Trianon diktat has already broken up 2 countries, if things are'nt changed the 3rd is on the way.

EU officialy opposed the idea of ethnic autonomy in Romania. Probaly in the future the 2 counties will gain an autonomy status. Question: how come the US do not grant ethnic/administrative/financial autonomy to spanish-speaking minorities?

When you speak about murders made by Romanian authorities you must prove what you say otherwise...

Other facts
Census in Hungary
Races. - One of the prominent features of Hungary being the great complexity of the races residing in it, the census returns of 1880, 1890 and 1900, exhibiting the numerical strength of the different nationalities, are of great interest. Classifying the population according to the mother-tongue of each individual, there were, in the civil population of Hungary proper, including Fiume.

Data: 1880 Hungarians 46,58%
Germans 13,61%
Slovaks 13,49%
Romanians 17,48%
1890 - 1900 - data insignificantly changed - the data come from the period when Transylvania was under hungarian control (before 1918), so they are not biased by Romanians.

Big Hungary was back then a huge state (formed of: today's Hungary, parts of Austria, Slovakia entirely, Czeck Republic entirely, parts of Serbia and Transylvania entirely). So on a huge territory like that, Romanians were 20%, concentrated in Transylvania. Imagine what was the ratio in Transylvania back then (probably Romania around 75% - Hungarians 20% and Germans 5%).

Here is the link, where you can verify:
http://historicaltextarchive.com/books.php?op=viewbook&bookid=2&cid=30

Do you know how many bilingual Spanish/English schools there are in the U S ? especially in the Southwest.. thousands. The U S does support Hispanic immigrants, its called WELFARE. Why are you bringing up the U S? Erdely is the topic. My great uncle's death certificate..cause of death.. "Beaten to death by police", thats only my personal account there is much more.Research your covered up history. I presume you live in Rumania, I can't believe you can't see whats happened and whats still going on, are you "BRAINWASHED". Rumania's "greediness" claiming then stealing all of Erdely has caused this mess. Show me where E U is against autonomy, or......

I asked you about real (territorial) autonomy, not schools. Living conditions in Romania are lower compared to Hungary; there are no financial differences between Romanians and Hungarians. Little by little the economy grows, for everyone (Romanian, Hungarian, Rromany), so be patient.

I do live in Bucharest. My grandfather died in a communist prison in Szeged;he was a member in a party who opposed the communists. The only thing we've got from him is a shirt. A neighour kept it and brought it to us when he was released of prison. We don't even know where is burried. There were communist times. If you didn't live in communism, you do not know what this meant. Any kind of minority was detroyed (religious, ethnic, parties, rich, intellectuals). They didn't erase Hungarians because both Hungary and Romania were ruled by communist parties, and we were both under Moscow' influence.

I am not brainwashed; sincerelly I understand the pain of hungarians, but this is the history. Romania lost Basarabia, and there is nothing to be done. We can only help our brothers there. This thing should be made by Hungary too. I live in a very crowded neighboorhood in Bucharest, and many young hungarian families moved here because of the wages (around 500E). So sometimes at the grocery's we can hear speaking Hungarian. It doesn't bother me at all. I would say the drama of any minority is its isolation from the main cultural body. We see that happening in the Republic of Moldova - they use a Romanian language used in the 30's. Did you know for example that a Hungarian born in Transylvania is callled Romanian in Budapest? the language was trapped inside Romanian. I can tell you that because I lived in France for an year, and I had 2 Hungarians as neighbours and friends. They were from Sopron, they did travel once in Erdely but they found the population very interesting, because of its oriental features. There are no massive outflows of Hungarians from Romania, the population remained here and endures the same conditions as the majority. Moreover Hungarians from Hungary come to make investments in Romania; noone says no, Romania welcomes anyone who invest in here. and in 2 years we well join Hungary in the EU. Borders will disappear, in 5-8 years we will have a commun currency (EUR), so there is a common future, without history, without old bleedings.

There are Romanians offended by the facts that when going in Marosvarhasely or Covaszna, they find shops when noone speaks Romanian. So what? These guys want to sell their stuff, the others want to buy it, so in the end they make it up. If we only see the bad parts, ofcourse we will never find peace.

There is another dispute - there are Universities where students learn both in Romanian and Hungarian. Hungarians want a University only for Hungarians - this was rejected; Romanian proposed a mixed German-Romanian-Hungarian University with a humanist profile, Hungarians refused it. But noone cried in the end when they've got a way to build a private Hungarian University, where no Romanian can go. So it's a cat-mouse play, but you can not blame authorities for murders, deportations or nazi things like that.

FACT... 1920 about 2.7 mil. Rumanians about 2.0 mil. Magyar in Erdely. Today 6.o mil. Rumanians 1.7 million probably more Magyar. That my friend is called resettlement. Forget about who was here first. We can argue til doomsday, whats done is done. The simple fact is there are 2 mil. or more Magyar in Erdely who do not want to be governed by Bucuresti in there historic land. Are you going to give me a typical Rumanian response" pack your bags and leave".

I'm sorry to tell you but human/ethnic rights were nothing but an illusion at the beginning of the past century. And communism didnt change the rules. I can only speak about things happened from 1989 till today.

And you can search for a Romanian census to see hungarian population in Ardeal is constantly around 1,7 Mill from 1990 till today.

For the moment there are 8 regions in Romania, based on economic and historical grounds. These regions were settled by the EU in 1999 at the beginning of the accesion. In Jan the Hungarian Party, who forms the governemnt asked for a redrawing of these regions on new economic data. However the speaker of the European Commision denied the proposal, saying no changes are allwed until Romania will become member o the EU.

So you must wait.

This is the last message I wrote, because your only purpose is to see Transylvania (and probably other regions too) back to Hungary. Since I can guarantee nothing like this is going to happen, my messages end here( I hope you''l be pleased). Europe and the Balkans are not an american playground; the time of changing borders is gone.

PS: and no, Hungarians won't leave Romania because they are born here, they live here, their relatives are here, their entire life was spent in this country. Whether you like it or not they are citizens of the Romanian state. and they make no prove of not being.

Well said Dankat23, here in Canada we have alot of different types of people the most largest minority the French like the Hungarians in Transylvania have it pretty good. Our American neighbours are good guys aswell they just get a LITTLE carried away. My American-Hungarian brother get's hotheaded over some issue's sometimes he'll get over it. My grandfather's(Ruthenians) lived in Hungary propper for 3 generations, and always had good things to say about the Hungarian people, I know my grandmother's were Hungarian. Before that though they came from the Carpathian's where the Lemko's lived(gone now mostly) who are both Vlach and Eastern Slav(Slovak,Polish,Ukrainian). I say it feels real good knowing I was designed by some of the greatest cultures of the world, To be continued...

So Dankat23 ...You're proposing that the Hispanics in the U. S. do the same thing as the Rumanians did in Erdely. Keep immigrating to a land until you have a large enough population , Then detach it (steal it) from its mother country , and claim it as your own ?

Why do you say I'm interfering? Because I live in the U S ? Its not my playground,I have roots there. I can trace my ancestry back hundreds of years. Can you do the same?

By the way the Czech Republic was never part of what you call "Big Hungary". Prague was never a Hungarian city. Croatia had its own parliament, they chose to be part of Hungary. Read your history books. You must be "BRAINWASHED" if you think the Hungarians and others in Erdely wished to become part of an artificially enlarged Rumania . A very grave and criminal injustice was done. What goes around comes around. Soon it will be Rumania's turn, just like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

Nothing to say aye

Reason/ Rusin what did I say? All I said was that Hungarians can do what they want! And if you want to be like that then there are large parts of Ukraine which aren't yours to give either: like Donbass/ Crimean peninsula.
However I take the view that it is your country and you can do what you like to it! Just make sure you treat the Romanians in Chernisvsty Oblast well yeah! Otherwise we'll take care of our country and you'll take care of yours.

Dez, what we are saying is that the age of border changing is over. We have to find a way of peacefully living together, even ruling together is need be. It would be difficult with people like you because you keep insulting all the time. But I am confident that progress will be made with people on the ground.

look at this (hungarian) map of transilvanian population at the begining of the XX th century (ethnic groups shown in percentages, cyan line shows present border):

except for szekelyfold, and szatmar, there were more romanians than hungarians (in bihar most of hungs lived in the western part, so in eastern bihar, wich joined romania, there were more romanians)
north transilvania hasn't hungarian majority ! so the teritories with high hungarian conecentration we took were only maros,haromszek and hargita, not cluj, maramures, nasaud or other northern transsilv regions

I will speak respectfully , Rumanians have no right to govern Hungarians just as Hungarians have no right to govern Rumanians. Even When Rumania Enters EU Bucuresti will still control Szekelyfold and over 2 mil. Hungarians. They should and will have a choice.

Dez

Dez,
There are Hungarian ministers at the moment and there are many ethnic Hungarians city mayors which do govern themselves and Romanians too. If they want to embark on a career of politics (and self-govern themselves) they can. There's no problem with that.
No-one has a problem with it.

Then WHY When Szekelyfold asks for autonomy Bucuresti says its ILLEGAL? ( Look at january news from Rumania)

Vaisva1 you said "If you're nice you might get a Hungarian Autonomous Region in Romania (it isn't anything new it has been done before). Otherwise the more you ask for the less you'll get.
Who am I talking to anyways kids or what. Everybody seems to forget what they say, must be the tv generation with short attention spans. Dez doesn't remember that he's Rumanian. I mean it go back and read your internet history you guys sound like queer cup cakes. Dez has been waiting soo long to talk to you that he's even nice for the first sentence "Hello Vaisval I'll be nice" then he jumps in and starts raping you. Never mind. The Romanians will never give an Autonomous region to the Hungarians, why, the French 8 million here in Canada have wanted it and never got it and now they doen't even ask. It's up to there government and nobody else has a say, unless you live in the spoken region. Like I said before Transylvania has a diverse culture, it is not just for the Hungarians or the Romanians, or the Germans, or the Romany, or the Rusins, or the Armenians, or anybody else. It is for all of them and it doesn't matter who was there first all that matters is who is there now and how many. My grandparents left and came to Canada to find many different cultures living peacefully together, with more variety in life makes life much more interesting.

You can't compare the old world with the new world. There will always be nationalistic feelings in Europe. In North America everybody is descended from imigrants. In Europe and Transylvania in particular which was part of Hungary for over 1100 yrs. then torn away because Vlachs became the majority through migration. Lets maintain the status quo now, lets be friends, all is forgotten. What about the 2 million + Magyar who don't want to be part of Rumania. Ah but you are Russian/Vlach/Magyar origin you wouldn't understand. Where is your Magyar pride.

Trianon created this mess. 3 artificial countries, 2 down 1 to go. Autonomy for the Magyars in Southern Slovakia, Northern Voivodina and Szekelyfold.

As you said Magyar is a state of mind. Even though I have some Rumanian blood in my veins I'm 100% Magyar, I wish my brethren to be free of Rumanian rule in there historic homeland

Suposing that when magyar tribes came to Pannonia they weren't any vachs but only some slavs... did the magyar give the slavs local autonomy.. was there an slavic autonomous region? neither! so why are u complaining you haven't territorial autonomy? in the Xth century you stole the land of pre-hungarian population,in 1918 we stole yours. we are only a thief that robbed another thief...
and this supposing that at the end of the Ist millenium there weren't any vlachs; ignoring some armenian geographers, byzantin emperors and an old turkish chronicle who said they were

In the middle of the 1st century BC, the kingdom of Burebista was bordered by: the river Morava and the middle course of the Danube (west), the Balkan Mountains (south), the Black Sea, the river Bug (east), the Northern Carpathians (north).
A Greek inscription calls Burebista "the first and the greatest of the kings of Thracia".
So Transilvania(which is a Latin name)was always a Romanian(Dacian)Province.
Dacia is the real name of Romania!


Dacodava from Bacau County

Hey Buta Roman Dacodava, can't you get it through your thick Vlach skull you're not descended from burebista!

If someone try to do something in Transilvania about autonomy I will take my gun and go in there to protect my Romanian brothers!!!

Dacia is immortal!!!
I am one of the thousands of proves of Immortal Dacia!!!

Dacodava from Bacau County

Go talk to some smarter Vlachs

Just some facts keep in mind that this is history as well http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/transy/transy04.htm

Since you offer a hungarian source, romanians can also offer a romanian source, who says the contrary.

So, please use an independent site.

Independent sources say the same thing, so offer one brainwashed Vlach.

if you could tell me an independet source that agrees 100% with you point of view, tomorrow i'll paint my house in red/white/green, and i'll change my door ring with the hungarian anthem...
(and pls don't post links to that ****ty xenophobic "Corvinus" library)

i don't consider myself descendent of boerebista... but to dekeneu maybe

Don't be afraid of the truth Budos Roman

i'm not afraid of the truth , but if u can't show me an independent source, i supose you're not telling the truth, so maybe you're afraid of it

Lets see the facts of these days:Romanians 20 000 000 and
hungarians 1 400 000.
That is for real!

Dacodava from Bacau County

Look on the net , Vlach , there are many unbiased sources, or leave Romania and read real history books!

Oh yes, but don't believe anything if the authors last name ends in ESCU.

Peace

tomorrow i'll begin writing a book about this.. and my name doesn't contains any escu.. that means i can believe me )

Did u hear about Huszti Andras? it was a hungarian historian who wrote in 1791 in Wien a book named something like "old and new Dacia", and in this book he said that romanians are decendent of "getae" and "old roman colonists", and their language is very close to old roman, so, says he, the vlachs are in transilvania the descendents of the two populations. Benko Iozsef says in "Transilvania sive magnus Transilvaniae principatus" (Wien 1778) that a part of the romans left dacia, when it was abandoned, but a lot of romans and dacian indigens stayed. others who sustain the daco-roman continuity are the transilvanian saxons L. Toppeltinus and J. Troster, the later saying in a book "Dacia..." that "romanians are the most noble and old inhabitants of this country"(Transilvania), Michael Lebrecht, emperor Joseph II and the englishman E. Gibbon
And do u know the case about Szamoskozy Istvan who said in 1593 that romanians are descendents of roman colonist, but after Michael the Brave invaded transilvania, he changed his statement, saying that Gallienus moved all romans south of danube. So its Makkai Laszlo who in 1946 writes that gesta hungarorum comes from a previous chronic, written at the end of the xi century, later he says that the gesta are only fairy-tales.
sorry for my bad english

Europe knows the situation in Transylvania, it knows what must be done. Keep believing your Rumanian fairytales. One morning you'll wake up and discover it was all a lie.

Peace my Rumanian Friend

transilvania rejoins hungary only in magyar erotic dreams... no offical cosiders this possiblity, only some xenophobic hungarian netsurfers and some magyar eunucs historians who live in the past...
there was an autonomous magyar region because a big part of the first commies in romania were magyars... no way it'll happen again under romanian rulers (or a democratic non-romanian one)

In the 19th century Baron Wesselenyi has created his unique theory of political nation. In his interpretation only one political nation exists in Hungary. This political nation is indivisible and solid.
As the Russian Empire or the United States, the Kingdom of Hungary was a huge melting pot of nations. Unfortunately, our nations could not make the best of numerous advantages of the regional co-operation.
Look at the figures of our regional economy! Hungary is weak. Slovakia and Croatia sre weak. Rumania, Serbia and Bosna-Hercegovina are weak. In 1914 Austria-Hungary had got an excellent economy-system and a strong army. Our GNP/capita was on the level of Italy or Spain, and the rate of growth was much better. The nationalists and the National Councils of the Monarchy had succeeded to destroy that great institution. Fools!
Without Middle-eastern co-operation we have not got any chance. There are already signs of it. Group OTP owns banks in Rumania (RoBanka), Croatia (Nova Banka) and Slovakia (OTP Banka), and MOL (Hungarian Petrol Trust) have many market positions in the countries at all. A lot of enterpreneurs and companies have established different subsidiaries in the whole region. In Hungarian: "Money speaks, dog barks". Our weapons will be capital and human resources not rifles and bombers. Our victory will be their victory. Hungarians, Croatians, Rumanians, Germans and Slovaks will share the profits they produced. We will be great together! That will be the Second Kingdom of Hungary!
Some notes of our common history: my girlfriend speaks Slovakian, her father is Polish, her mother speaks Hungarian. Her grandfather was born in Serbia and has fallen in love with a Jewish girl in Budapest. THIS IS HUNGARY!

transilvania rejoins hungary only in magyar erotic dreams... no offical cosiders this possiblity, only some xenophobic hungarian netsurfers and some magyar eunucs historians who live in the past...
there was an autonomous magyar region because a big part of the first commies in romania were magyars... no way it'll happen again under romanian rulers (or a democratic non-romanian one)

You won't have a choice Vlach, first cultural then territorial autonomy. Its already started, so sit back and relax, now you can start having your own wet dreams.

Dear hungarian fellows,
apart from swearing (budos = dirty or something like that and etc etc. ) the other romanian members or members sharing the romanians' opinion of the forum you haven't prooved anything, but stated your opinions in a xenophobic and shovinistic manner. If you don't want to live with the Romanians why don't you move to Hungary - you said that hungarians don't want to be ruled by romanians - you'll get to be ruled by ones of yours. I have a good hungarian friend living in Oradea (Grosswardein) and you know what he told me: hungarians in hungary hate hungarians in Rumania very much because they are not a pure race (?!?) - [why? are they mingled with romanians - that reminds me of someone with a moustache killing jews (oops) or are they not worth the "title" of hungarians ]and he would never move to Hungary, and also because his best friends are romanians (yours budos ?!?) If you want to become one part of Europe than you'll have to grow up and realize that terms like hungarian, romanian, tschecher or slovwaker won't exist any more, just pure european.


Best regards,

Klaus Kolowratnik.

Read this site , if you know how to . Why would we leave our land . NAGYVARAD will always be Magyar , you can tell that to your Hungarian friend . LOL . We don't want comments by ass kissing Germans . Stay in your own forum Buta ( look it up ) Kraut .

Anything you did was rob the entire Europe, from the moment you came from your Asia. You hated and still hate everyone - other civilisations. nations, or ethnic minorities-do they still exist in Hungaria or did they diasappear. I am a ROMANIAN and have relatives that remained in Hungary after the WWI after the redrawal of the borders and guess what - they don't know romanian language. Why ? Were they magyarized or are they afraid to speak romanian, since they are 100 % romanians. You hate the slovaks for the land they have, you hate serbians , you hate austrians - who DON'T you hate. Maybe your mongolian brethren. I've had enough of you. I'm sick of you rights ... you have only rights here in Romania: universities, schools, administration in your mother tongue, when you go to the market you hear hungarian (WTF?) and you still say that you have no rights? etc. What do you want more? I know you would like to kill us all but you won't have that satisfaction ... again. Your hate is beyond borders ... why don't you speak about the atrocities you commited ... killing entire vilages of romanians ... cutting open pregnant romanian women ... and hanging people just for being romanians. And you say that we hate you ... no we don't HATE you .. that much. I see no reason !!!!
And I think that other people such as Serbians (Vojvodina) or from Slovakia would agree with me. I have never seen such a "NATION DOMINATED by HATRED as THE HUNGARIAN ONE".

And no wonder that everybody despises hungarians in österreich

Best regards,

Klaus Kolowratnik.

And by the way don't forget that the Austro-hungarian empire war AUSTRO-hungarian and not Aungaro-Austrian. The austrians have built the empire and not you. Without us you wouldn't have existed so cut the craps with The Big Hungary, because it ain't so big. And by the way as I recall Nagyvarad is still in Romania according to the Maps LOLs

And by the way don't forget that the Austro-hungarian empire was AUSTRO-hungarian and not Aungaro-Austrian. The austrians have built the empire and not you. Without us you wouldn't have existed so cut the craps with The Big Hungary, because it ain't so big. And by the way as I recall Nagyvarad is still in Romania according to the Maps LOLs

And by the way don't forget that the Austro-hungarian empire was AUSTRO-hungarian and not Aungaro-Austrian. The austrians have built the empire and not you. Without us you wouldn't have existed so cut the craps with The Big Hungary, because it ain't so big. And by the way as I recall Nagyvarad is still in Romania according to the Maps LOLs

Hey anti-nazi you sound like a racist . Yes we do want more , we want our land back . If you don't like to hear Magyar in the market place , get out and go back to Wallachia , where you came from . Jealousy rears its ugly head again , and you are probably a very ugly Vlach .

And Herr Klaus , first you call us dear fellows , then you despise us . Can't you make up your mind you two - face nazi . We don't want your ignorant opinions , go back to the land of Hitler you dumb swaben .

I haven't called you dumb but anyways as I said you would have been nothing without us. You Great Hungary was in fact GREAT AUSTRIA. And I'm not schwab, I'm austrian but I see that you can't stand schwabs also, besides romanians.

I am a very BIG vlach living in Oradea. Very interested in meeting you, and trying to convince you that we were here first, reasonably of ... course

Anti-Nazi:
It doesn't matter who was anywhere first, it just matters who is there NOW. Take it from me.

So you live in Nagyvarad " BIG " Vlach , a beautiful Hungarian city. As are all cities in Erdely that Hungarians built . But I suppose you claim you built all of them to . LOL You might be big , but I doubt it , but you obviously have a puny mind . I live in Temesvar , which is not to far . Maybe one day we'll meet and you can convince me . LOL !

Just out of curiosity " BIG " Vlach are you " BIG " as in fat or mouth . LOL . And Herr Klaus , a mighty empire that lasted 60 yrs. You needed Russia's help in 1848 . You were nothing and you are nothing except nazi wannabes .

Listen here mongolian: I'm BIG enough to through you over the borders in Hungary .

Threats over the net . You must be very puny . Like I said before , come to Temesvar and I'll teach you a good lesson . And a word of advice , don't go to Szekelyfold anymore .

ungaro, you know that we, "vlachs", are poor "cigany"... we don't have money for transport to timisoara... why don't you come to us if you're so dangerous

Where do you live.... Bacau county

Anonymous let Hungaro remain a primate if he wants that. And by the way: the greatest population of Gypsies is in Hungary: CIA Source:

Hungary -- http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/hu.html

Romania -- http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ro.html,

BOZGORE (man without a country).

And we don't have anything against gypsies, I haven't heard of ethnic cleansing though they steal and etc. etc. We only "like" hungarians LOLOLOL Think what you write first. And I'll go some day to Timisoara (not Temesvar) and ... ass mongolian (DON'T WORRY I'LL FIND YOU).
I am not sad if you call me Vlach - at least I am part of a nation that has been here for more than 2000 years -> anD I mean this part of the Europe and not Ardeal (I don't even care now if we were IN aRDEAL first look at the map and you'll see who's here now )LOL ->now I understand some of you BOZGORE, you hate us and can't do nothing. And second of all I can't recall of any language to be related to you in the Balkans or central Europe. And all countries had a more or less influence on one another. So cry cry cry and ... . Don't be gealous, you CAN'T DON NOTHING.

And by the way why isn't this forum interested in Hungarian Culture. All I see is Ardeal, Vojvodina etc. etc. I am interested in its culture but all I could find here was about Serbian and Romanian injustice, xenophobia, chauvinism that I think doesn't characterise the entire hungarian nation. Hungaro, do you know something about you hungarian culture ? Than say something about it . Aren't you tired of just speaking about something you'll never have???

Latest news: The schwabs in Transylvania want to make their own state with the capital in Sibiu. the new land will be called "Der neue deutsche Land" because they think they were here first and they feel that they are opressed by the Romanian regime LOL. And the Tatars in Dobrogea want to build their own state with the capital in Constanta becuase they say they were there first - the new region will be called The Dobrogea Han. And a not reliable news source says that the people in Maramuresch want to build their own state the Land of the Geto-Dacians because they say they were a distinct Thracian race 2000 years ago. Their capital will be in Bistrita Nasaud. LOL LOL Ungaro grow up!!! An I really mean it. Or are you an anti-social or something ?!?! Lol

And the Hungarians in Ottawa want to build their own kingdom there because they say they were there first before the indians. The Capital will be in Peru because they claim the entire South America also. And you know why ? Because the Spanish conquistadors were of Hunic origins. So it ends up that they want the entire America. I've never had so much fun for a long time. Bravo, I love Romania.

And I agree with Anti-Nazi - why don't you say something about your culture - is this a forum of hate or a forum of Magyarorszag. Please some threads about hungarian civilisation.

I thought you were'nt going to write anymore , it takes you sometime to think doesn't it . Don't be so upset because some Hungarian beat you up , you were probably saying the same things to him in person . I think the world knows the accomplishments of the Magyar .I don't have to keep justifing as you obviously feel you have to do . But then again Romania is only 140 yrs. old , you have to invent some history . Keep talking Buta Roman your posts are quite funny . Jealousy is making you quite ugly Budos Cigany . Oh and when you keep saying man without a country , you're are making me very sad .

Yes I was telling them the same things LOL and you know ... truth hurts. And by the way I probably didn't say it properly they were trying to beat me ... but anyways it doesn't matter bozgore mongol. I see there are more people here against you so why don't you fight them all.

And so no hungarian culture ....

P.S. It takes time to think because nobody is good at the language of animals. It took time to make the language more accesible for you. Bozgore !

And by the way what accomplishments do you have - robbing Rome when you came in europe from Mongolia, or killing other ethnic groups.
I'm currently active on other international forums and I'll post a thread to this forum in order that others see how a hungarian thinks. LOL

And about this hungaric accomplishments - no threads about your civilisation and culture except bozgor-buedos, vlach-hun and etc. ?

-hahaha you phuking punk anti nazi.... Are you saying romanians have accomplishments and hungarians dont?

Only dumbass vlachs woul believe that, 2000 years ago you were here? Come talk to me when romania celebrates 200! years. You retard, who started your soo needed revolution, was he romanian or hungarian???

Hungary has a 1005 year old state, romanians not even 150... The hungarian constitution, the arany bulla, is the worlds second oldest! Dating back from 1222 AD, Romanian constitution was written in the 18-hundreds...

Hungary has 17 times as many nobelprizes as romania, Hungary has almost twice as many olympic gold medals and more than twice as much GNP/c than you do...

Hungarians were the first country in the world to decree religious freedom, to ban witch-hunts...

Hungarians stood alone against all europe at Pozsony (bratislava), alone against turks at Nandorfehervar,(belgrade)

Good luck catching up to us PUNK, and who are true bozgors? - ROmanians in Erdely!

And twice as many gypsies as we have )
And the dacians that are carved on the Columnae Traiana fighing with Traian, which is almost 2000 years old? What about that ? The dacian Kingdom is more than 2000 years old. Pussies! And Vlachs comes from Olah which i think means italians. See the conection. We were here since the roman empire. Iredentist and chauvinists. Biszkos bozgor

Our much needed revolution was started by Romanians, but your beloved Priest wanted to to take advantage of it and the fact that the army was scattered, and transform it into an anti-romanian rebellion. That's the truth!!! And Romanian Piszkos Bozgor and not Biszkos LOL

Erno , save your breathe , you don't have to justify anything to these imbeciles . Hey Nazi... Come on man you can do better than this , I'm not getting even a little mad .You can come up with other names besides bozgor .You do an awful lot of writing to say so little .You must be really upset or something , making threats , posting links to different sites ,quoting sources . Don't your propanganda - laced history books teach you about Magyar culture ? I hope you do post this thread in another forums so everyone can see what a retard you are . " BIG " man on net , little vlach in person .

Take something inteligent from me. Go out of Ardeal and fück yourselves. Shovinstic Bitches.

Yes I'm really upset. I hate you all, mongolians. I love Funar and Vadim. I hope i said a lot with these words, since reading is too exhausting for you.

Ungaro, you Vaginal discharge, since you have no life other than to dwell on events hundreds years ago, i suggest you stuff your mouse sidways up brain canal.
Eat a brick of paprika, dunce cap.

Keep up the good work, you mental-midgets.

"respectfully" and VERY sincere, yours Klaus.

Guys, I would suggest that you tone down your level of conversation, because it is so intelectual, that the level of understanding needed might be above some people.

Thanks,
your friend VAISVA1 .

What a combination , A vlach and a swab kissing one anothers ass making childish insults . You'll have to do better than that . Bye the way how old are you queers I mean guys . Let me know nazi ... which forums you post this thread .


Vaisva .... you know I like to mess with people , especially these idiots . We havn't talked for a while , you're not upset that I called you a communist . Maybe you're busy with Bulgarian national myths .

Ungaro you do make laugh.
I don't remember you calling me a communist, but I am trying to stay away from forums. Happy Easter anyway, even though this probably isn't your Eater!

And debating history with Bulgarians will start to make us love debating history with Hungarians.

Happy Easter

I celebrate both

Scuze pentru limbaj VAISVA1, PRECUM SI CELORLALTI ROMANI CARE MAI ACTIVEAZA PE FORUM, dar nu ma mai pot abtine: Ungaro cred ca ştii citi româneste fiindca ai fost "obligat si oprimat de români" sa inveti: Bei, balega ungara daca tot eshti din Timisoara ia spune-mi tu mie cu ce ti-or gresit tie romanii ca vad ca te tot plangi. Tu si cu restu' hoardelor tale de bozgori imputiti care nu shtiu sa faca altceva decat sa ceara drepturi dupa drepturi, si culmea!, sa le si primeasca. Dacia o existat cu mult inainte de a aparea specia voastra de babuini huni pe pamant. Uita-te pe siteul de la Oxford si cauta harta Daciei sa vezi pana unde se intindea in timpul lui Burebista, mergea aproape pana langa Elvetia.
Numele de orase romanesti Cluj-Napoca, Satu-MAre, Baia-MAre toate au origine pur dacică sau latina i.e. Satu-MAre voi l-ati tradus Szatmary (inseamna ceva szat sau mary in maghiara?). Cum dreq te simti tu oprimat mai frate cat timp eu am prieteni maghiari si nu unu-doi ci majoritatea si nici unu nu a fost brain-washed si nu se plange de "regimul" romanesc. Am rude in Ungaria si nici pe alea nu le aud povestind nonsensurile pe care le zici tu acuma. Mai al dreq, vrei sa starnesti mila (nejustificata, de altfel)altora care citesc forumu' si crezi ca "regiunile trianonice" se vor transforma intr-un Kosovo al ungurilor, care sa fie ajutati de NATO, USA sau shtiu eu mai cine?!?! Never-ever!
Vad ca le iei pe toate ca fiind un atac la persoana ta? Da' de cand ai fost ales tu ca un reprezentant al maghiarimii, bre? Eu am pornit discutia in mod civilizat da' vad ca tu nu poti sa te abtii daca nu imprastii cu noroi in jur. Noroiul in care te afli. (by the way hungaria has one of the world's highest degree of alcoholics)
Vad ca pe toate forumurile ii faci pe toti prosti (de la cehi la sarbi, de la austrieci la croati), tampiti si altele, da' tu cum ma-ta te consideri, dăştept mare ha? Scoala presupun ca ai facut-o in Romania si tot statul roman cred ca-ti ofera unele conditii, bune-rele cum or fi, nu cred ca eu mananc o paine mai alba decat tine. Sper ca ai inteles mesajul si daca vrei sa conversam normal lower your tone.
Arata ca esti demn sa fii ungur, sau macar pretinde.
Astept cu nerabdare sa-mi scrii in mod CIVILIZAT, si la fel si celorlalti participanti la discutie indiferent de etnia lor.

Just to remind you all.

Too much already ... You Vlachs and Serbs are boring me .

Have you read waht I wrote you upper?

Ungaro, Ungaro, I see you can't take part at a historical conversation and talk reasonable.
Are you a child or something ?

For Panonian, and Banatski: let him be, he is a little moron and besides swearing and calling names and insults he doesn't do anything.

I take part if they're intelligent . Look at your friend Panonians Ethnic map . Look at all the areas that were almost 100% Magyar that you stole . And you tell me you don't like to hear Magyar in the marketplace , and the Swab says pack your bags . You're propaganda filled imbeciles . Oh and in case you didn't know Szekely are Magyar , But I guess they didn't teach you that in your propaganda books . I hope I didn't upset you again . Would you like to throw me over the boarder . LOL .

"I take part if they're intelligent" I started it intelligent you contiuend it primitive. Look at other's opinion.

"in case you didn't know Szekely are Magyar , But I guess they didn't teach you that in your propaganda books"

Magyars are not the same as the Szekely. I have a coleague who is Szekely, and the other hungarian coleagues call him a szekely. I guess they've read our "propaganda books" too.

"you tell me you don't like to hear Magyar in the marketplace"

I didn't say I don't like I said that if you are so "ethnically cleansed" as you pretend to be how come you speak your mother tongue and some don't even know romanian.?

"Would you like to throw me over the boarder" - If we live peacefuly together no.

I should know what I am better than you . Just as Moldavian and Wallachian are all Romanian . Szekely , Csango ,Palosz are all Magyar . In fact Szekely speak the purest form of Magyar . Just out of curiosity where are you from ? Certainly not Erdely , your lack of knowledge shows me that . Probably Oltenia , you think you know everything . How many Magyar live in Romania ? 100,000 - 200,000 ,Who built the cities of Marosvasarhely , Nagyvarad , Szatmar , Arad , Temesvar , Brasso , Kolozsvar Etc. Certainly not Romanians , Magyar did . These are our cities , this is our land . You're a typical Romanian , narrow minded and hypicritical , you call us chauvinists because thats your way of not facing the truth . Is this civilized enough for you .

"I should know what I am better than you":

You certainly do. Szolt told you what you are on the other thread.

"Szekely speak the purest form of Magyar""

They certainly do. They were either the first hun tribes that came in Dacia during the 4th century, or they were colonised by the huns after teir arrival. Even your historians argue on these.

"Just out of curiosity where are you from ?":

Just out of curiosity - haven't I told you that I am from Oradea?

"How many Magyar live in Romania ? 100,000 - 200,000":

Hungarian 6.61% hungarian gypsies included

"Who built the cities of Marosvasarhely , Nagyvarad , Szatmar , Arad , Temesvar , Brasso , Kolozsvar Etc":

The people that lived in Transylvania built them - Hungarians, Romanians, Germans. I presume that not Mary Theresa the queen layed the bricks. Go in Iasi and you'll see the same type of buildings ...


"You're a typical Romanian, narrow minded and hypicritical":

Look what you said to Klaus: "go back to the land of Hitler you dumb swaben ."

told me: "a very ugly Vlach ."

+ the entire forum where you called everybody names starting from the serbian posts to the romanian posts.

Now tell me who is narrow minded?!?

Thats a very intelligent answer , "The people that lived there built them" LOL .And you also think I'm a Magyarized Vlach . You're stupider than I thought you were . Maybe you live in Nagyvarad now , but I can guess where you're from . When an ignorant swab , who knows nothing of Erdely tells me to pack my bags and leave my land that my ancestors have lived for hundreds of years , he deserves to be called that . And how long have you lived in Nagyvarad Vlach .

"You're stupider than I thought you were"
You're calling me stupid again. Now that is not a way to talk to people you don't know. Anyways I presume that's the way you were educated.

Then OK, my intelligent ONE: I have lived in Oradea for my entire life.

"an ignorant swab , who knows nothing of Erdely" Don't they? And who built my intelligent ONE, Brasov and Sibiu and so many beautiful buildings and had a flourishing merchandising system during the middle ages?

"have lived for hundreds of years " and the germans did not, my intelligent ONE?

Who built Nagyvarad ? The Magyar and Germans built Brasso , we invited them to Erdely . The Germans ( Saxons ) lived in Erdely for hundreds of years , until Romanians sold them back to Germany . That Austrian was not a Saxon . You need to get your facts straight . Just because Zsolt is some type of Magyarized vlach bozgor , doesn't mean all Szekely are . You contradict yourself . Intelligent comments get intelligent answers .

"Who built Nagyvarad ?" I stated the answer above. Of course the architects were Almost all of Hungarian and jewish descent trained and scholared in Austria.

"The 'Cetatea Oradiei'. It was built in the 12th century, destroyed, and rebuilt in Italian style during the 16th century in order to secure Oradea's growing commercial importance. As soon as the Austrian army entered the town, the cultural character of the town changed dramatically. Churches, cathedrals and cultural institutions appeared as never before and the town's population and provisions increased rapidly."

"David Busch, member of the Jewish community, held the office of Chief Engineer/Architect of the city of Oradea. He brought several well-known architects of the time from far away, such as the Rimanoczys - father and son from Hungary--who were not Jewish builders, but were responsible for some of the best known constructions in the city. From Austria came the team of Fellner and Helmer, who projected the imposing theater in the center of downtown.

Several Jewish architects originally from Bihor County, or who lived there, took part in the construction boom of this period, among them the internationally known brothers Laszlo and Jozsef Vago, Marcell Komor (or Marcel Comor), Dezso Jakab, Nandor Bach, Jozsef Reisinger, Geza Markus, Vilmos Rendes, Jozsef Guttman, Frigyes Spiegel, and Ferenc Loble; and builders Lipot Incze, Lajos Incze, Gold &Co, and Miska Schiffer. -->> notice here the variaty of nationalities.

"The "Tarii Crisurilor" Museum ("Muzeul Tarii Crisurilor" - i.e. "Museum of the Land of Cris River"), placed in the Baroque Palace, built between 1750-1789 as a replica to the Belvedere Palace of VIENNA." ->> notice here Viennna (Austria)

I might ask you the same questions about Hungary: Who built the majority of the buidings in Debreţin or Budapest?
Was it "by mistake" the austrians?
You'll have to accept that austrian had a huge impact on both nations history, hungarian and romanian.
And not only the hungarians!

Motto : "Terram autem…nullatenus concedimus nobis viventibus."
"Teritoriul…nu-l vom ceda niciodata, cita vreme vom fi in viata."
Cuvintele ducelui MENUMORUT catre invadatorii maghiari Usubuu/Osbo si Veluc/Velek, solii lui Arpad - "Gesta Hungarorum" de Anonymus, capitolul 20, pag. 18 in original

Fara indoiala ca ceea ce cred maghiarii nu este demn de crezut si tocmai de aceia sunteti singurii ce orbeste sustineti aceste aberatii neimbratisate de logica internationala. Afirmi ca nu ai citit despre "apartenenta" noastra la originea romana. Se pune in mod logic intrebarea : Ai citit vreodata o carte scrisa de un alt autor decit maghiar ? Caci daca ai fi citit, atunci cu siguranta ne-ai fi gasit prezenti in dictionare, carti de istorie, atlasuri istorice, lucrari si articole de specialitate aflate pe intreg globul si nu ai fi debitat acea afirmatie nefondata si idioata.
Sunt interzise in Ungaria cartile care scriu adevarul despre romini, asa cum este interzisa "Ungaria revizionista", 1935, de senatorul si publicistul maghiar Dr. S. Laszlo Fenyes ? Nu m-ar surprinde, deoarece voi nu stiti NIMIC REAL despre vecinii si compatriotii vostri, ROMANII. Texte imaginate de minti bolnave ca Gyorgy Takacs, Tibor Istvan Barathy, si altii si altii…nu valoreza 2 bani la scara mondiala, chiar daca ele sunt litera de lege pentru maghiarimea ignoranta, limitata la un cerc strimt de lucrari istorice de un caracter indoielnic.
Iata aici o mostra de "gindire profunda", tipic ungureasca, pe care au imbratisat-o totii ignorantii si cei usor de manipulat, maghiarii :"…stramosii poporului romin n-aveau nimic comun cu dacii si cu atit mai putin cu romanii care au invins pe acestia din urma. In Transilvania depopulata de razboaie defensive s-a infiltrat in cursul secolului XII-lea poporul de pastori al Valahiei, stramos al poporului romin de azi." - in "Dreptate pentru Ungaria", 1931, pag. 44.
Hai sa vedem ce scriu cele mai renumite si cautate compendii "internationale" - cele la care faci referire chiar tu - despre noi, despre originea noastra. Sa vedem cine are dreptate, maghiarul Pista sau rominul ?
Dau cuvintul enciclopediei "The New Encyclopedia Britannica", 1994, Editia 15, vol. 10, pag. 157, coloana 2 :"Cei mai vechi locuitori ai Romaniei ii include pe Traci, ai caror descendenti, cunoscuti ca Geti, au stabilit contacte cu coloniile grecesti ce au aparut la malul Marii Negre in secolul 7 i.C. Impreuna cu Dacii, un popor inrudit lor care traia in Muntii Carpati si Transilvania, Getii au stabilit o societate distincta in secolul 4 i.C. Romanii au subjugat pe Geto-Daci in 106 d.C. Stapinirea romana, desi scurta, a lasat mostenire puternica in limba romina, care este derivata din latina. Invaziile constante ale Gotilor au fortat pe Romani sa abandoneze Dacia la sfirsitul secolului 3 d.C., si pentru urmatoarele 8 secole, tinutul a fost invadat de Vizigoti, Huni, Avari, Slavi, Bulgari si Maghiari…In secolul 11 d.C., Transilvania a fost absorbita in Imperiul Maghiar."
"The Encyclopedia Americana", 1999, Editia Internationala, vol. 23, pag. 668-669, col. 2 si 1 :"In perioada Epocii de Fier din Europa (cca. 800-300 i.C.), Dacii, o ramura nordica a Tracilor, a aparut ca fiind cei mai vechi locuitori ai Romaniei, avind ca centru Transilvania. Conform traditiei, statul dac a fost fondat de Burebista in secolul 1 i.C…El a extins frontierele pina la Carpati, Dunarea Mijlocie, Marea Neagra si Muntii Balcani la sud de Dunare…La inceputul erei crestine, Dacii au dezvoltat o economie bazata pe o agricultura statornica, prelucrarea metalelor si faceau comert cu vecinii lor. Desi nu grecizati (helenizati), si vorbind o limba larg folosita printre Traci, Dacii erau aparent mult mai avansati din punct de vedere cultural si economic decit rudele lor Tracii si Illyrii din sud. Statul indpendent Dacia atinge apogeul sau sub regele Decebal, care desi invins de imparatul roman Domitian, 91 d.C., a fost totusi recunoscut ca rege de catre acesta. Influenta romana a patruns usor in Dacia, mai ales datorita comertului, chiar cu 2 secole inainte. Cind legiunile romane au ajuns in regiune, Dacii aveau un stat bine organizat cu centrul la Sarmizegetusa, linga Hunedoara de azi, in sud-vestul Transilvaniei. Acolo se aflau alte importante centre populate, acoperind o zona din Banat pina la Delta Dunarii. Romanii imparatului Traian au venit sa caute aurul si grinele dacilor si sa intareasca granita de nord a imperiului pe Dunare…Colonisti vorbitori de limba latina au venit in Dacia din toata intinderea Imperiului Roman. Agricultura, mineritul, mestesugurile si comertul au inflorit. Ulpia Traiana, fosta Sarmizegetusa, a devenit centrul unui cuib de forturi, campuri asezari urbane, legate intre ele cu drumuri militare. Cultura romana si crestinismul au trecut de la noii veniti la populatia nativa. Rascoale locale alaturate cu amenintarea pradalnicilor Goti, care migrau spre sud, a determinat pe imparatul Aurelian sa ordone abandonarea Daciei in 271…
Este imposibil de a determina cu certitudine stiintifica ce s-a intimplat populatiei dace dupa plecarea legiunilor romane si in timpul celor 7 secole de invazii. Pe de alta parte, populatia vorbitoare de limba romina care a aparut in ravasita fosta provincie romana dupa perioada invaziilor A FOST MAI MULT CA SIGUR DIRECT DESCENDENTA PRIMILOR DACO-ROMANI LATINIZATI. Este posibil ca DACO-ROMANII SA FI GASIT REFUGIU in Carpati in timpul invaziilor si apoi s-au intors la poalele muntilor si cimpiile Moldovei, Valahiei si Transilvaniei cind praduitorii au plecat…Dupa ce romanii au plecat si pina in secolul 10, Dacia a fost invadata de o lunga serie de praduitori si popoare migratoare din est - Gotii, Hunii, Gepizii, Avarii, Slavii, Bulgarii, Pecenegii si Cumanii. Nimeni nu a fondat importante state in Dacia, si toti au fost asimilati sau au plecat (aici amintesc proverbul ROMINESC : "Apa trece, pietrele ramin" - deci, daca nu am fi fost acolo, acest proverb nu s-ar fi nascut ! Logic !). Din cauza numarului, Slavii din secolele 6 si 7, au avut probabil un impact puternic asupra limbii OAMENILOR INDIGENI. In secolul 9, Bulgarii au introdus Crestinismul bizantin in Moldova si Valahia".
"The World Book Encyclopedia", 2003, vol. 16, pag. 416 :"Rominii sunt singurii europeni estici care isi TRASEAZA ORIGINEA SI LIMBA LOR INAPOI PINA LA ROMANI…Frumoasa CULTURA FOLCLORICA A TARANILOR ROMINI se adauga la frumusetea si farmecul tarii...Natiuni straine au controlat tara de-a lungul istoriei rominilor si AU FACUT PREA PUTIN PENTRU A-I DEZVOLTA ECONOMIA"
Acest citat este foarte bogat in informatii. Pe linga faptul ca aduce o alta marturie a originii noastre romane, el ne spune ca folclorul rominilor este rominesc si deloc imprumutat de la vecini, in speta maghiarii, asa cum afirmi tu, Kiraly bacs ! Apoi, o ultima informatie, la fel de pretioasa, care afirma ca cei care au controlat Romania in timp, deci inclusiv ungurii, NU au facut prea multe pentru a o dezvolta, asa cum afirmi tu ca voi ati facut Transilvania "bogata si frumoasa", "ca voi ati construit".
Iata un alt citat de la pag. 439 care spune ca strainii au contribuit la cultura Ungariei, asa cum este de fapt realitatea :"Azi, ungurimea include oameni de alte etnii care au adoptat limba si obiceiurile maghiare. Acesti oameni au contribuit la cultura maghiara. Celelalte grupuri etnice din Ungaria sunt Croatii, Germanii, Tiganii, Rominii, Sirbii si Slovacii." Asa cum am spus deja : VOI FURATI de la altii !! VOI SUNTETI HOTII !!
Gasesc ocazia sa introduc un alt citat din "Collier's Encyclopedia", vol. 12, pag. 364, col. 2 :"Triburile UGRICE cele mai de est s-au mutat catre sud-vest, amestecindu-se cu triburile popoarelor Turco-Bulgare din extremitatea vestica de la care au invatat arta calariei, cresterea animalelor si au adoptat sabloanele lor sociale si economice." - acum inteleg eu de ce sunteti buni la "sabloane" (vezi textul-raspuns "NOI STIM cine suntem !"). Precum se vede ati furat de la acestia ceea ce ati aratat ca stiati cind ati venit in Europa in 885 d.C. Si-mi vorbesti mie de originalitate ! HOTILOR ! Pe unde ati trecut ati furat cite ceva de la fiecare !
Revin la "The World Book Encyclopedia", 2003, vol. 16, pag. 417 :"Mai mult de 85 % dintre cetatenii Romaniei sunt Romini din antichitate. ROMINII SUNT DESCENDENTII DACILOR, ROMANILOR si triburi ca Gotii, Hunii si Slavii. Dacii traiau in teritoriul ocupat azi de Romania inca din anii 300 i.C....Ungurii formeaza cea mai larga minoritate ajungind la un nivel de 8 %."
Pag. 420 :"Mai multe orase din Transilvania s-au dezvoltat datorita bogatiei resurselor naturale." - Iata dovada ca "frumusetea si bogatia" Transilvaniei nu voi le-ati creat ci datorita acelor resurse naturale ea este bogata ! Voi ati FURAT cit ati putut de mult - vezi textul-raspuns "Ungurii - popor eminamente HOT !"
Pag. 423 :"Istoricii nu stiu exact cind a fost populata Romania in timpurile vechi. Dar o populatie numita Daci traia acolo in 300 i.C. Dacii cunosteau agricultura, mineritul, extrageau aurul si faceau comert cu vecinii. Romania s-a numit atunci Dacia.
Romanii, sub imparatul Traian, au cucerit Dacia in 106 d.C. si au transformat-o in provincie a Imperiului Roman. Soldatii romani au ocupat Dacia si coloni au fost instalati acolo. Romanii s-au casatorit cu DACII, CARE AU ADOPTAT OBICEIURI ROMANE SI LIMBA LATINA. DACIA A INCEPUT SA FIE CUNOSCUTA CA ROMANIA DATORITA OCUPATIEI SI INFLUENTEI ROMANE.
Barbari din nord si est au inceput sa invadeze Romania in timpul secolului 2. Ei au fortat pe romani sa abandoneze provincia la sfirsitul secolului 3. Aceste invazii au continuat pina in anii 1100. Printre invadatori putem aminti pe Bulgari, Goti, Huni, Maghiari, Slavi si Tatari. Aceste grupuri, mai ales Slavii, s-au casatorit cu Rominii."
"Collier's Encyclopedia", SUA, 1996, vol. 20, pag. 157, col. 1 si 2. :"Istoria nationala a Romanilor incepe in secolul 2 d.C., cind legiuni romane ale imparatului Traian au fost cantonate pe teritoriul tribului trac Dacii. NATIUNEA ROMINA A FOST FORMATA PRIN UNIUNEA ROMANILOR CU POPULATIA AUTOHTONA DIN ACEST TERITORIU, ocupaind in mare acelasi teritoriu pe care il ocupa Romania de azi. Se pare ca aceasta uniune nu a fost completa atunci cind legiunile romane s-au retras la sfirsitul secolului 3 in fata invaziilor barbare. Nici una sau doar citeva institutii romane au ramas dupa retragere, desi Crestinismul, introdus de catre Romani, a inceput sa capete aderanti in secolul 2. Retragerea ROMANA A LASAT PE ROMINI, PARTIAL CRESTINATI, SA FACA FATA INVAZIILOR BARBARE.
Mileniul urmator este cel mai obscur din istoria Romaniei. In secolul 6, triburi slave s-au asezat acolo. In secolele 7 si 8, Bulgarii au ajuns acolo si s-au asezat la sud de Dunare. La sfirsitul secolului 9, invadatorii unguri au intrat in multe parti din Romania si in timpul celei de a 2-a jumatati a secolului 13 ei si-au impus suveranitatea peste Valahia si Moldova care ERAU ORGANIZATE CA PROVINCII SEMI-AUTONOME. Unii istorici sustin ca populatia originala Daco-Romana a fost distrusa in intregime in timpul invaziilor, altii sustin ca MAJORITATEA DACO-ROMANILOR AU SUPRAVIETUIT INVAZIILOR SI SUNT STRAMOSII ACTUALILOR ROMINI."
Enciclopedia italiana "Il Modulo", 1976, vol. 21, pag. 481, col. 3 scrie :"POPORUL ROMAN DESCINDE DIN TRACII CARE LOCUIAU IN ACEA REGIUNE IN TIMPUL ROMANILOR; Rominii sunt numiti si Valahi si limba lor e clasificata printre limbile romanice."
"Dictionario da Lingua Portuguesa", Portugalia, 1975, pag. 1256, col. 1 :"ROMANIA - ARIE GEOGRAFICA A POPOARELOR DE CIVILIZATIE LATINA; arie geografica a limbilor romanice. Romania, tara Rominilor (din lat. Romanu)."
"New Catholic Encyclopedia", SUA, 2003, vol. 12, pag. 329, col. 2 :"Romania isi ARE RADACINILE IN ANTICA PROVINCIE ROMANA DACIA. DESI UN POPOR LATIN, majoritatea Rominilor au adoptat sub influenta invadatorilor bulgari traditia bizantina care a evoluat mai tirziu in Biserica Ortodoxa Romina."
Dupa ce am asternut aceste citate din enciclopedii "internationale" - la crearea enciclopediilor isi unesc eforturile foarte multi specialisti din toate domeniile pentru a da nastere unei culegeri de informatii concentrate in zeci de volume, zeci de mii de pagini -, acum voi continua cu citate din diferiti autori maghiari si "internationali", in speranta ca vei cunoaste o mica parte din ADEVARUL ascuns voua, maghiarilor, de acele minti bolnave care viseaza cai mici de stepa pe pereti si ii aseaza in mintile voastre unde cam suiera vintul ca la el acasa…adica prin stepa (pusta).
Propozitia "(re)torna (torna) fratre" - formula din secolul 6, citata de cronicarul bizantin Theophanes Confessor in "Chronography" (si de Teophylactos Simokattes, un secol mai devreme) - reprezinta cel mai vechi text rominesc cunoscut; cronicarul mentioneaza aceste 3 cuvinte ca fiind spuse de un soldat , in limba sa natala - romina veche), in timpul unei campanii militare in 587 d.C. El cerea unui camarad sa-si anuleze avintul, ceea ce a fost inteles de ceilalti ca un semnal de retragere; putem remarca grija cronicarului pentru detalii si de a pastra o informatie istorica veche :"un anume animal de povara a facut sa se miste incarcatura pe care un camarad a pus-o inapoi in timp ce striga in limba parintilor sai : (romina contemporana :"Intoarce-te frate!"). Si stapinul animalului nu l-a auzit strigind, dar restul armatei da, si gindind ca inamicii vin, ei au inceput sa fuga strigind :< Torna, torna! >".
Lucrarea "Strategykon" a lui Maurikios si "Acta s. Demetrii/Faptele Sfintului Demetriu" mentioneaza existenta elementului roman la nordul Dunarii la inceputul secolului 8 precum si limba lui latina (vezi de asemenea Linn White jr. in "Tecnica e societa nel medioevo" / "Tehnica si societatea in Evul Mediu", Milano, 1967, p. 34, si "Urbicius sau Mauricius" de Alphonse Dain in "Revue des études byzantines/Revista de studii bizantine", XXVI, 1968, p. 123 -136; "Patrologiae cursus completus. Series graeca", de J. P. Migne, vol. 116, col. 109, 531, 1361; Priscus in "Excerpta", ed. Bonn, p. 190, 206; "Historiae" a lui Theophylactus Somocatta, II, 15, ed. Bonn, p. 99).
Printre multe documente islamice despre Europa Orientala si de sud-est, se afla "Bijuteria Istoriilor" de geograful persan Gardizi, scrisa in 1049-1053 (dupa A. Decei) sau in 1094 (dupa V. Minorsky). Gardizi, descrie realitatea etnica si politica a Europei de Est, unde mentioneaza :"o natiune din Imperiul Roman (az Rum); si ei sunt toti crestini…si ei sunt mai numerosi decit maghiarii…" (vezi V. Minorsky in "Hudud al Alam", London, 1938, Gibb Memorial Series).
O balada normanda afirma ca normanzii (danezii, stabiliti in nord-vestul Frantei) isi au originea la "mult marele fluviu Dunare…numiti Dani, care erau anticii Daci…"
Ou de Danube un flum mult grant, Unde Dunarea, un fluviu mult grandios
K'Ester claiment, cler e luisant, Care este ?, clar si luminos,
Ki le regnes vait devisant, Care domina ?…?….
A cele part torne en corant La acea parte intoarce alergind
Furent cil apele Dani, Fura deci numiti Danezi,
Ki esteient ancieis Daci… Care erau anticii Daci…
Aici vreau neaparat sa fac urmatoarea remarca : NU vorbesc latina, NU vorbesc franceza veche, NU vorbesc normanda si cu toate acestea INTELEG FOARTE MULT DIN ACEST TEXT SCRIS IN NORMANDA (veche), aceasta fiind un dialect…latin…ceea ce inseamna ca se aseamana cu ROMINA…Am scris in partea dreapta traducerea mea, repet "a mea", bazata numai pe cunostintele de limba romina si franceza.Probabilitatea de ma insela in traducere este foarte mica !
"Cronica lui Nestor" sau "Povestea vremurilor de demult", prima cronica ruseasca scrisa pe la 1000 sau 1111 d.C. povesteste cum maghiarii s-au luptat cu rominii in Pannonia.
Generalul bizantin Kekaumenos atesta in scrierile sale (cca. 1090) ca valahii existau in Transilvania inaintea sosirii maghiarilor acolo.
Istoricul maghiar Koracsonyi Janos sustine acest fapt.
Acelasi vechi Anonymus, prietenul rominilor; daca el nu ar fi scris "Gesta Hungarorum / Faptele ungurilor/Magyar Helikon", am fi avut o DOVADA SCRISA a existentei noastre mai putin ! Iata-i textul :"Caci spuneau ca acolo curg cele mai renumite izvoare de ape, Dunarea si Tisa (Tyscia - in original) si alte prea vestite ape, pline cu peste bun. Ca aceasta tara o locuiesc Sclavii, Bulgarii si BLACHII, adica PASTORII ROMANILOR. Fiindca, dupa moartea regelui Athila, pamintul Pannoniei Romanii ii ziceau ca este pasune, fiindca turmele lor pasteau in tara Pannoniei. SI CU DREPT CUVINT SE SPUNEA CA PAMINTUL PANONIEI AR FI PASUNILE ROMANILOR, FIINDCA SI ACUM ROMANII PASC PE MOSIILE UNGARIEI." - capitolul 9/Despre pacea dintre duce si ruteni/Beke a vezer es az oroszok kozott/De pace inter ducem et ruthenos, pag. 9 in original; ung. :"Mondtak ugyanis, hogy ott nagyon nevezetes forrasvizek omlenekossze : a Duna, a Tisza es pompas halakban bovelkedo egyeb nevezetes forrasok. Azt a foldet - mondtak - szlovenel (Sclavi - in original; nu stiu de ce maghiarii au tradus cuvintul "Slavi" prin "Sloveni"), bolgarok, blachok es a romaiak pasztorai lakjak. Ugyanis Attila kiraly halala utan a romaiak Pannonia foldjenlegeloknek hivtak azert, mivel a nyajaik Pannonia foldjen legeltek. Es joggal mondhattak Pannonia foldjerol, hogy az a romaiak legeloje, hiszen eppen most is a romaiak legelnek Magyarorszag javaibol."
Pag. 21 in original, capitolul 24/Despre tara Ultrasilvana/Az erdontuli fold :"…dupa ce a prins sa afle de la locuitori despre bunatatea TARII DE DINCOLO DE PADURI, unde domnia o avea un oarecare BLAC Gelou,…", ung.:"tudomast szerzett az ott lakoktol az ERDONTULI FOLD JOSAGAROL, ahol valami Gyulu nevu BLAK uralkodott."
Acesta este pasajul unde Anonymus boteaza Transilvania ca "tara de dincolo de paduri" (Terre Ultrasiluane = Tara Ultrasilvana). De la sfirsitul secolului XII s-a introdus denumirea de Transilvania in loc de Ultrasilvania.
Precum ne spune maghiarul Anonymus, NOI ERAM ACOLO !!! cind ungurii au venit sa ne FURE tara !!! VLAHII ERAU ACOLO !! OLAHII ERAU ACOLO !!…si peste NOI domnea Gelu !
Pag. 21 in original, capitolul 25/Despre prevederea lui Tuhutum/Teteny okossaga :"…si ca LOCUITORII DIN ACEA TARA SUNT…BLACHI si Sclavi…si ducele lor Geleou…", ung.:"Megpedig azert, mivel blaszok es szlovenek…a vezeruk, Gyalu,…"
Capitolul 26/Cum s-au dus in contra lui Gelu/Hogyan mentek Gyalu ellen, pag. 22 in original :"…si a plecat peste paduri, spre rasarit, in contra lui GELOU, DUCELE BLACHILOR. IAR GELOU, DUCELE ULTRASILVAN,…", ung.:"…es hatrahagyva tarsait, nekiindult az erdokon tulra kelet fele Gyalu blak vezer ellen. Jovetelet hallva pedig Gyalu,…"
Capitolul 44/Despre insula Dunarii/A Duna szigete, pag. 34 in original :"…pina ce TOTI LOCUITORII DIN ACEA PATRIE, DE LA MURES PINA LA FLUVIUL TIMIS,…Si cind au voit sa treaca peste fluviul Timis, le-a IESIT INAINTE GLAD,…", ung.:"Innen tovabbvonulva a bogei reszekre jutottak. Ott ket hetig maradtak, amig annak a hazanak osszes lakossagat a Marostol a Temes folyoig meghoditottak,…Midon at akartak kelni a Temes folyon, ellenuk jott annak a hazanak a vezere, Galad,…"
Capitolul 46/Despre portul Moger/A Magyar-rev, pag. 36 in original :"Dupa trecerea Dunarii si-au asezat tabara linga Dunare, pina la Apele Calde de Sus. Si auzind aceasta, toti Romanii care locuiau in Pannonia…", ung.:"Mikor odaat voltak, tabort utottek a Duna mellett a felhevizekig. Ennek hallatara a Pannonia foldjen lako osszes romaiak…"
Capitolul 50/Despre devastarea Pannoniei/Pannonia elpusztitasa, pag. 39 in original :"…au trimis o armata impotriva lui Menumorut, ducele din Byhor,…", ung.:"…sereget kuldte Men-Marot bihari vezer elle."
Un secol dupa Kekaumenos (cca. 1200), cronicarul bizantin Kynnamos, descrie pe rominii de la nordul Dunarii, el luind parte alaturi de comandantul imperial Leon Vatatzes intr-o campanie militara impotriva ungurilor in 1167 : "se spune ca ei sunt colonistii sositi cu mult timp in urma din Italia" (in original: "qui Italorum coloni quondam fuisse perhibentur"). Vezi de asemenea Ioannes Cinnamus in "Epitome rerum ab Ioanne et Alexio Comnenis gestarum", VI, ed. Bonn, p. 260.
Cronicarul englez Ranulphus Higden (1280-1363) in lucrarea sa "Polychronicon" (tiparita mult mai tirziu, in 1865, in Londra) la pag. 172, descriind Pannonia, releva detaliul ca locuitorii tarii au fost impinsi de catre noii veniti - ungurii (vezi de asemenea Fest Sandor in "Anonymus angol forrasai/Sursele engleze ale lui Anonymus" in "Egyetemes Philologiai Kozlony", 1935).
Despre existenta Rominilor/Romanilor in Pannonia scria si cronicarul francez Odo de Deogilo (Deuil) care-l insotea pe regele Ludovic VII in Cruciada II (1147) in "De Ludovici VII profectione in Oriente" in "Monumenta Germaniae Historica", Scriptores, XXVI, p. 60, 62. Vezi si J.P. Migne in "Patrologiae cursus completus. Series latina". CLXXXV, col. 1213).
Calugarul dominican Ricardus in 1237 scria despre calatoria camaradului sau Iulian in tinuturile Tatarilor, in "Ungaria Magna": "Qui (sc. Septem duces cum populis suis) cum multa regna pertransissent et destruxissent, tandem venerunt in terram, que nunc Ungaria dicitur, tunc vero DICEBATUR PASCUA ROMANORUM" (vezi "De facto Ungariae magne a fratre Riccardo invento tempore domini Gregorii pape noni", I, 2, sau pe Heinrich Dorrie in "Drei Texte zur Geschichte der Ungarn und Mongolen. Die Missionsreisen des fr. Iulianus O.P. ins Ural-Gebiet (1234/35) und nach Russland (1237) und der Bericht des Erzbischofs Peter uber die Tartaren", in "Nachrichten der Akademie der Wissenschaften in Gottingen", Phil.-hist. Klasse, 1956, no. 6, p. 151).
Precum si Thomas de Spalato in 1245, apud "896 e.n. Mogyoria = Ungaria - Magyarorszag ", pag. 39, Venetia, Centrul European de Cercetari si Studii Istorice.
Cronicarul maghiar Simon din Keza scria in cronica sa "Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum/Faptele Hunilor si Ungurilor" unde el accentueaza pe originea latina a rominilor si continuitatea elemnetului roman :"Pannonie, Panfilie, Macedonie, Dalmacie et Frigie ciuitates, que crebris spoliis et obsidionibus per Hunos erant fatigate, natali solo derelicto in Apuliam per mare Adriaticum de Ethela licentia impetrata, transierunt, Blackis, qui ipsorum (Romanorum) fuere pastores et coloni, remanentibus sponte in Pannonia"; "Postquam autem filii Ethele in prelio Crumheld cum gente Scitica fere quasi deperissent, Pannonia extitit X annis sine rege, Sclavis tantummodo, Grecis, Teutonicis, Messianis et Ulahis remanentibus in eadem, qui uiuente Ethela populari seruicio sibi seruiebant" (vezi pe Szentpetery in "Scriptores rerum Hungaricarum", I, p. 156-157, 163).
Citate din cronica lui Simon din Keza pot fi gasite in "Chronicon pictum" (1358) unde se scrie de asemena despre romini :"....vlachis qui ipsorum coloni existere ac pastores remanentes sponte in Pannonia" - capitolul 6, "Fugat nationes" si din secolul 15 in cronicile tirzii "Chronicon Posoniense", "Chronicon Dubnicense" si "Chronicon Budense".
Alta sursa este "Descriptio Europae Orientalis/Descrierea Europei Estice" scrisa in 1308 de catre un scriitor anonim francez. Lucrarea este conceputa ca un raport catre Carol Robert de Anjou, atunci pretendent la coroana Ungariei, si Charles de Valois, ca pretendent la tronul Imperiului Bizantin. Rominii sunt descrisi ca fiind descendentii romanilor :"Notandum (est hic) quod inter machedoniam, achayam et thesalonicam est populus ualde magnus et spatiosus qui uocantur blazi, qui et olim fuerunt romanorum pastores, ac in Ungaria ubi earnt pascua romanorum propter nimiam terre uiriditatem et fertilitatem olim morabantur. Sed tandem ab ungaris inde expulsi, ad partes illas fugierunt; habundant enim caseis optimis, lacte et carnibus super omnes nationes...". Astfel el sugereaza ca descendentii romanilor au gasit refugiu in Transilvania unde au si ramas. (vezi si postfata lui O. Gorka la prima editie a "Anonymi descriptio Europae Orientalis", Krakow, 1916).
Una dintre cele mai sincere dovezi a existentei rominilor in Transilvania este cunoscuta lucrare "Nibelungenlied/Cintul Nibelungilor", o detaliata cronica a societatii medievale germane (o lucrare similara "Cintului lui Roland" sau "El Cide"), unde rominii sunt pomeniti ca un popor bine conturat, ca descendenti ai romanilor, a carei origine este personificata prin numele conducatorilor lor, Ramunc, care a sosit la nunta lui Attila cu un corp militar de 700 de luptatori : "Der herzoge Ramunc uzer Vlachen lant, / mit siben hundert mannen kom er fur si gerannt" - "Ducele Ramunc, conducatorul Valahilors, a venit imediat la ei cu 700 de oameni", (vezi si "Der Nibelunge not", XII, ed. K. Lachmann, Berlin, 1878, p. 174; Francis P. Magoun jr. cu "Geographical and Ethnic Names in the Nibelungenlied", p. 129-130; Fritz Schuster cu "Herzog Ramunc aus dem Walachenland", in "Sudost-Forschungen", XI, 1946-1952, p. 284-290).
Poggio Bracciolini (1380 - 1459) este primul umanist italian care scrie despre originea romana a rominilor in lucrarea sa "Disceptationes convivales", 1451 :"Apud superiores Sarmatas colonia est ab Traiano ut aiunt derelicta, quae nunc etiam inter tantam barbariem multa retinet latina vocabula, ab Italis, qui eo profecti sunt, notata. Oculum di****, digitum, manum, panem, multaque alia quibus apparet ab Latinis, qui coloni ibidem relicti fuerunt, manasse eamque coloniam fuisse latino sermone usam". (vezi Mariano Baffi cu "La romanita della Romania e gli umanisti italiani", in "L'Osservatore Romano", no. 256 (32633), 5 November 1967, p. 6).
Secretar apostolic si faimos umanist italian, Flavio Biondo (1392 - 1463), afirma si el originea noastra romana intr-un apel catre regii Europei la cresterea pericolului expansiunii turcesti :"…Et qui e regione Danubio item adiacent Ripenses Daci, sive Valachi, originem, quam ad decus prae se ferunt praedicantque Romanam, loquela ostendunt, quos catholice christianos Roman quotannis et Apostolorum limina invisentes, aliquando gavisi sumus ita loquentes audiri, ut, quae vulgari communique gentis suae more di****, rusticam male grammaticam redoleant latinitatem" (vezi F. Gilbert cu "Biondo, Sabellico and the beginnings of Venetian official historiography", in "Florilegium historiale").
In 1426, Rinaldo degli Albizzi, ambasadorul florentin la curtea regelui Ungariei, enumera natiunile care traiau in Europa de Est :"Locuiesc in Sclavonia (azi Slovenia) care au paminturi si orase raspindite, si mai intii : ungurii, germanii, valahii, slavii care au o limba strict latina", lat :"Lingue in Schiavonia, che hanno terre e ville di per se, et prima: Unghari, Tedeschi, Chiavi, Vallachi habent quasi Romanam linguam..." (vezi V. Makuscev cu "Monumenta historica Slavorum meridionalium vicinorumque populorum e tabulariis et bibliothecis Italicis", I/1, Warszaw, 1874, p. 530).
Papa Pius II 1458 - 1464 (Aeneas Silvius Piccolomini) scria in secolul 15, in "Historia rerum ubique gestarum locorumque descriptio" :"Valachi genus Italicum sunt ("VALAHII SUNT ITALIENI"- ATENTIE ! cit de apropiate sunt cele 2 limbi, romina si latina), si daca Valahii sunt Italieni, atunci, prin analogie, Valahii sunt Romani, caci Italienii sunt descendentii Romanilor…Ai inteles sau este mult prea greu pentru tine, mai Kiraly bacs ?), quemadmodum paulopost referemus."; "Postremo Romanis armis subacti ac deleti sunt. Et coloniam Romanorum quae duces coercet eo deducta, duce quodam Flacco, a quo Flaccia nuncupata. Exin longo temporis tractu corrupto, ut sit vocabulo Valachia dicta. Et pro Flaciis Valachi appellati. Sermo adhuc genti romanus est, quamuis magna ex parte mutatus, et homini Italico uix intelligibilis".
Si in lucrarea "Commentarium rerum memorabilium", papa Pius II isi exprima aceiasi opinie :"Valachi lingua utuntur Italica, verum imperfecta, et admodum corrupta; sunt qui legiones Romanas eo missas olim censeant adversus Dacos, qui eas terras incolebant; legionibus Flaccum quendam praefuisse, a quo Flacci primum, deinde Valachi, mutatis litteris, sint apellatti; quorum posteri (ut ante relatum est) barbariores barbaris evasere"- descrierea sa despre valahi a fost inserata mai tirziu in "Cronica de la Nurnberg" de Hartmann Schedel, aparuta in 1493 in latina si in acelasi an in germana sub titlul "Buch der Chroniken".
Acelasi papa scria :"Valachi insulas Istri accolunt, inter quas Peucen apud veteris fama notam; in Thracia quoque seda habent." = "Valahii locuiesc in insulele Dunarii, in particular insula Peuce (undeva in Delta Dunarii); de asemenea si in Tracia." In secolul 15 el numea inca zona Bulgariei ca fiind TRACIA; de altfel, ea se numeste astfel si azi, fiind o provincie in Bulgaria de azi. Tot el mentiona ca regele Matei Corvin Huniade din Ungaria, era de origine Romin.
Antonius Bonifinius, secretarul regelui Ungariei Matei Corvin scria :"Valahii din Transilvania sunt descendentii directi ai legionarilor si colonistilor care s-au stabilit in Dacia la ordinele imparatului Traian; limba lor, care seamana cu italiana, o dovedeste."
Catre sfirsitul secolului 16, geograful italian Giovanni Antonio Magini exprima si el opinia ca Rominii sunt de origine latina si ca sunt descendentii vechilor colonisti chemati de imparatul Traian in Dacia lui Decebal. - "Geographiae Universae tum veteris, tum novae absolutissimum opus…",1597, Colonia.
Istoricul sas Johann Troester scria in "Das alt und neu teutsche Dacia…",1666, Nurnberg, Cartea IV, capitolul IV :"Moldova, Valahia si Transilvania nu sunt altceva decit ramasitele legiunilor romane, pe care imparatul Aurelian le-a retras, asa cum am mentionat deja…Cind Aurelian nu a mai fost capabil sa stapineasca invazia Gotilor in Dacia si a fost obligat sa-si retraga legiunile, ACEI COLONISTI ROMANI AU RAMAS SUB DOMINATIA GOTILOR; si cum ei s-au amestecat cu diferiti alti oameni, numarul a crescut incit ei au ocupat atit Valahia cit si Moldova…Oricit ar fi de umilitoare conditiile in care ROMINII sunt fortati sa traiasca in Transilvania, EI SUNT UN PROTOTIP ASEMANATOR ANTICILOR ROMANI; privindu-i atent, oricine respecta trecutul si face un studiu al faptelor se poate convinge singur de acestea.
Totul inclina sa dovedeasca ca Rominii nu pot fi altcineva decit descendentii acelora pe care Horatiu ii descrie in a 3-a carte a odelor :
Sed rusticorum mascula militum
Proles, Sabellis docta ligonibus
Versare glebas et severae
Matris ad arbitrium recisos
Portare fustes…"
J. Thumann scria in "Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der oestlichen europaischen Volker", Leipzig, 1774 :"Sub ocupatia romana, ei (Rominii) au adoptat limba si obiceiurile romanilor; si cind Caracalla i-a numit cetateni romani, ei au luat numele de romini.
Este imposibil sa acceptam ideea ca imparatul Aurelian a transferat toti locuitorii Daciei peste Dunare; in mod firesc, un mare numar a ramas intr-o tara asa de mare si muntoasa.
Invazia maghiarilor din 896 i-a gasit in Transilvania si in acea parte a Ungariei situate linga Dunare.
Valahii ocupau demult Valahia si Moldova."
Amedee Thierry nota :"Valahii lasau ca timpul sa-i scape de stapinii vremelnici si perpetuau in mijlocul barbarilor de toate rasele, resturile unei vechi civilizatii."
Istoricul maghiar Huszti Andras ne aduce si el o frumoasa dovada a romanitatii noastre in "O es Uj Dacia, azaz Erdelynek regi mostani allapotjarol valo Historia / Dacia antica si noua, adica istoria adevarata a situatiei Transilvaniei din vechime si de acum", Viena - Bestben, 1791, pag. 131 :"Nici o alta natiune nu are o limba care sa fie atit de aproape de limba antica a romanilor decit Valahii. Aceasta este o dovada sigura care nu poate insela, caci ei sunt in Transilvania descendentii anticilor colonisti romani."
Patriotul maghiar, baronul Wesselenyi spunea in Ansamblul General din Cluj in 1843 :"Nu trebuie sa refuzam a-i numi pe numele lor de Romini, caci EI SUNT INTR-ADEVAR DESCENDENTII ROMANILOR."
Francezul A. de Gerando, ginerele contelui ungur Teleki Emerik, senior de Szek scrie in "La Transilvanie et ses habitants", Paris, 1845 :"Valahii sunt in Transilvania cei mai vechi locuitori ai pamintului…"
Primul ministru al Austriei, contele von Fickelmont scria in 1852 :"Toti trebuie mai intii sa ne intrebam daca maghiarii au fost chemati de catre istoria lor, de numarul lor si de stadiul lor de civilizatie sa joace un rol independent, rol dorit in relatia cu Imperiul Austriac si sa ceara suprematia pe care au uzurpat-o altor natiuni, CARE INAINTEA LOR CU SECOLE AU OCUPAT ACELE VASTE TERITORII si carora ei le-au dat numele lor prin forta armelor.
E. A. Blitz nota despre autohtonia rominilor in Transilvania :"Indiferent de ce s-ar dori, este totusi cert faptul ca trebuie sa-i consideram pe valahi nu numai ca pe cei mai numerosi, dar si ca pe CEI MAI VECHI DINTRE ACTUALII LOCUITORI AI TRANSILVANIEI." - in "Handbuch der Landeskunde Siebenburgen. Eine physikalisch-statistisch-topographische Beschreibung dieses Landes", Sibiu, 1857, pag. 139-140.
Iosif al II-lea, imparatul Imperiului Habsburgic, scria despre valahi :"Acesti saraci, supusi romini, care sunt fara indoiala cei mai vechi si mai numerosi locuitori ai Transilvaniei…"
Edouard Sayons scria in volumul "L'Histoire des Hongrois/Istoria ungurilor", 1874, Paris, pag. 59 :"…abila argumentare a domnului Roesler este departe de a fi convingatoare…" - aluzie la "teoria lui Roesler" precum ca rominii au venit in Transilvania dupa maghiari.
Alt istoric maghiar, Paul Hunfalvy (care de fapt era german sau evreu maghiarizat si un anti-romin notoriu) scria in secolul 19 :"Stramosii actualilor Romini niciodata nu au incetat, inca din timpurile lui Traian, sa traiasca in vechea Dacie, adica Transilvania, Moldova si Valahia; in consecinta, locuitorii ROMINI AI ACESTOR TARI SUNT DESCENDENTII DIRECTI AI COLONISTILOR STABILITI DE TRAIAN IN DACIA." - in "Neuere Erscheinungen der rumanischen Geschichtsschreibung", Viena, 1886, pag. 9 - 10.
Julius Jung scria in "Die romanische Landschaften des romischen Reiches", Innsbruck, 1881, pag. 480-481 :"…cea mai buna solutie in problema privind originea rominilor este sa admitem CONTINUITATEA POPORULUI ROMIN IN DACIA lui Traian, la sud de ea si in peninsula balcanica."
Germanul Traugott Tamm ne ofera si opinia sa despre originea rominilor in "Uber den Ursprung der Rumanen. Ein Beitrag zur Ethnographie Sud-Ost Europas", Bonn, 1891, pag. 85-86 :"ROMINII LOCUIESC SI AZI ACOLO UNDE LOCUIAU STRABUNII LOR ACUM 17 SECOLE; popoarele au venit unul dupa altul si au dominat provinciile Dunarii de Jos, - dar niciunul nu a putut distruge existenta nationala a rominilor. "Apa trece, pietrele ramin" spune un proverb rominesc."
Evreul irlandez Bram Stoker ne spune si el cartea sa "Dracula" (1897), care a cucerit lumea cu elucubratiile despre Vlad Tepes :"Acolo sunt 4 nationalitati distincte : Saxonii in sud,…VALAHII, CARE SUNT DESCENDENTII DACILOR; Maghiarii in vest, si Secuii in est si nord…care sustin ca descend din Attila si huni".
Ziaristul sovin Bekists Gustav scria in "Budapesti Hirlap" din 18 mai 1904 :"…tocmai agitatorii DACO-ROMANI si slovacii cunosc cit se poate de bine limba maghiara." - cu alte cuvinte si el considera ca ROMINII SUNT VECHII DACO-ROMANII !
In lucrarea istoricilor maghiari Patcsery Karoly si Denes Karoly intitulata "Magyarorszag tortenete", Budapesta, 1911, este alcatuita o harta care arata ducatele lui Menumorut, Gelu si Glad in teritoriile ce astazi formeaza Maramuresul, Crisana, Banatul si Transilvania.
"Nici un argument valid nu poate contrazice afirmatia ca cei care au construit tumulii funerari din Moldova datind din Epoca Pietrei, sunt aceiasi cu cei numiti de istoricii antici "Daci" sau "Geti" - Eug. Pittard in "Studiu despre indicele cefalic in Romania cu un eseu de repartitie geografica al acestui caracter", 1927, pag. 92.
Istoricul britanic R.W. Seaton-Watson scria in "A History of the Romanians / O Istorie a Rominilor", Archon Books, 1963, pag. 427 :"Rominii, este sigur s-o spunem, sunt Dacii romanizati,…".
Senatorul si publicistul maghiar Dr. S. Laszlo Fenyes, care a fost expulzat din Ungaria pentru ca a scris aceasta carte, carte care a fost (poate inca mai este) interzisa in tara "civilizatilor" maghiari, "doritori de adevar", ne spune la pag. 79 din "Ungaria revizionista" :"Ciobanii romini predominau in Carpati si nordul Ungariei inca din secolul 12; IN TRANSILVANIA EI AU CONTINUAT SA EXISTE CU SECOLE INAINTE."
In "Ardealul, pamint rominesc", pag. 144, autorul american Milton G. Lehrer scria :"In muntii impaduriti si in cetatile de pe coline au rezistat populatiile pasnice din Dacia Traiana invaziilor care s-au succedat in decursul veacurilor. Acolo s-a zamislit insasi fiinta neamului rominesc."
La pag. 250 putem citi :"…care nu se putea realiza decit prin desfiintarea nationalitatilor conlocuitoare si in special prin desfiintarea viguroasei si atit de numeroasei NATIONALITATI ROMINESTI CARE DESCINDEA DIN LEGIONARII LUI TRAIAN SI DIN DACII LUI DECEBAL."
La Congresul International de Antropologie din 1939, specialistii au ajuns la urmatoarea concluzie :"Conform compozitiei singelui lor, LOCUITORII ROMANIEI SUNT GRUPATI IN JURUL UNUI CERC ROMAN CARE ESTE PREDOMINANT IN ZONA MUNTOASA A TRANSILVANIEI, si care este bogat in elemente europene. La un anumit grad, aceste elemente indica o descendenta comuna cu alte populatii latine din Europa. Aceste elemente sunt gasite in toate tarile care au fost parte integranta din anticul Imperiu Roman."
Antropologul Hirschfeld sustine conform "indicatorului biologic" urmatoarele :"DIN PUNCT DE VEDERE AL COMPOZITIEI SINGELUI ROMINILOR, se gasesc legaturi cu natiunile germanice SI LATINE din vestul Europei de o parte, si cu Slavii de cealalta parte; ROMINII SUNT TOTAL DIFERITI DE LOCUITORII BALCANILOR."
"Burebista, care era de origine getica…" - "Romania" de Romulus Seisanu, pag. 12. Trebuie sa fac aici un comentariu deoarece ai scris intr-unul din mesajele tale ca Burebista era…Grec. Eroare ! In mod evident tu nu esti familiarizat cu popoarele antice, si nici cu stramosii maghiarilor de altfel. In antichitate, in Peninsula Balcanica traiau doar 3 mari familii de popoare : Grecii, Tracii si Illyrii. DACII si GETII (sau DACO-GETII) ERAU TRACI ! Tracii erau diferiti de Greci ! Asa cum Grecii erau diferiti de Illyri sau Illyrii de Traci. Ai inteles ? E grea istoria Europei cind nu esti european si ai venit ieri din strafundurile Asiei calare pe caluti micuti, nu-i asa ?! Pentru noi e simpla, deoarece noi traim aici de mii de ani ! Fiecare piatra ne cunoaste, fiecare riu ne sopteste pe limba noastra, iara voua…straini va sunt !
Romanistul german E. Gamillscheg afirma :"DACO-ROMANII, ADICA ROMINII, CONTINUA FARA INTRERUPERE PE VECHII COLONISTI AI IMPARATULUI TRAIAN." in "Despre originea rominilor", Bucuresti, 1940, pag. 3.
Arheologul american Paul MacKendrick scria in "The Mute Stones Speak - the Story of Archaelogy in Italy", 1979 :"Retragerea romana din 271 d.C., ordonata de Aurelian, a insemnat evacuarea administratiei si a proprietarilor de paminturi. DACII AU RAMAS. Eu fusesera deja romanizati, si romanizarea a continuat pina in ziua de azi. Dupa ce armata si administratia romane s-au retras, autohtonii au continuat sa vorbeasca latina, care sta inca la bazele limbii romine."
Maghiarul Paul Schveiger (probabil evreu) scria in "Hungarian Studies/Studii maghiare", 1989, Akademiai Kiado, Budapesta :"contactele lingvistice acopera intregul teritoriu al Transilvaniei si o importanta parte a actualului teritoriu ungar…"
Ghidul turistic "Romania si Moldova" , 2001 in Editura Lonely Planet (Australia) de autorii Nicola Williams si Kim Wildman ne spune la pag. 324-325 :"Maramures, acum parte integranta din Transilvania, imparte aceiasi istorie ca si vecinul sau de la sud; marea diferenta fiind ca Dacia maramuresana nu a fost niciodata cucerita de romani, dobindind astfel titlul de "tara Dacilor liberi".
Maramures, avind capitala la Baia-Mare, a fost documentat prima data in 1199. Ungaria si-a extins gradat stapinirea peste aceasta regiune incepind cu secolul 13.
Maramuresul a fost anexat de Transilvania la jumatatea secolului 16, apoi cedat Imperiului Austriac in 1699. Nu a fost returnat Romaniei decit in 1918."
Daca consideri ca titlurile, autorii, citatele prezentate aici nu sunt de ajuns pentru a sparge gheata ce-ti acopera mintea, atunci bibliotecile si Internetul ofera o imensitate de dovezi de acest gen. Important este sa VREI sa STII !

ACESTIA AM FOST SI SUNTEM NOI ! NOI STIM CINE SUNTEM ! NOI AVEM ISTORIE !

Please feel free to post questions!

bravo... articol foarte bine documentat... desigur ungaro o sa spuna ca este numai propaganda(la faza cu autorii austrieci si saxoni, sa nu mai vorbim de Iosif II "dusmanul poporului ungur") sau falsuri(precum gesta lui anon. ) ...

Yes I see Nazi... Almost all Magyar or Magyar Jews ,just because some foreign archetects were hired doesn't mean Magyars didn't build them with their sweat, where are the Romanians , you're trying to hard , relax . Just except the fact those cities I mentioned Were built mostly by Magyar , payed for by Magyar and built when it was part of Magyarorszag , What cities have Romanians built in Erdely since your occupation . Think real hard , I'll give you a hint 0 . In an international court you Romanians should be paying rent. Try again Buta Nazi

"doesn't mean Magyars didn't build them with their sweat": the Austro-Hungarians built it and not the Hungarians

You should have payed atention to the words: "As soon as the Austrian army entered the town, the cultural character of the town changed dramatically. Churches, cathedrals and cultural institutions appeared as never before and the town's population and provisions increased rapidly."(Wikipedia) ->> so the cities florished when the Austrians came

"what cities have Romanians built in Erdely": maybe the flat you may be living in or the supermarket you go every saturday, or the cinema, etc. if you have a social life.

"since your occupation": as Nicholas said historical reparation not occupation

"Buta Nazi" Talking dirty again - asking you again: is this the way you were educated?

But you still haven't answered my question: Who built the majority of the buildings in Debreţin or Budapest?
Was it "by mistake" the austrians? Please answer!

As you say it intelligent questions demand intelligent answers.

And my final statement: If it wouldn't have been for the Austrian your great hungarian civilisation wouldn't have been where it is now. Please feel free to bring arguments, but not buta roman and etc. Those are not arguments but acts of primitivism. ACT CIVIL.

"I must really have upset you": the article on the Romanian Forum was not written by me I just pasted it there. And you haven't upset me. I begin to like the way you think and have fun, lots of fun. lol
Nonetheless I thought the article which was inspired from the Gesta Hungaroum - the book of your nation would proove smth.

But this doesn't mean anything. Answer the questions from my previous post. I'm very curious ...

Go and flush the toilet with yourself hungarian piece of garbage. Come and see how many of your are in Italy. Wash yourself every now and then because you make the air stinky with the blackness of your skin. Garbage, Garbage!!!!!! filio di puttane! Get out of Europe

If you bother to research , very few if any Austrians lived in Magyarorszag or Magyar in Austria , during Austrian occupation or Austria Hungary . The populations were seperate. So even though they may have been Austrian archetects , Magyar built them . Don't try to minimize our accomplishments or culture , which you're trying to do by saying others did them .You're very Transparent . You just can't stand the fact that Magyar made Erdely what it is today, and it will always be the dominant culture here , whether you're the majority or not . In 100 , 200 yrs. your occupation will be a footnote in history .

Pentru Anonymous: Gesta-Hungarorum este socotita de istoricii unguri cartea care descrie fundamentarea natiei maghiare, marcând punctul de referinta al inceputului istoriei lor asa ca vrand-nevrand trebuie sa accepte ce scrie in ea. Sa nege ce scrie in ea este ca si cum le-ai spune ca ei sunt de origine româna.

I should fill this whole page with HA HA , you are quite funny

"You just can't stand the fact that Magyar made Erdely what it is today" -->> On the contrary I apreciate what they did, but they were not the only ones. And as the passage from wikipedia says: building flourished when "the autrian army entered the city"

"I should fill this whole page with HA HA , you are quite funny" -->> laughing of your own history, or what?

I've read this topic, but not entirely, and I want to make some statements:

- Romanians (or Vlahs) are not Balkans nor Slavic. They are latin. More than 85% of romanian language is latin based. In fact along with italian is one of the languages that are a lot alike latin. Because of the slavic countries around Romania, the romanian language has a small part of influences but that are smaller than 10%
- In the first article the debate is based on cultural achievements of hungarians in Transylvania, but there is no statements about romanian peasant revolts. I note here only 3 of them: Gheorghe Doja, Horia Closca & Crisan, Avram Iancu. Romanian were under hungarian domination. They were oppressed… than how can they have newspapers?
- Mathias, the king of Hungary was … Romanian. His Romanian name was: Matei Corvin, but this is another story
- Again nothing about romanian king Mihai which at 1600 unites the 3 romanian countries, starting from Valachia, through Transylvania and finishing in Moldavia
- Another argument: many people speaking of Transylvania without ever putting a foot there. Percents are made on the spot! Please visit Transylvania and see the real percents of population, of language and traditions
- I cant see no parallel to the Moldova (former Basarabia, part of Moldavia, actually and independent state). But again, romanians are imperialists!
- Again no word about hungarians considerations for the magyars in Transylvania. Many of them were fervent about the ideas of uniting Transylvania with Hungary. All those ideas flew with the wind after visiting Hungary and been treated as country cousins, rednecks or worse as….. surprise: ROMANIANS!!!
- Another thing: in this rows of arguments it was mentioned a battle at Belgrad against Otoman Empire (Turkey) were brave hungarians fought alone. The surprises are two: one part of the army was romanian from Valachia. The other surprise is that for more than 1000 years the otomans were stopped like in a buffer in the 2 small romanian countries. This 2 small romanian countries contributed to stop Otoman expansion in Europe for more than 1000 years and you give as an argument one battle?

There are more thins denatured by this blindness but I will stop here.

Another long-winded Vlach , with his justifying propaganda . save your breath roman .

Vlad let him(them) be and believe what they want. You don't have to justify your own history. Besides they don't even care about true facts written in THEIR history. They only care about the(ir) austrian buildings and austrian flourishing cities in the Western Romania, isn't that so Ungaro?

I guess Gest Hungarorum is our propaganda. "Erted" Hungaro?

Vlad let him(them) be and believe what they want. You don't have to justify your own history. Besides they don't even care about true facts written in THEIR history. They only care about the(ir) austrian buildings and austrian flourishing cities in the Western Romania, isn't that so Ungaro?

I guess Gesta Hungarorum is our propaganda. "Erted" Hungaro?

First ... Gesta was writen hundreds of years after the fact , and not just by Magyar , much of it has been proven inaccurate . So even if some Vlachs were in Erdely , that doesn't mean they're descendent from dacians , It only proves you're a migratory people . Your population extends from Greece to Poland to Russia , your highest concentration is in Wallachia and Mold. this should say something . Your theory that you were hiding in the woods and mountains is ridiculous . Anyway it doesn't matter who was first . You havn't answered my ques. who is an Austro- Hungarian . How stupid that sounds when you say as soon as Austrians step foot in Magyarorszag everything begins to flourish . It was flourishing well before then . You try to belittle our accomplishments ,but you can't . Our contributions to western civ. far outsurpasses , Romanians and Austrians combined . Read some history about famous Hungarians . scientists , politcians , military , athletes etc. So don't even try you very jealous , transparent Vlach .

hahaha are you kidding me? you held the ottomans back for 1000 years? it seems peculiar to me as wallachia and moldova was conquered by the turks before the conquest of constantinople - i.e. before the ottoman empire became an empire...

and I believe janos hunyadi's mother and wife were hungarian; making his son matyas 3/4 magyar. but even if he was 100 % vlah or gipsy it wouldn't matter, anyone who comes to love our land, and does so disregarding his ethnicity for a greater good, for the love of something greater than idiotic, STEREOTYPICAL nationalism, will be welcomed in hungary as my brother!!

but even if he was 100 % vlah or gipsy it wouldn't matter, anyone who comes to love our land, and does so disregarding his ethnicity for a greater good, for the love of something greater than idiotic, STEREOTYPICAL nationalism, will be welcomed in hungary as my brother!!
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That's beautiful. I wish Ungaro could take that advice too

Ernö, I just love you for what you've just said. Ungaro, do u agree or not?

Moldavia and Wallachia was never conquered by the Ottoman Empire. They were forced to submit. Hungary on the other hand was conquered and was ruled as a Turkish province. Only Royal Hungary which was established with the help of Austria secured Hungarian continuity.

[start quote]hahaha are you kidding me? you held the ottomans back for 1000 years? it seems peculiar to me as wallachia and moldova was conquered by the turks before the conquest of constantinople - i.e. before the ottoman empire became an empire...[end quote]

As a matter of facts Vallachia and Moldova were conquered by the turks. The thing that you are denying is that this 2 small states always managed to have a special relation with the Otoman Empire, and allways succeded in not let them conquer us completly. This two countries act like a buffer for more than 1000 years. In some condition, some times humiliating for us. The real thing is that Moldavia and Vallachia never become part of Otoman Empire. They stated as vassal states, but with their own autonomy. If the romanian states would not have done than, (like the bulgarians for example), the gate for Europe would be opened for the turks!

And as I recall you are totaly wrong about the dates of the conquest (but I might be wrong).

moldova become a vassal state in 1514, only 14 years before mohacs

Wallachia (Tara Romaneasca) and Moldova were never actualy conquered, nor part of the Ottoman Empire (Constantinople was conquered in 1453) though we had to pay taxes to maintain this "state of independence". If it had been conquered we would have all been muslims (see the case in Albania were the majority is Muslim and which has been for many centuries a turkish pasalik)

Mircea the Old -->> Alone or in alliance with the neighbouring Christian countries, more often in alliance with the neighbouring voivodes of the other two Romanian principalities, the voivodes of Wallachia Mircea the Old (1386-1418) and Vlad the Impaler (Dracula of the Mediaeval legends, 1456-1462), with Stephen the Great and Holy (1457-1504), the voivode of Moldavia and Iancu of Hunedoara, the voivode of Transylvania (1441-1456) fought heavy defence battles against the Ottoman Turks, delaying their expansion to Central Europe.

Michael the Brave -->> He became voivode of Wallachia in 1593, joined the Christian League - an anti-Ottoman coalition initiated by the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire and he succeeded, following heavy battles (Calugareni, Giurgiu) to actually regain the independence of his country. In 1599-1600 he united for the first time in history all the territories inhabited by Romanians, proclaiming himself "prince of Wallachia, Transylvania and the whole of Moldavia."

Many wars were fought by Austria and Russia against the Ottoman Empire (1710-1711, 1716-1718, 1735-1739, 1768-1774, 1787-1792, 1806-1812, 1828-1829, 1853-1856): those battles took place on Romanian soil, always accompanied by a foreign military occupation, which was often maintained long after the war proper was over, so the Romanian lands endured not only through devastation and irrecoverable losses but also through population displacements and painful territory amputations. So, Austria temporarily annexed Oltenia (1718-1793) and Northern Moldavia that they called Bukovina (1775-1918).


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Winners never quit, quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are idiots...

So what is Romania ? It quits , it changes , it scavenges ?


Anyway... I defend Magyarok , when others try to deny our right , and belittle us . I've said Magyar is a state of mind . I never said Hunyadi was 100% Magyar , but Roman try to make him out to be a great Vlach hero , Hunedoara , no mention that he was Magyar , even his statue in Kolozsvar was defaced , and a romanian flag was put in his hand . What am I supposed to think .

Hey Ungaro,
How about this:
Being Dacian is a state of mind too. And we beleive that we are Dacian so much that in our minds we were. If being Dacian is a state of mind, then we are Dacian. Ever thought of that one Ungaro?

You're obsessed in convincing me your Dacian . You don't need my approval , you believe anything you want . What I was saying was you don't have to be a true Magyar to be Magyar , Petofi Sandor , one of Hungary's greatest poets was Slovak origin ,Hunyadi Janos , part Vlach , You're Magyar for love and pride of the country .

it feels like i am back in the mother land, where ppl discuss issues that are relevent to me and my ppl. issues like the history of transylvania and in who's jurisdiction it should be in. Not issues concerning afghanistan, iraq, north korea, iran and other distant places, which i really don;t give a single **** about.

Anyhow, in response to your little discussion, i don't think it'll matter anymore who owns what, because soon enough the old european borders will disolve and make way for the greatest supper power the planet has ever boar witness to.

So my brothers, both romanian and hungarian alike, don't fight but unite, prosper and live in glory. God bless EUROPE (EU)!!!

One more thing, i really hope that turkey, ukraine and anything east of the black see do not get EU membership. Because they will bring our European great nation to ruins with their islamic and marxist views.

No Ungaro, I was just using YOUR arguments for 'our' cause .

But personally, I don't feel that I have anything in common with people that lived 2000 years ago, and besides populations around here have changed a lot since then!

Vaisva and Anti-Nazi no offense but I do not care for your praise. I would like to see our nations as brothers, but your barbaric nation is killing my kind and it is not acceptible! Means of murder is irrelevant and in a hundred years, "romanizing" of magyars will be as bad as plain murder.

When Szekelyföld is freed I will consider you, but for now only Ungaro is my brother!

Ernö, you cannot argue that assimilation is equal to murder because it simply isn't; and apart from that, no one in Romania is forced to assimilate. People can choose to intergrate and later identify them selves as Romanians, but no one is required to.

The proof of this is plenty. The Gypsies and the Tartars are still there. Even if the Romanian people and the Romanian government consciously tries to assimilate people through peaceful means, those that don't want to adopt a new national consciousness simply won't.

Assimilation is pretty normal and happens in most places where there are minorities. Most Romanians in Hungary were assimilated into the Hungarian realm.

Assimilation often happens in inter-marriages. The new offspring will usually adopt the dominant nationality where he resides. If, for example, Ungaro has a child with a Romanian woman, the chances are high that the child will view his Romanian ancestry as the dominant factor because everything that he'll be able to relate to, will be Romanian. This is nothing horrible. To resist assimilation would mean to not inter-marry with Romanians and resist integration.

I'm certain the Szekely- and Hungarian communities in Romania will survive. Their culture will be preserved. The EU will make it easier for Hungarians to preserve their culture in Romania; not because something will be forced on Romania in the favour of the Szekely, but simply because being a Hungarian in Romania would almost be the same as being a Hungarian living in Hungary.