It is a sad day for the whole Church of Christ, but as what Bro. Erano Manalo, Ka Erdy always quote "To live is Christ, to die is gain". Truly, he lived a life in Christ and spending all of it in the service of God. His memories will stay in our hearts until we meet the Lord.
So we have here 3 beings. They might be God, Son of God and Spirit of God. Or if all 3 are God, then they might be 3 persons out of many persons of the Godhead. We should not think we know everything about God.
when we talk about being,we are talking about person or human being but what we are talking here is there states between the three (the Son ,the Father and the Holy Spirit)...just like the states of matters which is (Solid,Liquid,Gas)which is just one as we called matters.....same analogy between the three (the Son ,the Father and the Holy Spirit)which is just one as God with different states....as matters.......but to call it three person is absurb....hehehhehehe...
as we know nothing is immpossible with God....thats why He can be anything...like a burning bush during the time of Moses...
If the Father, Son and HS are one person, then how can the Son
June 12 2009, 10:21 PM
talk to the Father? And the Father talk to the Son? For example when Jesus was baptized, the Father in heaven was talking to the Son on the earth, and the Holy Spirit was descending on the Son like a dove. So clearly they are separate beings. Now possibly the HS is not a being, but just God's spirit, but the Son is clearly a separate being from God the Father. We don't know if the Son is God too, but he is clearly a different being from the Father. A different person, created by the Father.
On the other hand, Melchizedek is not created, but eternal. So he always existed. He too might be God. But he is not the Son, see Heb. 7:3. And he is not the Father, see Heb. 7:1.
As you said, everything is possible with God. So he could be several persons. He can create more persons within himself. So he might be now many persons. We cannot know. We know God is complex, but we don't know if the complexity involves being more than one person. If the Holy Spirit is a person within the Godhead, then the seven spirits of God mentioned in Revelation can be additional persons within the Godhead. But we don't know if they too are created. Maybe God is making himself more and more complex. But of course nobody can know everything about God. But we do know that the Father, the Son, and Melchizedek are 3 distinct persons. The idea that God is one person in 3 modes as the modalists, like the Oneness Pentecostals, claim, cannot be correct.
As you said, everything is possible with God. So he could be several persons. He can create more persons within himself. So he might be now many persons. We cannot know.
you already said so...that nothing is impossible with God!....and we know that only God has the authority for everything in this world as Jesus which is equal to God with the same authority as God does...
You said we cannot know! ..... the fact that you knew it already...cos as we said nothing is impossible with God,,,,,,it just happened that he came as a human being and lived like an ordinary human being for the earth to be save from our sins....
Hello, one thing we know, Jesus is not equal to the Father.
June 18 2009, 9:14 AM
Jesus himself said in John 14:28 "my Father is greater than I". So when the Father created Jesus, maybe he made him part of the Godhead, we cannot know. But he did not make him equal to himself.
And it was not the Father who came to earth to save us, the Father sent his Son. His Son is Jesus, the Father is never called Jesus in the Bible.
King James Bible
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
American King James Version
If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him.
American Standard Version
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Bible in Basic English
If you had knowledge of me, you would have knowledge of my Father: you have knowledge of him now and have seen him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.
Darby Bible Translation
If ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father, and henceforth ye know him and have seen him.
English Revised Version
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Webster's Bible Translation
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Weymouth New Testament
If you--all of you--knew me, you would fully know my Father also. From this time forward you know Him and have seen Him."
World English Bible
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."
Young's Literal Translation
if ye had known me, my Father also ye would have known, and from this time ye have known Him, and have seen Him.'
Geneva Study Bible
{e} If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(e) It is plain by this verse that to know God and to see God is the same thing. Now whereas he said before that no man saw God at any time, it is to be understood in this way: without Christ, or were it not through Christ, no man could ever see God, nor ever saw God, at any time: for as Chrysostom says, the Son is a very concise and plain setting forth of the Father's nature to us.
People's New Testament
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. The great truth declared is that the way to study God and know him is to know Christ.
From henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. From the cross. On the next morning they would see Christ dying. From the sepulcher would burst forth upon their minds a new revelation of the character and mission of the Son.
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works."
So the Father is in Jesus. He dwells in Jesus. Clearly he made Jesus his main dwelling, so therefore those who saw Jesus, saw the Father through him. But still they are two different beings. Jesus clearly distinguished between himself and the Father, both in this verse, and also in the verse you quoted, verse 7. There he called the Father "my Father". Therefore 2 beings, Jesus and his Father.
Of course..Father is greater than Jesus...in the sense the Father is always a Father and the Son is always the Son.....but equally the same as God the Father and God the Son....bec, both the Father and the Son does the same authority with all his creations on this Earth and one more thing Jesus revealed himself about who is God the Father is...
King James Bible
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
American King James Version
If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him.
American Standard Version
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Bible in Basic English
If you had knowledge of me, you would have knowledge of my Father: you have knowledge of him now and have seen him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.
Darby Bible Translation
If ye had known me, ye would have known also my Father, and henceforth ye know him and have seen him.
English Revised Version
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Webster's Bible Translation
If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Weymouth New Testament
If you--all of you--knew me, you would fully know my Father also. From this time forward you know Him and have seen Him."
World English Bible
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."
Young's Literal Translation
if ye had known me, my Father also ye would have known, and from this time ye have known Him, and have seen Him.'
The Father is called God the Father several times in the Bible. But the Son is never called God the Son. So we have no right to call him God the Son. He might be God, but we cannot be sure, the Bible does not make it clear, we are not supposed to know.
Also I disagree that the Father and the Son have equal authority over the creation. They are not equal, and the Son's authority comes from the Father. For example John 5:27 says the Father gave the Son the power to judge. Or in John 8:28, Jesus says "... I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me".
In fact, the Son is part of the Father's creation. Read Rev. 3:14 in KJV for example "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." Similarly in Col. 1:15 "... the firstborn of all creation". Most Christians claim Jesus always existed, but there is no verse saying that, or saying he was not created. Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15 say he was created. So when the Father has authority over all creation, he has authority over Jesus too.
*its seems like getting abvious now that youre really INC ni Manalo pretending not to be.as you intoduced youreself from the previous forum... saying that youre not a member of them...you look like trying to cut every verses in the bible..like INC does...
Like Col. 1:15 the first born of all creations..but you forgot the continuations of the verses
which is:
The Preeminence of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by [1] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
You wrote: *its seems like getting abvious now that youre really INC ni Manalo pretending not to be.as you intoduced youreself from the previous forum... saying that youre not a member of them...you look like trying to cut every verses in the bible..like INC does...
Tomas: I am not pretending, I studied their doctrine lessons, but then I still disagreed with them on several issues, so I could not join their church. But I value their love of God and Christ.
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You wrote: Like Col. 1:15 the first born of all creations..but you forgot the continuations of the verses which is: The Preeminence of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by [1] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Tomas: The Greek word translated 'by' above is en, which normally means 'in'. Though what is meant by 'in' is not explained. Just like it is not explained what is meant by 'through him'. I believe that when Jesus comes back, he will explain to us all the difficult Bible verses. But it is no proof that Jesus created all things. Note that all things were created 'for him'. Now maybe Jesus created all things for himself, but that seems like a strange way to say that.
Concerning verse 17, maybe Jesus was created before all things in time, as some churches believe. But it might not be saying about time. Maybe it means that he is before all things in rank, not in time.
Stop making this all up from you own bible translations...what you just saw is a simple and understandable and uncomplicated bible translations from many theolgians....whatever versions you have is just from your ownself....a very complicated one.....
and whatever translation you got from me is from well known theologinas and bible translators and it is being used by many well known religions all over the world .....
and whatever you believed is taken from INC ni manalo and Jehovah Witness who makes their own bible translations...with twisted bible translations..
They are all influenced by their beliefs. Jehovah's Witness translators are influenced by their belief that Jesus is not God and was created before the world. Protestant and Catholic translators are influenced by their belief that Jesus is God and was never created. So they all choose a translation that best suits their belief.
What? God the Father is often simply called the Father.
June 25 2009, 1:35 AM
And concerning your second comment, Jesus is called Emmanuel, meaning God with us, but that's natural, God dwells in him. So that does not prove Jesus is God. Just like God dwelled in the Jerusalem temple, but the temple was not God. So Jesus might not be God either. But even if he is God, he is not the Father, but the Father dwells in him, so there are 2 beings, Jesus the dwellling, and Father the dweller.
King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Bible in Basic English
For to us a child has come, to us a son is given; and the government has been placed in his hands; and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty ùGod, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
Geneva Study Bible
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting {k} Father, The Prince of Peace.
(k) The author of eternity, and by whom the Church and every member of it will be preserved forever, and have immortal life.
Wesley's Notes
9:6 For - Having spoken of the glorious light, and joy, and victory of God's people, he now proceeds to shew the ground of it. Us - Unto us Jews, of whom Christ was born, and to whom he was primarily sent. A child - The Messiah by the consent of interpreters, not only Christian, but Jewish: for so the ancient Hebrew doctors understood the place, and particularly the Chaldee paraphrast; although the latter Jews, out of opposition to Christ, wrest it to Hezekiah. Which extravagant conceit, as it hath no foundation in this or any other text of scripture, so it is fully confuted by the following titles, which are such as cannot without blasphemy and nonsense be ascribed to Hezekiah, nor indeed to any mere mortal man, as we shall see. Is born - Or, shall be born, as the prophets generally speak. The government - Of God's people, to whom he is given. Shoulders - Upon him, or in his hands. He mentions shoulders, because great burdens are commonly laid upon men's shoulders. His name - This is not to be taken for a description of his name, but of his glorious nature and qualities. Wonderful counsellor - And so Christ is, because he hath been the counsellor of his church in all ages, and the author and giver of all those excellent counsels delivered not only by the apostles, but also by the prophets, and hath gathered and enlarged, and preserved his church, by admirable counsels and methods of his providence, and, in a word, hath in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, Col 2:3. Mighty God - This title can agree to no man but Christ, who was God as well as man, to whom the title of God or Jehovah is given, both in the Old and New Testament. And it is a true observation, that this Hebrew word El is never used in the singular number, of any creature, but only of the almighty God. The father - The father of eternity. Who, though as man he was then unborn, yet was and is from everlasting to everlasting.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
6. For-the ground of these great expectations,
unto us-for the benefit of the Jews first, and then the Gentiles (compare "unto you," Lu 2:11).
son . given-(Ps 2:7). God's gratuitous gift, on which man had no claim (Joh 3:16; Ro 6:23).
government . upon . shoulder-The ensign of office used to be worn on the shoulder, in token of sustaining the government (Isa 22:22). Here the government on Messiah's shoulder is in marked antithesis to the "yoke and staff" of the oppressor on Israel's "shoulder" (Isa 9:4). He shall receive the kingdom of the earth from the Father, to vindicate it from the misrule of those to whom it was entrusted to hold it for and under the Most High, but who sought to hold it in defiance of His right; the Father asserts His right by the Son, the "Heir of all things," who will hold it for Him (Da 7:13, 14).
name . called-His essential characteristics shall be.
Wonderful-(See on [697]Isa 8:18; Jud 13:18, Margin; 1Ti 3:16).
Counsellor-(Ps 16:7; Ro 11:33, 34; 1Co 1:24; Col 2:3).
mighty God-(Isa 10:21; Ps 24:8; Tit 2:13) Horsley translates: "God the mighty man." "Unto us . God" is equivalent to "Immanuel" (Isa 7:14).
everlasting Father-This marks Him as "Wonderful," that He is "a child," yet the "everlasting Father" (Joh 10:30; 14:9). Earthly kings leave their people after a short reign; He will reign over and bless them for ever [Hengstenberg].
Prince of Peace-(See on [698]Isa 9:5; Ge 49:10; Shiloh, "The Tranquillizer"). Finally (Ho 2:18). Even already He is "our peace" (Lu 2:1
Some translations do not say name, but that is not accurate. The Hebrew text says 'his name'.
The best translation of this verse that I have seen is from the AJV (American Jewish Version). It goes like this: "... And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom". So it is a long name. In a footnote the name is translated "Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace". It is not the only long name in Isaiah, look at verse 8:3, that has the name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
Also it is not the only name in the Bible that contains the word God, many Israelites had God as part of their names. Some had also the word Father as part of their name. So this is no proof that Jesus is God, or Father, or eternal.
making up your on version of the bible....what you saw is a translation in many theologians and all came out the same expalations or interpretations...and for whatever translations you are using is just came from youself or yourmind...from one person like YOU....hehehehehe
The translation I quoted from for this verse is the American Jewish Version, published by the Jewish Publication Society of America, in 1917. It is a well-respected translation in Judaism. It was used in the book The Pentateuch and the Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, late chief rabbi of the British Empire. Obviously he was a very important rabbi, and he used that translation. One thing I like about that translation is that it consistently translates the name of the most holy musical instrument, the ram's horn, called shophar in Hebrew, as 'horn', while Christian translations are very inconsistent here, sometimes saying 'horn' and sometimes 'trumpet', even though the Bible also has silver trumpets, which should be always distinguished from the horn. But no translation is perfect. And Hertz's commentary is sometimes biased against Christianity. But then all commentaries are flawed, because we are all flawed. Only Jesus is infallible.
your going to far....all i knew about Jusdaism is that they believed that Jesus Christ is a false propets ....Jesus was born through normal birth not virgin birth.......they dont believed about Jusus Christ second coming....and they dont believed about the New Testaments...and they said its not useful...
So pls dont ever think that i knew nothing about Judaism......
It is impossible for even the best Christian to produce an unbiased translation. Only the originals are inspired, all translations have faults, even though most translators try their best. Even most Jewish translators try their best.
Belief in Christ's resurrection is mandatory for salvation. But being unsaved does not necessarily mean their translation of the Bible is stupid. It can be very scholarly. Sometimes it is biased, but then Christian Bible translations are biased too. It is hard to translate the Bible without putting their beliefs into it.
a mixed nuts.....you cant not tell which side are you....what is you point of using Judaism...since they believed that Jesus Christ is a false propets....and they dont believed on his second coming...and many other beliefs..
But as I said above, I respect all translations, they can be very scholarly. Therefore sometimes a translation by an unsaved Jew can be better than a translation by a saved Christian, at least on some secondary issues.
anayway,since what you saw about Isaiah 9:6 from a previous forum is a translations from different version and all came out THE SAME...SO WHAT CAN YOU SAY>>>>>you just deny it coz it conflict your belief who JESUS WAS>>>>>>>>WHO IS GOD......hehehehehehehe
My point is that even Christian translations are biased.
July 4 2009, 1:57 AM
Concerning Is. 9:6, some translations do not even have the word 'name'. That is how far they insist it is not a name. Some translations have 'the' before 'mighty God', and before 'everlasting Father', even though there is no 'the' here in Hebrew.
you just kepp saying that coz you cant believed the truth who Jesus was...as explai explained in Isaiah 9:6 in many differrent translations...as i noticed you in this forum...
We can know some things about Jesus for sure. Some things that we have to know to be saved, like that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, Lord, Light of the World, that hecame in the flesh, died for our sins, was raised by God the third day, and then was seen by over 500 witnesses.
Some things we know for sure, although they are not necessary for salvation, but they are clearly stated in the Bible. Like that he was the Son of Man, the most important prophet, born of a virgin, and had power to do miracles and make perfect speeches.
But some things are unknown, because we are not supposed to know, see Luke 10:22 "No one knows who the Son is except the Father". So even the apostles did not know. They included clearly things like whether he is God, and whether he preexisted.
Stop making to many excuses!Just admit that your....
July 19 2009, 8:54 PM
mind is two sided...Like a mixed nuts...too many conflicts!!!!!
Jesus is Truly God!!!!!!!!!!!Truly GOD!
JESUS — That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
He is the only almighty, so that proves it is God who said that. The verse does not say that Jesus said that. We are not supposed to know if Jesus is God, so the truth is hidden behind ambiguous verses. We do know that there is no verse calling Jesus the Almighy, so we cannot know if Jesus is almighty like the Father. Likewise we cannot know if the Holy Spirit is almighty, or the 7 Spirits of God, or Melchizedek. This is all hidden from us. We should know what is clear in the Bible, but not what is unclear on purpose, that is not for us to know, so let us not be divisive about such issues.
thats why it was called (The book of revelations of Jesus Christ)
continue reading Revelations 1:17-18.....It was Jesus speaking...He was the first and the last..he who lives,ans was dead and now alive forevermore....
The Father is called the Father 4 times in the book of Revelation, so Jesus is not the only one mentioned. The first time 'Father' is used is in verse 1:6 which says "... priests to serve his God and Father...". So the Father is Christ's God.
But God is already mentioned earlier. In verse 1 it says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him...". That verse distinguishes between Christ and God. Then verse 2 says "...the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ". So that verse not only distinguishes between Jesus and God, it also makes it clear that Revelation has not only the testimony of Jesus but also the word of God. So verse 8 does not have to be the testimony of Jesus but simply the word of God himself. Verses 4-5 say "...from him who is and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness...". Notice that passage distinguishes between the one who is and who was and is to come, and Jesus, so it's two beings, the first one being God, the second one Jesus. And about "who was and who is to come", that sounds a lot like Alpha and Omega. So in verse 8 the Alpha and Omega can be the Father rather than Jesus.