OMGDecember 20 2009 at 9:56 PM
|Ken Joyce |
Response to Reading a book
And with respect Michael, this is really getting silly. You asked for examples. FORTITUDE, TINDELL, JUPITER and a bevy of other successful deception plans. HOW? Turned XX agents provided true and false evidence to their superiors. What did you not understand about that????? I am sure I never said ( However if I did by mistake I stand corrected ) that these agents provided any information. They were LATER used to supply the ENEMY with information. Information provided TO THEM by British Intelligence. As for the article I provided, you will note that the author admits that techniques used DO amount to torture. Of the 120 agents turned Michael, many were turned via one or other form of mental torture as admitted to in the article. Did I not also state that in fact sleep deprivation and other forms of mental torture usually result in some form of physical torture. Many known techniques used for sleep deprivation involve long periods of physical stress and pain. Your statement that double agents could not be trusted is also silly. All these agents were firmly in the grip of SIS. Whether their superiors believed everything they sent, that is another matter. However ULTRA proves that the Germans swallowed what they needed to swallow. Contribution? they directly persuaded the enemy to think that the Allies were planning to invade Norway, North through Iraq, Cherbourg, Southern France etc. in order to confuse the enemy and have its forces spread out over wide areas rather than being concentrated in any given area waiting for an allied invasion. A big contribution to victory. Now if you don't understand that, I can't help you.
As for Dirty fighting. What did you not understand about my answer? The whole organization of SOE and other aspects of SIS were in fact fighting the enemy in many ways contrary to the Geneva Convention. Dropping personnel in plain clothes to blow up rail yards and shoot at enemy convoys is contrary to that convention and therefore those taking part were not protected by it. So in fact all early SOE operations were mounted contrary to the convention. That can be considered fighting a "DIRTY" war OR as SOE themselves put it "Ungentlemanly Conduct". What would you call it? Not sure why that is hard to understand. In addition, as stated several times now, supporting forces that do not operate along the lines of the Convention is also considered a no-no. The securing of Southern France, Aiding in the arrival of forces in the North, Providing a path through Burma for XIV Army's drive on Rangoon and the clearing of Japanese from modern day Borneo. Just a few contributions.
I listed the books that both you and Lockard should read in order that you can understand the contribution of SOE/SIS and LCS to victory on the ground, in the air and at sea. Again, if you don't understand the above, I really can't help you.