Does anyone know when the color of the denims changed from brown to green? I have several green examples with pleated pockets but only one with the date legible -- Feb 1941.

I have a brown example in storage but the label is completely illegible.

Clearly both colors exist in the early pattern with pleated pockets. I've only seen the final, economy pattern in green.

Also curious as to how many folks might have examples of the brown denims?

Sorry. I posted before I was done typing.

I'm researching several aspects of the early denims. Firstly, looking to see if the 1939/40 productions were all brown? If so, then presumably the BEF in France would likely have been kitted out with the early production batches and therefore predominantly brown would have been available?

Secondly, looking for the 'smoking gun' document specifically changing the colr to green. I've looked for years and haven't found any reference to color of fabric for the denims. It just strikes me as unlikely that a change from brown to green just happened.

Chris, I own both brown and green British Denim BD and my belief is that the brown came first, followed by the green; although at some point during manufacture you get both being produced side by side. Brown denims were issued in the UK in the 1930s for work wear and I suspect that this lead to the brown demin BDs. Some of the brown denims were almost pink, although I do not own any in this shade.

I have no idea what would have caused the change from brown to green and I have no idea if the change was even reported through the usual ordnance channels.

It is too bad the potential sources of all of these British uniform details are possibly sitting in as of yet untapped archives in the UK. It would be very nice to find out who all of the manufactures were as well as the suppliers of the cotton and who wove the material. Also, someone had to supply the buttons and the metal fitting, who had those contracts? I would not be surprised to learn that some of the materials that went into these uniforms were coming from North America.

It may be significant to note that camouflage paint colours changed from brown and earth shades to green in the midwar period as well. A longshot WAG is that it may have had to do with the availability of pigments of some type.

Remember the phrase "Lucky Strike Green has gone to war"?

As near as I can tell, denims didn't arrive until a year or so after the woolen BD was introduced. So I would presume that their use as a work coverall would likely be sometime after 1939. They didn't exist prior to woolen BD insofar as I know as they would have been ridiculous if worn over the old 4-pocket battledress uniform.

I have several examples of the green denims made in the original pattern with pocket pleats and the earliest example I've personally handled was 1941. The final pattern was a year later obviously following the economy measures of the woolen blouse.

The color change continues to baffle me. As noted, at some late point the brown and green were around at the same time and sharing the same early pattern. One can only surmise that the change occurred in some official capacity. From the RAF side of things, aircraft schemes changed from green and brown camo to green and grey camo around the same time (1941) but I wouldn't put much faith in the two having any relation to each other.

These were never intended as combat garments so their color would have little relationship to concealment in the field and brown would seem a more logical choice to hiding dirt/stains than the green versions.

If anyone could post images of their brown denim blouses, I'd like to see them. Particularly if their labels are intact. I have one example in storage and I've not gone digging for it as I know the label is completely illegible.

Whatever they were intended for, the Denims were worn in the field as combat wear in hot weather or to augment the wool BD in cold weather.

I thought the Milifax webpage on Canadian military vehicles mentioned the reason for the camouflage paint switch; it seems to me that it had something to do with pigments, as I posted above. It would seem a likely reason for the colour change in clothing as well, whether or not those pigments used for dying clothing were the same as those used in paints.

Incidentally, Khaki Drill, which was intended for use as combat dress, was a somewhat bright golden yellow shade (certainly in relation to British items I've seen - Ed can provide clarification I'm sure) when produced in Canada. I'm not sure the camouflage properties weren't at some level secondary considerations.

Michael,
I agree with you. Denims were certainly seen in wear on frontline service. My comment was based on the original intent that the denims were intended as a protective overlayer to the then-new battledress uniform.

I hope we'll see some images from those who possess examples in brown. I've seen a few very worn example that I believe to be green but with owners proclaiming them to be brown ones that faded to a strange olive-brown tone. Entirely possible as the green ones seem to fade to a muted greenish-grey.

The change over from green to brown paint was due partly to the availability of whatever chemical was used to make green paint "green". The worlds main supply came from the Pacific region of the world. When the Japanese overran the Pacific the supply was suddenly cut off or drasticaly reduced. Hence when you see the change over of Green vehicles to Brown in 1942/43, it was mainly due to this. An interesting side bar is that the green and brown shades on their own are near impossible to differentiate on black and white photos.

I have no idea if this plays into the change with the denims or not but it does help to answer you question Michael about the vehicle paints.

Here are some images of my brown Denim BD Tunic.

Ed,
Thanks for posting the photos of your jacket. Superb example!

Compared to my green example (with pleated pockets), the only difference I can see (beyond th ecolor, of course) is the reference on the label to Denim No. 2. Wondering if this is the official reference to the green color or simply one of several potential fabric weights?





photos via WD Militaria

Ed's Denim is clearly labeled "54" in ink -- indicating it's a 1954 production run. AFAIK, by 1954, this (the "BD" cut) was pretty much the only style issued.

Your denim is labelled 1940. Again, AFAIK, there were at this time TWO styles of of denim over garments of this type -- those patterned after battledress, and the ones patterned after the earlier service dress.

Just a guess, but perhaps that is the reason your's have a differenciating model number, and Ed's don't.

Took a closer look at the photo of Ed's Denim -- that mark is more like "544", which MAY indicate May 1944, or it may have nothing to do with teh date at all. Mea Culpa if that latter posisbility is true.

However, if his IS a later production run, my originla point might holod true -- once the "SD" styled denims were obsoleted out of production, there is no real point in differenciating between them, especially since it is extremely unlikely that those still issued SD would be performing fatigue duties in them.

Thats and excellent example of early war brown denims that Ed provided photos of. While the tag has no clear date of manufature, the "P" on the ink stamps indicates that that pair was issued or at least placed on hand for issue in 1941. So they were produced either that year or earlier.

Ed's denim, as pointed out, is textbook original issue denim.

The white calico labels usually bear the month/year of delivery -- either printed or inked-on later (usually a purple stamp). Missing dates on early garments is common.

The black in stamps are War Department and inspection stamps. 544 is coincidence, not a date. I have a green one with 725 on it. 1941 manufacture.

There's really no dispute/question over whether the initial production was brown. My question has been at what point did green make its appearance? Considering the brown denims came out in 1939, I've been curious why the changeover to green so soon afterwards?

Chris, nice green denim BD, I don't own a green example dated that early. Note that it is the same compny who manufactured yours and mine denim BD examples. What surprises me is that the UK, who was on such a tight wartime economy, was manufacturing so many lines of material. It almost looks like for a while, the brown and gren denim were being produced at the same time - it would be nice to know the reason. The same thing occurs with the anti-gas clothing with both camouflaged and green examples being produced similaneously. The full story on British clothing production would be a fascinating one.

Ed,
That's been my question as well. I would suppose that any changeover would occur as existing stocks of fabric were used up -- explaining the two different fabrics so close to each other, date-wise.

The actual denim fabrics appear identical in weave/weight.

The green jacket shown isn't mine. It's a photo I saved some time ago. I have one of these but the date is washed out -- just a faint trace of the purple stamp.

David brings up a point about the black inspection/acceptance stamps. I don't know how to decypher these. I would think that every inspector or depot had their own stamp? Does anyone have a way to decypher them? I'm positive they have no relationship to month/year since my 1941 example has "725" on it. No idea what the upper letter represents. My '41 denim has an "A".

I have been looking for this information as I have it somewhere in the house. From what I have been able to determine, the letter code represents the year and the number is either the inspector or the inspection location. The letter code is alphabetical but there was a change from the Great War to the Second War. I am trying to find the primary source information I have on this.

My Uncle before joining the Army in WWII worked at Gibbard Furniture Factory in Napanee. One of the items the company manufactured was wooden ammunition boxes and he has told me that there was a government inspector who worked at the factory checking the boxes as they went out. So perhaps each inspector or a factory had a code.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173/message/1213583300/An+item%27s+Issue+or+Acceptance+Date+Into+Service

Link above is another thread were I posted the acceptance codes that I knew. That was almost a year ago and I still haven't found the original source material.

David:

I was looking for that thread, many thanks. I think I may be able to add to it.

ED

Heck, a smiliar thing occurred with US production (the "khaki" vs. "olive drab" food fight) -- and you can find examples of original, unissued unforms and webbing with two different shades in the same item -- like ammo pouches with the main body in sand colored khaki, and flaps in dark OD green.

When you change over, you do NOT throw out the already paid for stocks on hand, unless you're changing over because the old stuff doesn't work at all. You continue to use it up, and unless color affects function, you'll be running both at the same time for quite some time, especially if you're trying to ramp up production.

New factories will likely end up using less of teh old stock, becuase they don't have any left over in stores from prior runs; older ffactories may well still be pulling old stock out for months. Plus you don't necessarily run out of everything in old stock at the same time -- thus you'll sometimes see "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Kit" stuff being run up. When you're in a war to the death, nobody cares -- and is about as likely to keep careful track of such meaningless (to them) information.

I'm curious to see if the reference to "Denim No. 2" on the label of the green jacket is descriptor for the green fabric or if it's simply a reference to the weave/weight such as "Drill Number 2, Drab" which describes the lining material on the woolen BD uniforms.

I'll haul out some of my final pattern denims (without pleated pockets) and see if Denim No. 2 still features on the label.