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DAVID HEALY **NEW WITHDRAWAL PROTOCOL - uploaded to internet - file section SSRIcrusaders

June 30 2009 at 9:48 PM
Anonymous 

New file uploaded to SSRI-Crusaders
Hello,This email message is a notification to let you know thata file has been uploaded to the Files area of the SSRI-Crusadersgroup.File : /Healy_Withdrawal_june_09.pdfUploaded by : jeremy9282
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SSRI-Crusaders/post?postID=l7TzLibR3hH_RIaQFez0rJ7MC76BM8x4SRIHKFA48SqWTa8XJQjHsIdHvQimdqixmazBRduwMQHTMGV9aJ1Q0Z2USpv5>Description : HALTING SSRIs DAVID HEALY MD FRCPsych -


http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SSRI-Crusaders/message/34264



 
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AuthorReply
Anonymous

FOI ? does MHRA endorse Dr Healy's new SSRI withdrawal guide

June 30 2009, 9:49 PM 

FOI ? does MHRA endorse Dr Healy's new SSRI withdrawal guide

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/SSRI-Crusaders/message/34266

Mr S Gregor, Director, Communications Division
Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency
Market Towers, 1 Nine Elms Lane
London SW8 5NQ
Simon.gregor@mhra.gsi.gov.UK;

Dear Simon Gregor


I attach pdf file
HALTING SSRIs DAVID HEALY MD FRCPsych
dated 20 06 2009
which I have obtained from an open internet source thus -

http://fiddaman.blogspot.com/ href="http://fiddaman.blogspot.com/">http://fiddaman.blogspot.com/ - http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/5/6/1899375/Healy_Withdrawal_june_09.pdf href="http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/5/6/1899375/Healy_Withdrawal_june_09.pdf">http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/5/6/1899375/Healy_Withdrawal_june_09.pdf

Quoting your new best friend PPE consultee Mr Fiddaman -

"I'm pleased to announce that David has now met with them and laid a new, revised withdrawal protocol on the table."

I note that the Healy paper was presented to you very recently at a date/venue not stated by Mr Fiddaman.
However I would like to draw your attention to page 6 & the text therein -

"SSRIs are well-known to impair sexual functioning. The conventional view
has been that once the drug is stopped functioning comes back to normal.
There are indicators however that this may not be true for everyone. If sexual
functioning remains abnormal this should be brought to the attention of your
physician who will hopefully report it.

Withdrawal may reveal other continuing problems similar to the ongoing
sexual dysfunction problem such as memory or other problems. It is
important to report these. The best way to find a remedy is to bring the
problem to the attention of as many people as possible."


Please advise me under the FOI or other working arrangements PPE i.e. patient public engagement

(a) does the MHRA endorse Dr Healy's attached paper?

(b) does the MHRA NOT endorse Dr Healy's attached paper - if not why not?



(c) does the MHRA endorse Dr Healy's position re memory, which appears to me to say that for some people at least that they have ongoing problems with their memory after completion of SSRI withdrawal?

(d)does the MHRA NOT endorse Dr Healy's position re memory, which appears to me to say that for some people at least that they have ongoing problems with their memory after completion of SSRI withdrawal - - if not why not?


Regards

Jeremy Bryce
xxx xxxxx xx
xx xxxxx xxxx

 
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Anonymous

does the MHRA endorse Dr Healy's revised withdrawal protocol ?

June 30 2009, 11:16 PM 

Please advise me under the FOI or other working arrangements PPE i.e. patient public engagement

(a) does the MHRA endorse Dr Healy's attached paper?

(b) does the MHRA NOT endorse Dr Healy's attached paper - if not why not?


 
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Anonymous

does the MHRA accept Healy's position that some people have memory problems post ssri?

June 30 2009, 11:17 PM 

(c) does the MHRA endorse Dr Healy's position re memory, which appears to me to say that for some people at least that they have ongoing problems with their memory after completion of SSRI withdrawal?

(d)does the MHRA NOT endorse Dr Healy's position re memory, which appears to me to say that for some people at least that they have ongoing problems with their memory after completion of SSRI withdrawal - - if not why not?


Regards

 
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Anonymous

DAVID HEALY **NEW WITHDRAWAL PROTOCOL - uploaded to internet - copy text from PDF

July 1 2009, 9:26 AM 

HALTING SSRIs

DAVID HEALY MD FRCPsych

N WALES DEPT of PSYCHOLOGICAL MEDICINE

SSRIs

SSRI stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. This does not mean

these drugs are selective to the serotonin system or that they are in some

sense pharmacologically clean. It means they have little effects on the

norepinephrine/noradrenaline system. There are 8 Serotonin reuptake

inhibitors on the market:

UK Trade Name US Trade Name

Fluoxetine Prozac Prozac

Paroxetine Seroxat Paxil

Sertraline Lustral Zoloft

Citalopram Cipramil Celexa

Escitalopram Cipralex Lexapro

Fluvoxamine Faverin Luvox

Venlafaxine Effexor Efexor

Duloxetine Cymbalta Cymbalta

Venlafaxine in doses up to 150mg is an SSRI. Over 150 mg it also inhibits

noradrenaline reuptake. Duloxetine is a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor but

not selective to the serotonin system.

WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS

SSRI withdrawal symptoms break down into two groups.

The first group may be unlike anything you have had before:

Dizziness when I turn to look at something I feel my head lags behind.

Electric Head - which includes a number of strange brain sensations

its almost like the brain is having a version of goose pimples

Electric Shock-like Sensations Zaps like being prodded with a cattle prod

Other Strange Tingling or Painful Sensations

Nausea, Diarrhoea, Flatulence

Headache

Muscle Spasms/ Tremor

Dreams, including Agitated Dreams or other Vivid Dreams

Agitation

Hallucinations or other visual or auditory disturbances

Sensitivity to noises or visual stimuli

The second group are symptoms which may lead you or your physician

to think that all you have are features of your original problem. These include:

Depression and Anxiety these are the commonest 2 withdrawal symptoms

Labile Mood emotions swinging wildly

Irritability

Confusion

Fatigue/ Malaise Flu-like Feelings

Insomnia or Drowsiness

 

Sweating

Feelings of Unreality

Feelings of being Hot or Cold

Change of Personality

More generally there is an intolerance of stress.

Any difficulties present may wax and wane and this can be demoralising.

IS THIS WITHDRAWAL?

There are three ways to distinguish SSRI withdrawal from the nervous

problems that the SSRI might have been used to treat in the first instance.

First if the problem begins immediately on reducing or halting a dose or

begins within hours or days or perhaps even weeks of so doing then it is more

likely to be a withdrawal problem. If the original problem has been treated and

you are doing well, then on discontinuing treatment no new problems should

show up for several months or indeed several years.

Second if the nervousness or other odd feelings that appear on reducing or

halting the SSRI (sometimes after just missing a single dose) clear up when

you are put back on the SSRI or the dose is put back up, then this also points

towards a withdrawal problem rather than a return of the original illness.

When original illnesses return, they take a long time to respond to treatment.

The relatively immediate response of symptoms on discontinuation to the

reinstitution of treatment points towards a withdrawal problem.

Third the features of withdrawal may overlap with features of the nervous

problem for which you were first treated - both may contain elements of

anxiety and of depression. However withdrawal will also often contain new

features not in the original state such as pins and needles, tingling sensations,

electric shock sensations, pain and a general flu-like feeling.

Before starting to withdraw, it should be noted that many people will have no

problems on withdrawing. Some will have minimal problems, which may peak

after a few days before diminishing. Symptoms can remain for some weeks

or months. Others will have greater problems, which can be helped by the

management plan outlined below.

Finally however there will be a group of people who are simply unable to stop

whatever approach they take. Some others will be able to stop but will find

problems persisting for months or years afterwards. It is important to

recognise this latter possibility in order to avoid punishing yourself. Specialist

help may make a difference for some people in these two groups, if only to

provide possible antidotes to attenuate the problems of ongoing SSRIs such

as loss of libido.

 

HOW TO WITHDRAW

If there are any hints of problems on withdrawal from SSRIs, the management

of withdrawal is something to be done in consultation with your physician. You

may wish to show this to your doctor. Over-rapid withdrawal may be

medically hazardous, particularly in older persons.

Many doctors suggest you withdraw by taking one pill every other day for a

few weeks before stopping. There is no guideline that advocates this or

evidence that supports it and the approach is misguided.

One of the first steps to consider is getting a liquid formulation of your

antidepressant. This can be done by asking your doctor to approach the local

primary care pharmacist who can make an application to one of the specialist

companies such as Martindales or Rosemount that can make up a liquid

formulation of almost any antidepressant you might be on see below.

There are 2 theories about what leads to dependence and withdrawal that

dictate slightly differing management plans.

One theory is that the relatively short half life of paroxetine and venlafaxine

make these two drugs more problematic. This leads to a withdrawal strategy

that advocates switching from paroxetine or other drugs to fluoxetine.

The second is that paroxetine and venlafaxine are relatively more potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors and this theory leads to a switch to less potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as citalopram or one of the older

antidepressants such as imipramine.

Either approach is facilitated by having access to treatment in liquid form.

Paroxetine, fluoxetine and imipramine come in liquid form and anyone having

difficulties with withdrawal should insist on access to the liquid form of

treatment or either these or a special formulation of the drug they are on.

The Half-Life Approach

1A Convert the dose of SSRI you are on to an equivalent dose of Prozac

liquid. Seroxat/Paxil 20mg, Efexor 75mg, Cipramil/Celexa 20mgs,

Lustral/Zoloft 50mgs are equivalent to 20mg of Prozac liquid. Or 40 mg of

Paxil/Seroxat to 40 mg Prozac. The rationale for this is that Prozac has a very

long half-life, which helps to minimise withdrawal problems. The liquid form

permits the dose to be reduced more slowly than can be done with pills.

Some people may become agitated on switching from Paxil/Seroxat to

fluoxetine in which cases one option is take a short course of diazepam until

this settles down. Whether this agitation is caused by fluoxetine or because

for some people the substitution simply cannot be made may be difficult to

determine. If the agitation gets better when the dose of fluoxetine is reduced

 

then its more likely to be caused by fluoxetine, if it gets worse, then it is more

likely to be linked to withdrawal.

1B A further option is to convert to a liquid form of whatever drug you are

on. Many people cannot change easily from paroxetine tablets to fluoxetine

and switching to paroxetine liquid may do the trick instead.

1C Yet another option is to change from paroxetine to a mixture of half the

previous dose in the form of paroxetine and the other half in the form of

fluoxetine, and then to reduce the dose of paroxetine gradually.

The Reduced Potency Approach

1A Taking this approach, the best option is to change to Imipramine

100mg. This comes in 25mg and 10 mg tablets and also in liquid form. It is

the first serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It is much less potent than the SSRIs,

and has been used widely for children for a range of problems.

1B As above another option is to have a mixture of 50 mg imipramine with

10 mg paroxetine or fluoxetine.

Next Steps

2 Stabilise on one of these options for up to 4 weeks before proceeding.

3 For uncomplicated withdrawal, it may be possible to then drop the dose

by a quarter.

4 If there has been no problem with step 2, a week or two later, the dose

can be reduced to half of the original.

Alternatively if there has been a problem with the original drop, the

dose should be reduced by 1 mg amounts in weekly or two weekly

decrements.

5 From a dose of fluoxetine 10mgs liquid or tablets or imipramine 10mg

tablets or liquid, consider reducing by 1mg every week over the course of

several weeks - or months if need be. ( a syringe is helpful in reducing the

dose evenly).

6 If there are difficulties at any particular stage the answer is to wait at

that stage for a longer period of time before reducing further

 

Complexities of Withdrawal

Some people are extremely sensitive to withdrawal effects. If there are

problems with step 1 above, return to the original dose and from there reduce

as tolerated.

Withdrawal and dependence are physical phenomena. But some people can

get understandably phobic about withdrawal particularly if the experience is

literally shocking. If you think you have become phobic, a clinical psychologist

or nurse therapist may be able to help manage any phobic element.

Self-help support groups can be invaluable. Join one. If there is none nearby,

consider setting one up. There will be lots of others with a similar problem.

An alternate approach is to substitute St Johns Wort or an antihistamine for

the SSRI, as these both have serotonin reuptake inhibiting properties. If a

dose of 3 tablets of St Johns Wort is tolerated instead of the SSRI, this can

then be reduced slowly by one pill per fortnight or even per month or by

halving tablets.

If withdrawal problems appear to ease off and then come back, it is worth

checking whether this was because the affected person was co-incidentally

treating themselves with something like St Johns Wort or an antihistamine.

Some people for understandable reasons may prefer this approach. But it

needs to be noted that St Johns Wort and the antihistamines come with their

own set of problems.

While SSRI withdrawal may not be a problem for some people, for others it

can last months and indeed years possibly 2-4 years. Even if it endures for

months/years, it does seem likely to clear up in the long run.

In the case of enduring problems, being active is probably important. An

enduring problem is likely to be underpinned by some brain change that can

only be reversed by encouraging activity in that brain area through physical

and mental activity. Gentle but regular exercise and involvement in activities

rather than withdrawal seems more likely to stimulate silenced brain areas

back into life.

If it seems impossible to withdraw and the option is to stabilise on an SSRI for

the foreseeable future, at this point there is no clear indicator as to whether

there is a best SSRI to stabilise on. In terms of ongoing problems paroxetine,

sertraline, venlafaxine and duloxetine are associated with a high frequency of

problems on withdrawal and on this basis seem poor fall-back options.

Fluoxetine is associated with proportionally the greatest frequency of reports

of drug seeking or addictive behaviours, and is problematic from this point of

view. By default this leaves citalopram as a fallback option

FOLLOW-UP

Companies have tried to label withdrawal problems as discontinuation

problems or discontinuation syndromes, because of the negative perceptions

linked to the term withdrawal.

The problems posed by withdrawal may stabilise to the point where you can

get on with life. But whether it is or is not possible to withdraw, it is important

to note ongoing problems and to get your physician or someone to report

them if possible to the appropriate bodies such as the FDA/MHRA. New

health problems such as diabetes or raised blood lipid levels may have a link

to prior or ongoing treatment. If your doctor wont report these problems, you

should if you live in a place where this can be done.

There are clear effects on the heart from SSRIs and from some there are

likely to be cardiac problems during the post-withdrawal period. Such

problems if they occur should be noted and recorded. SSRIs can also

increase the risks of haemorrhage, especially if combined with aspirin, and of

fractures.

SSRIs are well-known to impair sexual functioning. The conventional view

has been that once the drug is stopped, functioning comes back to normal.

There are indicators however that this may not be true for everyone. If sexual

functioning remains abnormal, this should be brought to the attention of your

physician, who will hopefully report it.

Withdrawal may reveal other continuing problems, similar to the ongoing

sexual dysfunction problem, such as memory or other problems. It is

important to report these. The best way to find a remedy is to bring the

problem to the attention of as many people as possible.

Pregnancy

The single most important group who need to be aware of all these issues are

women of child-bearing years. A very large number of pregnancies happen in

an unplanned fashion and are several weeks advanced before the woman is

aware of the situation. SSRIs, and paroxetine in particular, are now clearly

linked to a number of problems in pregnancy, among which are an increased

frequency of birth defects, an increased rate of miscarriage, premature birth,

low birth weight, a neonatal withdrawal syndrome and pulmonary

hypertension in the newborn infant.

One of the biggest problems of SSRI dependence involves women who are

on treatment and unable to stop who wish to become pregnant. Getting off an

SSRI at present seems more difficult for women than men, even with the

incentive of wishing to become pregnant

1. Rosemont Pharmaceuticals (Tel 0113 244 1999)

These prepare large batches (so may be cheaper) for:

Amitriptyline 10mg/5ml, 25mg/5ml, 50mg/5ml

Lofepramine 70mg/5ml

Mirtazapine 15mg/1ml

Venlafaxine 75mg/5ml

Sertraline 50mg/5ml

Dosulepin 25mg/5ml, 75mg/5ml

2. Cardinal Health, Martindale (Tel 0800 137 627)

This manufacturer will usually prepare what you ask for, so if the antidepressant isn't in the

above list opt for this.

Large chain pharmacies like Boots or Rowlands may have their own external supplier who

they may prefer to use as they have a contract with them


 
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Anonymous

Healy seems to say there are people left with permanent memory problems

July 1 2009, 9:28 AM 

SSRIs are well-known to impair sexual functioning. The conventional view

has been that once the drug is stopped, functioning comes back to normal.

There are indicators however that this may not be true for everyone. If sexual

functioning remains abnormal, this should be brought to the attention of your

physician, who will hopefully report it.

Withdrawal may reveal other continuing problems, similar to the ongoing

sexual dysfunction problem, such as memory or other problems. It is

important to report these. The best way to find a remedy is to bring the

problem to the attention of as many people as possible.


 
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Anonymous

Ok Dave - so we report this memory problem to the MHRA & they do what?

July 1 2009, 9:30 AM 

Withdrawal may reveal other continuing problems, similar to the ongoing

sexual dysfunction problem, such as memory or other problems. It is

important to report these. The best way to find a remedy is to bring the

problem to the attention of as many people as possible.


 
 

 
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Anonymous

short half life of paroxetine and venlafaxine make these two drugs more problematic

July 1 2009, 9:48 AM 

HOW TO WITHDRAW

If there are any hints of problems on withdrawal from SSRIs, the management

of withdrawal is something to be done in consultation with your physician. You

may wish to show this to your doctor. Over-rapid withdrawal may be

medically hazardous, particularly in older persons.

Many doctors suggest you withdraw by taking one pill every other day for a

few weeks before stopping. There is no guideline that advocates this or

evidence that supports it and the approach is misguided.

One of the first steps to consider is getting a liquid formulation of your

antidepressant. This can be done by asking your doctor to approach the local

primary care pharmacist who can make an application to one of the specialist

companies such as Martindales or Rosemount that can make up a liquid

formulation of almost any antidepressant you might be on see below.

There are 2 theories about what leads to dependence and withdrawal that

dictate slightly differing management plans.

One theory is that the relatively short half life of paroxetine and venlafaxine

make these two drugs more problematic. This leads to a withdrawal strategy

that advocates switching from paroxetine or other drugs to fluoxetine.

The second is that paroxetine and venlafaxine are relatively more potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors and this theory leads to a switch to less potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as citalopram or one of the older

antidepressants such as imipramine.


 
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Anonymous

OK Dave but half life of venlafaxine is much shorter than paroxetine

July 1 2009, 9:50 AM 

Antidepressant Half Life Information

 

  Sep-01
drug generic name company type max mg/day Half life, hrs
Anafranil clomipramine Novartis TCAD 250 21(19-37)
Asendis amoxapine Wyeth TCAD 300 no info
Cipramil Lundbeck SSRI 60 36 (28 - 42)
Elderly patients may metabolise more slowly and need lower dose
Edronax Pharmacia SNRI 12 8
Efexor venlafaxine Wyeth SSNRI 375 5 (5 to 11)
    "    XL Wyeth SSNRI 225 20 to 22
Faverin Solvay SSRI 300 21
Lentizol amitriptyline hyd. Pfizer 200 15 (10 - 28)
Nortriptyline, the most important metabolite, has a half-life of 36 hours (18-60 hours). 
It has a polymorphically controlled metabolism (debrisoquine metabolism). In subjects
with a slow metabolism (in Switzerland about 9% of the population) high therapeutic
 doses can lead to toxic plasma levels very quickly.
Lustral, sertraline Pfizer SSRI 200 26 (22 to 33)
Prothiaden dothiepin hyd. Knoll TCAD 150 19 to 33
Prozac fluoxetine Dista SSRI 7 to 9 DAYS
Approx. 7% of people have difficulty metabolising fluoxetine and it then increases rapidly
Seroxat paroxetine GSK SSRI 50 21 to 26
Sinequan doxepin Pfizer TCAD 100x3 p.d. 28 to 52
Surmontil trimipramine Futuna TCAD 300 24
Tofranil imipramine Novartis TCAD 200 19
Elderly shown to have slower metabolism giving half life of 28 hours.
Young me shown to have higher metabolism giving half life of 16 hours.
Triptafen phenothiazine Goldshield TCAD 4 tabs daily 30
Zispin mirtazapine Organon N&S enhancer 45 20 to 40

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/half_life.htm


 
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Anonymous

Healy's position by extraction - is venlafaxine worst withdrawal

July 1 2009, 12:59 PM 

_38329933_davidhealy315.jpg       One theory is that the relatively short half life of paroxetine and venlafaxine make these two drugs more problematic. This leads to a withdrawal strategy that advocates switching from paroxetine or other drugs to fluoxetine.The second is that paroxetine and venlafaxine are relatively more potent serotonin reuptake inhibitors and this theory leads to a switch to less potent serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as citalopram     see also - http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/half_life.htm   Seroxat/paroxetine half life = 21 to 26 hours,   Efexor/venlafaxine half life = 5 (5 to 11) hours


 
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paula

I'm not sure that this is Dr Healy's position because...

July 3 2009, 9:34 AM 

He starts the paragraph above as:

"One theory is..."

 


 
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Anonymous

Its also here

July 2 2009, 11:13 AM 


 
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