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Did the Mk.V have rails on its top?

June 16 2005 at 10:53 AM
  (Login a7vboy)
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from IP address 68.220.145.172

The new emhar kit Mk.V does not have any rails but ive seen photos of some tanks with rails and some without the rails, so did they have the rails, also the cover plates on the engine vents, did the Mk.V have them?

Regards,

Eugene

 
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(Login coopmik2)
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Mk V Bits

June 17 2005, 1:23 AM 

Hiya

De-ditching rails are standard fittings from teh factory on Mk Vs, and originally on V*s. Although removed on V*s most wartime photos I've looked at of Vs show them in place - although shots after 1919 show Vs without. Commanders were given the discretion on leaving the de-ditching beam at home on some operations, but the rails seem to have stayed put.

I'd suggest you trawl photos (and text) in David Fletcher's Landships and British Tanks 1915-1919 and in the old (now republished) profile book on AFVs to 1919.

The AWM site has good pictures on it too from teh common AWM/IWm collection.

As to the covers over the air intake grills...well it varies as photos will show you. These are not originally fittde, but quite quickly Vs appear with one, or two angled hoods, and in odd cases V*s get a sort of angle iron fitting. Once again, a trawl of books will give you teh best feel for this.

The Armada book on Russian Civil War tanks has good pic too.

By teh way, Mk V markings were done to a standard drawing that Bovington stll has, although at least at first, theer are local variations in teh interpretation of the placing of ID stripes. Placings and even the font of the serial numbers seem remarkably consistent. Their Mk V - ex 8 Bn - shows the set off well. Battalion numbering and naming prcatice varied, and you'll need to check photos for this. I can help with info on some Battalions, but the primary sources aren't as good at names as for Mk Ivs the year before.



Hope this helps

Mike Cooper

 
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Drawings

June 17 2005, 1:27 AM 

Oooh - Forgot - Bovington Library has works drawings showing the de-ditching rails and how they go on.

A really good set of V, V8 and V** drawings have survived, down to individual plates and fittings.

Mike

 
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(Login a7vboy)
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great

June 17 2005, 5:28 AM 

This answers it! I was just browsing through books myself and I found a photo of tank 9004 (the one im planning to make) so I now know that one indeed had the rails and 2 vents, its a shame emhar doesnt have the rails in the kit, but I have spare one's from the tadpole kit. By the way I hope the Ca1 schneider from emhar comes out soon, it would be a brand new tank kit, and I wonder what kind of tracks it will have . . .

Thanks Again, as allways


Eugene


P.S. You haven't anwered my email would you be interested in writting a book about WWI AFV?

 
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Rails

June 17 2005, 5:43 AM 

Is 9004 Barrhead? If so I've no idea how her name was shown. Odds are - based on fragments other 2Bn evidence - that if it was carried it was on the nose plate.

Don't forget that the Tadpole rails will have to be reversed and the fittings and contours along the tank are different. It might be just as easy to use plastruct of the right size. The rails also have a "catch" to hold the beam in place just aft (from memory) of the silencer. This only really shows up from drawings and if you have a good lok at the Bovvie MkV. I tried to show it on mine.

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/CooperM/Armour/index.html



But it barely shows in 1/76th

Mike Cooper


 
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the name

June 17 2005, 6:23 AM 

it was the barhead with nubmer 4 obviously it had the distinct red skull and bones. The rails on the Tadpole are the MkIV rails so they could be fitted with modifications on the MkV kit, its just that the tadpole kit is a Mk.IV male with the tail hince it has the rails.


Thank you again, you help so much

 
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Skull and Bones

June 17 2005, 7:00 AM 

Check photo in Fletcher "Tanks and Trenches" for 9004. How do you know the skull etc were red? Given that teh colour plate in the old Profile shows her as green, does it have this feature right?

I have 9004 as B4 - 2/Lt N. Tattersfield's tank of C Company. (Ran out of fuel on 8th August 1918 - passed to 2/Lt Symons and was knocked out on 23rd August 1918 whilst with a "Composite Company" of 2nd Bn.)

Looking at my notes, Barrhead was 9003 B56 - 2/Lt D Cameron's tank also of C Company. Successfuly rallied at teh end of teh day (no doubt with a very sick crew) (War diaries in teh PRO at WO95/102 and 113)

If I remember Barrhead right (now I've checked), there is a good sequence of shots of her in the Tank Museum, and she is on the cover of David Fletcher's Landships. She's flying her red/white/blue "Rallying" flag I seem to recall.


Whichever tank, she should look good.

Mk IV rails will need turning round, and you'll need to check the arrangement

Mike Cooper

 
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wow

June 17 2005, 7:40 AM 

thats news to me, my referance to them being red was the emhar instructions they told so, they also told that the tank was more earth brownish than green, so the tank was actually green not brown? and now ill have to check those photos, i ordered Fletchers book from amazon.com so I should get it shortly, I can't believe emhar made another big error like that!

 
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Nope...not at all green...

June 17 2005, 8:12 AM 

Well, depends on what they sourced it from.

Don't forget, Emhar may have just parrotted a secondary source because the picture looked good or they may hav edone extensive reserach in primary sources. This is one reason I keep banging on about not repeating other's errors. It sounds as though they've corrected the "green" error, but that does leave the question of the skull and bones. I'm not saying they're wrong per se...

The Profile shows green, but then the Profiles on the Mk IV and Whippet also showed tanks as green. Given that we have good primary sources for brown as the base tone for heavy tanks at least in 1917 and 18, their use of green in the colour plate doesn't seem necessarily valid. (The AFV Profiles use of colour was dodgy, and could be wildly innacurate, even given the state of understanding at the time.)

Given that the Profile's use of green doesn't look valid as far as we can tell from primary sources, the colour they show for the skull and crossbones may not be valid. The only way we can be sure is to look at the original photo and come to some judgement about the tones present. It could well be that if 9004 showed this feature, it was red and white, but without a primary source stating this or showing this (ie. a colour photo or maybe (perhaps) a crewman's watercolour done at the time) it's only possible to probable. If it's the same tone as the red (we know it's red from surviving examples and contemporary documents - a reference in PRO file WO95/113, oddly enough mentions this on Mk Vs) in the identification stripes, then red may be a good bet.

This may sound pedantic, but it's the only way to back up a conclusion on a model without the (equally valid) "well it's my model and I thought it looked good". There is nothing wrong with that and it really depends on what you want to be able to say about your model.

Big warning to everyone is always to treat kit instructions with the same caution as you'd use with any other secondary source IF - and only IF - you want to claim an historical basis for your model. Do they say how they know? What source do they give? How does this tally with other statements based on primary sources?

As an example of this approach in action, look at the colour statements given in the Windsock range of books on WW1 planes.

Hope this helps!

Mike Cooper

 
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red

June 17 2005, 8:27 AM 

well since the british used red o nthe stripes then the skull and bones could be red, but thats just a guess. Would it be accurate to put a "crib" on this tank?

 
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No evidence...

June 17 2005, 10:20 AM 

I'l need to check further, but as far as I know cribs were only used for a short period, and I've only seen them on 7th Bn and 8th Bn tanks in September 1918.

Hangs on if 2nd Bn were assigned objectives needing them, but I've found no note in the War diary to confirm this yet. I wouldn't go to the effort of making one unless I could confirm that 2Bn ever used them

And...if you do a crew figure, Battalion colour was yellow...

Oh...now I'm at home...9004 got repaired and was issued to 10th Bn, and was in action again in October 1918. 9003 may have been converted to an Hermaphrodite, and certainly ended up in Russia - eventually withthe Red Army.

Cheers

Mike Cooper

 
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crib

June 17 2005, 10:33 AM 

I just saw a crib at a model store so getting one would not be a problem but I would need to know if it had one, and was it just regular yellow as the battalion color?


Thank you again, Im slowly getting a hang of WWI modeling!

 
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Reference check

June 17 2005, 4:27 PM 

Ok...I have no evidence that 2nd Battalion ever used cribs

The Battalion colour was used only

a. On flashes on helmets and uniforms
b. On section and company commanders penants and flags - which seldom if ever appear on Mk Vs (actually, they're hard to spot full stop).

I think youprobably need to have a check on crew uniforms, which is what I was referring to. Cribs were disposable items and may never have been painted at all.

Apologies, I may have confused you. It's probably a good idea to hold fire until you've reda through either Landships or British Tanks 1915-1919.

Mike Cooper

 
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fedex

June 17 2005, 6:20 PM 

fedex says two more days of shiping for the book,so i should get it shortly, you help is always great and without your patiance my projects wouldnt go very far, I do have a modeling question how can you make any kind of quality rivets I need them for my finished Ft-17 kit.


Thank you

 
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