Looks to me like you are trying to cause trouble for Durham. There are plenty of Mississauga players spread throughout the PWHL. There are plenty of Oakville players spread throughout the PWHL. There are plenty of Aurora players spread through the PWHL. Etc. Why is that?
Thankfully, people are able to go where they believe they will get what is the best fit for their needs at a point in time. Doesn't mean they are not also thankful for their years spent "at home", just that now there is a better fit elsewhere, for whatever reasons. Life goes on. So will Durham.
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Durham has always run a good program, has a HC who has U18 experience, and is devoted to his players. Great allround experience for those who pass through here. I'm not related to him, nor do I have a daughter on his team, but have watched a lot of games there and elsewhere in the PWHL.
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Probably a bit of panic by the players that left. Durham had 7 Team Ontario players all graduate so it looks like Durham will have a rebuilding year. I'd guess sub .500 finish even with the great coaching staff at the helm.
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Also, they have 5 girls for last years team get full rides to US universities, and one that I believe is a partial. Not bad from one team. Must be doing something right.
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The Durham coach is a solid coach. His coaching this year in the playoffs prove this. The players that left may not find that there is a pot of gold elsewhere. Durham has a solid reputation of placing kids in D1 schools, far better than one of the teams his players went to.
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 24.89.76.147
Re: Durham Exports
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June 25 2009, 10:21 AM
Durham has placed many many players in the NCAA on full rides over the years. I believe that since the inception of the PWHL they are second only to the Aeros.
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The Diceman
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Aeros are clear tops and NCCP/Sens are a clear second in the recruit listings over the years. Durham is numbert three and Missy and Stoney round out the top 5.
Stats below back this up.
Number of NCAA D1 Placements from each Ontario team over the last five years is:
Team Count
Aeros 41
NCCP 28
Durham 17
Missy 13
Stoney 13
London 11
US Prep 7
Hamilton 5
Oakville 5
Aurora 4
Bluewater 4
Sudbury 4
Windsor 4
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Does this include girls committed for the 2009-2010 season? I assume that this list if both PWHL and Midget girls. Some associations have (well, the Aeros for sure) have graduated players from both to D1.
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Seven players who are from Ontario but graduated from a US prep onto NCAA. This years example includes players from Deefield and Culver. Years past players from NAHA and NSA.
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My numbers are a bit different than yours. Perhaps you were using 04-09 numbers, rather than 05-10? Please make corrections if/where I forgot players if some stopped playing hockey along the way or have not been reported as incoming recruits for next fall.
Total 185 D1 players over past 5 years= average 37 players/yr. This year's class is larger than the norm.
5 Year Average D1 Placements: 23% Aeros, 14% Ottawa, 10% Durham, 8% Stoney Creek, 7% London, 6% Missy...these 6 clubs make up more than 2/3 of all recruits, with the top 3 representing nearly half. The next closest clubs each contributed less than 3%.
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Sorry about missing Guillemette--she has been added to the list, but as Jenner will not be playing D1 until 10-11 she does not qualify to be included in this 5 year update (same applies to Drinkwater, and others in various clubs in the next grad class who have already committed early)
But you only wish that they all have high enough SAT scores (personally, I prefer my daughter to get higher SAT scores than becoming a better hockey player, if I have to choose between those 2).
There are plenty of good hockey players without brains... what will they do when hockey is over after college?
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It's nice to show how many the Aeros have sent to D1..but looking at that list I see a lot of girls who were developed in Leaside, Markham/Stouffville etc..so if we subtract those players who actually developed in another organization, the numbers would be surprisingly different.
There's a lot of pressure on organizations that develop players from within ( Novice to Bantam ) to take their own over imports. Teams like the Aeros would all be imports by this rule.
Lets recognize these facts when you are looking at what an organization has done for their players. The results might be a whole lot different if looked at from this point of view.
Posting what the Aeros have done only tells me they have good coaching, a province-wide reputation and recruit well...but they don't develop these players. Hats off to all the organizations that do.
This had to be said for fear people reading these stats would think the Aeros have given a lot to develop girls minor hockey. Their results are good..but by no means does it diminish what those other organizations have done. ..and in some ways it's not fair to compare these stats to make these judgements.
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 64.110.202.44
Re: Best Organizaton to Develop Players
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July 6 2009, 9:52 AM
You can take the numbers anyway that you want, but the numbers will not change. The Aeros do develop these players. They allow all players to play in all circumstances so that they do develop.
All organizations that the player played for have a part in the players final product, but when looking to get scouted the facts are there for all to see. Scouts look at the Aeros and that is a fact.
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The Diceman
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Your hypothesis, I believe, is that if you actually credited the girls hockey organization where the player spent the most time, you would find that the Aeros would no longer be among the Top 5 on the list of D1 placements. This would be presumably because you believe that the key to the Aeros success is that they merely recruit more of the best fully developed players for their last year or two. Rather than actually helping to develop them to their potential during their time as an Aero, and helping them gain access more D1 opportunities.
The facts show otherwise.
As someone else said previously, while the Aeros have been a Top 5 team each of the past 5 years in the standings, they have not dominated the league points-wise to the same degree their D1 placement has, related to other perennial top teams. Over the past 4 years, Toronto averaged 51.5 points, Stoney 48.3 points, Missy 43.5 points and Durham 41.8 points. Yet Toronto's D1 placement is more than twice as high as the rest, and very strong even in years when their performance in the PWHL has been weaker than some. This suggests superior player recruitment alone is not the key reason for their degree of success in D1 placement. Actually, on the basis of D1 recruits-per-average team points achieved over the past 4 years, to attempt to discount the impact of a team's overall strength in the numbers, the top 5 clubs are still as follows: (1) Aeros 1.23 (2) Ottawa 1.59 (3) Durham 2.20 (4) London 2.50 and (5) Stoney 3.02.
Now let's see how the relative placement rates would look if you did not categorize on the basis of a players last PWHL club, but on the basis of where they played girl's hockey the longest. If a player stayed with the same organization for their last 3 years at minimum, that organization has been designated (no one is guaranteed a D1 placement out of bantam--many players plateau there!). These numbers are close but not exact, as I don't have access to the complete playing history of every D1 player. Here's what the numbers show: (1) Aeros 24 (2) Ottawa 20 (3) Durham 16 (4) London 15 (5) Etobicoke 11. (Stoney, Oakville, and Brampton are next with 9 each). The only key "surprise" from previous lists is the prevalence of previous Etobicoke players, who eventually dispersed to various other nearby clubs including Mississauga, Oakville, Aeros etc. The Aeros are still #1 by this measure, though by a lesser margin, given that they are comprised of only 2 teams. However, they still continue to fare better by this measure than most would expect given two factors: (a) a larger proportion of their players join the organization either directly from boys hockey, or after a very short pit stop elsewhere (b) a high proportion of their PWHL roster is generally compromised of 2 year Midget Aeros.
Most believe that the Aeros do little to develop players, but are quick to agree that other "full-service" clubs most certainly must. But many of these same teams will gladly encourage several undeveloped 15 year olds (or younger) on their rosters just to fill spots, and will regularly short shift their weaker players in order to double shift their stars. How do these practices contribute to their development?
Virtually all players need a year or two of Midget hockey to reach their full potential, to gain more ice time and time with the puck in key situations and develop confidence in their abilities, critical to reaching their potential. Few organizations actually achieve this, the Aeros actively promote it and expect players to buy in. Year after year, a significant number of Midget Aeros forego opportunities to play PWHL hockey elsewhere, in the name of better long-term development at the Midget level. Very few Midgets ever leave the organization having joined, even when they don't ultimately make the Junior club. What does that suggest? And how about the Aero who joined from Bantam A, and received a full ride in a prestigious D1 program beginning this fall? Or the Midget Aeros who year after year gain D1 offers over other PWHL players? The Aeros don't actually develop players?
In most situations, both Junior and Midget Aeros roll their lines, providing equal development opportunity for all, even at the risk of losing games in many cases. If you believe the Aeros do not contribute significantly to their player's development and recruitment prospects, you really know nothing at all about the Aeros....except what you'd prefer to believe!
You don't have to like the Aeros, but they deserve credit for doing many things well. For all their players, not just the stars.
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Just a comment/question so don't go off the deep end on this one but how about the fact that the Aeros get looked at more than other team. I know the University/College coaches attend the big tournies but if they are going to make a separate recruiting trip north, they are much more likely to go to Toronto than, say, Cambridge or Windsor. Comments?
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There is little doubt that scouts do go to way more PWHL games of the Aeros than most teams, many times per season. I have even heard of them going to Aeros practices believe it or not. So it's not just that the Aeros get watched more often than many other teams during the big heavily scouted tournaments.
The extra attention certainly adds further to their D1 placement rates, but the Aeros must be doing something right to be getting that extra attention in the first place.
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"while the Aeros have been a Top 5 team each of the past 5 years in the standings, they have not dominated the league points-wise to the same degree their D1 placement has, related to other perennial top teams"
While you suggested that is due to rolling the lines etc while other teams play the stars only, you an look at it a different way:
The Aeros attract the best overall incoming class of players every year (admittedly due to past success), so as a result they have the deepest set of high quality players at seasons start every year. However it takes more than a set of good players to win whne it counts. Scouts look at the skillset of each player, not whether a team wins. They come and watch the Aeros cause they have the highest number of players with a high skillset, so its worth their while.
As far as scouts coming to practices. That is usually part of the evaluation of particular player they are interested in. We have had scouts at our team practice for the same reason, and we are not part of the elite top 5.
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Used the same 5 year age bracket as you. Missed a couple you had on the list so my numbers were off slightly from yours. My total was 186. You need to add Bero who played in Cornwall. Also had a couple of players who played in Thunder Bay.
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Thanks to everyone for their contributions to a complete list. I neglected to check out the Sacred Heart roster, which is technically also a D1 program. So that adds 2 more to the total. Aldous from Windsor doesn't qualify, as she was from the Ontario class that graduated the previous year. Also, as I've chosen to track only Canadians to D1, the Bero girls wouldn't qualify either despite previously playing here.
will you please lay-out your ground rules as to how you are qualifying which girls get mentioned and which one's aren't. I know of 3 other's from one association who received D1 scholarships, who were not mentioned. Before I put their names up, I want to make sure they meet your qualifications.
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The qualifications are straightforward: Canadians with Ontario connections prior to D1 (ie. either living in Ontario but may have played outside it, or from other parts of Canada but playing in Ontario) starting their D1 hockey career in the most recent 5 year period, ie. 05-06, 06-07, 07-08, 08-09 or 09-10.
The last PWHL club (or Mid AA club if that's the highest level they were at) they played for is the one to be listed.
In the case of Selina, you're right she was with Etobicoke not Aurora--will make the correction in the next revision.
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How the heck did this thread get here? the original point was that there are a whole lot of kids that were developed in Durham that are now on other teams throughout the PW. It sure as heck wasn't a shot at the coach but just a question. Durham's rep and history are all well documented but why did talent leave? Whitby Markham Toronto Missy Etobicoke all benefactors of Durham develoment.
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their won reasons. As is well documented here and stated by many contributors to this thread, the coaching is excellent, so who knows? For some it may be to be with friends, for some to be closer to home, whatever the reason, they're gone. The same could be said for many PWHl organizations. Lots of other teams have had the same situation. When KW opened last year I'm sure a lot of players moved from other organizations to them. I be every player's reason is different, so why speculate? By the way, it is terrific to see how many talented players from ALL over Ontario are playing their dream! Just shows what quality players we have here. I'm sure many OUA and CIS programs are also benefitting from our graduate players! Any list for those for the last 5 years?
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Poster wondered why so many girls were leaving Durham.
Fact is that, given free movement, losses from Durham are no greater than from other places over the long haul. Players leave every centre for individual reasons.
It was suggested that given strong track record of coaching in Durham, and in placing players at D1, players leaving now for organizations without such enviable placement records was puzzling.
Someone stated Durham was consistently top 2 in placement in province. Someone else said #3. Stats were provided and corrected to verify Durham's strong #3 position.
Does that help?
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I believe the reason for the original post was because of the UNIQUE situation regarding Durham West.
While player movement is obviously seen every year it is not often that a team that has had a great deal of success as well as great coaching totally disbands at year end.
At next year's tryouts if Mississauga, Stoney, Ottawa, or the Aero's have only two eligible returning players show up and a total of less than 15 skaters on the ice I don't think this would be accepted as usual.
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 24.89.76.147
Sorry...when I said number two, I should have .....
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June 26 2009, 5:15 PM
stated in the GTA.....as it seemed that people were assuming that Durham was not a good place to play, based on the players who went elsewhere this year.
In the GTA....the Areos are a clear number one and Durham is number two....so when looking to getting NCAA exposure it is a great place to play.
The numbers stated on here are close but not totally correct.
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The Diceman
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there were actually only 4 that moved elsewhere. You are right it was a unique situation. Eleven players graduated from the team this year and many had spent all or quite a few years of their hockey career together and playing for the same coach. Those that left, basically had not. I could be incorrect but I think only one of those that moved elsewhere had come up through the Durham organization. Four players changing teams is not an outstanding number, but 11 graduating is.
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All four that left had been with DW for at least two years and two had grown up there. However, whether the number is 4 or 15 doesn't really matter. I disagree that 4 players leaving a team where they have had tremendous success and great coaching is the regular.
What you are saying is that if Stoney or the Aeros top four players left to go to Durham or Mississauga that would be normal. I don't think so.
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I was saying that 4 was not a huge number of players to change teams. They made their choices for whatever reasons. As widely stated, a good program and coach, so the reasons rest with those who made other choices.
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Durham #10 left for one reason only.....couldn't continue to do the drive. spending 6 hours a week in the car driving to and from practice and was anticipating that this might have an effect on her grade 12 year. Needed billeting. No offers from anyone in Durham therefore had to look elsewhere. Call it what you will but it certainly had nothing to do with TAMPERING!
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People from the city do not realise the tough grind for those further away from centres that have elite level hockey. We are in that same boat, actually do more than 6 hours a week. My less than 3 year old vehicle has over 200K on it, at least half of that is driving to the various rinks. Many days in the winter between work and practice, 250K. Naps and homework in the car are commonplace.
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With 11 top players graduating, it isn't difficult to guess that those 4 got cold feet and decided to go to Aeros and Missy where many top players are staying for next season???
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That should be anylized here. By the time these ladies reach Int AA or "Junior " the talent is already evident in 70 to 90% of the girls moving on. At the Int AA level the good coaches are working on systems and conditioning rather than skill. Its the minor hockey programs that should be given credit for developing these players not the "Junior Level". These girls can play where ever they want and if good enough would more than likley move to NCAA or CIS regardless of what Junior team there on. Why do you think say Ottawa has so many girls moving on? its because it isn't watered down in that area. 1 MILLION to draw from for 1 team. Its a no brainer. Toronto area is the same but to a lesser extent. Yes the Aeros have a good reputation as well as the Lightning or Stoney. But its a short one. I would bet that over 50% of girls are from centers that don't even have a Int AA program. Quit tooting the horns of these Int AA programs who benefit from years of developement by minor hockey programs and give credit to the associations and coaches who took these ladies when they were first learning the game and made them who they are today.
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Its not true Int.AA. If it was there would be more than 3-5% Intermediate aged players. Its more Midget AAA minor hockey. How many Jr. male teams consist of 95-97 % midget aged players??????? NONE
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The numbers are 20% of the players this coming season are Intermediate age in the PWHL.
So not exactly Midget AAA either.
Female hockey is unique, tough to compare it to Boys Hockey.
Those that try to compare it to Boys Hockey always have concerns.
Not an exact science, but a work in progress.
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was posted on this forum a few times. Most recent numbers had on average 2 players of Int Age per PWHL team, outlyers as high as 8 and as low as 0. Two per team equates to ~12% based on a 17 player roster.
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 24.89.76.147
Re: 20%
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July 2 2009, 3:20 PM
Please the players you are referring to are not over aged by the age that is used for Intermediate aged hockey .....the fact that the Majority of players are under aged does not change the age of Intermediate age players.
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The Diceman
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 24.89.76.147
Re: 20%
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July 2 2009, 6:00 PM
The reason why is that the PWHL is simply Intermediate hockey.......with the age as you described.
The fact that the Leagues has only about 15% of true age players is a result of the OWHA rescue attempt to have this age group continue at the AA level.
However if this league wants to be considered Jr hockey then the age group is correct.....the adjustments that have been described many times or the majority of them need to take place first.
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The Diceman
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This may be fact Dice but the end result is what now known as M-AA and M-A is a complete melt down. Intermediate AA is sill not Int.AA. Also to be even concidere Int.AA there needs to be more than 50% 18-21 aged players and we all know this can not happen because of funding and there would not be enough players to support the too many teams there already are alsobecause of movement to schooling. The PWHL needs to cut out at least 30% of the teams and done geographically. Also I beleive the teams without a supporting cast of developmental teams starting at the novice or atom levels should not be part of the PWHL. This would also make all Orgs. accountable for their development and would stop the player movement years into the development stages to teams that only suppor Midget AA and Int.AA.
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"I beleive (sic) the teams without a supporting cast of developmental teams starting at the novice or atom levels should not be part of the PWHL. This would also make all Orgs. accountable for their development and would stop the player movement..."
You speak nonsense without understanding reality or providing credible supporting evidence for your opinion. Having a full range of teams does not by itself reduce player movement, and having few teams does not necessarily mean players are jumping ship for their last year or two only, just for the sake of change.
Mississauga, at one end of the spectrum, has the widest range of "developmental teams" from top to bottom in the province. Yet, they have only 2 players from Mississauga on their 09-10 Int AA roster, only 1 of which has spent more than 1 year in their system todate. Only 2 players, both non-residents coming from 2 previous years in another girls association, have spent the past 2 years in Mississauga and are now entering their third year. There are 15 players in total with 0-1 years continuity within, including the 2 residents.
At the other end of the spectrum, the Aeros have only 2 teams in their whole organization. However, their Int AA team has 3 players (1 a resident) with 3 years already with the Aeros, now entering their 4th year. They have another 6 players who have spent the past 2 years with the Aeros (2 living in Toronto), now entering their third year. Of these 9 players, only 2 (possibly 3) came from 2 or more years in another girls association with a PWHL team. The Aeros have 8 players with only 0-1 previous years continuity--7 less than Mississauga.
There are many ways to build successful teams. Neither approach is black and white, right or wrong. Regardless of the approach, the goal is to provide girls with a competitive environment to improve their skills, while creating a league which offers the best on ice product possible at the Int AA level, in order to expand players' opportunities to advance their education while playing hockey beyond the PWHL. Policies which impede these goals (such as insisting on promoting only from within, or allowing only teams that do so to be part of the league), is inconsistent with such goals.
Not surprisingly, promotion from within exclusively does not often work in the real world business environment either, in developing the best possible management team on a long-term basis.
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If this is the case in Missy Then I am glad there is no team in my city. You can bet your bottom dollar these teams are under the youth priceing for their ice expences in those cities and I for one would be down to city hall protesting my tax dollars supplementing players who do not live here or there parents live across ON. in some other town. Want your kid on a team in the PWHL out of town then be prepared to pay the price for the glory to nowhere.
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in the vast majority of cases, the credit then goes to boys hockey for their development. If you look at Team Ontario rosters as an example, most of these girls spent a good part of their years in boys hockey. Kudos to the OMHA, GTHL, etc. Well done. Thank you for giving them all these opportunities. You happy now?
You actually really don't get it.
What do you think it is that university coaches are looking for? Skilled players are frankly a dime a dozen. Tons of them in the US too. Most skilled players did a lot outside of their teams anyway to develop these skills via power skating, shooting clinics, hockey camps, off-ice training centers, etc.
To be successful at the next level, what separates skilled players is their commitment and discipline to daily conditioning, plus their hockey IQ, the understanding and ability to execute a variety of systems and be strong in team play as well as individual skills. It is this second component that often can give players from here an advantage over players from elsewhere, and it is this aspect that is developed mostly in the later years by top coaches, and/or in top organizations having the benefit of a more consistently higher calibre of players on the team.
The reputations of various Int AA coaches/organizations, their track record in selecting and further training players who will be/have been successful at the next level, and their relationships with D1 coaches to help evaluate potential prospects, are key in achieving high rates of placement. D1 coaches can spend very little time scouting. When they do, they focus mostly on teams where the greatest number of top prospects are. When they are not scouting, they rely to some extent on the assessments of Int AA coaches/ organizations they have existing relationships with, for assessing players.
Of course, if you are a Team Canada-type candidate, you will find D1 opportunities regardless of where you happen to play. It is for the much larger number of "bubble players", that playing for one of the top organizations makes a very big difference, because of these relationships and their track records.
That's why, often a third line player from a top organization will have more D1 opportunities than a first line player from a middle of the pack organization will have. That first line player may well be at least as skilled, if not more so.
So, it's not usually the team that someone played for the longest along the way that accounts most for the placement. Of course, every organization along the way did contribute, and should be justifiably proud of their role in helping a player ultimately reach their goals.
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It doesn't really matter where these girls develop, the numbers above show just how important it is that they get with one of the four or five teams listed above if they want the best chance of going D1.
Knock them all that you want, but teams like the Aeros, Ottawa & Durham have the connections, they make sure that they get themselves to where their players are seen. They have the experience to guide their players through some tough decisions. If you look at the 2007-2008 season, the Aeros had more girls go D1 than anyone else, yet they were a fourth a place team. Look at how many players from these teams end up on the U18 squads, both provincial and National.
This is exacerbated further by this new series of Can-Am challenge tournaments that started last year. U.S. coaches can only travel so often. Many will choose to pass on some of the tradtional popular tourneys in order to attend these so called elite ones.
None of this is the fault of these organizations. They have done an extremely good job of creating a place where talented players will not get missed. The onus is on the other organizations create reasons for girls to stay where they developed.
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Of the 30-40 girls who got Full rides this year 90% of them would have received those opportunities regardless of what team they played on in the PWHL. These girls were identified and followed some as early as Bantam but usually noticed at the first major tournies of the year such as Stoney's or NAHA .The scouts are usually there Friday and Saturday of the tournament when all teams are playing. They usually have left by Sunday so being in the Final or Semi final from a scouting point of view is not as important but can't hurt. If the school is interested they will seek them out. They don't choose the player because they are an Aero or a Sabre or a Lightning. They choose them because they are great players and even better people. This is coming from someone who has been through the process from start to finish with their daughter and has quized the scouts on why they were interested in their daughter. Not one one of them mentioned the fact that my daughter was on a good team or part of a good organization. They identified her raw talent and potential FIRST (not necessarily skill) and researched from there to see if she was a good student/a leader ect. The opportunity is the same regardless if you are in Windsor or in Sudbury. Those opportunities are created by the player and the parents with SUPPORT from the teams. The situations of these ladies are usually decided in 90% of the cases before their 3rd year in the PWHL has started its just a matter of which school. The numbers are what they are as a result of a watered down league that has a concentration of talent in large metro areas that are close to one another. If this were a 10-12 team league (which it should be) you would be displaying a whole different set of numbers. It does'nt matter what its called either Junior or Int AA or Midget AAA it's the same TALENTED girls.
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as it is no different than falce advertisement. How many girls get turned away because of their age??? Sorry we are looking for girls who need scholarships just coming out of high school. I personally know of a lot of girls who were let go because of this and I would love to have the chance to round up these true Intermediate AA aged players and form a team for the sole purpose to blow yes even the all mighty self proclaimed top development teams as the Aeros. Aeros just for the record you have developed no one as all the surrounding ORGANIZATIONS of GIRLS HOCKEY have done this for you. So sorry poster you dont get it!!!!!!
It is Midget AAA minor hockey at best.
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I am sorry if your daughter lost a roster spot to a Midget aged girl with scholarship aspirations. Like it or not, the PWHL is primarily oriented towards helping girls achieve their goals of moving up to play university hockey in Canada or the US.
While some truly Intermediate-aged girls (especially those already pursuing post-secondary programs) have been very strong, mature role models and valuable leaders on various PWHL teams, I have unfortunately seen and heard of many more cases where their influence on their respective teams has been more negative: without such hockey/educational aspirations, their commitment to the necessary work ethic was weaker, their level of hockey interest and drive primarily social, and their passion for off-ice partying more pronounced. Such attitudes can easily spread within a team, and are perhaps more suited to Int A or Senior AA environments. Perhaps this is also part of the reason why coaches may be cautious about adding too many older players, irrespective of their skill level.
With respect to your low opinion of the Aeros, I challenge you to try to support your position with facts. How many Aeros do you actually know, or do you just enjoy suscribing to the popular anti-Aeros rhetoric?
I've known a large number of Aeros over the years who do credit them with a significant role in their development--and their university placement options. Further, there are actually comparatively few Aeros who spent longer in another single girls association than they did with the Aeros. Unlike most girls clubs, more than half actually spent most of their development years in boys associations. Of those going to the Aeros from girls hockey, many spent their years in other Toronto-based girls associations such as Willowdale and Leaside, who don't have their own PWHL teams.
But don't let facts get in the way. I wouldn't want to deprive you of your greatest pleasure, after all.
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You paragraph about the Intermediate aged players mixed in with a mostly Midget aged team requires a few responses:
Quote: "While some truly Intermediate-aged girls (especially those already pursuing post-secondary programs) have been very strong, mature role models and valuable leaders on various PWHL teams, I have unfortunately seen and heard of many more cases where their influence on their respective teams has been more negative: without such hockey/educational aspirations, their commitment to the necessary work ethic was weaker, their level of hockey interest and drive primarily social, and their passion for off-ice partying more pronounced. Such attitudes can easily spread within a team, and are perhaps more suited to Int A or Senior AA environments. Perhaps this is also part of the reason why coaches may be cautious about adding too many older players, irrespective of their skill level."
1 - While Dice may not like the use of the word overager when talking PWHL teams, the reality is PWHL teams are in essence Midget Aged teams with the odd Intermediate aged player irregardless of the label.
2 - Given the different objectives of the 18-21 year old playing Intermediate vs the Objective of the 16 and 17 year Midget players, there will always be mixing issues. Most 18-21 years olds playing in the PW were not the leaders of their group when they were 16 or 17. Those players are off playing Univeristy hockey.
IMHO the solution is simple: Make the PWHL offically what it in essence already is today, a Midget AAA loop. The odd 18 year old wanting to do an extra year has Senior hockey as an option. This would once and for all end the never ending discussions about overagers. Reduce the PW by 10-20% in size to adjust for the lower number of players. You could even create one true Intermediate AA team in the GTA and have it part of the league as the designated overage club. Membership on that team would be restricted to Int AA players only and would provide a place to play for those players of caliber no longer at Midget age, and not going to CIS/NCAA.
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have chosen to stay back and are still hoping for a CIS or NCAA chance. For a number of reasons (improving grades and test scores which still can count even if you've graduated) adding or honing skills that were late to develop and so on, ther are girls who choose to play and play well, but yes they are in the minority. I've known a few that have done this with good results in that they are now playing CIS or NCAA hockey.
Don't sicount all 'older' players. The idea of a superannuated team is a good one as those that do stay back and are serious players is likely small. One problem is that they might not all come from the same area and distance could hamper them playing on the 'seniors+' team!
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Boy are you lost in left field.
While some truly Intermediate-aged girls (especially those already pursuing post-secondary programs) have been very strong, mature role models and valuable leaders on various PWHL teams, I have unfortunately seen and heard of many more cases where their influence on their respective teams has been more negative: without such hockey/educational aspirations, their commitment to the necessary work ethic was weaker, their level of hockey interest and drive primarily social, and their passion for off-ice partying more pronounced.
I have seem this in Int.AA and M-AA also, and to lable Intermediate aged players nothing more than a parting team you have looked at the wrong end of the spectrum. Most I-AA (midget aged players) are there because of their parents asperations and egoes and wallets. Tallent is what it is and most of the parents I would not give the time of day to, with their nosses up in the air and their precious little daughters snot nose attitudes. And no I do not have a daughter playing. I watch the sport because it is there to watch and with the Areos they are the worst parents in hockey. So keep spending tens of thousands of dollars on your precious little girls every year to get a scholarship worth half of what you will finally spend (if you are luckey)and see what your daughter will get out of it. You people seem to forget why we as Canadians play hockey. Yes ou should strive to be the best you can be but come on folks pushing these girls and having them believe hockey is everything all year round.
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I played hockey because I loved the game--my parents could not get me off the rinks. When I played in games I played to win. My daughter is the same way--loves the game--plays to win and wants to play at the highest level --which for her is IAA--and yes she is MAA age--so what. Her playing at this level has nothing to do with getting a free ride.I assume I will be paying for university.
She is in grade 10--knows she needs to get good marks to have a possibility of going to a university with a good hockey program. Between school , homework and IAA that is her week. Her free time is limited and she is ok with that. All I say is I hope she keeps playing thoughout high school.
Playing IAA is motivating her to work a little harder to keep her grades higher as a parent that is what we want--the fact that she can go out there to compete at this level is a bonus.
As a parent there would be no advantage having her play at this level if she did not posess the talent--why risk frustration and maybe having her quit before the end of high school and loosing that motivation. I personally do not care if she plays at university--just want hockey to help get her there.
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Who is whining? Stop pushing her (or allowing her to be pushed) and rationalizing your decision to do so.
If winning is as important as you say it is, she would be far more likely to win if she stayed at the MAA level on one of the top teams in Grade 10. You say she has the talent to play IAA. She will still have the talent, but be far stronger in the long run if you don't let ego (hers or yours?) get in the way of greater long term success.
Hockey will be far more likely to help get her into a good university if she continues to work on fully developing her abilities, and confidence in them in all situations, versus rushing into Int hockey--and the extra time commitment that usually goes with it.
History has shown that the majority of Grade 10s playing Int AA suffer in their long term progress versus those who stick to Midget AA for at least a year--regardless of their respective talent at the same point in time.
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The last poster was whining about parents that throw money around to get their daughters playing at the highest level stating that it is not why we play hockey. Let's face it most of the kids playing play the level of their age--my other daughters do. My son played AAA hockey I do not remember anyone saying he was being pushed--he had the talent and wanted to play at the highest level.
The advantage in boy's hockey that is not available in girls is they have some structure within the leauges--there are less AAA teams than AA so AAA is very competitive. Girls MAA hockey in Ontario is not--why because of the OWHA allowing organizations to decide where they want to place there teams. There is no formal structure---how do you justify centers with MAA teams that canot field a BAA and PAA team. Watered down competition
Most of the talented 16-17 and 15 year olds are playing in the PWHL because of the watered down MAA . Everyone knows the majority of the MAA teams struggle to keep up and are stocked with a and b players at best.Yes there are some good MAA programs--but not enough.
Fix the system do not bitch at talented younger players that can compete at a higer level. 37MAA teams and 17 IAA teams too many teams for too few talented girls. Every year more first year MAA girls jump into this leauge--I think it will be safe to say there will be more 94's this year than 93's last year. If there was a smaller more competitive MAA loop most of the talented 94's would stay
Remember these kids made the IAA teams--yes coaches picked them-- why because they have talent and will to compete.
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Yes, there are way too many teams, and MAA is more watered than it should be. I agree there are not enough quality MAA programs, which does unfortunately add too much incentive for good young players to move up too soon.
Yes, the current system should be fixed to encourage more quality players to remain at the MAA level and help in the longer term development of players.
Yes, IAA coaches are picking these young players because they are capable of playing at the IAA level now.
However, what you are failing to grasp is that every player has a choice. Do you want to choose what will develop your abilities to their full potential when you are 18, or would you just prefer to play IAA ASAP because you can? You can bitch that it's the fault of the system, but ultimately you (and only you) still should have an interest in what's in your own LONG-TERM development best interests as a player.
That IAA coach is not. He needs to fill this year's roster with the best players possible to field a competitive team RIGHT NOW. So if you are currently equal or better than the 17 year old he could have taken instead, you get a roster spot. If that means you warm the bench in key situations, so be it. Your primary unstated role may well simply be to provide valuable rest time for the stars. He may not even be coaching that IAA team by the time you graduate, so what would have been best your long term development is really of little concern.
Fortunately, more young girls are realizing this and playing MAA first, given the disappointing track record of progress of 15 year olds in the PWHL before them as a whole. Contrary to your belief, fewer 15 year olds are actually making the jump directly to the PWHL than was the case 3-4 years ago. And many of the very best young players over the last couple of years DID NOT play in the PWHL. For example, on last year's Team Ontario roster, 12 of the girls selected had not played in the PWHL the previous season. MAA obviously did something for their development, despite whatever problems in the system which exist.
It's your choice. Their really is no reason to rush.
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Re: I don't disagree with some of your points, but
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July 8 2009, 2:30 PM
That is true, that eveyone has a choice--- and it was her's to play IAA, not mine.
She wanted to play MAA in her major BAA year--I said no I felt that she was not mature enough--skill level was not the issue. She was only challenged in a handfull of tournament games last year--coasted thoughout leauge play.
She was the one that stated she did not want this again in MAA. Skill level she will be challenged more at IAA --she will not be the go too girl this year and she is ok with that. Her skills are there--I want to keep her motivated and playing IAA is what she wants and she understands the grades must stay up.
I am not worried about her hockey at 18--I want her motivated for the next couple of years and IAA will provide that. Her skill level will carry her to hockey at the next level if that what she wants. I just want her to go to university and right now it is playing at the highest level that is keeping her focused.
As I stated before there are good MAA teams and She was thinking about the MAA Aeros but the distance and more so the travel time was to long. The clincher for her to play IAA was when a bunch of first year BAA girls she knew and we average BAA players had committments from MAA teams.
After that she said to me why play midget--so it is the system to many MAA teams so they are filled withy the better first year BAA players--eveything gets watered down. Eliminate teams then girls will play in their age group because it will be competitive.
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Most of the talented 16-17 and 15 year olds are playing in the PWHL because of the watered down MAA . Everyone knows the majority of the MAA teams struggle to keep up and are stocked with a and b players at best.Yes there are some good MAA programs--but not enough.
With this statement it sais it all. You give the problem ( watered down MAA )and the reason why ( Most of the talented 16-17 and 15 year olds are playing in the PWHL)
Cut back the number of teams in both M-AA & I-AA. Your organization must have a supporting cast of developmental teams ie: N-A, A-A/AA, PW-A/AA, B-A-AA to support you M-AA & I-AA team if you are fortunate to have one.
I do not believe you should have an I-AA team if you do not have this supporting cast or at least close to it. To have JUST a M-AA team should not give you the right to have a PWHL team. This constitutes ownership of a team that is not and I repeat not a non proffit org. To hire coaches and pay for all the extra perks there has to be proffits made to pay for this. THis is not minor hockey it is a business for $$$$$$.
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I'm glad things worked out for your daughter, but your belief that all talented girls get an equal shot at D1 opportunities is naive. Your various comments suggest that your daughter may have been a top prospect, possibly a Team Canada player?
If not, just because no scout actually mentioned they were interested in your daughter for her skills and not also based on the top 4 club she played on does not mean it was not a factor--unless she did not play for Aeros/ Stoney/ Ottawa/ Durham? If she did, did you ask that question outright if it may have made any difference?
Yes, some girls (but definitely not most) are actually offered D1 scholarships prior to starting their Grade 12 year. Many of these are also the same girls who stood out in their first year of rep hockey and were clearly destined for success from a young age based on raw talent alone. From your post, it sounds like your daughter played in the PWHL for three years and may have been one of these top prospects (maybe top 8-10 in their age group?). In those cases, you are right, it doesn't make a lot of difference where you play--as I said before.
However, there are also even more girls who play in the PWHL 2-3 years, and don't ever get any of these opportunities at all. Most girls regardless of where they play or their # years in the PWHL, don't get lots of letters as Bantams, or many calls on July 1. Even among those who do, a significant number of these don't ultimately result in scholarship offers at all! Converting that interest into firm scholarship offers often doesn't happen until well into their final year. That's where the top clubs do help "seal the deal" for the next tier, and especially for the last 10-20 bubble players. Remember too that there are always girls who only play in the PWHL their senior year (or not at all!), and some who never got calls in July at all, who also eventually get scholarship offers too as the top few prospects finally commit elsewhere. I personally know of several of these.
I have talked to at least a couple of dozen scouts (not just as the process applied to my own daughter), and a large number have spontaneously expressed the opinion that a top organization plays a clear role in their degree of interest, for all but those very top prospects at the top of their list.
If you have ever watched the scouts on Friday and Saturday at major tourneys like the Stoney Showcase (yes, most are gone Sunday, so wins are irrelevant), you will note that the packs of scouts are much larger on certain pads, following games being played by Aeros, Stoney, Ottawa and Durham especially, as often as possible. Fewer scouts spend significant time watching 2 middle of the pack teams play, unless there is no game featuring top teams on at the time, or until their scouting of players on top teams and of top prospects has been completed.
If you do not play for one of the top clubs, it is still possible to be recruited even if you are not a top prospect. However, you must be significantly more proactive and aggressive as a player and parent in securing the opportunities on your own. Unfortunately, most players and parents don't understand the process and timing well enough to be as successful at this as they could be.
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(Premier Login thediceman) Forum Owner 24.89.76.147
Re: Sample Size of 1
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July 3 2009, 9:01 PM
I recommend going to an Arena during a tournament that has both PWHL and Midget teams......and then look and see the amount of scouts at a PWHL between two mid pack teams that historically do not send many players to NCAA D1 and then go to a game that has the Midget Aeros and see the amount of scouts that are represented there........
This simply exercise should remove all doubt as to the team that you play for.......unless you are a top player the difference in your chances are remarkable.
I have talked with many many Schools and they will all tell you that they scout players....but they also tell you that when going to a tourney they scout teams that have a reputation of having quality players first.
Play hard, play fair
The Diceman
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but marketing sure helps. That's why players from the 'top' teams get noticed. Those teams not only work hard with their players but FOR their players. They actively contact schools, play exhibition games against them, invite them to tournaments, supply schedules and rosters to coaches, all to foster interest in their players. That, in addition to turning out a good hockey product through development, coaching and practise helps those 'bubble' players get noticed. That's why those teams have a lot of recruits- the coaches are well aware of the players and where they are playing, as well as believing those teams to consistently having a high quality of players.
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they've been "developed" by the time they reach Junior?
When there's mainly Bantam and Midget girls? I don't think so.
Thats why theres a flow to the teams that do have development programs.
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Based on that Bero's should be added to the list as they played in Ontario prior to heading to their respective D1 programs and they live on Akwesasne which is part Ontario.
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Akwesasne is multinational territory just ask the police forces or the border guards. People list their address based on needs. Player in question played on Ontario Red and was in the U22 camp recently. The former would dictate they have an Ontario address to be eligible.
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