I have to agree with Edward-M on this point: There's no guarantee that today's money system will exist when you're revived, so why not spend that money now to help cryonics?

I hate to be pessimistic, but I believe the world's first successful cryopreservation has yet to be performed. And, given the past actions, (and inactions), of the cryonics organizations, I doubt it will be, for many years to come. I believe in “Information Theoretical Death,” as per Aubrey de Grey, and I think, thus far, those who haven’t undergone “Information Theoretical Death” prior to a standby team arriving, or arrival at a cryonic organization, have had it inflicted upon them by people who are not qualified to perform the required medical procedures. Sometimes, this lack of competence/proficiency may be the result of minimal funding, (which is understandable, to some degree), but on at least several occasions, I believe it was due to pure arrogance.

In my opinion, cryonics suffers from a plague of poor management decisions that are only compounded by even worse decisions, when attention is drawn to past errors. (So much for “learning from past mistakes.”) That’s “at best.” At worst, you may have opportunistic, somewhat clever, people who don’t have a proper understanding of existing medical procedures and equipment that could be adapted for use in cryonics, capitalizing on the ignorance and naiveté of others. Some of these people have been floundering around in cryonics for a couple of decades, without really accomplishing much, (other than, perhaps, wasting, or “earning,” a fairly large amount of money). Do you want to trust your money to these same people, or even to people associated with them? (This is not a comment on the new organization in Oregon, but a statement of the idea of cryonics organizations establishing these trusts, in general.)

Trying to "take it with you” seems like a really bad idea, to me, even if you plan on waking up, at some point in the future. Even if someone does a good job at protecting and investing the funds, who’s to say your “reanimation fund” won’t go the way of the retirement funds that were largely vested in tech stocks, or financial icons such as Bear Stearns? Or, worse yet, be stolen? Personally, I think the notion of keeping your wealth, while most of the people in the world consider you to be "dead" only perpetuates the appearance of cryonicists as narcissistic fools. As FD points out, even if you are fortunate enough to be revived in the future, there is no guarantee the world's financial system will be the same as it is now; that your dollars will still be where you left them; or, that they will actually be worth anything. Your money would most likely benefit you more, by being invested in cryonics, now, as Edward-M suggests.

People are going to want to reanimate cryonics patients, simply for the sake of being able to do it, and in the hopes of having this technology available to themselves. No doubt there will be a lot of money to be made via the press, book deals, movie deals, etc., upon the first reanimations, and no doubt the funds will come pouring in from people who want to be cryopreserved, once they see it can be done. Surely, the first people to be “reanimated” will be well-supported, and money will flow into the field of cryonics. At that time, people can begin to worry about setting up the types of individual trusts that have been discussed.

At this point, WAKING UP should be a cryonicist's main concern. If significant advances are not made in cryonics, SOON, today's cryonicists aren't likely to need their money after their “legal” death, as it will most likely be their final one. I believe Edward is right; the people working on so-called “wealth preservation” are setting up the field of cryonics for even more skepticism, criticism and ridicule.

http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/>

"the notion of keeping your wealth, while most of the people in the world consider you to be 'dead' only perpetuates the appearance of cryonicists as narcissistic fools."

"the people working on so-called 'wealth preservation' are setting up the field of cryonics for even more skepticism, criticism and ridicule."


Exactly!

This is just incredibly important.

What's stunning to me is that some people would only want to see the future if they had huge fortunes. Do they not want to see the future technologies & science? Do they simply want to own large objects?

Melody: “ There's no guarantee that today's money system will exist when you're revived, so why not spend that money now to help cryonics?”

Comment: There is no guarantee that any current system will exists when/if you’re revived. Monetary, Political, Cultural, Religious, etc, etc. pick and chose any system. However, throughout human history, Political, Cultural, Religious, Legal and all other systems were changing. All, with the exception of one - Monetary system. Monetary system is in existence Millennia and Millennia, probably ever since people started hunting, or agriculture, if not even earlier. There is no reason to foresee the abolishment of some monetary system in any future organized human society (or even in an anarchic society).

Melody: “I believe Edward is right; the people working on so-called “wealth preservation” are setting up the field of cryonics for even more skepticism, criticism and ridicule.”

Comment: I think it is irrelevant reasoning. The only relevance is: Do they have the legal right to do so. Yes? Or No? The ridiculous reasoning wold be: He/she is going to be cryo-preserved, so we must take his/her property. Hell, it is not so ridiculous. Every single heir thinks along those lines.

You said: "I hate to be pessimistic, but I believe the world's first successful cryopreservation has yet to be performed. And, given the past actions, (and inactions), of the cryonics organizations, I doubt it will be, for many years to come."

These people have already done ordinary, traditional standby/stabilization. Some better than others of course, but the obvious improvement to me on success of the preservation is getting it done ASAP, and that means bringing the vitrification to the customer.

I already spoke my piece down there about the future monetary system, which could easily be none at all. But even if there is one, and even if people continue to try to "take it with them", I tend to relate to Charles' views as to "what is the problem?". Maybe Edward could lay it out to us point by point, outline form, in a few short one-line items. I tend to have difficulty gleaning content from emotionally-laden posts between individuals. As Melody knows (smile)

G'nite,

FD

FD: These people have already done ordinary, traditional standby/stabilization. Some better than others of course, but the obvious improvement to me on success of the preservation is getting it done ASAP, and that means bringing the vitrification to the customer.

I've heard most men have "one-track mind," and it's easy to see what FD's track is. The problem with your argument is the assumption that "these people have already done ordinary, traditional standby/stabilization" with ANY significant degree of competency. How many cases do you think have been performed without massive air embolization, over- or under- pressurization, the proper medications, the proper cooling parameters, the proper CPS techniques, etc.? You can't bring something to the customer, if you can't even do it, to begin with.


I already spoke my piece down there about the future monetary system, which could easily be none at all. But even if there is one, and even if people continue to try to "take it with them", I tend to relate to Charles' views as to "what is the problem?".

I think Edward has some different issues with this topic, than I do. I have two main issues with the "wealth preservation," which I believe I've already covered, but I'll restate them, for FD:

1. If any cryonicist has money he/she can afford to invest, they should invest in advancing the field of cryonics, NOW. There's a lot of research to be done. And, when I say "research," I don't mean the fabrication projects that have been the focus of SA's "research."

2. Like it, or not, the public perception of cryonics is important. The whole "wealth preservation" is going to be perceived, with ridicule, by the vast majority of the population. If you ask me, anyone who doesn't see that it at least "looks" like a scam is socially blind.

I'm wondering...do the frequently referred to "wealthy cryonicists" think they are going to be reanimated, but either physically, or mentally, unable to support themselves?

Point #1:
Cryonic's appearance is vital to it's success. And if people created a for-profit interest scam to make money while they were dead it would lead to a media assault on us. It would make us all look like crooks.

We're still suffering from rumors that cryonics costs millions of dollars. So why give our haters more reasons to attack us?

And George: Sure an article about future possibilities like this won't create controversy, but if this actually happened it would.

Point #2: politics of the future:
.............. Leaving money in a fund is just giving that money to
.............. the government - they'll tax it.
..............
There's no guarantee that today's money system will exist when you're revived, so why not spend that money to help cryonics now? Infact, it's obvious that these big funds won't survive:

Liberal ideas are winning around the world. Infact we do everything Europe does a few years later, so how long until wealth taxes come? (Which would make this scheme fail.)

But George1st disagrees: he believes no one will interfer with his property rights because people just love deregulation. He's wrong: the "deregulate Enron!" movement is dead & so is the "deregulate home loans!" movement. These are part of the humor of comming online.

People like the regulation of monopolys & countless other "free market" financial scams. People are sick of economic corruption like people making billions while sitting on their bums.

I admit libertarian ideas would work better in a world just of individuals, but the world has simply gotten too complex. Companies today aren't individuals, they're complex government creations just like the entire money system.

In other words: Liberals already won. So expecting a reanimation fund to work is just silly. Really leaving money in a reanimation fund is just giving that money to the government - they'll tax it. So instead please give it to a cryonics group.

The minute they revive you, you will be treated by the IRS as if you have never been dead and will have to pay taxes for hundreds of years plus penalties. The only way to avoid it is to burry gold in a national park.

Basie

Sure glad Basie has resolved that issue.

So here I am, freshly defrosted, and I have in my hand a death certificate stating that I am not alive. My estate went through probate long ago, and any debt to the IRS was paid at that time.

But Basie knows for a fact what will happen. His omniscience is amazing.

problem is, my friend, is that the future societies will develop superduper gold detectors that will automagically detect gold hidden by greedy hoarders who hide gold in national parks. And what do bureaucracies naturally do with private wealth? TAX IT! So, your hidden gold will be discovered and taxed every year cumulatively with interest owing while you are in cryopreservation. Now, as for myself, I am going into the dewar without a penny because I know that the advanced bureaucracies of the future will care for me.....using taxes assessed over many decade on your hidden gold. When you are revived you will owe taxes in the billions, whereas I will owe nothing, but will be owed a living from the state, which will be funded by the back taxes you will be owing to the state. Actually, your hoarded gold will be worthless because of future superduper transmutational alchemy techniques that make gold plentiful and therefore worthless. But because you will still owe billions in taxes from the pre-alchemy future, you will be required to work till eternity to pay your taxes. I however will owe nothing and have nothing except a government check from your taxes. So I will be sitting back on the beach singing old Elvis songs for all eternity collecting welfare whilst you work for eternity to pay for my post-revival, welfare-queen future.

Suh-weet!

Basie: “Leaving money in a trust fund is giving that money to the government: they'll tax it. The minute they revive you, you will be treated by the IRS as if you have never been dead”

In such case the SSA should be paying you Social Security payments for all those missing years, plus interest. Maybe the IRS even would retroactively pay the Bush’s tax rebates. Some people actually might prefer IRS over money hungry heirs. The real problem would be if the life insurance companies start demanding refunds of the insurance payments, with interest. How do you prove that you really were dead for all those years and the old dead certificate is not a fraud?

You guys are a riot today, thanks for the laughs.

If the life insurance companies decide they want their money back when you are reanimated, they could only get it back from the beneficiary who actually received it, not you. One more thing to add to Alcor's many woes.

However, if they took it to court and in a decision based on equity the court decided the reimbursement should come out of your windfall of monthly social security benefits you will collect from the time your faulty death certificate was issued, let's look at a simple example. A $150,000 policy, and a monthly SS payment of $1,000. That gets paid back in 12.5 years. All the other decades or centuries of payments remain yours. For simplicity I omitted interest accrual on both the life insurance payout and on the social security payments.

If life insurance companies are even still around by then, they might have managed to get a special law passed relative to reanimated people, that if they have an income windfall they must pay back what was paid to their cryonics org. Anything could happen between now and then.

What I think will happen is there will no longer be any form of money at all. Robots will produce and deliver everything, and it will all be free. If people still want to live in capitalist economies, they can enjoy themselves to the hilt in Second Life, which will by then probably be thousands of times bigger than "First Life" ever was.

But, Basie should buy as many Krugerrands as he can find, and be sure to engrave his name and social security number on each one so that the IRS will know who to send the tax bill to when the government digs them up.

The Easter Bunny stopped by here today a little ahead of schedule but said he was getting a head start due to the Asian population explosion placing heavy demands on his time on the holiday. He was immediately followed up by an IRS agent who gave me a tax bill in advance on his estimated number of the hidden eggs in my back yard, and the estimated market value of same tomorrow, for the appreciation in their value being there overnight. Life goes on.

Isn't tomorrow a popular celebration of the day some dignitary was reanimated? He promptly disappeared and has not been heard from since. Must have owed a hefty tax bill.

Happy E-day,

FD

Melody presented two points, so did Edward. One of each is the same, so we have 3 arguments against wealth preservation trusts:

1) The money should be used instead for research and other activities of current cryonics companies.

2) The creation of wealth preservation trusts will stimulate further public outrage related to cryonics.

3) The government will just steal it through future wealth taxation.

On #2, Charles mentioned in the other thread that individual trusts have already been done in one cryonics organization (I presume CryoCare?) and there was no public outrage. The Wall Street Journal's article about wealthy cryonicists doing so produced no public outrage.

On #3, I will say that it is rare that a government adopts a system of taxation on anything, that takes the entire principal of it. Plenty of it is left to still grow larger over the years. Nationalization done in some socialist countries is of course an exception. If Edward has already stated specific examples otherwise of any countries (such as in Europe) that have taken all of someone's wealth, I apologize for not following all the threads on this, mixed with other stuff.

That leaves us with #1, which BTW is an original argument by Ettinger over the years. IMO how anyone decides to divvy up their savings is their own business. I would of course hope that any wealthy cryonicist would not just sock it all away, but would consider the needs both of the cryonics organizations, and of their own families, as well.

FD

On #2:

"If this actually happened - and some of the richest people in the world were dead people - it would have a very different response than a simple article about the possibility of something far off in the future." And FD, you must be smart enough to realize that. Any human being is.

#3
FD: "If Edward has already stated specific examples otherwise of any countries (such as in Europe) that have taken all of someone's wealth,"

Yes Germany has a wealth tax already, & France, but that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about future trends & how liberal ideas are winning - yes like high taxes to pay for healthcare & ideas like equal opportunity & basic fairness. So you can expect taxes to be used to further make economics fairer. You can expect more taxes on work-free fortunes & less taxes on food.

I don't care if you disagree - my point is these ideas are already winning so you can expect a "reanimation" fund wouldn't work but it would embarrass cryonics & make us look like crooks. (And waste money.)

FD, I wouldn't have had to explain this yet again if you'd had read my past posts.

Edward: I don't care if you disagree - my point is these ideas are already winning so you can expect a "reanimation" fund wouldn't work but it would embarrass cryonics & make us look like crooks.

If you don't care about anyone else's opinion, why bother to have a discussion at all? Maybe we should all start separate blogs and rant to our heart's content. This whole 'exchange of ideas' thing is a waste of Edward's time.

I do care but that's not the topic of this debate. My post was about the obvious trends in politics - how history is a long trend in favor of equality, tolerance, & bringing down the establishment.

In other words, of liberalism! So you can expect taxes to be used to further make economics fairer - you can expect more taxes on work-free fortunes & less taxes on food.

(So a "reanimation fund" would just end up as tax revenue, isn't donating to cryonics groups more important?)

Edward writes, "history is a long trend in favor of equality, tolerance, & bringing down the establishment."

I just don't know how to put this tactfully. I think you are seriously out to lunch.

FD: Melody presented two points, so did Edward. One of each is the same, so we have 3 arguments against wealth preservation trusts:
1) The money should be used instead for research and other activities of current cryonics companies.

Who said anything about funding the current cryonics companies???


FD 2) The creation of wealth preservation trusts will stimulate further public outrage related to cryonics...
...On #2, Charles mentioned in the other thread that individual trusts have already been done in one cryonics organization (I presume CryoCare?) and there was no public outrage. The Wall Street Journal's article about wealthy cryonicists doing so produced no public outrage.

I'm not so sure the response would be outrage, I think it's more of a credibility issue. Perhaps the reason there was no outrage was due to the fact that people don't take cryonics seriously. Why would people be "outraged" about "crazy cryonicists" saving their money after they're legally dead? It's my guess there was a lot more laughter, than outrage. Hell, I'm an "insider," of sorts, in cryonics...someone who understands the medical procedures involved, and knows many of the people "working" in cryonics, and it makes me laugh. (Edit: "It" being "wealth preservation," for people who are going to undergo whole body perfusion, and other medical procedures, at the hands of unqualified personnel, who may not care about cryonics as much as they care about their income.)