The sad news of Michael Jackson's death only brings to mind more the need for us to let people know that cryonics services are really an option. I believe there are countless wealthy and famous people who simply don't know about it. If they knew, then they might gladly fund cryonics for themselves and so advance this whole sluggish thing that's been waiting for decades to happen it seems.

Who will be the next unfortunate celebrity to die? I can think of several now. We, via better public relations, should help by providing them with at least the choice of cryonics instead of the normal cruel and unacceptable death scenarios.

Funny, I thought the posting was appropriate and relevant. Perhaps there's just nothing anyone can suggest or add to this thought. It is a complicated issue. One thing apparent to me is that many people on this "board" are not actually funded members of any cryonics facility. This might give them a very different perspective and maybe one that views this whole thing as somewhat less imperative than truly a matter of "life or death". I think we need to get serious here.( and that is no nasty criticism to anyone in particular.) All the techno. talk and other thoughts on cryonics are more or less no where if the whole thing simply collapses for lack of support. And so I again say that we need some notoriety and much, much better cryonics public relations to get things going and out of stagnation.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/notoriety

no·to·ri·e·ty
n.
The quality or condition of being notorious; ill fame.

Example of use in context: The Alcor Life Extension Foundation gained considerable notoriety from their cryopreservation of Ted Williams, and in the years since, their Executive Board continues to refuse to promise they will never again provide unfunded services for "celebrities" or other persons.

You may have mischosen that word, but you were uncannily right on (except for the part that we need more notoriety, which obviously we do not).

As to the idea that the wealthy and famous are unaware of cryonics, and if told about it would beat down the organizations' doors, I think you might be mistaken. Robert Ettinger if I recall correctly has a story or two to tell about his efforts in trying to get them on board. ettinger@aol.com .

As to the idea that we even need more people signed up for cryonics, I am not sure if we do. When we have a real product to offer, that is proven to work, that will be the time to promote it, and people will prove out the "build it and they will come" principle. For now, we are still in a highly experimental alpha stage, and everyone who is signed up or thinking of being should fully understand it is a very chancy thing as to it ever working out for them to be successfully resuscitated, repaired, and cured. There are probably too many in the current "movement" who do not fully understand that, but should.

FD

You are assuming that people don't know about cryonics, rather than that they know about it, but don't opt for it. I doubt this is true, as certainly most people have at least heard about cryonics. I think the main problem is that, the minute they go to investigate it, they see a lot of amateurish, unprofessional and unethical behavior. I think it's unreasonable to expect the general public to believe that people with little-to-no education in the medical sciences, can perform successful cryogenic preservations. Of course, we don't know how much damage can be repaired, in the future, but I believe a lot more people would sign up, if they knew real medical professionals, using real medical equipment, were going to perform the procedures. I believe cryogenic procedures are a logical extension of existing hypothermic medical procedures. However, for as long as a bunch of layman whose educations consist of 12 weeks of EMT-basic school, with no subsequent experiences other than a few practice runs with a pig, my answer to signing up is still, "Thanks, but no thanks."

If well-funded organizations like Alcor and Suspended Animation would quit playing around and hire some professionals, I believe more people would sign up. Both those organizations can afford to hire professionals, yet they continue to pay laymen salaries in excess of those earned by medical professionals. In addition, there's a whole lot of man-hours that neither I, nor anyone I know working in cryonics, can justify. In other words, a couple dozen people are getting paid a whole lot of money, on a weekly basis, to accomplish very little, and no one seems to give a damn. My guess is, they plan to keep it that way, for as long as possible.

Melody: “If well-funded organizations like Alcor and Suspended Animation would quit playing around and hire some professionals, I believe more people would sign up. Both those organizations can afford to hire professionals, yet they continue to pay laymen salaries in excess of those earned by medical professionals.”

These organizations cannot hire medical professionals for the simple reason that the people who finance and control them will never allow it. It they allowed it, they would lose control and would be pushed out. Cryonics is a highly specialized area of medical science. It should be managed by M.D.s, just as any other area of medicine. Is there a single hospital, or a clinic anywhere in USA that would not be managed by an MD? NO. Such situation would never be allowed to happen. Yet, all we see is that cryonics is being financed and managed by lay people without medical education, who never would be allowed to perform medical procedures in any other area of medicine.

I believe those are the main reasons why the public at large considers cryonics a quackery, if not an outright fraud, or even something resembling a “cult” of misguided. Many rich and famous people are well aware of the cryonics potential, but after researching the situation, they simply do not want to be a part of it. For obvious reasons, as stated above. It is quite clear that the cryonics business model is faulty, in sore need of change. Unless a drastic change occurs and medical doctors and medical professionals enter the field, cryonics will be limping along, on the verge of extinction. Just as it has been limping along, on the verge of extinction for the past 30 years. Despite ongoing huge cash infusions by lay, non-medical people who want to control cryonics.

I am skeptical that there is so much money to go around at those organizations. The prices are high, but the volume is low and overhead is nontrivial. Replacing staff entirely with doctors would probably be very expensive. You would most likely need to pay significantly more than the industry standard in order to attract them, since cryonics is not widely recognized as a medical occupation.

Fortunately the skillset needed to stabilize a patient for future treatment is usually substantially lower than the skillset needed to actually treat a condition. That is what EMTs are for. I just completed an 8-hour class yesterday that certifies me to do CPR and first aid. It made me realize how just that tiny bit of extra knowledge, properly applied at a critical point (while waiting for EMS) could save someone's life.

The mission of a cryo org is to be an ambulance to the future, not to fix what is wrong with the patient. It makes sense to have well-trained laypersons doing most of the work. The team isn't there to diagnose any illness or treat any condition. The most important part is being in the right place at the right time, and following the correct procedure.

Actually designing the procedure in the first place, training the team to follow it properly, evaluating performance, etc. are the areas where a specialist is most called for.

Luke, it's great you got that training. Most of us at UCSF used to hate those trainings. I'd always go away thinking: "This is stupid", "It isn't going to really help." I wasn't then imagining it being used to truly save lives as in cryonics. I was wrong in my negativity.

Oh, now on to Max Moore's philosophy and his "proactionary principle".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactionary_Principle) I strongly maintain that we do need to have some very rich and famous people make the news by opting for cryonics; whereas, my doing it is nowhere and no one will pay any attention to me. We need to think positively about this because it's a very valid way to promote and advance cryonics.

Has the known interest of Ray Kurzweil, Eric Drexler, or Marvin Minsky encouraged anyone to sign up? Perhaps a few, but only a tiny fraction of the number who have read Kurzweil's books. And that readership constitutes an extremely promising audience. If celebrity sponsorship was going to work, we should have seen some sign of it by now.

The most common response to a cryonics sales pitch goes something like this: "Yes, I guess it makes sense, but not for me." There is an invisible but very large gap between "something those other people do" and "something that I will do myself."

Two years ago I made a conference presentation to a dozen or so people, one of whom was Jeff Bezos of Amazon.com. Bezos sat maybe ten feet from me, made eye contact, was friendly, asked numerous very smart questions, seemed genuinely fascinated, and was very receptive. At the end of it, he thanked me much, and walked off to learn about something else. I think he could see why other people were interested in doing it, but I don't think for a moment he considered doing it himself.

Mike Darwin is the only person I know who could goad people into leaping the gap. He seemed to do it by scaring them. "You are all going to die," was his opener. But that kind of thing requires charisma which I, for one, do not possess.

“Fortunately the skillset needed to stabilize a patient for future treatment is usually substantially lower than the skillset needed to actually treat a condition... It makes sense to have well-trained laypersons doing most of the work.”

Sure it does. As the CI-81 proved so decisively to the satisfaction of all. The world could have no better proof...

It appears Luke has been subjected to the same propaganda that has kept cryonics in the dark ages, for many decades.

Luke: "I am skeptical that there is so much money to go around at those organizations.

Luke must be unaware of the budgets of SA and Alcor, and of the additional millions of dollars LEF pours into CCR, 21CM, TransTime, etc., each year.

Luke: "The prices are high, but the volume is low and overhead is nontrivial. Replacing staff entirely with doctors would probably be very expensive."

The overhead could be LOT less than it is, and there is no need to replace the staffs entirely with doctors. You need someone capable of doing a femoral cannulation, (this could be someone who has worked in animal research, or a retired physician assistant who has worked in heart surgery). You need someone capable of gaining IV access on a patient with no blood pressure. Hiring a retired paramedic, or even just having a paramedic group who will provide someone on a "per diem" basis, (with an iron-clad contract requiring someone to show up for cases, of course), would be great, for this purpose. And, you need a perfusionist.

Luke: "You would most likely need to pay significantly more than the industry standard in order to attract them, since cryonics is not widely recognized as a medical occupation.'

This is so not true. I worked at SA for about 75% of what my peers were earning and, if it had not been for what I perceived as a lot of extremely unethical and unprofessional behavior there, it would have been the best job I ever had in my life. The facility was six miles from my home, and the schedule was flexible, so I could come and go as I pleased. Unlike heart surgery, where I was frequently called in the middle of the night, or on the weekends, we didn't have even one case, while I was at SA. In addition, there were some really excellent benefits, like four weeks of paid vacation.

Luke: "The mission of a cryo org is to be an ambulance to the future, not to fix what is wrong with the patient. It makes sense to have well-trained laypersons doing most of the work. The team isn't there to diagnose any illness or treat any condition. The most important part is being in the right place at the right time, and following the correct procedure.

I'm sorry, but a team of laymen is likely to be able to gain IV access on a patient with no blood pressure, and even more unlikely to perform a whole-body washout perfusion procedure, without inflicting additional, (and probably severe), damage.

Luke: "Actually designing the procedure in the first place, training the team to follow it properly, evaluating performance, etc. are the areas where a specialist is most called for."

Paramedics and perfusionists spend many months, performing procedures on human patients, with an experienced instructor standing over their shoulders. If a paramedic student can't get an IV in pretty quickly, he gets pushed to the side, so that some who can do it can help the patient. I spend six months, perfusing more than 100 patients in heart surgery, with an instructor seated beside me. It's naive to think that laymen can properly perform these tasks, adequately, and without inflicting additional damage. Finally, it's BEYOND ridiculous to think that a company such as SA should be paying close to a million dollars a year on a handful of staff members, a few consultants, and retaining a group of medical professionals but not requiring them to actually show up for cases. I've worked there, and there is no need for them to be paying for 240 man-hours a week. They would be a much better company if they were in a much smaller facility, with two full-time staff members and a couple dozen medical professionals rotating call. Something like that would probably cost half of their current budget.

... there is no need to replace the staffs entirely with doctors. You need someone capable of doing a femoral cannulation, (this could be someone who has worked in animal research, or a retired physician assistant who has worked in heart surgery). You need someone capable of gaining IV access on a patient with no blood pressure. Hiring a retired paramedic, or even just having a paramedic group who will provide someone on a "per diem" basis, (with an iron-clad contract requiring someone to show up for cases, of course), would be great, for this purpose. And, you need a perfusionist.

This actually sounds very feasable, I am impressed. About how much would it cost? Would $30,000 be plenty? What I have in mind is that perhaps a local cryonics group could arrange something like this for their members based on life insurance (with subsequent storage at CI for the standard $28,000).

Paramedics and perfusionists spend many months, performing procedures on human patients, with an experienced instructor standing over their shoulders. If a paramedic student can't get an IV in pretty quickly, he gets pushed to the side, so that some who can do it can help the patient. I spend six months, perfusing more than 100 patients in heart surgery, with an instructor seated beside me. It's naive to think that laymen can properly perform these tasks, adequately, and without inflicting additional damage.

I see your point. The thing is, even if the trained team of laymen only lose one patient out of 100 that a professional could have saved, that's still a significant loss. None of us wants to be that one patient. So I think you are right about this... If it is really relatively inexpensive to hire a local team of paramedics (or retired paramedics), it sounds like that could be the best option available.

"If it is really relatively inexpensive to hire a local team of paramedics (or retired paramedics), it sounds like that could be the best option available."

Full-time and part-time arrangements have both been tried.

A team of 8 paramedics was retained under a consultancy contract with Alcor in 2002/2003, prior to the Larry Johnson conflict.

When SA was created by David Hayes and David Shumaker, one of its four fulltime staff was a paramedic. He participated in an SA case and was at the SA Open House three years ago, at which time he made it clear that his services were still available for cryonics cases. I don't know his current status.

Between 7 and 10 paramedics (the number varied over time) were retained under a consultancy contract with Suspended Animation in, I think, 2004 and 2005. I lack information on their current status. Three of them had previously participated in Alcor cases, under contract with Alcor.

Alcor member Don Laughlin has his own fulltime emergency medical team, who I believe are well qualified and have been Alcor-trained.

The current team leader at Alcor (employed on a fulltime basis) is a paramedic. His fulltime predecessor at Alcor was a paramedic, and his fulltime predecessor at Alcor was a paramedic.

At least one fulltime SA employee is qualified as an EMT.

I believe that everything I have stated above has been made public at some time or other. You can learn a lot by reading archival materials on Alcor's web site. Since I am not as active in cryonics as I used to be, I may have missed some recent developments. If you want to know more, I suggest you contact the organizations yourself.

Note that CI does not have any emergency medical staff as employees or consultants, because CI does not do its own standby-transport procedures.

Platt: "Full-time and part-time arrangements have both been tried."

Both have been tried, but the professionals have most often run into serious conflicts with the other staff members, (especially highly-paid management figures), who usually know little-to-nothing about related, well-established, hypothermic medical procedures. In my opinion, there's a reluctance to follow the advice of medical professionals, because it usually means buying and modifying existing medical equipment, which brings an end to certain ill-advised and costly design and fabrication projects, on which some people are making a whole lot of money.

Platt: "A team of 8 paramedics was retained under a consultancy contract with Alcor in 2002/2003, prior to the Larry Johnson conflict.

I believe Larry Johnson had much the same experience, as I, and that he witnessed a lot of unprofessional and unethical behavior. I think this has been true, for most medical professionals who have had a desire to work in cryonics. Does Luke know Larry Johnson and I were hired by the same person, and that after we "blew the whistle" that same person accused both of us of stealing non-disclosure forms we never signed, (and various other false transgressions)? After I threatened that person with a civil lawsuit, he had to publish a corrective statement.

Platt: "When SA was created by David Hayes and David Shumaker, one of its four fulltime staff was a paramedic. He participated in an SA case and was at the SA Open House three years ago, at which time he made it clear that his services were still available for cryonics cases. I don't know his current status."

Was this paramedic, who "made it clear his services were still available," three years ago, even called for the botched SA/CI-81 case, two years ago??? (In case Luke isn't aware, SA sent three people with no medical, or cryonics case, experience, whatsoever. I was criticized in the SA case report, for not being there, when I wasn't even called.)

Platt: "Between 7 and 10 paramedics (the number varied over time) were retained under a consultancy contract with Suspended Animation in, I think, 2004 and 2005."

Their SA contracts, foolishly, did not require any of the paramedics to show up for cases. Their management was paid $1,000 a month, to supply the names of ten people, and the paramedics, themselves, were paid at about four times the usual hourly rate of paramedics, to attend training sessions. The paramedics often complained that the SA staff didn't listen to their advice, and the SA staff complained that the paramedics "didn't do as they were told." There was no respect, in either direction, in that relationship, and I was not surprised when none of them showed up for the CI-81 case.

Platt: "The current team leader at Alcor (employed on a fulltime basis) is a paramedic. His fulltime predecessor at Alcor was a paramedic, and his fulltime predecessor at Alcor was a paramedic."

Are we talking about Bill Voice and Larry Johnson, as the predecessors? I don't believe either of those people had good working relationships at Alcor. I hope things are different for Mr. Drake, but this is still the "honeymoon period," for him.

Platt: "At least one fulltime SA employee is qualified as an EMT."

After my public criticisms of the SA staff members who were sent to the CI-81 case, this person, (who was one of the CI-81 team members), was sent to EMT-Basic school. EMT-B school usually lasts 12 weeks, and students are not even taught to insert IV's, as EMT-B's are not allowed to do invasive procedures. They are taught a lot of other irrelevant tasks, such as immobilizing the patient in case of neck/spinal injuries or broken limbs, and how to deliver babies, (vaginal deliveries, not C-section). It takes a lot of practice to gain IV access to a patient with LOW blood pressure. Someone who has had only EMT-B training is unlikely to be able to gain access, on a patient who has NO blood pressure. SA might as well have simply sent their staff members to BLS class, something I suggested they do when I was there. While the contract with the paramedics was flawed, in that it didn't require any of them to show up for cases, it did call for the training of SA staff members, but that was never taken advantage of. I believe the salary of the staff member Platt is referring to, is three times the average starting salary of an EMT, (and I don't believe that person's additional duties warrant such a salary).
Starting EMT Salaries - The average starting emergency medical technician salary is $19,000 to 24,000, nationally."http://www.techniciansalaries.com/profession/emt.html

Platt: "I believe that everything I have stated above has been made public at some time or other. You can learn a lot by reading archival materials on Alcor's web site. Since I am not as active in cryonics as I used to be, I may have missed some recent developments. If you want to know more, I suggest you contact the organizations yourself."

If Luke does contact the organizations, I hope he will post the information he receives. "Inquiring minds," like FD and I, want to know.

put in the way that you put it.

I don't know what the truth is.

I do wonder, however, how old is saul kent? Various people here on this forum have said that he is the major money backer of the various endeavors being discussed here.

and take these issues up with him

...I worked for him, remember?

He seemed satisfied with the amateur building projects, at SA. He seemed as unaware of existing medical equipment, as the others, to me. I can't be sure, but I think he frequently mistakes someone's desire to preserve their generous income as "loyalty." In my opinion, lot of people working in cryonics are not "loyal" to providing the best possible patient care, OR to advancing the science of cryonics. In fact, I know a few who I don't believe are interested in cryonics, at all...other than their paychecks, that is.

from what the CI people have said here, you have made positive contributions to cryonics and continue to do so.

From what you said here, if even part of it is true, there are possibly some serious issues with respect to how certain monies from certain cryonics investors are being used.
And I have to give what you say some credence. It has the ring of truth, at least to some degree. At least from what I have read here. Obviously, my knowledge of the situation is limited.

But if these cryonics investors have already been presented with the evidence, and they have decided not to do anything, then what can you do about it by raising the same issues again and again publicly here on this forum.

Again, I have to ask--what is it you expect to accomplish here?

I wonder if you should just put this behind you and continue to do what work you can in cryonics if that is what you want.

And I would think that your skills would be wanted in cryonics.

Vocabulary isn't really the issue, but the need for committed people to get things moving. Generally in the business community, competition is helpful, but maybe it's not here. Having excellent p.r. is imperative and seems definitely lacking. I am still convinced from lots of personal experience that very few people understand what cryonics is all about or have ever heard of it. "Publicity", hopefully favorable, would definitely help. There are volunteers or employees who welcome new members, but then there seems to be lacking a supportive environment for them once enrolled. I want to see this work. How can we make it work? That is the question.

Suggest you research the history of this field (cryonet.org is searchable). For more than 40 years, cryonics has received copious press coverage, to the point where I would guess at least one-quarter of the adult US population has a rough idea of what it means. And, of course, anyone can find the organizations online. If publicity was going to work, surely it would have worked years ago.

I see two ways to increase membership: Personal interaction with potential clients, and improving the procedures to the point where they encourage greater confidence. I don't see any shortcuts.

Doesn't it stand to reason that the fact that there are virtually no cryopreserved celebrities is having an impact on the total number of people getting signed up?

Walt Disney: An urban myth -- he was cremated.
Ted Williams: Major scandal. Consent not documented.
Michael Jackson: Didn't make arrangements, may be plastinated.

There's really nobody else, is there? Honestly if Ted is the only celebrity alive when I wake up, that's going to be disappointing. I'm not a baseball fan.

Well, Luke, let me put it this way: What major life-changing investment have you made, simply because a famous person did the same thing?

If you were talking about a celebrity *endorsement,* with some character like William Shatner doing a half-hour infomercial, I *might* expect a few results. But just having a famous person in a Dewar would probably elicit a shrug-response such as, "Famous people do that kind of thing."

and besides, why does madison avenue use celebrities to help sell their products?

Publicity and advertising works, but it has to have carefully selected target. I know of a successful mail campaign to sell cemetery plots. Ad for cryo services starring Michael Jordan during Super Bowl is unlikely to work, but an article, along with an advertisement in magazine Modern Maturity, targeted at seniors might by successful. Unfortunately it was never tried.

As for the power of charisma and the art of persuasion it works for anything else. For example, charismatic Jim Jones convinced all 909 members in his community to voluntarily commit suicide. It hard to see why out of everything else cryonics would be the sole exception. (For the challenged: Not for suicide, but for cryo arrangements.)

George

900 in 40 years? The lightning alone claimed more victims than that.

Is that we don't seem to have much of it around here.

All this fighting that is going on really seems to be a lack of charisma more than anything... People make people mad, without really meaning to. They say insensitive things and expect the other person to be the one who is calm and collected enough to give a rational reply.

I sometimes think we need a psychologist to come in and start lecturing about emotional coping mechanisms. Cryo arrangements are complicated and it is an emotionally complicated thing to handle for anyone -- whether they are a would-be cryonicist or a relative. This adds to the level of volatility in discussions.

I think the greater emotional complexity is the main barrier that keeps people from taking the cryo option in this society... It is so much emotionally simpler to let them bury or cremate you and "have done with it" than it is to make special arrangements for a complex procedure that has to be performed right after you take your last breath, and might not even work.

As for the power of charisma and the art of persuasion it works for anything else. For example, charismatic Jim Jones convinced all 909 members in his community to voluntarily commit suicide. It hard to see why out of everything else cryonics would be the sole exception. (For the challenged: Not for suicide, but for cryo arrangements.)

Thanks for giving us that clarification explicitly -- I can picture The Anticult's response right now if you hadn't. :P

Another thing about emotional complexity is that charisma tends to involve reducing it. Unfortunately, Jim Jones was able to make 909 people feel like it was less emotionally complicated to drink the kool-aid than it was to go on living.

In today's world, most people are making a similar choice, mortal decay instead of cryostasis, for that same reason.

"Unfortunately, Jim Jones was able to make 909 people feel like it was less emotionally complicated to drink the kool-aid than it was to go on living."

Actually it was not about preference to drink cyanide-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid (misidentified as Kool-Aid) rather than continue emotionally complicated living. In fact, it was because charismatic Jim Jones convinced the group that CIA men are about to parachute to their village, then torture and kill all of them.