You guys are very aware of the fact that I am an open book when it comes to me and my dogs. I am posting this topic for all to see one of the undesirable traits found in the Fiddler line. The below pictures are of a pup out of Bo'Darc Fiddlin Wendy by Bo'Darc Elhew Delivery. To those that may not know what you looking at this is referred to as “Cherry Eye”. I have seen this several times over the years, as it has now been 16 years since I raised my first litter of pointer pups by a son of CH. Fiddler’s Ace.
My experience with cherry eye has been that it shows up in young dogs, generally 6 months old or younger. There is no way that I am aware of, to tell which pup this will happen to. The strangest aspect of this dilemma is that it appears literally overnight.
To my knowledge there are two schools of thought on correcting cherry eye. Both require surgery. Below is a fairly detailed overview of the treatment of replacing the gland that I copied from marvistavet.

OPTION ONE - REPLACING THE GLAND

This treatment of "Cherry Eye" is replacement of the gland in its proper location. There are two techniques for doing this. The traditional “tucking” method is probably most commonly performed. Here, a single stitch is permanently placed drawing the gland back where it belongs. Complications are uncommon but the owner should be aware of the following possibilities:
• If the stitch unties, the surface of the eye could become scratched by the suture. If this occurs, the eye will become suddenly painful and the suture thread may be visable. The suture can be removed and the problem solved.

• The tuck may not be anchored well enough to hold permanently. In fact, this surgery is notorious for this type of failure and frequently a second tuck is needed. If this occurs, we recommend that a board certified ophthalmologist perform the second surgery to maximize the chances of permanent resolution.

• Sometimes Cherry Eye is accompanied by other eyelid problems which make the repair more difficult or less likely to succeed. In these cases, again, if the simple surgery is not adequate, we recommend that a veterinary ophthalmologist perform the second surgery to maximize the chances of a permanent resolution.
In a newer surgical technique a wedge of tissue is removed from directly over the actual gland. This technique is more challenging as it is not easy to determine how much tissue to remove. Tiny stitches which will eventually dissolve are used to close the gap so that the tightening of the incision margins pushes the gland back in place. Complications may include:
• Inflammation or swelling as the stitches dissolve.

• Inadequate tightening of the tissue gap may lead to recurrence of the Cherry Eye. As mentioned, if the surgery fails, a veterinary ophthalmologist should perform the second surgery.

• Failure of the stitches to hold and associated discomfort. Loose stitches could injure the eye depending on the type of suture used.
Sometimes both surgical techniques are used in the same eye to achieve a good replacement. Harmful complications from Cherry Eye surgery are unusual but recurrence of the Cherry Eye is not. If a Cherry Eye recurs it is important to let your veterinarian know so that a second surgery either with your normal veterinarian or with an ophthalmology specialist can be planned. An owner should expect some postoperative swelling after Cherry Eye repair but this should resolve and the eye should be comfortable and normal in appearance after about a week. If the eye appears suddenly painful or unusual in appearance, it is important that it be rechecked as soon as possible.

Alrighty then....hopefully that didn't scare the pee-waddin out of ya and as you would expect from all of the above, this kind of treatment can and does run into a lot of money.

OPTION TWO - REMOVING THE GLAND

This is the treatment that I have personally ALWAYS followed. My vet uses a numbing agent something like Novocain on the gland, he then clamps a hemostat across the bottom length of the gland, then using a scalpel blade, removes it completely. I have had folks tell me that this will cause the dog to have a “dry eye”. To the best of my knowledge, no dog that I have had this surgery performed on, has had any adverse or negative affects from it’s removal.
As always, I just want everyone that shows up here to be as informed about their dogs as possible. The decision will ultimately be yours on how to treat this matter, should this condition show up and no I do not refund money or replace pups that this happens to. In my opinion it is a VERY insignificant, bump in the road, over the long term of having dogs from this family. I have told you my choice on the matter. If you own or breed Fiddler bred dogs, just know that this can and will happen eventually. Below are the pictures of my pup before and a day after the removal surgery.









"Your legacy should be that you made it better than it was when you got it."

a quote from Lee Iacocca

The first pointer I ever owned was the last to go out of a litter because people were put off by a cherry eye...not because he wasn't a good pup...he was a real picture otherwise, and how I ultimately got hooked on the breed. It did turn out to be no big deal to fix, as Mike says.

Mike do you consider this a genetic flaw? I had one guy tell me that his vet told him it was an alergy. I don't know. I think most people consider it a genetic flaw. By genetic flaw I mean something that is carried in the gene. Something in the genepool. Would you say that a dog with cherry eye is more likely to reproduce cherry eye?

Tommy....I really haven't discussed this matter with the vet I am using now. While he was preforming the surgery on the dog pictured above, I was discussing bird and deer hunting with him. I met the vet that I am using now, in the field, literally. We were hunting the same ranch. My previous vet told me that cherry eye was a form of something along the lines of a canine VD. At the time, I was seeing cherry eye quite regular. He told me sometime later that I and my dogs had convinced him that cherry eye was genetic.
The other reason I feel that cherry eye is genetic, is that several other breeders that I have spoke with over the years, have seen cherry eye in their Fiddler bred dogs. I have a friend that "freaked" the first time this happen to him. Most of the pups from a Fiddler bred litter he raised, had cherry eye almost simultainiously. He wasn't familiar at all with cherry eye and put the pups down as he thought that the pups were all messed up.
I am no vet by any means but experience has given me good grounds to think this is very much genetic....

"Your legacy should be that you made it better than it was when you got it."

a quote from Lee Iacocca

Sometimes I get so pissed off in trying to type something on this forum. One accidental stroke of a key and, wah-lah.it disappears...CRAP

O.K. Tommy, I'm gonna try this again, using Microsoft word, so I can save it from time to time, since I don't type so well and I've already just erased 20 minutes worth of typing.

Let me try to explain this cherry eye appearance as I see it in my feeble mind. I'm going to use a male, Mr. What's His Name as our stud dog. He had cherry eye as a pup but had it removed. Lets breed him to two females. The first one is Miss Whodatdamdog, a gyp from a completely different family from our male. Our second female is Miss What's Her Bucket, a gyp from the same family as the male. In our first mating to the unrelated female, the appearance of cherry eye did not manifest itself, but it is still there, as we used a male that we know carries this trait. We didn't eliminate the cherry eye; we just buried it a little deeper with a fresh coat of new unrelated genetics over the top. Alright let bred him to Miss What's Her Bucket, the related female. Let say she did not have cherry eye, yet some of her littermates did, which means to me that both her sire and dam are carriers of the trait. It would not surprise me to see two or three pups that develop cherry eye.

Now let use a real example, the pup that's pictured above. She is a daughter of Bo'Darc Fiddlin Wendy out of Bo'Darc Elhew Delivery. Neither Wendy nor Hoss had cherry eye. This litter represents a COI of 9.5 and CH. Fiddler's Ace has the probability of being 21.3% in any given pup. There are 3 pups, 1 male 2 females. One pup ends up with cherry eye. I was describing the looks and build of these pups to Scooter Douglass the other day. In describing the pups to Scooter, I told him the females vary in type with one following an Elhew type the other a Fiddler type, guess which one ended up with the cherry eye?

To me Tommy it will remain a choice of the breeder. Do I breed a known carrier? If the dog was outstanding, it would be hard for me not to. However the gravity of that decision means you will NOT eliminate the cherry eye. By purposefully injecting that back into your breeding program, you will have a hard time getting rid of it. To my recollection, I have not bred a known carrier. As I said earlier, the cherry eye to me is rather insignificant, so if I had an outstanding individual that the cherry eye was the only strike against them, yet there were so many other good, great ,outstanding attributes about them, it would be very hard for me to overlook that animal as a potential breeder. I mean if you breed two dogs that do not have cherry eye, and it still shows up, what then does it matter to breed one that does have it? Another question that the breeder has to ponder. Another question is...is this cherry eye really genetic? Not much help am I Tommy!

Thanks Mike. I appreciate you help.

Hi Everyone just found the site and have enjoyed reading different threads so far. my name is Larry Lowell and I'm a pointing dog trainer and GSP breeder. I found the site by doing some dog line research on an EP puppy I'm getting from Caladens Kennel. That said and on topic with the thread.

Last summer I had two dogs from the same owner come in for training. I kenneled them up together. Towards the end of the summer they got into a fight. One of the two males got a few bits on his head but was ok. The next day I took him out of his crate and to put him into his kennel and noticed that the dog had got cherry eye over the night. I took this dog to the vet and he told me that cherry eye is caused by damage to the internal eyelid, and that once it swells only surgery will make it go away. Then the same thing happend a few months ago with an 8 month old pup of mine name Uly. I was watching two pups rough housing and chasing each other around the yard etc... The other pup got a bit rough and bit Uly alittle hard right in the face at her eye, Uly gave a yelp etc... A few mins later both pups came running up to me for some love, at that point I can see Ulys eye was irritated, she was blinking like she had something in it. I looked at it to make sure she didnt have anything stuck in it, but couldnt find anything. The next night as I was putting the dogs up I noticed Uly had cherry eye in that eye.

I've never seen cherry eye in any pointing breed and never had one of my own dogs get it until both these dogs came down with it. The one thing both these cases had in common is being bit in the face, around the eye. I was there to confirm both, so I know thats what happened. Neither of these dogs are related, one belonged to a customer and one belonged to me.

I hope its like my vet said in that its caused by damage to the internal eyelid, and not genetic. If it is genetic I wonder if it has more to do with droopy eye lids ? lids that are exposing more internal eyelid tissue ?

Larry Lowell