http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=22326&page=1

AAF, There is another scenario: The universe has always existed, and God has always existed. This allows God to act within his universe. As I pointed out in another post, the future hasn't been formed yet, because the next instant's choices cannot be made until the present has appeared.

I see the hand of God acting in everything. Did he create evil? No, he created entities that had a choice. How does he do it? If I was him, I wouldn't tell. You have probably noticed that I'm not God.

Curt;
Almost every argument that can be made for or against the existence of God is in that huge Sci-Forum Thread.

So, if you can afford the time, wade through it; and hopefully it will either convert you to Aaron's side and my side; or it will make a great theologian and master of divinity out of you!

Did you see God theorized as a selective force which encourages more complex universes?

As I like to call it, The Gardener.

Do you know what?
The Hypothesis of Creation Out of Nothing is not in very bad shape
logically and mathematically and physically and philosophically and at all levels as Einstein's Hypothesis of
Relativity (the Special one and the General one)after all!

AAF,"Do you know what?
The Hypothesis of Creation Out of Nothing is not in very bad shape logically and mathematically and physically and philosophically and at all levels as Einstein's Hypothesis of
Relativity (the Special one and the General one)after all!"

Well AAF, from what I understand we can either, 1. be created out of nothing or, 2. we can exist without having been created or, 3.?

bob s

Would you take my word for it, Bob?

The Eternal Universe, with no beginning and no end, is a self-evident truth, regardless of what the Creationists and the Relativists and the Pagans think of it.

Of course I take your word for it AAF, you choose #2, I'm OK with that.

bob s.

Ok, you guys, there are two things that cannot be discussed these days: Politics and religion. So what else is there?

I shall not be trying to convert or transform anyone anywhere to anything. I am only seeking the understanding of reality. I do not think reality resides in my head. I don't mind if Cinci and Max do not agree with me. They have sealed my conviction that I understand reality better than they. Am I better than them? I doubt it.

I agree with AAF: "The Eternal Universe, with no beginning and no end, is a self-evident truth."

Probably all of you disagree that an eternal being would exist in an eternal domain.

I have noted already, that the future at any time has to form itself out of the ever-changing present. So, what kind of monster could know the future? By studying "unpopular" historical facts, even lowly I have made short term predictions, for example on the economy. Weathermen have some success predicting weather. So yes, my God knows the future. How does he do it? I'm sure it is a tightly held secret. Do the TV preachers know the future? I doubt it.

Bob s said: "we can either, 1. be created out of nothing or, 2. we can exist without having been created or, 3.?"

I think the choice is #3. the Universe is eternal, creation goes on within it. Evolution goes on, as far as the future depends upon the ever-changing present, but panspermia is a more likely scenario for life here. Watson showed that the rule is survival of the "luckiest," not the "fittest."

Well said, Curt & Bob!

Nevertheless, I would like to point out that the fear of death that horrible fact of nature is the main root of all religions and all beliefs in this hypothetical entity we call 'God' or the 'Supreme Lord of the Universe',...etc...

So, to dispose once and for all of this 'God' and those religions of His, I put forwards the following promises of acquiring immortality without any help from Him or from the shamans in His many temples:

There are two very attractive promises of immortality.

The first promise is based on science or as
S. Freud used to say ‘Our Puny God’.

The second promise is based on infinity. This promise is so gigantic and so magnificent to such a degree that makes even the most grandiose promises of religion look stingy, meager, and worthless.

The two promises of Immortality:

[1] The Puny God’s Promise:

The following axiom is to be held as self-evident:

‘Every thing that laws of nature can do, science, given enough time, can do it as well’.

Nature makes human bodies quite easily.
Science is, therefore, bound to make human bodies in the future quite easily as well.

At some point in the future (my conservative guess: around the Year 10,000 A. D.), science will be able to trace back, re-design, and manufacture the bodies of all past generations. At the same time, science will be able to identify, follow, and capture their very weak brain waves, which travel at this very moment at the speed of light among the stars. Science, then, will restore those electromagnetic carriers of feelings and memories to the exact copies of their original bodies. And voila! They all will be back to life.

The only possible problem, in this regard, is that the future decision makers can be very choosy and fussy and resurrect only very few important luminaries. For this reason, we have to make sure that there will be always a Pope in the Vatican and Pro-life groups in U.S.A. to defend the right of back to life for all people regardless of their relative merits.

[2] Infinity’s Promise:

The argument, here, is too long and too subtle to expound in this post.

Let me just say that if the amount of matter is infinite, then there must be an infinite exact copies of you throughout the Universe and at all times.

You are literally infinite, indestructible, and immortal.

AAF, that's all well and good. (The idea that there are extra copies of me around,) but probably if we met face to face, one of us would probably kill the other. [copies meeting, that is, not you and I]

I am sure that I am unique, copies won't do. It's just like the adds I get for Rolex watches. I don't even bother to look.

As far as men creating men out of stuff rather than the usual route, that is the dream of the Talmudists and other wanna be gods. I doubt that they will produce anything but monsters at best.

You are right about the fear of death, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. Organized religion uses that for black mail.

If God can do anything, which I believe, why does He require money from his devotees, when He can just dig it up off the streets of heaven? I'm a real tight wad, but have been known to help my friends, and sometimes, those in dire need. But why should I, when the Government takes everything I own and gives it to the needy, anyway? [Mainly themselves, of course.]

I believe its all a test: Each of us has true freedom of choice, with in limits of course. We can't just decide to live in outer space, for example. The choice is whether we will submit to His will, or try to supplant Him on the Throne. How does one Find His will? I guess, Just ask. If you don't get an answer, you are free to do what ever you want. Just don't include me as your subject.

EMF radiates away from the source, so any "track back" would involve exceeding the speed of light to bring the info back to the source. You definitely have to believe in that for your idea to bear fruit.

I'm not going to trust any elitist for anything to do with me, therefore I believe in God, just on that account alone. especially the afterlife.

So, in a nutshell, Curt, the previous dandy POST fails to make you singing “Losing My Religion” with R.E.M & others: http://www.last.fm/music/Preluders/_/Losing+My+Religion

Well, maybe next time!

In any case, an exact copy of you means literally an exact copy of you; and that implies necessarily that there would be absolutely nothing among your attributes as a person left out or allowed to be annihilated or to go kaput or to vanish from the Universe forever. What else do you want Infinity & Immortality do for you? Surely, in the midst of all those infinite exact copies of you, you're still unique and identifiable in the strict sense of the logical law of identity; but, in this case, the actual content of identity and the law of identity is reduced to mere unique values of space and time co-ordinates to define your unique place in the vast Universe and nothing else at all. It follows, therefore, that the promise of your immortality by Infinity is very attractive indeed and should not be rejected or turned down out of hand; right; Curt?

Curt, in your post of October 2, 2008, 12:34 AM, I think you misunderstood Bob's choices which I read it to be;
"1. be created out of nothing," I read as creationism.
"2. we can exist without having been created," I read as eternalism.
or, "3. ?." Which I don't understand what "?" is. You read it as eternalism.
If Bob has a third choice I wish he would just say so instead of being cryptic.

He broke the mould. take your pick of definitions:

1. loose soil rich in organic matter [syn: mold]
2. the distinctive form in which a thing is made; "pottery of this cast was found throughout the region" [syn: cast]
3. the process of becoming mildewed [syn: mildew]
4. a fungus that produces a superficial growth on various kinds of damp or decaying organic matter [syn: mold]
5. a dish or dessert that is formed in or on a mold; "a lobster mold"; "a gelatin dessert made in a mold" [syn: mold]
6. a distinctive nature, character, or type; "a leader in the mold of her predecessors" [syn: mold]
7. sculpture produced by molding [syn: mold]
8. container into which liquid is poured to create a given shape when it hardens [syn: mold]

AAF: I didn't state that I was religious, I did state that I believed in God. The two are poles apart.(as in North and South, not as in Polacks)

Innominate: I always choose the "or other" when given a choice. Cryptic? Naw, Just leaving the imagination door open, as if I wouldn't open it without authority.

While Curt is busy playing Santa Claus for happy kids, I take this opportunity to do some enlightenment and pay homage to the Goddess of Reason!



Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'


Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average. ...

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.

A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-%27less-likely-to-believe-in-God%27.html

http://chesterton.org/gkc/historian/antireligious.html

AAF said: "While Curt is busy playing Santa Claus for happy kids, I take this opportunity to do some enlightenment and pay homage to the Goddess of Reason! Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God'"

Curt says: According to some, the last thing I am is benevolent. Now, AAF, Here is what I have to say about "intelligent people:" It is supposedly "intelligent people" who have brought us this current economic and political farce. The situation is not just happenstance luck and the operation of chaotic interactions; there do exist greedy, "intelligent people," who will stop at nothing to steal the created wealth of others through theft and deception.

They have connived their way into the top positions of the media, and the "government." Their general policy is Socialism. They are atheists, except as to thinking that they are the God Head. Their belief is that they are "intelligent people." So, pleeaze do not suggest that I go along with the gestalt of the "intelligent people."

Now, the first thing an all knowing, eternal intelligent being needs is an eternal domain in which to have eternal dominion. This requires a universe without beginning or end. If that being is less than the universe it self, which I believe, the being must have instant communication to know what is happening through out "his" domain, and instant travel to be in various places without the loss of useless time spent "en route." (To "return before you left" requires being two absolutely identical people, since "instantly is as fast as travel can go.)

So, one can be intelligent and still believe in "God." As you say, this post would be end less if I don't just stop some where.

Well, Curt was absent for few days.

To explain his absence, I employed two hypotheses:

The first hypothesis says that Curt is playing Santa.

The second hypothesis asserts that Curt is cutting down little trees for Christmas.

So, I had to choose; and I chose the first hypothesis because I like it; and because playing Santa is more glamorous than cutting down little trees!

Anyway, I thought you might like this 'hot air' about the Cosmos; follow the link:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/

AAF, My laptop responded to a curse or spell cast by probably Ted Iggy or Stanley. The touch pad and all the USB ports are not recognized. So, I have to learn how to navigate via keyboard.

This joker at your link has no clue. A real mainstreamer non thinker. I came across this site a long time ago. He has yet to respond to my e-mails.

So, my understanding is: Eternal existence of the Universe: no Big bang.
Eternal, possibly external existence of the Creator. Can one ever return physically to the past by going really fast? No, instantaneous travel can only take you some where else and then return you an instant later to were you just were. Can one travel into the future by going really fast? No. you can only get somewhere else, really fast, and when you get back, really fast, it will only be an instant later.

I didn't cut any trees to worship; only dead ones for firewood.

Moving fast doesn't take you into the future, it only moves your "present," (your "now,") from here to where ever you are going. You future is still ahead of you and your past is chiseled in stone behind you. When you get back to where you left, you will be as old as your peers, and aged as long as you've been gone.

Two identical "me's" would allow me to appear in two places at once, (I could get back before I left.) but what would allow the two of us to know the history of the other, continuously and instantly ?