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EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

January 28 2009 at 10:56 AM
 

 
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026831.500-what-makes-the-universe-tick.html
"General relativity knits together space, time and gravity. Confounding all common sense, how time passes in Einstein's universe depends on what you are doing and where you are. Clocks run faster when the pull of gravity is weaker, so if you live up a skyscraper you age ever so slightly faster than you would if you lived on the ground floor, where Earth's gravitational tug is stronger. "General relativity completely changed our understanding of time," says Carlo Rovelli, a theoretical physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France.....It is still not clear who is right, says John Norton, a philosopher based at the University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Norton is hesitant to express it, but his instinct - and the consensus in physics - seems to be that space and time exist on their own. The trouble with this idea, though, is that it doesn't sit well with relativity, which describes space-time as a malleable fabric whose geometry can be changed by the gravity of stars, planets and matter."

http://philosophy.ucsd.edu/faculty/ccallender/index_files/physics%20against%20tense.doc
Craig Callender: "In my opinion, by far the best way for the tenser to respond to Putnam et al is to adopt the Lorentz 1915 interpretation of time dilation and Fitzgerald contraction. Lorentz attributed these effects (and hence the famous null results regarding an aether) to the Lorentz invariance of the dynamical laws governing matter and radiation, not to spacetime structure. On this view, Lorentz invariance is not a spacetime symmetry but a dynamical symmetry, and the special relativistic effects of dilation and contraction are not purely kinematical. The background spacetime is Newtonian or neo-Newtonian, not Minkowskian. Both Newtonian and neo-Newtonian spacetime include a global absolute simultaneity among their invariant structures (with Newtonian spacetime singling out one of neo-Newtonian spacetimes many preferred inertial frames as the rest frame). On this picture, there is no relativity of simultaneity and spacetime is uniquely decomposable into space and time."

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/35992/title/It%E2%80%99s_Likely_That_Times_Are_Changing
"A century ago, mathematician Hermann Minkowski famously merged space with time, establishing a new foundation for physics; today physicists are rethinking how the two should fit together....Einsteins belief that time is illusory did not stem from a mere devotion to Newtonian determinism. After all, he had disregarded Newton before, rewriting the laws of motion that underpinned deterministic philosophy in the first place. In so doing, Einstein introduced a new notion of time, more radical than even he at first realized. In fact, the view of time that Einstein adopted was first articulated by his onetime math teacher in a famous lecture delivered one century ago. That lecture, by the German mathematician Hermann Minkowski, established a new arena for the presentation of physics, a new vision of the nature of reality redefining the mathematics of existence. The lecture was titled Space and Time, and it introduced to the world the marriage of the two, now known as spacetime. It was a good marriage, but lately physicists passion for spacetime has begun to diminish. And some are starting to whisper about possible grounds for divorce."

Clearly Einsteinians are ready for divorce but salaries should remain unchanged. That is the only problem.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com

 
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AuthorReply

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 7 2009, 3:53 AM 

Pentcho Valev wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026831.500-what-makes-the-universe-tick.html
> "General relativity knits together space, time and gravity.
> Confounding all common sense, how time passes in Einstein's universe
> depends on what you are doing and where you are. Clocks run faster
> when the pull of gravity is weaker, so if you live up a skyscraper you
> age ever so slightly faster than you would if you lived on the ground
> floor, where Earth's gravitational tug is stronger. "General
> relativity completely changed our understanding of time," says Carlo
> Rovelli, a theoretical physicist at the University of the
> Mediterranean in Marseille, France.....It is still not clear who is
> right, says John Norton, a philosopher based at the University of
> Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Norton is hesitant to express it, but his
> instinct - and the consensus in physics - seems to be that space and
> time exist on their own. The trouble with this idea, though, is that
> it doesn't sit well with relativity, which describes space-time as a
> malleable fabric whose geometry can be changed by the gravity of
> stars, planets and matter."
>
> http://philosophy.ucsd.edu/faculty/ccallender/index_files/physics%20against%20tense.doc
> Craig Callender: "In my opinion, by far the best way for the tenser to
> respond to Putnam et al is to adopt the Lorentz 1915 interpretation of
> time dilation and Fitzgerald contraction. Lorentz attributed these
> effects (and hence the famous null results regarding an aether) to the
> Lorentz invariance of the dynamical laws governing matter and
> radiation, not to spacetime structure. On this view, Lorentz
> invariance is not a spacetime symmetry but a dynamical symmetry, and
> the special relativistic effects of dilation and contraction are not
> purely kinematical. The background spacetime is Newtonian or neo-
> Newtonian, not Minkowskian. Both Newtonian and neo-Newtonian spacetime
> include a global absolute simultaneity among their invariant
> structures (with Newtonian spacetime singling out one of neo-Newtonian
> spacetimes many preferred inertial frames as the rest frame). On this
> picture, there is no relativity of simultaneity and spacetime is
> uniquely decomposable into space and time."
>
> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/35992/title/It%E2%80%99s_Likely_That_Times_Are_Changing
> "A century ago, mathematician Hermann Minkowski famously merged space
> with time, establishing a new foundation for physics; today physicists
> are rethinking how the two should fit together....Einsteins belief
> that time is illusory did not stem from a mere devotion to Newtonian
> determinism. After all, he had disregarded Newton before, rewriting
> the laws of motion that underpinned deterministic philosophy in the
> first place. In so doing, Einstein introduced a new notion of time,
> more radical than even he at first realized. In fact, the view of time
> that Einstein adopted was first articulated by his onetime math
> teacher in a famous lecture delivered one century ago. That lecture,
> by the German mathematician Hermann Minkowski, established a new arena
> for the presentation of physics, a new vision of the nature of reality
> redefining the mathematics of existence. The lecture was titled Space
> and Time, and it introduced to the world the marriage of the two, now
> known as spacetime. It was a good marriage, but lately physicists
> passion for spacetime has begun to diminish. And some are starting to
> whisper about possible grounds for divorce."
>
> Clearly Einsteinians are ready for divorce but salaries should remain
> unchanged. That is the only problem.

The divorce did not take place here:

http://www.philosophie.ch/eidos/events2008/summerschool.shtml
GSSPP08 - Geneva Summer School in the Philosophy of Physics 2008, July 28 - August 2
Topic: What is the Nature of Space and Time?

John Norton, the cleverest Einsteinian, did not know how to get rid of Einstein's space-time concoction without threatening the salaries of Einsteinians. Craig Callender was not invited at all - judging from what he writes above, he does not see the danger and should not be allowed to talk in public.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com

 
 
cincirob

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 7 2009, 11:38 AM 

Pentcho: John Norton, the cleverest Einsteinian, did not know how to get rid of Einstein's space-time concoction without threatening the salaries of Einsteinians. Craig Callender was not invited at all - judging from what he writes above, he does not see the danger and should not be allowed to talk in public.

cinci: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

 
 

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 7 2009, 6:05 PM 





Pentcho: John Norton, the cleverest Einsteinian, did not know how to get rid of Einstein's space-time concoction without threatening the salaries of Einsteinians. Craig Callender was not invited at all - judging from what he writes above, he does not see the danger and should not be allowed to talk in public.



Cincirob: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-... ...



AAF: Oh, poor Cinci! Are you taking the wrong medication again? [linked image]







 
 
cincirob

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 8 2009, 2:38 AM 

Cincirob: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-... ...



AAF: Oh, poor Cinci! Are you taking the wrong medication again?



cinci: Oh no, AAF. Don't you know anything....laughter is the best medicine. And you and Pentcho supply enough to keep me healthy for the next century, Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
*******************************

 
 
bob s

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 8 2009, 8:57 AM 

Re: Cincirob, EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY February 8 2009, 2:38 AM

cinci: "Oh no, AAF. Don't you know anything....laughter is the best medicine. And you and Pentcho supply enough to keep me healthy for the next century,"

You should live so long, Ha...Ha....H.....aaaaaa.......!

 
 
cincirob

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 8 2009, 6:21 PM 

Bob S: You should live so long, Ha...Ha....H.....aaaaaa.......!

cinci: Apparently yo're choking to death. All you anti-relativsts do here any more is SAY relativity is wrong, absurd, etc. It's time you put some meat on the table. I cahllneged AAF on another string her but I'll give you the same chance. Here it is:

You can't talk the theory away. But if you'd like to try, then you describe "Dingle's devastating paradox" here.

No excuses and no cutesy comebacks, just explain it in your own words.

If you can't explain the "devastating paradox" in your own words here then we'll know it's all just hot air.

How about it Bob, afraid to defend the great Dingle?
*****************************

 
 
bob s

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 8 2009, 9:43 PM 

Re: Cincirob, EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY February 8 2009, 6:21 PM

Bob S: "You should live so long, Ha...Ha....H.....aaaaaa......."

cinci: "Apparently yo're choking to death."

Actually, it was a short lived laugh because I really didn't mean it. I didn't think you would understand.

Cinci,
"How about it Bob, afraid to defend the great Dingle?"

Not at all Cinci, but first things first. If you will recall in another string: (Re: Remains of World's Longest Snake February 7 2009, at 10:49 AM,) I was responding to Tedbecile after he said ("Doubtful that you even understand the question" in re Dingle) and I challenged him "And by the way Tedbecile, if you don't think AAF understood the question why not restate it for him, the original question, DumbA$$!" to restate the question and I would like to see his reply.

It is hard for me to recall how many time you have ignored my replies or avoided the issue and I have no reason to believe you will stay on issue this time. So, truth be told, I feel no compulsion to wast my time with you with replies other than I choose to make.

But here is what I will do Cinci; you restate Dingle's original question and make it clear the first time, and I will defend Dingle. Your reputation here, is to come back with "that's not what I meant, or, that's not what I said!". I will do it for either you or Tedbecile but not both. Who ever gives the statement first, you or Tedbecile, is the one I will respond to. Try jerking me around and I will use the "I don't understand" cop-out lalbatros used! If you don't know what "cop-out" means look it up in a slang dictionary.

 
 
cincirob

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 9 2009, 2:27 AM 

Bob S: "You should live so long, Ha...Ha....H.....aaaaaa......."

cinci: "Apparently yo're choking to death."

Bob S: Actually, it was a short lived laugh because I really didn't mean it. I didn't think you would understand.

Cinci: "How about it Bob, afraid to defend the great Dingle?"

Not at all Cinci, but first things first. If you will recall in another string: (Re: Remains of World's Longest Snake February 7 2009, at 10:49 AM,) I was responding to Tedbecile after he said ("Doubtful that you even understand the question" in re Dingle) and I challenged him "And by the way Tedbecile, if you don't think AAF understood the question why not restate it for him, the original question, DumbA$$!" to restate the question and I would like to see his reply.

It is hard for me to recall how many time you have ignored my replies or avoided the issue and I have no reason to believe you will stay on issue this time.

cinci: It's hard to recall becuase it hasn't happened. This is just another antirelativist cop out.
*******************************

Bob : So, truth be told, I feel no compulsion to waste my time with you with replies other than I choose to make.

cinci: More cop out.
**********************

Bob S: But here is what I will do Cinci; you restate Dingle's original question and make it clear the first time, and I will defend Dingle. Your reputation here, is to come back with "that's not what I meant, or, that's not what I said!". I will do it for either you or Tedbecile but not both. Who ever gives the statement first, you or Tedbecile, is the one I will respond to. Try jerking me around and I will use the "I don't understand" cop-out lalbatros used! If you don't know what "cop-out" means look it up in a slang dictionary.

cinci: According to AAF Dingle has supposedly identified the paradox that destroys relativity. If your logic is that it makes sense for me to explain him, no wonder you don't understand relativity.

I already know what cop-out means and if I send your proposal to the dictionary, they'll start using it as an example. This is the biggest cop-out I've ever seen.

Come on Bob, no guts, no glory.
****************************

 
 
bob s

Re: EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY

February 9 2009, 7:27 AM 

Re: Cincirob. EINSTEINIANA: TIME DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH RELATIVITY February 9 2009, 2:27 AM

Cinci,
"Come on Bob, no guts, no glory."

State the original problem/question that Dingle had with Special Relativity Cinci, and I will respond in defense of Dingle. And be sure to state it well the first time!

 
 
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