A site dedicated to understanding the Roman Catholic Church
in light of Scripture, reason, logic and history. Welcome to our Message Board. Visitors are
welcome to post their comments and questions, and to respond to
other visitors as desired. The basic rules are: 1.Do not
"dumptruck" on others: keep your posts brief and to the point,
and try to stay with one topic at a time. 2.No foul language. 3.No insults. 4. Posts should
address issues regarding the Roman Catholic Church, its dogmas, doctrines, practices, etc., vis-a-vis
the Bible. This is not a forum in which to discuss Eastern Mysticism, Jehovah's Wintessess, Mormonism,
or other non-Christian groups or related topics. 5. Do not slam, insult, etc., webmasters of other web sites, be they Protestant, Catholic, or whatever!
Thanks for your visit, and for your consideration. I look
forward to some interesting threads!
God Bless you one and all!
Your webmaster, Bob.
My discovery of this site.
by
(no login)
Dear fellow ex-RCers,
I jumped off the RC boat in '65 after 13 years of brain washing, four of which were courtesy of the Society of Jesus at Loyola Highschool in Los Angeles, CA.
I still get blind sided by my internalized Catholic Borderline Personality Disorder Mother and my internalized RC church.
Keeping both in sight and yet at a safe distance is a continual struggle.
I have been looking for a site like this for some time.
I look forward to learning from the insightfulness of others and posting thoughts and experiences from my own post-RC life.
Sincerely,
Jim Klein
Posted on Aug 14, 2009, 10:20 AM from IP address 67.101.80.44
The Church is the pillar of truth and the foundation
by Anonymous (no login)
When quoting the catechism, why do you omit the scripture references?Which came first? Bible or church? The church has plenty of problems but they are caused by ordinary men like ourselves. Jesus is most present in his sacraments.
Posted on Jul 15, 2009, 4:15 PM from IP address 72.178.96.211
...a fallen away Catholic? or just a Protestant who honestly doesn't understand what Catholics believe? Do you REALLY desire to know the Truth as it has been given to us from Jesus Christ through the Apostles (even as you have received the Bible from the hands of the Catholic Church, like it or not, as history proves), or do you just have this website for sport to bash the one true Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ which HE founded-- which is a sin against charity (i.e. love of God and neighbor)?
Even if you believe you are right (which you are not), you err in virtue, for Christ died to save all mankind. He forgave all, including sinners inside and outside of His Church...but only His Church is joined to Him as Members of His Body. Only those who truly seek Him in spirit and in truth will find Him.
Therefore, to set up a website to bash what you either already know to be true (but seek to destroy in revenge because you have a beef against a certain priest, or against a certain teaching of the Church [like contraception, maybe?]) or because you don't know to be true (try going to an RCIA class and find out what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches [not the lies you choose to read from anti-Catholic literature]- at least at a class you can present your confusion to the source), to set up a website to cause scandal by cutting down your neighbor in anger or in ignorance is a grave sin before God Who calls us FIRST to love. It will not go unpunished before the Almighty One Who is Perfect and knows each of our hearts.
Posted on Jul 10, 2009, 11:32 PM from IP address 97.120.142.221
Reading your site is alot like reading "The DaVinci Code".
There are enough facts to be dangerous, but not enough facts to be right. To begin, be careful using the word dogma. You cite Papal bulls from the 1300s as dogma, when they are not. According to several Canon lawyers that I have studied with, the only things you HAVE to believe as a Catholic are contained in the Nicene Creed
"We believe one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from Heaven: By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen"
Council of Nicea, 325 A.D.
This is what you must believe to be a Roman Catholic. Most main stream Christian religions are Creed based, with the exception of the Baptist Church and possibly the Bible Churches (not actually sure on that one).
As Catholics we do not believe that:
a) only Catholics can go to heaven
b) only Christians can go to heaven
The Catholic Church has chosen to take the position that only God decides who goes to heaven, and that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross assured salvation for all who accept it, and that the empty tomb is proof of our salvation. W I personally hope that God is much more forgiving than human beings are!
You quote documents that are 700 years old and in fact do not fall under the cloak of Papal infallibility which you seem to question. So webmaster, do you know how many times Papal infallibility has been invoked since it's inception? Once! And that decree was? Find out and let me know. Be very careful to distinguish between Dogma and the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. They are not the same.
Every Roman Catholic is taught beginning in the first grade that only God can forgive sin. The priest in the confessional is simply an intermediary so that the penitent actually hears the words "You are absolved from your sins". In the early Christian Church public confession was required for transgressions against the community. Most Catholics will tell you that the act of naming your misdeeds makes them much easier to deal with. Which is worse, the prideful attitude that says "How dare you tell me I have to confess my sins to be forgiven?!" Or the directive that says "Everyone should come to God at least once a year to ask forgiveness for their sins." The Catholic Church also teaches that there is NO unforgiveable sin. You only have to ask. In fact, the Catholic Church also says that a perfect act of contrition is all that is needed to be forgiven for even a mortal sin. No priest required. Most people aren't comfortable with the concept of a perfect act of contrition so private confession is a more comfortable option. Occaisionally, Catholic Churches will have penitential ceremonies where a very large group of people are all granted absolution for their sins without actually talking to a priest. But having a priest talk to you about why this is a problem for you and give guidance for your spiritual life is actually a pretty good deal for the average person, and also may explain why Catholics have a significantly lower suicide rate than the general population.
Remember "Keep holy the Lord's Day" isn't something Rome made up. Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath to honor His Father, we are just emulating Him. If you want to go straight to the beach and play in the sand instead of spending a whole hour or two hearing God's word and worshipping Him amidst a community of believers and then going to the beach or shopping or the movie, go ahead. Is one hour once a week asking so very much? Have dinner with your parents once a week, it keeps the relationship strong.
I could continue on, but I suspect that you don't really care. I would like to say that Yes, the Catholic Church does believe that it holds the full deposit of the Faith. Doesn't every church believe this? If you don't in your church, why in heaven's name are you there? Are you waiting for something better to come along? We, as Catholics, have simply moved away from the big foam finger and the "We're #1!" chant. Yes, we still know that we are right, but are still willing to say that you're probably not all wrong, and that God is gracious enough to allow room for error on humanity's part, after all look how badly we've messed things up over and over and over again!
Posted on May 28, 2009, 4:25 PM from IP address 72.54.163.102
Thanks for this very logical approach to the dilemma of being Catholic. Other sites simply attack Catholics-- I appreciate that you did not. You also did not misrepresent Catholic teaching simply to serve your own cause which would make Catholics stop reading. I teeter between Catholicism and Protestantism-- this is the best site I have seen to sway me toward Protestantism. I'll tell you, though, it's hard to leave the Catholic Church-it's deeply ingrained into people that they're not supposed to leave. Unfortunately, most people I know who grow up and realize these dilemmas of being Catholic simply become agnostic (it's so ingrained in them that they cannot be Protestant that they become NOTHING!).
Posted on May 25, 2009, 5:14 AM from IP address 72.48.41.252
If you think this forum is fair to the Catholic Church, you really need to spend more time learning about the Catholic Church. You should start watching EWTN, especially the show "The Journey Home" about Protestant ministers converting to Catholicism. Don't leave; the Catholic Church is the pearl of great price.
Posted on May 26, 2009, 8:33 PM from IP address 98.17.21.41
With respect, the church when compared to what Jesus & the apostles taught - is opposite to biblical christianity. I could list pages of biblical proof like the fact we CANT merit our salvation through purgatory or pennace or good works :
"All men are now undeservedly justified by the gift of God, through the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus. Through His blood, God made Him the means of expiation for all who believe so that He might be just and might justify those who believe in Jesus For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from observance of the law" (Romans 3:23-28).
Thats right - Christs death was ONE ONLY payment in FULL for our sins - we cannot work to pay off our sins - only Christs death could do that.
And once done, IT IS FINISHED. Rom 19:30
"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
What is finished? Offerings for sin.
What does this mean? The mass is not needed. It never was.
Christs died ONCE to pay for our sins.
Christs death was the perfect sacrifice to allow us to come DIRECTLY into contact to God THROUGH Jesus ( not mary or saints ).
"For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" ( 1 Tim 2:5 )
Can your merit ( and therefore salvation ) be gained through works?
"Never-the-less, knowing that a man is not justified by legal observance but by faith in Jesus Christ, we too have believed in Him in order to be justified by faith in Christ, not by observance of the law; for by works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16).
So its clear - no works can justify you ( save you ).
Salvation cant be by works.
But the catholic church teaches salvation by merit ( meriting graces ).
Consequently, you can see the catholic church is anti-biblical in what it teaches. I'm just being factual. In fact, if you look in the catechism #2000 to #2027 you will see this meriting salvation clearly laid out - This is not biblical.
I also find that the church omits Commandment #2 in catehcism treachings - see this Vatican web page for proof.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
Do you bow before an altar with christ in the cross?
Do you bow before saints statues?
This is idolatry. God hates idolatry.
Dont get me wrong , I love the catholc people, but I have no time for the church which after 2000 years and some of the best brains around, still teach un-biblical doctrine.
Ask yourself - why?
Please pray to God and ask His guidance and strength to do what is right reagrds this , in their own words, unbiblical organisation.
I hope this helps.
All glory be to God ( Yahweh ) alone. Amen.
Posted on Nov 17, 2009, 7:43 PM from IP address 114.73.145.113
Hi, I too have come against a brick wall with the catholic church, their double talk is like hitting a brick wall at great speed. It seems like you can go on for ever because of their word play...
very frustrating loudmouth
Posted on Apr 23, 2009, 12:47 AM from IP address 124.177.192.2
I am a very strong and dedicated Catholic. I love Christ's Church with all my soul. I have never in my life heard or seen any anti-protestant web sites, heard any Catholic priest or nun talk about protestant beliefs or teachings-I have however, sat in a pentacostal church numerous times while hearing a sermon about how Catholics are wrong! With all the hate in the world, can't you find something better to talk about, other than the "so called untruths" about Catholism? Wouldn't it benefit this troubled world much better for you and anyone else, for that matter, to talk of Christ's love, rather than focusing on the differences in religions?
Posted on Feb 9, 2009, 9:37 AM from IP address 67.142.130.21
I have heard priests preach that the Roman church is the only true church, and that all other churches are wrong, i.e,untrue, especially our new priest. I have seen the inside workings of religious life since I was there. I abhor any church who proclaims the be the only true church. Our priest sounds just like a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon, both groups who are adamant about theirs being the only true church. As a student in anthropology, I attended lots of churches, and the only churches that ever stateed they are the only true ones, that they have the fullness of the gospel are the Witnesses, the Mormons and the Roman church. However, I am quite close to some priest who used to teach me in college, and they would be the last ones to state this. So to say that certain people and priests in the Roman church do not say these things is contrary to my experience. That is why I am so grateful for priest and sisters who realize that churches, protestant and catholic, are all part of the mystical body of Christ. Adopt a truth and follow it blindly, it will become a falsehood and you a fanatic...
Posted on Mar 23, 2009, 6:34 AM from IP address 173.87.138.16
I do not know of any Catholic priest who has complained about protestant churches being the whore of babylon or that all protestants are going to hell because they are not saved. The Catholic Church does profess to be the one true Church because it is, but it also believes other Christian churches have elements of truth in them, they just do not have the fullness. Catholics are not brought up believing protestants are going to hell as most protestants I know are. There is the difference!
Posted on Apr 9, 2009, 3:35 PM from IP address 24.247.191.48
I think Jesus establishes a Church and not a collection of books. Let us study the life of early Christians until the Pope ordered the excavation and translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls to be the Latin Vulgate then todays Bible.
Regarding Confession Mt 9:5-8.Mk 2:8-11, Jn 20:22,James 5:14-16,2 Cor 5:18,20
Devotion to saints Jn 17:20-23,Rom 2:4-11, Rom 13:1-7
Devotion to Mary Jn 19:27,Jn 2:5,
Posted on Jan 21, 2009, 1:38 AM from IP address 119.94.201.29
The only way you even know the name of Jesus is the Bible. What an awful pronouncement that has come out of your heart thoroughly Romanized. The Roman Catholic religion denigrates the Bible because it shows its heresies. Rome calls itself the church while denying the scriptures and replacing them with her own traditions.
Your knowledge of Bible history is flawed. The King James Bible is not based on the Latin Vulgate and the pope did not give us the Bible. The Bible was on Rome's list of PROHIBITED BOOKS. Rome BURNED the Bible. And she has put it in your head that the Bible is just a collection of books. It may be that to you, but it is life to me and my child. The Psalms teach that God hath magnified his word above ALL his name (Psalm 138:2). That is how high the scriptures are--above God's very name.
When you put scripture references with heresy, you are wresting the scriptures. The Bible condemns all the things you say that it teaches.
Posted on Dec 9, 2009, 8:46 PM from IP address 173.66.165.48
Popes and An Unflattering History
A Commentary by Warren J. Blumenfeld
During his end-of-the-year Vatican address, Pope Benedict XVI implied that homosexuality is as great a threat to humankind as climate change. He argued that saving humanity from homosexual behavior is as important as saving the rainforest from destruction. Humanity, he asserted, needs to listen to the language of creation to realize the intended roles of man and woman. He warned of the blurring of the natural distinctions between males and females, and called for humanity to protect itself from self-destruction. The Pope compared behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations as a destruction of Gods work.
The Popes warning comes only two years after another of his controversial Christmastime addresses in which he quoted a 14th century Christian emperor who asserted that the Islamic Prophet Muhammad imposed on the world only evil and inhuman conditions.
Pope Benedict XVI, by invoking his interpretation of Christian scripture, follows a long history of Popes who, throughout the ages, have employed these texts to justify and rationalize the marginalization, harassment, denial of rights, persecution, and oppression of entire groups of people based on their social identities. At various historical moments, Popes have applied these texts, sometimes taken in tandem, and at other times used selectively, to establish and maintain hierarchical positions of power, domination, and privilege over individuals and groups targeted by these texts.
On Slavery: Quoting a number of Biblical passages, Pope Nicholas V, in 1452, composed his Dum Diversas, which granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers to perpetual slavery. Then in 1548, Pope Paul III, reasserted that any free person may buy, sell, and own slaves, and that runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment. Pope Gregory I in 595 sent a priest to Britain to purchase Pagan boys to work as slaves on church estates. Around the year 600, Pope Gregory I wrote, in Pastoral Rule: Slaves should be told...not [to] despise their masters and recognize that they are only slaves. And between 1629-1661, Popes Urban VII, Innocent X, and Alexander VII, purchased Muslim slaves.
On the Jews: In 1239, using Biblical passages as his rationale, Pope Gregory IX ordered all copies of the Jewish holy book, the Talmud, confiscated, and in 1322, Pope John XXII ordered all copies of the Talmud burned on the eve of the Jewish Passover. Pope Paul IV, in his Papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, segregated Jews within a walled ghetto with locked gates at night to keep them separated from the Christian majority, and to emphasize their inferior legal and social status. Pope Pius IX, in 1858, kidnapped a young boy, Edgardo Mortara, from his Jewish parents in Bologna, Italy, and raised him in Rome as a Catholic against his parents wishes on the justification that a Catholic maidservant had secretly baptized the boy earlier when he was gravely ill. Pope Pius IX also referred to the Jews of Rome as dogs.
The Church has since admitted regret for many of the actions and words of former Popes. The Rev. Angelo Roncalli, who later became Pope John XXIII, was honored by Jewish leaders around the world for his work in saving large numbers of Jews during the German Holocaust. As Pope, he convened the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), which authorized the declaration Nostra Aetate and approved in 1965 under Pope Paul VI. An article in the document, while certainly not going far enough, stated: True, authorities of the Jews and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be blamed upon all the Jews then living, without distinction, nor upon the Jews of today. Moreover, the Church deplores the hatred, persecutions and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews at any time and from any source.
Coming back to the Churchs positions on same-sex identities and lives, I wonder how long it will take the Church to apologize for its long-standing marginalization and persecution of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Time will only tell.
Warren J. Blumenfeld is co-editor of Investigating Christian Privilege and Religious Oppression in the United States, Sense Publishers, 2009.
Posted on Dec 29, 2008, 11:55 AM from IP address 12.216.2.144
Yes indeed... very nice overview of papal and/or RCC history. But your argument seems mis-directed; you need to direct it to the Lord God Jehovah, who made it pretty clear that homosexuality is one of those sins that, if not repented of and changed, guarantees one a place in Hell. Not my decision; not the Pope's decision.
regards,
The Messenger
Posted on Jan 16, 2009, 4:05 PM from IP address 96.252.68.114
I don't mean to slam anyone personally, just a couple of the usual hackneyed arguments expressed in this dissertation that Catholics get tired of hearing.
So we're supposed to believe, according to Mr. Blumenfeld, that the Papacy has an "unflattering history." He really should put his anti-Catholic bigotry aside for a moment and do his homework. His banality and unfortunate refusal to see the big picture is all too familiar and easily dismissed by any educated Catholic.
Regarding the burning of the Talmud, for example, does he realize that the book is replete with the most disgusting vulgarities about Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, and Christians ever written? Anyone who possesses a copy understands that it attempts to justify the persecution of Christians by the leaders of the synagogue. Why has the book been hidden all these centuries from the general public and not readily translated into English? The injustice is not that such a "monument to human folly" could be burned, but that its vulgar teachings could be written and passed on in the first place.
Mr. Blumenfeld does not shy away from playing the much overused and often ridiculed "antisemitism" card as if persecution between Catholics and Jews went in only one direction. As a convert to Catholicism quite familiar with Judaism, I can assure him that the synagogue's persecution of Christ's Church which began in Jesus' time, has been far more ruthless and of much longer duration than the worst periods of so called "persecution" exhibited by the Church. Read the New Testament and the Talmud (if you can read Hebrew or have a rare translation) side by side. Then tell me who is persecuting who.
One should also be more aware than to identify Jews in general as Semites since the fact is the overwhelming majority of Jews today would be considered Gentiles by the Hebrews of Christ's time. The true Semites in the world today are Arabs yet we don't hear in the media of any "antisemitism" perpetrated against them. Fortunately today, people are becoming more educated in the field of ethnicity.
There is much more I could write, but for the sake of brevity, I will leave it at that. I will conclude by stating that the first 31 popes of the Roman Catholic Church were martyred. Yet the Papacy incredibly not only survived but exists today as a beacon of light to the nations as well as to loyal Catholics everywhere and who number today well over 1 billion strong! I wonder how many belong to Mr. Blumenfeld's clan.
Posted on Apr 9, 2009, 7:51 PM from IP address 72.153.226.31
I don't mean to slam anyone personally, just a couple of the usual hackneyed arguments expressed in this dissertation that Catholics get tired of hearing.
So we're supposed to believe, according to Mr. Blumenfeld, that the Papacy has an "unflattering history." He really should put his anti-Catholic bigotry aside for a moment and do his homework. His banality and unfortunate refusal to see the big picture is all too familiar and easily dismissed by any educated Catholic.
Regarding the burning of the Talmud, for example, does he realize that the book is replete with the most disgusting vulgarities about Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, and Christians ever written? Anyone who possesses a copy understands that it attempts to justify the persecution of Christians by the leaders of the synagogue. Why has the book been hidden all these centuries from the general public and not readily translated into English? The injustice is not that such a "monument to human folly" could be burned, but that its vulgar teachings could be written and passed on in the first place.
Mr. Blumenfeld does not shy away from playing the much overused and often ridiculed "antisemitism" card as if persecution between Catholics and Jews went in only one direction. As a convert to Catholicism quite familiar with Judaism, I can assure him that the synagogue's persecution of Christ's Church which began in Jesus' time, has been far more ruthless and of much longer duration than the worst periods of so called "persecution" exhibited by the Church. Read the New Testament and the Talmud (if you can read Hebrew or have a rare translation) side by side. Then tell me who is persecuting who.
One should also be more aware than to identify Jews in general as Semites since the fact is the overwhelming majority of Jews today would be considered Gentiles by the Hebrews of Christ's time. The true Semites in the world today are Arabs yet we don't hear in the media of any "antisemitism" perpetrated against them. Fortunately today, people are becoming more educated in the field of ethnicity.
There is much more I could write, but for the sake of brevity, I will leave it at that. I will conclude by stating that the first 31 popes of the Roman Catholic Church were martyred. Yet the Papacy incredibly not only survived but exists today as a beacon of light to the nations as well as to loyal Catholics everywhere and who number today well over 1 billion strong! I wonder how many belong to Mr. Blumenfeld's clan.
Posted on Apr 9, 2009, 7:54 PM from IP address 72.153.226.31
Paul is right about the Talmud, it has many blasphemies--but it does not mean that we persecute Jewish people.
The issue for Catholics to consider is, "What does the Bible say?"
Catholics are taught many extra-biblical traditions and rituals. They are told that they must not go to the word of God alone. They are told that they need tradition and the magisterium and the "fathers". That means that they have to listen to everybody the pope says to listen to no matter how long ago they lived and no matter how obscure their writings. All of these things get the same footing as the holy scriptures.
Catholics that want to know the truth need to put all these traditions to the side and sort out exclusively what the Bible has to say. Then they can see what thus saith the Lord.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (not the eucharist, the real Lord) and thou shalt be saved. (Acts 16:31)
After you repent of your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, continue in his word. Read the gospels and learn about your Lord. Read your Authorized King James Bible. Read whole books, not just flipping to a chapter here and there. The visible church today is largely false. I do not know one good one. The following website may be of assistance to you if you decide to become a Christian
www.Jesus-is-Lord.com
Posted on Dec 9, 2009, 8:39 PM from IP address 173.66.165.48