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AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012 at 11:15 AM
keystone-king  (Login keystone-king)
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Its that time of the year. we are 4 months out from the breeders cup and turf racing is starting to pick up once again here in the US. But once again the state of American turf racing is so deplorable. one can go division by division and draw an absolute blank when it comes to potential leaders and stand outs in American turf racing. just imagine how good Dullahan,Creative Cause and a few others would have been by this point if they were not burnt out on the triple crown path.
horses like St .Nicholas Abby, Treasure Beach,City Scape,Cirrus Des Aigles, and Excelebration are all set up to take runs at the Arlington million, Man O war,
Secretariat, Joe Hirsch, Clement Hirsch, and Breeders Cup. who do the Americans have ?

 
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Jason Baker
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 1:58 PM 

You could expand this topic to almost every division except the older female dirt division.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 2:37 PM 

But the turf racing is like this year after year. the turf racing is so bad here in the states that all you need is a B level turf horse and you will make a lot of money, just look at what Cape Blanco did last year. He won 3 of the biggest turf races in the country and went back to Ireland after every one of them. Coolmore knew they didn't even have to keep him here to train.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 4:29 PM 

Not much of an argument here. I will stick up for Silver Max as he has developed a great win streak and is mowing down all comers, of course limited to three year olds.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 4:45 PM 

The Europeans dominate the route turf races every year. With the exception of a few winners here and there, they have won the bulk of the Breeders Cup turf/mile races. They've even begun extending that out to the Juvi turf races since their inception. But much like they've dominated the turf, the Americans have dominated the dirt races. Second stringers even win the BC. Dangerous Midge anyone? Loved him in the BC, but he really is a second tier type.

This year the division appears to be exceptionally soft. If Acclimation remains healthy and carries his form from last year through this year he might be able to make a dent on the division. The Breeders Cup is also on his home track, the same course that Pressious Passion nearly wired the field over a few years back (running one of the gamest races I've ever seen a horse run).

I'm with you on Silver Max JB. I love that "take the race to them" from gate to wire style. I think he's more suited for a mile than 1 1/2, then again Turbo Compressor has stretched out nicely.

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 5:03 PM 

Dirt racing is and always will be what the U.S. is all about. It's just how it is. Turf racing, while providing excellent wagering opportunities on a day to day basis, is an afterthought in this country at the highest level for the most part. I don't see this changing any time soon. With that said, we've held our own on Cup day over the years.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 5:32 PM 

Seems like we've done better in the Mile. Been awhile since Better Talk Now, and not a ton of winners before him. Euros breed for it, train for it, and run more races on it, so it seems natural that they should excel on Turf.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 10:54 PM 

Yeah Frank, of the 28 runnings of the BC Mile, a surprising 15 of them were won by horses who weren't just off the plane! What I mean by that is some of them may have originally been based overseas, but were sent here well in advance of their Breeders Cup Mile triumph. That was really quite shocking when I laid it out in front of me. My memory of some of the winners of that race isn't crystal clear, so I might be off by 1 or two, but it's still really not that bad of a record for us.

I counted 10 BC Turf winners (11 if we get to count Canadian invader Chief Bearheart) that were American based, but a particularly telling thing about that is that SIX of those came in the first 10 runnings of the race, with only 4 (Buck's Boy, Johar, Better Talk Now, and English Channel, + the aforementioned Chief Bearheart if he counts) coming since 1993.....that's like the last 18 runnings of the race! Our record in this 12f race has been pretty dismal, especially over the last nearly 2 decades. I guess that really surprises no one.

The BC turf race where we've done the most damage though is the F&M Turf. 13 runnings and we've won 7 of them, which is solid. The Euros in that one only number 5, due to the double from Ouija Board, with the others being Bank's Hill, Islington, Lahudood, and Midday. Lahudood did run in the Flower Bowl before her Breeders Cup win, but that's certainly not enough to magically make her American-based. The caveat in this is that the last two winners, American-based Shared Account and Perfect Shirl were both likely more lucky than good, as the saying goes.

I didn't bother with the new Juvie turf races. The sample size just isn't enough to draw any significant conclusions from.

It was an interesting exercise, and actually, we haven't performed as horribly as we seem to like to think we have. happy.gif

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 11:52 PM 

Dirt racing is the only thing keeping us relevant. if we raced on turf like the rest on the world we would get blown off the map.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 12:10 AM 

I don't really get the relevance of that statement. If the Euros raced on dirt they would get blown out of the water.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:01 AM 

American horses dont win outside of the US, Dubai was once the place where american horses found riches but that was long ago. america is the only country in the world that races on dirt. everybody else uses poly or turf. two surfaces american horse dont excel on. when was the last time an americn horse won a G1 on poly or turf outside of the US ? I know there are many who think that our horses are the best but the reality is they are not.

 
 

Ziggy
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 6:30 AM 

Plain and simple, Poly sucks!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_racetrack_surfaces_for_horse_racing

We have no proof the Poly version is better on the horse, Cushion track bombed once and not many are using the safest of all the 'polys', Tapeta.

So US horses fair worse than the rest of the WORLD in head to head competition. You know it's not the United Countries of the World. Stack US horses up against any one of those other SINGLE countries and this argument starts falling apart.

Hell lets hold ALL BC's at GP and lets watch the foreign turf competition fold up like a cheap tent because they can't handle the heat wink.gif

And if you don't like dirt racing, then go ahead and bet England, Australia, US Poly ..... pretty sure you can if you try ..... but leave my dirt alone!!!!!

Z~i~g~g~y~

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 11:53 AM 

Totally agree Ziggy, get rid of the Poly and bring the ol' dirt back. I'd be ecstatic if they did that at Del Mar. Then there might be a chance of a Breeders Cup going there


The US is not the only place in the world where there is dirt racing. Japan has a ton of major dirt stakes races.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 1:04 PM 

It's not about Dirt vs Turf. its about making the US a better racing nation. what's the purpose of having a turf course if we cant breed breed G1 winners on the world stage. its not the stone age anymore where horses don't travel. the world is becoming a smaller place and its time we catch up because we have been behind far to long.the Frankels and Black Caviars of the world don't need to come here because they will be facing c string turf horses but yet for some reason they have their detractors because they are not coming to the breeders cup. that's crazy. and yes japan does have dirt racing but for some reason American connections don't make their way over their, they use to travel to japan back in the day for the japan cup though but they don't go for the dirt races ?

 
 

Jason
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 1:24 PM 

I see your point, and don't totally disagree. However, the Breeders Cup has been established as the year end championship races for this country and those are the races everyone points towards. They have lucrative purses and lure in horses from all over the world. There are 2 seasons in American horse racing and they revolve around the Kentucky Derby and the Breeders Cup. Everything in between is generally a prep for those two events.

American connections don't really need to go anywhere. For the most part we breed for speed on the dirt. The Sadlers Wells types don't have much opportunity in this country outside the Arlington Million and Breeders Cup Turf, so why travel abroad? Dubai's purses are so high, and early enough in the season that horses can recover from that trip, so their an exception. Why travel to Europe in June when the BC is 3 or so months away? Del Mar/Saratoga is in Jul/Aug/Sep and feature the best horses domestically while running for the highest purses in the country on a daily basis. It doesn't make sense.

In regards to your comment about "making the US a better racing nation" that's a subject that could go a million different directions. However, being a SoCal horse player I would suggest we take a lesson from some of our international counterparts and scale down the race days so a better product can be put out there. Only race Fri-Sun if that's all the horse population can sustain, but put out a product over those 3 days that are going to ensure the masses come back.


They have Black Caviar...we had Zenyatta.

They have Frankel...we had Ghostzapper.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:10 PM 

This has little to do with the topic at hand, but I have to say that as a fan and recreational bettor, day to day I enjoy watching and betting on turf races a lot more, excepting the Triple Crown races. I'm not sure I can put my finger on why. It's more pleasing to the eye, for one thing. The races are more exciting--there seem to be fewer runaway romps and fewer pluggers particpating. Pedigree seems more reliable when sizing up a horse (although I have zero data on this). I'd like to see more of it, and fewer low level claimers on dirt. I think Jason's onto something with the 3 day race week. I'd contract the sport all over the place, but that was a different argument;-) JMO.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:16 PM 

Keystone- there is a larger point to be made that is a subtext to this conversation. American breeders control the quality of racing in this country and the biggest breeding money is spent on horses that can run long on dirt. If it paid more to breed world class turf horses, the boys and girls in Kentucky would do it.

As for traveling, there are really only two world wide events that can lure Americans- the Japan Cup and Dubai.

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:25 PM 

JPR just sent ill have another to japn for 10 mill so your view of american breeders spending money on horses that run long on the dirt is suspect. John Magnier and Mike Tabor have built coolmore on turf racing because its the surface of the world. and thus more breeding money comes in.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:33 PM 

Totally wrong. It is well known that I'll Have Another is not as valuable because Flower Alley is in his breeding prime, is not yet a highly respected sire and there is not enough perceived added value in IHA's breeding to fetch the type of numbers that Uncle Mo, Looking at Lucky or others have in recent time.


    
This message has been edited by JBaker826 on Jul 10, 2012 2:34 PM


 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:45 PM 

FA maybe in his breeding prime but seriously what are the odds that he can reproduce anything close to IHA ? lets get real. and IHA is not the first or the last American classic winners to be shunned or sent off to japan. remember Sunday silence ? charismatic ? empire maker ? silver charm ?

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:46 PM 

Flower Alley merits a $7,500 stud fee. Paultry in comparison to Bernardini @ $150,000

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:47 PM 

both looking at lucky and uncle mo are owned by Coolmore so the american breeders let them get away to.

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:49 PM 

Bernardini was frail and raced only 8 times. and his stud record is lacking.


    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 10, 2012 2:50 PM


 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 3:02 PM 

Top stud horses in the US:

Bernardini- $150,000 (Dirt router)
Street Cry- $150,000 (Dirt router)
Tapit- $125,000 (Dirt router)
Distorted Humor- $100,000 (Dirt middle distances)
Medaglia d'Oro- $100,000 (Dirt router)
Giant's Causeway- $85,000 (Turf router)
Unbridled's Song- $85,000 (Dirt router)
Smart Strike- $85,000 (Dirt Mile/router)
Tiznow- $75,000 (Dirt router)
Malibu Moon- $70,000 (Dirt router)

Seems pretty clear to me what type of horse draws the biggest stud fee.

Edit: to credit stud fee source.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/search-stallion.aspx?sf4=USA


    
This message has been edited by JBaker826 on Jul 10, 2012 3:04 PM


 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 3:05 PM 

The Maktoums own most of those horses and jacked up the price under threat that they may take them to dubai. and for the record GC the turf horse has more G1 winning offspring than any of them


    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 10, 2012 3:06 PM


 
 
Small Mac
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 10:31 PM 

If people are willing to pay the 150,000 why wouldn't you charge it, that's simply good business.
I would much rather breed to Bernardini than Flower Alley. Flower Alley does not jump off the page with his breeding, he has thrown basically once nice horse. Look at the Storm Cat and A.P. Indy lines, they are going to be the foundation lines for the future. Not Forty Niner or Distorted Humor, this instantly makes I'll Have Another a great sell for ten million since the Japanese want him to cross to their mares since they have way less options, but why would the Kentucky breeders cross with him when they can send their mares to stallions who are just as talented on the track but more regally bred which will make them much more valuable as sales horses where most of the commercial breeding operations make their money.
American breeding may not be the soundest but it is just as good as any other breeding in the world. Look at Americaian who won the Melbourne Cup as an American bred.
You could make the same counter argument, I want to see Frankel run a mile and a quarter on the dirt in a full field vs Ron the Greek, Royal Delta, To Honor and Serve, Mucho Macho Man, Game on Dude, I know it would never happen but that's what it seems what you are asking for, just the other way around.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 11:50 PM 

You have me mistaken. Im not asking for any american dirt horse to run on turf. im simply asking for american turf horses to run in europe. if acclamation is th best turf horse in america then why not show it outside of the USA ? his connections wont even leave California and they stayed well away from Cape Blanco last year.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:12 AM 

Makes no sense when the Breeders Cup is in California and that's the year end goal. If the Breeders Cup was at Belmont, it would make sense to get him a prep over that course. Moot point this year and the connections should run at Del Mar & Santa Anita prior to the Breeders Cup. Why ship a horse when it's unnecessary? That would be poor management on every level.

 
 


(Login Paseana)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:53 AM 

This has been a very interesting conversation.

There's one thing that you said, keystone-king, that with all due respect, is a little disingenuous.

"both looking at lucky and uncle mo are owned by Coolmore so the american breeders let them get away to."

The statement is very misleading. Coolmore is absolutely an Irish-based operation....no argument there. But both Looking At Lucky and Uncle Mo were purchased by them, as dirt stallion prospects, expressly to stand at stud at Ashford, right here in the land of the Red, White, & Blue. American breeders didn't "let them get away" just because they were purchased by an Irish-based outfit.

The other question I have is about the idea that Sheikh Mohammed "jacked up" the fees for his stallions on the threat of sending them to Dubai. I don't think he has a major breeding operation in Dubai, as strange as that may seem. Maybe somebody can name one accomplished colt owned by Godolphin or Darley that stands at stud in Dubai, but I sure can't think of any. Their biggest stud farms are in Australia, the US, and England, with a presence in Japan and maybe even in South Africa (not sure about that one).

The point is that Sheikh Mo bought Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Any Given Saturday, again as dirt sire prospects, out of their 3yo seasons in 2007 to stand at Darley/Jonabell.....here in America, and he already had Discreet Cat to throw into the mix. Then the bottom dropped out of the market in 2008. How anyone can think that he would have jacked up stud fees, in that economic environment, on the threat of sending them all out of town is beyond me.

As far as American turf horses go, the last really, really good one was Gio Ponti. He was probably challenged at 12f, but he was a fine racehorse. In a strange way, the worst thing that could have happened to him was finishing 2nd to Zenyatta in the BC Classic on synthetic. He spent the last two years of his career prepping for the Dubai World Cup and running admirable races at Meydan two years in a row. He won a lot of money, but his legacy was damaged by the course his later career took.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 2:17 AM 

uncle mo will stand at coolmore's hunter valley. not at ashford. then it will be onto china for their new chiness stud farm.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 2:22 AM 

As far as Maktoum jacking up the price well that speaks for its self. Bernardini has done very little to justify a 150k per cover fee. his best runner is stay thirsty a horse who fails repetidly outside of saratoga. as I said before Giants Causeway is the more accomplisehed of any stallion in america. 27 G1 victories is rock solid.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 3:16 AM 

"As far as Maktoum jacking up the price well that speaks for its self."

And how does it speak for itself? Just asking a question.

 
 
Small Mac
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 3:19 AM 

Maybe this is why Bernardini is worth the 150K
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=6801271

When the people in the know are calling him a Phenom, and the best stallion prospect in years that's a positive sign. He's a young stallion who's progeny tower over Flower Alley, as well as anyone else in his crop.

That's why people are willing to pay for him.
Avg. yearling sale price 210K
Avg. two year old in training sale price 251 K

Those are impressive numbers

And agreed why would Acclamation leave, the Breeders Cup is their, if you were an owner could you in your right mind go galavanting all over the world while keeping in mind the stress on the horse as well as the stress on one's wallet. Why ship halfway round the world to be in with a shot instead of being the hammer in a race at home for the same purse.

A leading trainer at Turf Paradise taught a local trainer a theory and he repeated it to me as if your horse is entered and you are not the morning line favorite you entered the horse in the wrong spot. - Mike Chambers

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 3:24 AM 

Anybody who knows anything about the breeding industry knows that the Maktoums havent forgotten about the years they spent flushing money down he drain here in the US. now they hold the stallions and thus they control the ameican breeding industry. its ecconics 101 corner the market. as I said before Bernardini has done nothing at stud but still american breeders flock to him. he won the shorter of the american classics against a weak 3yo crop. and was outclassed versus invasor in the BC classic.

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 3:26 AM 

@small mack, Giants Causeway has 21 american G1 winners. how many does bernardini have ? last I checked GC was the leading sire two years in a row.
THE NUMBERS DONT LIE

-------------------------------- Lifetime ----------------------------------
Sire Strs Wnrs Wns SWs GSWs Leading earner(earnings) Earnings C Foals Strs Wnrs SWs GSWs G1SWs Earnings
1 Tapit 191 87 113 7 4 Testa Matta ($1,641,755) $6,407,202 5 486 331 238 34 17 8 $33,595,926
2001, by Pulpit - Tap Your Heels, by Unbridled; Standing at Gainesway (Ky.); stud fee, $125,000
2 Giant's Causeway 224 78 106 13 7 A Shin G Line ($689,497) $6,379,755 9 1708 1123 700 119 63 21 $89,721,677
1997, by Storm Cat - Mariah's Storm, by Rahy; Standing at Ashford Stud (Ky.); stud fee, $85,000
3 Speightstown 191 86 129 11 2 Sum of the Parts ($327,600) $4,732,306 5 462 337 255 35 11 4 $27,690,450
1998, by Gone West - Silken Cat, by Storm Cat; Standing at WinStar Farm (Ky.); stud fee, $50,000
4 City Zip 167 87 123 8 5 City Style ($736,614) $4,617,565 8 579 413 323 37 13 1 $32,384,381
1998, by Carson City - Baby Zip, by Relaunch; Standing at Lane's End (Ky.); stud fee, $20,000
5 Distorted Humor 175 75 104 7 5 Alternation ($567,723) $4,472,948 11 1053 837 647 111 41 12 $86,802,242
1993, by Forty Niner - Danzig's Beauty, by Danzig; Standing at WinStar Farm (Ky.); stud fee, $100,000
6 Street Cry (Ire) 192 69 95 5 3 Zaidan ($1,102,084) $4,335,152 7 1005 673 434 59 36 12 $58,157,486
1998, by Machiavellian - Helen Street (GB), by Troy (GB); Standing at Darley (Ky.); stud fee, $150,000
7 Flower Alley 88 39 62 4 2 I'll Have Another ($2,629,600) $4,097,471 3 187 120 73 7 4 2 $7,051,933
2002, by Distorted Humor - Princess Olivia, by Lycius; Standing at Three Chimneys Farm (Ky.); stud fee, $7,500
8 Tiznow 177 79 107 6 5 Gemologist ($639,000) $3,982,061 8 777 520 325 41 24 9 $42,458,036
1997, by Cee's Tizzy - Cee's Song, by Seattle Song; Standing at WinStar Farm (Ky.); stud fee, $75,000
9 Awesome Again 159 65 94 4 3 Game On Dude ($510,000) $3,962,093 11 810 552 380 48 26 11 $58,040,411
1994, by Deputy Minister - Primal Force, by Blushing Groom (Fr); Standing at Adena Springs Kentucky (Ky.); stud fee, $50,000
10 Proud Citizen 159 75 101 9 5 Believe You Can ($977,200) $3,913,019 6 536 425 321 25 12 3 $21,969,392
1999, by Gone West - Drums Of Freedom, by Green Forest; Standing at Airdrie Stud (Ky.); stud fee, $10,000
11 Bernardini 118 48 64 9 5 Alpha ($410,000) $3,863,821 3 393 200 89 15 11 4 $11,544,392
2003, by A.P. Indy - Cara Rafaela, by Quiet American; Standing at Darley (Ky.); stud fee, $150,000



    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 11, 2012 3:32 AM


 
 
spiderjohn
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 6:56 AM 

If given the option, and at equal cost, I would breed to GC over B
Turf or dirt then becomes a possibility
Of course the mare pedigree is a factor

Money is never a factor with the Maktoums

Hope that the sale goes well for KEE and the Ky horsemen

Maybe the west coast heat, dryness and bad air will impact the Euro turfers
Along with shipping

Just look at the fields assembled in US Graded races any more--sad
Had this discussion with UICers on Belmont day

jmo
stay cool-hydrate

 
 

(Login sammythesage)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 8:33 AM 

Somebody said #'s don't lie....roflmao...

ok...how about this stat...

Stud fee's..straight up...

GC..$85K

Bern..$150k

One can twist #'s ALL day...it's a matter of perspective...


 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:08 AM 

@sts NUMBERS DONT LIE. HERE ARE THE TOP EARNING STALLIONS OF THE WORLD. NO BERNARDINI HERE
Top Sires by Earnings - July 10, 2012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sire Starters Winners Earnings
Dubawi (IRE) 161 62 $9,543,387
Montjeu (IRE) 191 58 $5,687,523
Galileo (IRE) 259 85 $5,280,865
Giant's Causeway 242 85 $4,948,227
Empire Maker 153 58 $4,848,812
City Zip 169 87 $4,617,565
Speightstown 193 88 $4,424,884
Tapit 191 87 $4,295,059
Distorted Humor 180 76 $4,123,638
Flower Alley 90 40 $4,104,457
Selkirk 109 33 $4,002,347
Tiznow 182 80 $3,897,900
Proud Citizen 164 77 $3,825,971
Malibu Moon 215 84 $3,768,338
Medicean (GB) 188 58 $3,746,458


 
 


(Login JBaker826)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:23 AM 

Keystone- what is your source for this list? Also, why compare GC to Bernardini? Bernardini is on only his third crop.

You also seem to ignore that the market dictates the stud fee. Bernardini draws his price because people flock to him with top mares (don't believe me? see Zenyatta and Rachel). Also, Giant's Causeway was a very accomplished dirt runner as seen by his 2nd in the Breeder's Cup.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:36 AM 

@ its not a Gc vs B debate. I just used the two to say that turf sires make better overall sires. and the list comes from www.equineline.com the top 4 stallions in the world are all turf horses.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:45 AM 

Thanks for providing the source. Interesting information.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:48 AM 

its hard to argue breeding dirt horses in a world that runs on turf.

 
 


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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:49 AM 

Horse racing, like politics, is all local not global.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 11:52 AM 

BUT GLOBAL POLITICS HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WORLD.

 
 

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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 12:02 PM 

I do not understand the argument that because the rest of the World does things one way, we as the U.S. should as well. We're all about dirt racing here. Putting an emphasis on turf stallions makes little sense.

 
 
keystone-king
(Login keystone-king)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 12:45 PM 

I think your missing the point. individualism is fine and well but what the whole bases of my argument is how far the turf racing has fallen off in the us. you cant tell me it wouldn't be good for us racing if there was an American trained Derby winner or an American trained arc winner.I hate to keep making this point but Cape blanco went back to Ireland after the man o war and the Arlington million and made another Trans Atlantic flight back to the US for the Herish. that's 5 Trans Atlantic flights. and America had nothing to combat him. if thats not exposing american turf racing than I dont know what is.

 
 
Hooper
(Login 1hooper)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:04 PM 

Got a Bernardini 2yo filly that is gliding over the dirt at Fair Hill. Would not sell her for twice the stud fee. Been waiting a few years to get the right Malibu Moon filly. Not interested in Giants Causeway.
Seems the Europeans are pretty sporting by coming over every year to engage us in the fall. Wish we would send some their way more often.
Hooper

 
 

(Login keystone-king)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:21 PM 

Hooper. you summed it up perfectly. I wish American horsemen had the same competitive spirit the Euros have.Ken Ramsey had two horses run at the recent Royal Ascot meet. Big blue kitten and another horse. both ran last but at lest he made the trip. and by looking at the interview he had with tvg he was happy non the less he was there in his top hat and said he will be back next year. I admire that about him.


    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 11, 2012 1:25 PM
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 11, 2012 1:25 PM


 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:28 PM 

Good for U.S. racing if there was an American trained Arc winner? It'd be cool and all, but that's about it.

You want to talk about good for U.S racing? Fair taxation on the horseplayer along with a business model that gives owners a shot at making a few bucks. Growing the game on both ends is what would be good for U.S. racing.

 
 
keystone-king
(Login keystone-king)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:34 PM 

Nobody forces's people to bet exotics.

 
 


(Login CherokeeScot)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:48 PM 

"Nobody forces's people to bet exotics." Not sure what that means - perhaps it is a keystone cop out - but what is always forgotten is that without the bettor there would be no horse racing.

 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:51 PM 

Seriously KK? Seriously?

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 1:58 PM 

@ Mike. even with the high takeout rates has that stoped you from playing the exotics ?


    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 11, 2012 2:02 PM
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 11, 2012 1:59 PM


 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 2:52 PM 

On a regular basis for a higher average wager? Yes.

Perfect example is that I used to follow SoCal year round with the exception of Del Mar. Once the exorbitant take increase a year and a half ago, I stopped following the circuit altogether.


    
This message has been edited by Boozer_1 on Jul 11, 2012 2:55 PM


 
 
sts
(Login sammythesage)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 5:32 PM 

@kk...By the way...rest of the world adores/loves soccer...we like American football...it IS WHAT IT is...and I like it THAT way...

 
 

Unusual Pete
(Login Unusual_Pete)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 5:44 PM 

America. Love it or leave it! Boom.

 
 
spiderjohn wayne
(Login spiderjohn)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 5:58 PM 

cool hoop--good luck with that one
I'll be watching--pretty exciting

soccer--yawn
dubai racing--yawn
wimbledon--yawn
any wimmins sport except sand volleyball--yawn+
real football--can't wait

and Lebron rules!

 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 7:12 PM 

"any wimmins sport except sand volleyball--yawn+"

LMAO!!! Love it.

 
 


(Login frangooch)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 11 2012, 9:49 PM 

I've enjoyed much of this thread. One of the better ones. I can't wait to see it reinvigorated if Treasure Beach doesn't win wink.gif

 
 
Ozzy
(Login DOsborne)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 1:22 AM 

KK, hate to take exception with your views again given your recency to the forum, but you are simply making it too easy!

No denying turf racing is woeful in the US. Easy rationale is the money, on the track and more importantly, off the track, is simply not there for a turf horse. In the US, it is all about dirt and to a large extent, speed on the dirt. Stamina,as in the ability to run fast going 1 1/2 or longer, is simpy lacking in the US breed today. One need to look no further than a race like the 1 1/2 Belmont and the recent history of some less than stellar victors or the poor excuse for a BC race, the Marathon, for any more proof.

As for your comments on breeding, where to start? Coolmore is a world wide player and has stations around the globe best suited for each location. No denying what they have done in Ireland where their stallions dominate but to say their entirety is based on turf racing is simply uninformed. Remember the $60 million they invested on FuPeg or the $25 million they invested in Cigar or the $16 million invested in The Green Monkey as an unproven 2YO? None of those had anything to do with ruling the world of breeding through turf dominance. They sought prospects to attract breeders in the US, on dirt, period. They purchased dirt performers to stand such Lookin At Lucky and Uncle Mo to appeal to American breeders, pure and simple. They were trying to cater to their American customer base as quite simply put, the US is where the money is. Uncle Mo stood his initial season at Ashford with great success and his career will be focused on standing in the US. While he will shuttle to Australia to stand the Southern Hemisphere season, that is simply an added bonus and I suggest you check his listed price there and reception, but it will be no where near what it was here this season. Even their star stallion, Giant's Causeway, is based exclusively in the US now despite his exploits during his career on the turf. The reason, he is bred for dirt and throws horses that can run on dirt.

Don't get me started on comparing stallions. Numbers may not outright lie, but can be massaged to support nearly any position as you fail to account for too many variables such as number of crops, total foals, total runners, total winners, inflated purses (um, Dubai races) and as others mention, toes numbers can be used to make a point by either side of an argument. Heck, we can't even agree as an industry how to determine the success of a stallion in a given year!

As for the comment on the Maktoum's, I think I know a good deal about the breeding industry here in the US. I walk it, breathe it, live it on a daily basis and I have no earthly idea what you are talking about. Sheikh Mohammed has a STRONG determination to win the world's premier race, the KY Derby. He has tried from many angles and has been unsuccessful so beginning in 2007, he changed his approach and we will see starting next year if breeding to top quality dirt horses rather than trying to buy them, is any more successful. As for the fees, it is a business and those who manage it for him make the calls and are getting what they can in today's market. If he ever threatened to take his studs and go home to Dubai, who would breed to them outside of his inner circle?

As for Japan, Sunday Silence and IHA aside, horses shipped to Japan such as Silver Charm, Empire Maker, and Charismatic all were given some chance to stand in the US before being sold for duty in Japan and simply were not able to cut the mustard with American breeders for whatever reason.

So, my long-worded reply is I agree, turf breeding is way off in the US; the reasons are money and relevance. If you have a plan to address either of those issues, I am all ears, however, criticizing the current US industry because it is not doing things the way others does not validate your opinion.

 
 
sts
(Login sammythesage)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 8:19 AM 

I'll venture to say if the heat is over 90 come race time...Treasure Beach is toast...at least I'll bet that way...

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 10:54 AM 

Coolmore investing in dirt stallions is at least an attempt to branch out. when was the last time an American based breeding outfit made an attempt to do so in turf racing ? turf horses bring the stamina, something that is really lacking in the US. we have now become a nation that considers 1m 1/8 a marathon distance. I see a problem with that. just look at the greatest stayer of all time Yeats. he won the ascot gold cup a record 4 times. at 20 furlongs each. thats 80 furlongs in just those 4 races. how often do we produce horses that go 80 furlongs in a career ? let alone in only 4 races. the stamina issue wont be address until the American breeders began to address the turf. As long as the speed is accepted the stamina will be neglected.

 
 


(Login frangooch)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 1:36 PM 

I've asked this question before, but I forget the answer:

In a sport where TC victories are the gold standard, and where our most valuable sires are accomplished at 10f, why do we breed for speed and not stamina (more often)?

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 1:57 PM 

My answer to that would be out side of the classics and the BC there is no need for 10+ furlong horses in the USA. just take a look at the average race card in the US and its unlikely you will see a race carded longer than 1m 1/16th. very sad. more races are run at 6 furlongs in the US than in any country in the world.


    
This message has been edited by keystone-king on Jul 12, 2012 1:58 PM


 
 
gallantbob
(Login gallantbob)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 2:04 PM 

You can card a race at whatever distance you want and someone will get to the wire first. If horses are bred more or less the same, the playing field is even and the race is competitive. Substitute "brilliance" for "speed." American breeders breed in the hopes that a horse's "brilliance" will enable it to outlast opponents over a distance of ground. The genetic ability to run far fast has for the most part been bred out of the American thoroughbred. Anyone think Secretariat's Triple Crown times will ever be lowered?

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 2:07 PM 

@GB no argument here. the american TB has lost stamina.

 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 2:14 PM 

There's a big difference in cushion depth and sand content in tracks today vs. tracks in the 70's. Jerry Brown posted some interesting stuff about it over at Thoro-Graph and its relation to final times then and now.

 
 

Cherokee Scot
(Login CherokeeScot)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 2:14 PM 

Somehow I don't see Calder showcasing the "Summit of Stamina " any time soon.

p.s. Bob , I thought Secretariat's Triple Crown times already had been lowered !


    
This message has been edited by CherokeeScot on Jul 12, 2012 2:21 PM


 
 
gallantbob
(Login gallantbob)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 12 2012, 2:37 PM 

You've made my point, Bev. Big Red's been dead twenty-three years and hes' still the only one who could break his records. (And it's been twenty-three years since any horse came within two seconds of his Belmont). All due respect to Jerry Brown and with admittedly not reading his piece, breeding supersedes cushion depth and sand content when attempting to explain the inability of a horse to negotiate twelve furlongs in under two and a half half minutes. Graph makers seem to be alone in rating today's thoroughbred as fast or faster as their ancestors. I remember the awe and reverence expressed when Alysheba ran off a string of unprecedented zeros as a four year old. Seems half the Derby field can run negative figures in three year old preps these days.

 
 

Spanky
(Login spanky126)
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Spider...Eat Your Heart Out!

July 12 2012, 10:06 PM 

"any wimmins sport except sand volleyball--yawn+real football--can't wait and Lebron rules"!


[linked image]

I predict Lebron will be like Dan Marino...experts said he'd win a closet full of SB trophies...whoops...James can't even get into the conversation until his ring collection matches Kobe, Michael or Shaq IMO...

 
 

(Login Tracery)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 12:32 AM 

The Whole World Knows that Milers Make the Best Sires!

John Nerud

The man responsible for Tartan farm's Florida-bred runners back in the 1950s and 1960s was visiting the Hall of Fame in Saratoga. He is 98.

In discussing some of todays topics, Nerud said of the horses being bred today, Theyre breeding horses for the market; cosmetic horses, he said. When I bred horses in Ocala, I thought I had good yearlings. When I went to the yearling sales in Kentucky, those horses were bigger and rosier, and better looking. I said, I must be missing something. But when we got to Belmont and Saratoga, Id wind up beating those horses, so I knew something was wrong. They were giving growth hormones and anabolic steroids to those horses, which made them big, muscular, fancy-looking horses, but they didnt improve their bone; there was too much muscle for the bone. And thats why were having trouble today.

And we retire horses now that started five times. You breed them to a mare that started three times and youre going to get a horse that starts four times. Its as simple as that.


 
 

(Login DOsborne)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 12:32 AM 

"Coolmore investing in dirt stallions is at least an attemp to branch out"

Are you serious? Have you looked at the stallion rooster? It is loaded with nothing but dirt runners.

http://www.coolmore.com/roster.php?list=america

Cape Blanco might be the true exception but he is here because he dominated to turf division last year here and with Galileo still in Ireland, why not take a chance here. Henrythenavigator is here because he is a multiple G1 winning son of Kingmambo, a stallion now unavailable who produced dirt runners and because he ran very well in the BC Classic on synthetic when that surface was all the rage. The reason is simple....provide customers what they want and watch the money follow. Simple principle of business.

As for farms not trying to stand turf horses, ask Lanes End how the books of accomplished turf horses After Market, Courageous Cat, English Channel, Langfuhr, and Shakespeare are comparing to dirt horses such as Twirling Candy, Quality Road, Rodk Hard Ten, or Curlin.

Racing in the US is dirt, pure and simple. You are correct in that over 60% of all races run are carded at 6f or less. The sport here is for the gambler, not the purist. Wishing for change is not going to make it happen.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 12:44 AM 

Well at the ripe old age of 29 I'm proud to consider myself a purest.

 
 

Cherokee Scot
(Login CherokeeScot)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 8:42 AM 

Wow, finally I'm speechless. As a newcomer we are all prepared to cut you some slack so maybe you should lighten up a tad.

ps Here at UIC we reserve headlines like WOW for big stories like I'll Have Another pulling out of the Belmont or Spanky making a winning bet not two English guys called Simon talking about the weather.


    
This message has been edited by CherokeeScot on Jul 13, 2012 8:49 AM
This message has been edited by CherokeeScot on Jul 13, 2012 8:43 AM


 
 

'gooch
(Login frangooch)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 9:42 AM 

Well, I was a bit argumentative at that age, before I became the model of diplomacy that I am today......

 
 


(Login JBaker826)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 13 2012, 9:45 AM 

'Gooch you and the late Rodney King (RIP) are the poster children for "can't we all just get along" wink.gif


    
This message has been edited by JBaker826 on Jul 13, 2012 9:45 AM


 
 
Ozzy
(Login DOsborne)
UpInClass Member

Final response to Keystone-King....

July 13 2012, 3:37 PM 


I seriously doubt there are few that possess a more pure love for the sport of thoroughbred racing than I. While this group is comprised of individuals that typically are not those to brag or boast about "who I am or what I do", I think you need to realize the quality of individuals that participate in this forum and that the insight and knowledge they possess might be on a much higher plane than yours at this point in your life.

My personal story, I am not just a fan...I have grown up in central KY my entire life, been fortunate enough to experience things many who love this sport can only dream of. Was a "Calumet Kid" in the late 70's and early 80's, outfitted in devil's red with blue stripes of some kind in every season. My first memory at the track is of Alydar breaking from the post parade in the Bluegrass Stakes to make his way to the outside rail to see an ailing Mrs. Wright. I am privileged enough to have access to the stars of the sport and events at such a level that quite honestly is unparralled by all but a few. I participate in all aspects of this industry and have dedicated my professional life over the past 15 years to doing so, and will continue to do so for the foreseable future. I've bought, sold, and raced from Woodbine to Del Mar, Maiden Claimers at Penn National to Grade 1 stakes at Keeneland. I think I am more than qualified to speak about the industry with some base of knowledge and quite frankly, all that I have on my resume pales in comparison to many who post here day in and day out. I've learned to enjoy to sit back and digest in an attempt to separate the brillance from the BS, laugh often, share on occassion, and even disagree and debate from time to time, but doing so with respect. It amazes me that you and I are a mere 7 years apart in age, yet the difference in conducting oneself with decorium and professionalism appears so vast. While I love this sport and the animals and individuals who comprise it in a love only a purist could possess, at the "ripe old age" of 36, I am also a realist and recognize that the masses may not always hold the same beliefs as do I. Despite the relative closeness of our ages keystone king, it appears that there really must be some vast generational gap between those in their 20's and those in their 30's. While it is certainly ok to romaticize about the past and how that aspect is what makes this sport so great, the simple fact remains that today, in the United States, the sport is about Gambling. Dirt. Speed. Without acknowledging that fact, catering to those masses to keep the money flowing in to keep the sport going, there is no sport of horse racing.

In conclusion, welcome to the forum.

 
 

(Login DOsborne)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 4:57 PM 

Seems America's Point Of Entry ( and Center Divider, and Tahoe Lake, and Newssad for that matter), did just fine against the big bad Turfbred Monster from Europe today....
('gooch... You asked for it!)

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 5:07 PM 

Give credit for TB traveling THOUSANDS of miles. POI won today but I sure would like to see how he would perform after traveling thousands of miles and 48 hrs in detention.

 
 


(Login frangooch)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 5:35 PM 

I did?

 
 
Small Mac
(Login maclr11)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 5:40 PM 

You certainly do not do yourself any favours do you.
Treasure Beach didn't have to come here, he got beat, fair and square, if you can't handle losing don't ship, dont leave the barn.
Point of Entry was quite dominant today, the only reason Treasure Beach is here is because he's not good enough to win back home so they tried to win over here and he was in a little tough today too.

Beautiful win by a horse who will be a player all year in the turf division.

 
 

(Login DOsborne)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 5:51 PM 

You did!

"I've enjoyed much of this thread. One of the better ones. I cant wait to see it reinvigorated if Treasure Beach doesn't win."

KK, so now you want to have a turf bred from Europe, even one that could be a B level horse, who doesnt even have to stay here and train here because the US stock is so bad that he should thump the stamina less US bred horses, receive credit for shipping? Sometimes it really pays to engage the brain before engaging the mouth (or fingers in this case). When you make such claims with absolute certainty, you leave yourself no room to wiggle out. No worries, I've done it MANY times and as recently as declaring no son of Dixie Union could ever get 1 1/2!

 
 


(Login frangooch)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 6:08 PM 

Gotcha, Oz. Forgot about that post. Thought I was being portrayed as a TB fancier, when in fact I bet against him (not that my horse came in!)

 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 6:17 PM 

KK, I'm more convinced you're interested in rustling people's jimmies with each post you make. It's adorable.

 
 


(Login CherokeeScot)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 6:17 PM 

Surely KK must have bet the winner of the nightcap at Woodbine !

 
 


(Login frangooch)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 6:20 PM 

haven't had my jimmies rustled in years.....

 
 

Jason
(Login JMAN667)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 7:05 PM 

Funny...as I placed my win wager on Point of Entry I was wondering if he won how KK would react. POE now undefeated at 1 3/8 or further.

Great to see one of the classiest, most well respected American connections dominate this race. Treasure Beach is an AOB second stringer.

 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 14 2012, 8:33 PM 

Saturday night's a good time to start then Gooch. It's never too late. wink.gif

 
 


(Login Paseana)
Stewards

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 12:49 AM 

This is just an AMAZING thread! This post is #88, and if there's another thread in the 8 year history of UpInClass with that many posts, we'll have to dig for it. And we have keystone-king to thank!

I don't know what happened to Treasure Beach today. He just ran around the track. The chart says that he was 6th most of the way, and passed one horse to wind up 5th, but his lengths behind the whole way around were between 5 & 6 lengths. He's a better horse than what he showed today. He won the Secretariat last year off the plane, so shipping really wasn't an issue. Belmont Park's turf course was firm today. It could be that Treasure Beach needs cut in the ground to run his best.

I actually had fun in the Man O'War even though I didn't cash. I played Center Divider to win and protected underneath Treasure Beach in the exacta. Center Divider finished 2nd at 17/1 and Treasure Beach was nowhere. It just goes to show that you can smoke out a long shot in a stakes race but playing that longshot correctly is much more challenging.

Keystone-king....thank you for this thread. There's a lot, my darling, that you have to learn, not even seeing your 30th birthday. Heck, I'm 64 years old and still look at myself as new to the game having been in it for only about 32 years.

Keep your passion Keystone-king. Just keep in mind that there are many members of this forum that have years of experience and knowledge, and if you're not willing to learn from them, you're in trouble.

 
 
gallantbob
(Login gallantbob)
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P.O.E.

July 15 2012, 1:23 AM 


 
 

'gooch
(Login frangooch)
UpInClass Member

Jimmies

July 15 2012, 11:38 AM 

I must lead a sheltered life, Mike. Somehow, I never heard this phrase before yesterday:

http://www.jimmyfungus.com/2012/04/that-really-rustled-my-jimmies-complete.html

 
 

(Login timmye1)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 11:49 AM 

Real men don't use that phrase here in Jersey. Hey Mike, where are you REALLY from? LOL


 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 1:55 PM 

LOL. Thanks for that link Gooch. One of those phrases that my buddy Richie always says and is now firmly entrenched in my head.

T, easy there feather boa guy. wink.gif

 
 
timmye1
(Login timmye1)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 2:08 PM 

Mike, don't forget the 8-inch pumps! LOL


 
 

(Login Boozer_1)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 2:17 PM 

LMAO! This shows that my memory is slipping because I totally forgot about those.

This thread really has a little something for everyone.

 
 
timmye1
(Login timmye1)
UpInClass Member

Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 15 2012, 2:32 PM 

Mike...seriously? I forgot all about the feathered boa until you brought it up. The only reason I mentioned the 8-inch pumps was because I never wore one without the other! LMFAO (now that's sick!)


 
 
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