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AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012 at 11:15 AM
keystone-king  (Login keystone-king)
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Its that time of the year. we are 4 months out from the breeders cup and turf racing is starting to pick up once again here in the US. But once again the state of American turf racing is so deplorable. one can go division by division and draw an absolute blank when it comes to potential leaders and stand outs in American turf racing. just imagine how good Dullahan,Creative Cause and a few others would have been by this point if they were not burnt out on the triple crown path.
horses like St .Nicholas Abby, Treasure Beach,City Scape,Cirrus Des Aigles, and Excelebration are all set up to take runs at the Arlington million, Man O war,
Secretariat, Joe Hirsch, Clement Hirsch, and Breeders Cup. who do the Americans have ?

 
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Jason Baker
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 1:58 PM 

You could expand this topic to almost every division except the older female dirt division.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 2:37 PM 

But the turf racing is like this year after year. the turf racing is so bad here in the states that all you need is a B level turf horse and you will make a lot of money, just look at what Cape Blanco did last year. He won 3 of the biggest turf races in the country and went back to Ireland after every one of them. Coolmore knew they didn't even have to keep him here to train.

 
 

Jason Baker
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 4:29 PM 

Not much of an argument here. I will stick up for Silver Max as he has developed a great win streak and is mowing down all comers, of course limited to three year olds.

 
 

Jason
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 4:45 PM 

The Europeans dominate the route turf races every year. With the exception of a few winners here and there, they have won the bulk of the Breeders Cup turf/mile races. They've even begun extending that out to the Juvi turf races since their inception. But much like they've dominated the turf, the Americans have dominated the dirt races. Second stringers even win the BC. Dangerous Midge anyone? Loved him in the BC, but he really is a second tier type.

This year the division appears to be exceptionally soft. If Acclimation remains healthy and carries his form from last year through this year he might be able to make a dent on the division. The Breeders Cup is also on his home track, the same course that Pressious Passion nearly wired the field over a few years back (running one of the gamest races I've ever seen a horse run).

I'm with you on Silver Max JB. I love that "take the race to them" from gate to wire style. I think he's more suited for a mile than 1 1/2, then again Turbo Compressor has stretched out nicely.

 
 
Mike
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 5:03 PM 

Dirt racing is and always will be what the U.S. is all about. It's just how it is. Turf racing, while providing excellent wagering opportunities on a day to day basis, is an afterthought in this country at the highest level for the most part. I don't see this changing any time soon. With that said, we've held our own on Cup day over the years.

 
 

'gooch
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 5:32 PM 

Seems like we've done better in the Mile. Been awhile since Better Talk Now, and not a ton of winners before him. Euros breed for it, train for it, and run more races on it, so it seems natural that they should excel on Turf.

 
 

Paseana
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 10:54 PM 

Yeah Frank, of the 28 runnings of the BC Mile, a surprising 15 of them were won by horses who weren't just off the plane! What I mean by that is some of them may have originally been based overseas, but were sent here well in advance of their Breeders Cup Mile triumph. That was really quite shocking when I laid it out in front of me. My memory of some of the winners of that race isn't crystal clear, so I might be off by 1 or two, but it's still really not that bad of a record for us.

I counted 10 BC Turf winners (11 if we get to count Canadian invader Chief Bearheart) that were American based, but a particularly telling thing about that is that SIX of those came in the first 10 runnings of the race, with only 4 (Buck's Boy, Johar, Better Talk Now, and English Channel, + the aforementioned Chief Bearheart if he counts) coming since 1993.....that's like the last 18 runnings of the race! Our record in this 12f race has been pretty dismal, especially over the last nearly 2 decades. I guess that really surprises no one.

The BC turf race where we've done the most damage though is the F&M Turf. 13 runnings and we've won 7 of them, which is solid. The Euros in that one only number 5, due to the double from Ouija Board, with the others being Bank's Hill, Islington, Lahudood, and Midday. Lahudood did run in the Flower Bowl before her Breeders Cup win, but that's certainly not enough to magically make her American-based. The caveat in this is that the last two winners, American-based Shared Account and Perfect Shirl were both likely more lucky than good, as the saying goes.

I didn't bother with the new Juvie turf races. The sample size just isn't enough to draw any significant conclusions from.

It was an interesting exercise, and actually, we haven't performed as horribly as we seem to like to think we have. happy.gif

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 9 2012, 11:52 PM 

Dirt racing is the only thing keeping us relevant. if we raced on turf like the rest on the world we would get blown off the map.

 
 

Jason
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 12:10 AM 

I don't really get the relevance of that statement. If the Euros raced on dirt they would get blown out of the water.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:01 AM 

American horses dont win outside of the US, Dubai was once the place where american horses found riches but that was long ago. america is the only country in the world that races on dirt. everybody else uses poly or turf. two surfaces american horse dont excel on. when was the last time an americn horse won a G1 on poly or turf outside of the US ? I know there are many who think that our horses are the best but the reality is they are not.

 
 

Ziggy
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 6:30 AM 

Plain and simple, Poly sucks!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_racetrack_surfaces_for_horse_racing

We have no proof the Poly version is better on the horse, Cushion track bombed once and not many are using the safest of all the 'polys', Tapeta.

So US horses fair worse than the rest of the WORLD in head to head competition. You know it's not the United Countries of the World. Stack US horses up against any one of those other SINGLE countries and this argument starts falling apart.

Hell lets hold ALL BC's at GP and lets watch the foreign turf competition fold up like a cheap tent because they can't handle the heat wink.gif

And if you don't like dirt racing, then go ahead and bet England, Australia, US Poly ..... pretty sure you can if you try ..... but leave my dirt alone!!!!!

Z~i~g~g~y~

 
 

Jason
(Login JMAN667)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 11:53 AM 

Totally agree Ziggy, get rid of the Poly and bring the ol' dirt back. I'd be ecstatic if they did that at Del Mar. Then there might be a chance of a Breeders Cup going there


The US is not the only place in the world where there is dirt racing. Japan has a ton of major dirt stakes races.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 1:04 PM 

It's not about Dirt vs Turf. its about making the US a better racing nation. what's the purpose of having a turf course if we cant breed breed G1 winners on the world stage. its not the stone age anymore where horses don't travel. the world is becoming a smaller place and its time we catch up because we have been behind far to long.the Frankels and Black Caviars of the world don't need to come here because they will be facing c string turf horses but yet for some reason they have their detractors because they are not coming to the breeders cup. that's crazy. and yes japan does have dirt racing but for some reason American connections don't make their way over their, they use to travel to japan back in the day for the japan cup though but they don't go for the dirt races ?

 
 

Jason
(Login JMAN667)
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 1:24 PM 

I see your point, and don't totally disagree. However, the Breeders Cup has been established as the year end championship races for this country and those are the races everyone points towards. They have lucrative purses and lure in horses from all over the world. There are 2 seasons in American horse racing and they revolve around the Kentucky Derby and the Breeders Cup. Everything in between is generally a prep for those two events.

American connections don't really need to go anywhere. For the most part we breed for speed on the dirt. The Sadlers Wells types don't have much opportunity in this country outside the Arlington Million and Breeders Cup Turf, so why travel abroad? Dubai's purses are so high, and early enough in the season that horses can recover from that trip, so their an exception. Why travel to Europe in June when the BC is 3 or so months away? Del Mar/Saratoga is in Jul/Aug/Sep and feature the best horses domestically while running for the highest purses in the country on a daily basis. It doesn't make sense.

In regards to your comment about "making the US a better racing nation" that's a subject that could go a million different directions. However, being a SoCal horse player I would suggest we take a lesson from some of our international counterparts and scale down the race days so a better product can be put out there. Only race Fri-Sun if that's all the horse population can sustain, but put out a product over those 3 days that are going to ensure the masses come back.


They have Black Caviar...we had Zenyatta.

They have Frankel...we had Ghostzapper.

 
 

'gooch
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:10 PM 

This has little to do with the topic at hand, but I have to say that as a fan and recreational bettor, day to day I enjoy watching and betting on turf races a lot more, excepting the Triple Crown races. I'm not sure I can put my finger on why. It's more pleasing to the eye, for one thing. The races are more exciting--there seem to be fewer runaway romps and fewer pluggers particpating. Pedigree seems more reliable when sizing up a horse (although I have zero data on this). I'd like to see more of it, and fewer low level claimers on dirt. I think Jason's onto something with the 3 day race week. I'd contract the sport all over the place, but that was a different argument;-) JMO.

 
 

Jason Baker
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:16 PM 

Keystone- there is a larger point to be made that is a subtext to this conversation. American breeders control the quality of racing in this country and the biggest breeding money is spent on horses that can run long on dirt. If it paid more to breed world class turf horses, the boys and girls in Kentucky would do it.

As for traveling, there are really only two world wide events that can lure Americans- the Japan Cup and Dubai.

 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:25 PM 

JPR just sent ill have another to japn for 10 mill so your view of american breeders spending money on horses that run long on the dirt is suspect. John Magnier and Mike Tabor have built coolmore on turf racing because its the surface of the world. and thus more breeding money comes in.

 
 

Jason Baker
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:33 PM 

Totally wrong. It is well known that I'll Have Another is not as valuable because Flower Alley is in his breeding prime, is not yet a highly respected sire and there is not enough perceived added value in IHA's breeding to fetch the type of numbers that Uncle Mo, Looking at Lucky or others have in recent time.


    
This message has been edited by JBaker826 on Jul 10, 2012 2:34 PM


 
 
keystone-king
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Re: AMERICAN TURF RACING

July 10 2012, 2:45 PM 

FA maybe in his breeding prime but seriously what are the odds that he can reproduce anything close to IHA ? lets get real. and IHA is not the first or the last American classic winners to be shunned or sent off to japan. remember Sunday silence ? charismatic ? empire maker ? silver charm ?

 
 
 
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