That's brutal, CB. But I think I'd take Tiznow. His early speed ensures a good trip, and at his best, he just flat wouldn't let another horse go by. Giant's Causeway couldn't. Sakhee couldn't. I'm inclined to say Curlin couldn't either.
As 3yo's people. You cannot include what Tiznow did as a 4yo because Curlin hasn't gotten their yet. Secondly, look at the body of work and not just 1 or 2 races. BTW lets throw in Point Given in the mix being that these 3 are the only 3yo's to win HOY in this millennium.
I was going to ask Timmye.......which 3yo are ya talkin' 'bout?
My initial reaction to CB's question was to answer with another question.
Is Hard Spun really Tiznow, to anyone's way of thinking?
I honestly think that Hard Spun has proven to have the biggest heart of all them in this pretty phenomenal 3yo crop. But can anyone really envision Curlin just rolling by Tiznow like he was standing still? I can't. Like Vagrant said, neither Giant's Causeway nor Sahkee could do it, and while I'm awestruck at what Curlin has done this year, I'm not ready to say that he's another Giant's Causeway.....yet. Sahkee maybe, but there's quite a difference between the Arc and the JCGC as a prep for the Classic, if you can call the Arc a "prep"! LOL!
Curlin might have beaten Tiznow with a performance like the one he turned in on Saturday. It would HAVE to be!
I give it to the transcendental heart of Tiznow.
This message has been edited by Paseana on Oct 31, 2007 11:14 PM
I'll take Curlin's 3 yr. old season over Tiznow but what a choice to have to make. Tiznow didn't face olders until the Classic if I'm not mistaken whereas Curlin beat one of the favorite's for HOY in Lawyer Ron before facing them again in the Classic. I agree on Tiznow's heart but think Curlin may just run by him. Curlin has showed he could get by great horses when he bested LR and Street Sense in stretch battles. I think he would be better suited to take a run at Tiznow than surface switching GC and Sakhee were. Hopefully we will see Curlin given a break and brought back to run as a 4 yr. old - which if he holds to form will end up making him the all time money winner most likely should he start in Dubai and end up in the Classic again. He is a special, special animal - as is Tiznow - and I truly hope we have not seen the last of him.
As a 3yo, Tiznow finished second to Skimming (the Denizen of Del Mar) in the Pacific Classic, and he won the Goodwood Hcp in a ferocious battle with Captain Steve (another 3yo), who was third in the parade of 4 3yos making up the superfecta in that year's Classic.
Point Given and Holy Bull were terrific horses. But neither ran in the Classic, and both were well-beaten in the Derby. Those are the signature races of any 3YO who wants to be considered "great."
On his body of work, Curlin laps any horse mentioned. Ran all three legs of the TC, never finished worse than 3rd, and won the Classic. He's by far the most complete 3YO we've seen since Unbridled or Alysheba.
Holy Bull? Outstanding at his best, when most everything went his way. But I can't endorse any 3YO who punked out on the TC the way he did. Dismal Derby and a no-show in the Preakness and Belmont -- and Classic. Holy Bull was arguably an inherently better horse than Go for Gin, but Go for Gin danced the big dances, never finishing worse than 2nd in the TC, and at least showed up for the Classic.
I agree with whomever said that Point Given might be the best of them all. The Derby was his only bad race -- and that's partly due to a very bad, overconfident ride by Gary Stevens. He never lost again. His crushing, cruising Belmont score was the most dominant race by a 3YO since ... dare I say? ... Secretariat. And it wasn't his fault that he didn't contest the Classic.
I'm still not sure that ANYONE gets by Tiznow in peak form. But if we're talking about the best 3YOs of the past 15 years, I can't go with one who didn't even show up for the 3YO classics -- TC + Travers.
P.S.: The vastly underrated Tabasco Cat deserves some props. A Preakness-Belmont winner who came w/in a whisker of winning the Classic.
I'm kinda surprised no one has yet mentioned Easy Goer in this mix. Yeah, he lost two of the three Triple Crown races AND the BC Classic, but geeeze, if it hadn't been for just one other horse, he would have completed an almost unthinkable thing these days......The Triple Crown-Breeders Cup Classic double! And in his spare time, he managed to annex the Wood, the Whitney, the Travers, the Woodward, and the JCGC......all at three!
Of course, to be fair, the same could be said for the bane of his existence, Sunday Silence, only in a way, more painfully for that one. Sunday lost but one race to Goer, and but for that one race, that monstrous racing double (TC-BCC) would have been his.
I think it's really something how the east-west fan rivalry with these two still goes on undiminished after 18 years (can it really be that long?)!
Funny how great horses seem to come in pairs. Easy Goer probably jackstomps every 3YO since 1990.
Then there's Alydar, who w/o Affirmed, would've won the 1978 TC by a combined 21 lengths.
And poor Sham!
Sham reminds me of something I told a good friend of mine recently. He was bemoaning the indifferent performance of his beloved Broncos. I told him it was a good year to have a bad team. Better to have no hope than to have the Patriots crush your hopes.
1. Gimme Cordero on Easy Goer and the score's different. 2. Curlin went straight from MSW to new trainer to Rebel-Ark.Derby-The Big One-The Short One-The Long One-Haskell-JCGC-BC Classic. Talk about ambitious and still at optimum level at the end of the year. Tiznow had more early lick, but keep in mind Curlin broke his maide at 7f first time out by 12 on the engine. They actually changed his running style after that romp. Tough call yo. FYI, if all the top 3yo's on this millennium are in the gate, I would take Fusaichi Pegasus going 10f. But Curlin is a nut. Straight up nut.
I admit I wasn't sold on Curlin until after the Ky. Derby, when he ran a really good race for a "green" lightly raced horse.
I LOVED him in the Preakness and since.
He's not flashy, with that long, loping stride, but is he powerfully built, or what? Not to mention that he's just a gorgeous animal. And he gets the job done. When he came out onto the track for the Classic, I told my friend that he looked like a locomotive, the way he's built.
And he ran like one.
You are brutal - lol! It was also a real pleasure to spend sometime with at Monmouth, look forward to the next time!
Curlin's three year old season has been nothing less than remarkable, absolutely impressive what he's accomplished in such a short time and hoping that we get to see him next year. Arkansas Derby winner, third in the Derby, winner of the Preakness, second in the Belmont, third in the Haskell, and winner of the JCGC and the Classic, a special colt for sure.
Point Given's resume is missing the wins against elders, through no fault of his own, but other than that equally impressive and for me his performances in the Preakness, Belmont and Travers outshine Curlin.
Tiznow's resume as a three year old doesn't compare to either Curlin or Point Given but what a heart he had. He was incredibly game, and when he got hooked was one of those who just would not give an inch.
Anyhow, as three year olds I'd rank them Point Given, Curlin, Tiznow.
Keep in mind that this millennium has brought us some other nice 3yo's to include FuPeg, Red Bullet, Monarchos, Congaree, Smarty Jones, Birdstone, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Street Sense and of course the freak named Barbaro. Horse racing's OK. Ya Think?
Sorry, guys, but I can't canonize FuPeg or Barbaro.
FuPeg's Derby winning Beyer is among the slowest of the past 15 years. He never franked his form at a classic distance. Well-beaten in the Preakness (Beyer: 103), crushed in the Classic.
Barbaro faced a sub-par Derby field. He was great that day, but his competiton was weak. The best of them went on to prove they weren't very good by any objective measure. Jazil won a depleted Belmont with an awful Beyer of 102. Bluegrass Cat won the Haskell with a tepid 106.
Barbaro damn sure didn't face any horses the caliber of Hard Spun and Curlin. Or Any Given Saturday, for that matter. Subtract Hard Spun and Street Sense wins the Derby by 8 over a future Classic champion.
Vagrant, The Great One beat the scrubs like they were scrubs, what's wrong with that? Instead of getting caught up in the who did he beat game, let's look at the body of work (albeit tragically abbreviated). Find for me a 2yo horse who runs faster at EVERY call including FINAL time as G2 older turf runners on the SAME CARD. Then after you found that horse, find me another who wins the Derby with out ever being even SHOWN the whip, much less actually hit by it. Now let's talk speed, The Great One has the best turf figure EVER handed out for a 2yo and he has the best winning Derby figure for as long as they've been doing Graphs, and that includes Street Sense/Hard Spun/Curlin derby that we're propping up so much. Even if you wanna talk Beyers, The Great One's derby was faster, and anyone who watched the race would have a hard time convincing me that with even a modicum of encouragement in the lane that 6.5 winning margin couldn't have been 12.5. I'm not even gonna touch the fact that Curlin is running under the influence of a repeated cheater, but that's best saved for another thread.
Barbaro was a great horse, but he would have had to run the best race of his life to beat Bernardini in the preakness. Just think how good of a 4year old Bernardini would have been.
A vote for Curlin. He placed in all 3 Triple Crown races, winning the Preakness and won in Dubai. Oh, he placed in a G1 on the turf too and it ain't over yet.....
Robert, I'd give pretty much anything if we could go back in time to that Preakness and see what would have happened barring tragedy.
I wasn't a Curlin fan, but he's growing on me since he's stuck around and actually keeps racing (imagine that). Of all the runners from last year's class, even as much of a Street Sense fan as I was, the thing I regret most was not seeing Hard Spun trying the turf. Danzig on top, Turkoman on the bottom, with 7f sprint speed and 10f route speed, if EVER there was a Lure reincarnate Hard Spun was it, we just never got to see it.
