There is so much confusion on this issue and no one seems to believe it when we say the fights that Bart did in Japan were not exhibition-only or “worked” matches. The problem is that in Japan there was organizations doing worked matches but there were also real matches called "shoot" matches. “Shoot” was always an underground term among wrestlers and other submission grapplers to signify that the fights would be real, and not exhibition-only, or staged to have a pre-determined outcome. More importantly, unlike in America, the terms Wrestling and Professional Wrestling have an entirely different meaning. Here we think of groups like the WWF/WWE, etc. In Japan, it had a much broader general meaning, as almost all forms of grappling, including even Judo and Sumo, can often be described or labeled under "Wrestling". Many things do not translate between Japanese and English well, as it is also true for many other foreign terms lacking an exact English equivalent. I’ll start from the beginning and if I miss-spell someone’s name please forgive me in advance, and for some of the people I only have last names.
Universal Wrestling Federation -
This was an organization that did both worked and “shoot” matches. Ask yourself how many times does the average fighter fight in the UFC … maybe two or three times a year on average? They were fighting almost every week and training six days a week. It made sense that every couple of fights you did an "exhibition" because that was how you made your living and no matter how good you are injuries are going to happen. This organization only lasted from the late 70's to early 80's. When it shut down some of the members created a new organization. When you do a search on you tube of “UWF”, this is usually the stuff that comes up. A lot of it is worked matches and of course tends to confuse people.
UWF -
The biggest confusion is that they used the same initials. But the initials didn't stand for anything … it was just called the UWF, as partially a reference to their roots in the former Universal Wrestling Federation. If you have ever been to Japan you would see that when they translate English words it often comes out pretty strange. The most notable members of this later UWF were:
Unlike the former Universal Wrestling Federation, the UWF never did any worked matches, as their primary reason for restarting the group under a new banner was their interest in showcasing shoot style matches, and NOT “staged” or exhibition matches. In fact they would often bring in Muay Thai Kickboxing champions, Olympic Judo champions, Olympic Wrestlers from any competitions from around the world to fight. They ran the organization similarly to how the sumo stables are ran. You were paid to train and fight … thus a professional. Unlike today you only get paid to show up and fight as a competitor. Fujiwara and Soranaka did the training of the fighters. This laid the foundation for Shootfighting. What we teach today is what Fujiwara taught to Bart. This organization eventually shut down and became The P.W.F.G.
P.W.F.G. (Professional Wrestling Fujiwara Gumi)
The P.W.F.G. came around when some restructuring of the UWF happened. Some of the original UWF fighters left to open their own fight companies (more on that later). Also I believe there was a change in the sponsors too. Just like the UWF they never did any worked matches. Here is another problem with our present day perceptions on these organizations. Both the UWF (remember the 2nd version) and the PWFG had televised events but they were never broadcast in America like some of the much later Pancrase and other later organizations were. I still watch old Pancrase fights on the local stations here in San Francisco. I haven’t seen any of those fights on you tube or anywhere else of mention on the Internet. What Zach posted was some Pancrase fights, which are contemporaries of the PWFG. It is the same but it is still not those fights from the UWF or the PWFG. When you type in UWF on you tube you get stuff not from these organizations and yes there are ways to tell. Most of the fights are miss-labeled on you tube. An interesting note is that Sakuraba, who is famous now in Pride, originally was an apprentice at the PWFG and got most of his early training there. So was Wayne “Ken” Shamrock, who would later leave to Pancrase (more on that in a minute), then in and out of the UFC, and of course later in the WWF in America (worked matches of course).
As I said before some of the original members of the 2nd UWF started their own fight companies. Most notably are the following:
Pancrase -
Started by Funaki and Suzuki, both students of Yoshiaki Fujiwara. After competing in the PWFG Ken Shamrock was kicked out of the company, for lack of better terms, being a complete jerk and being difficult to deal with. Most of the other fighters, especially the Japanese, did not want to work with him. They later approached Fujiwara and Soranaka and said if he didn’t go, they would. He then went to Pancrase. Several other famous names like Bas Rutten and Josh Barnett also came out of Pancrase. Josh Barnett also claims the Shoot style as his primary style. This is important to note as both he and Shamrock received their training from either Fujiwara and Soranaka, or their students such as Funaki and Suzuki. This was several years after Bart had been competing and winning in the UWF and PWFG.
Rings -
Originally called UWF rings. Maeda started this company. Maeda has fought in many Shoot style matches and even more worked/exhibition style matches in many countries.
UWFi -
The “I” stood for International. Takeda started this company.
This was primarily an exhibition-only company. Another confusion if you look in YOUTUBE.
Shooto -
This was Siam’s company. This was a "Shoot" only company, as their name was meant to emphasize. It was called “Shooto” because that’s how the Japanese pronounce “Shoot”, just as they pronounce “Bart Vale” as “Barto Vale”.
Shootfighting and the ISFA -
Started by Bart Vale.
BattleARTS -
Started by Yuki “Toy” Ishikawa.
Most of the professional fighters in Japan today in some way or another either come directly from, or at least owe most of their knowledge, to the two companies started and headed by Fujiwara and Soranaka. This absolutely paved the way for modern mixed martial arts / MMA to even exist. Ask any of them if Fujiwara or Bart’s fights were “worked” or staged. The rules were different back then. It was a thirty-minute straight round … no breaks. They didn’t wear gloves because gloves didn't exist yet and the gloves that did interfered too much with the hands being able to perform all of the submission holds. This is why instead they did strikes to the head with an open palm, which of course does even more damage to the head if you want to talk about reality. Are you going to have the time to wrap your hands before a fight on the street? Doing “ground and pound” without a glove is a good way to end your career by getting multiple fractures to your wrists, fingers and knuckles. Look at the early days of UFC … it doesn’t look at all like it does today. Does this mean it was all worked matches too?
So, for hopefully the last time, YES, all of Bart’s fights in Japan were real. All of Fujiwara’s shoot style fights were real. Did some of the people in the UWF and PWFG at other times and in other organizations do worked matches too? Sometimes … but when they fought for Fujiwara they were all real. Just because it doesn't look like the ground and pound or BJJ you might be familiar with in America, it does not mean that it’s fake and won't work … if you need proof go ask Bart. I did not get this info second hand. It comes from being around and training directly with Fujiwara, Bart, Ishikwawa, and my instructor Robert Yard (who is a first generation student of Bart’s), something that I am grateful that he has given me the opportunity to do. You can confirm these facts with sources in Japan if you wish or you can use common sense and get on the mat and see if it works. Ask Zach … we can back up our claims by showing you it works. I hope what I wrote here today helps. If I misspelled any names I apologize, as I’m not a professional author or writer… I’m a professional martial arts instructor and unfortunately I can only give a general time frame to the start of these companies as I wasn't there, but I do know in what order they went.
I'm glad you accidently started a new thread on this. There is a TON of good information on here that is pertinant to the other discussion and now it won't get lost in the other responses.
There was a UWF that was fake. But there was another UWF that wasn't fake. Bart fought in real matches in the "real" UWF, but not the "fake" UWF. Also, no one outside of Japan can keep straight which UWF the fights are so we have no way of knowing which ones are which (other than the ones Bart was in). I find this a little hard to believe, particularly since there is conveniently no way to prove or disprove your assertion.
I suggest you reread the initial thread that started this whole discussion and watch the highlight video to the other fights posted. Compare the fights, how they go, and what the techniques look like. The controversy was not if Bart Vale was a real fighter. Nor was it that his shootfighting was good or bad. It was that some of the fights he was in, and the one's shown in the video, were professional wrestling fights with predetermined outcomes as opposed to competitive fights.
Can you honestly say to yourself that the highlight film fights and the two that we know to be legitimate even remotely resemble each other?
Being a professional wrestler who has done both real and predetermined fights does not take anything away from your fighting ability or validity of technique. However, denying reality does.
For reference, I've included a link to a great article that gives a detailed overview of the origins of Japanese professional wrestling and it's links to MMA. I've included a section which talks about UWF and Ken Shamrock. It puts a lot in perspective that will be of value to the readers of this board.
The UWF promised a more realistic style than New Japan and promoted itself as if it were real. This perception was bolstered by Maeda's chaotic history. Maeda was involved in pro wrestling matches that disintegrated into shoots with major stars including Andre the Giant, Satoru Sayama and Riki Choshu.
Ken Shamrock believes many of the fans were fooled into believing the UWF was real.
"Everything they did with punches and kicks and submissions would work in a real life situation, so it was hard to tell if they were being applied or not applied," Shamrock says. "It was hard to tell what was real and what wasn't."
The results of the UWF were still predetermined, but the business was moving more toward reality. This new direction was a smashing success. The first major UWF show sold out a 12,000-seat arena in 15 minutes, with high ticket prices. The main event featured Maeda defeating karate star Gerard Gordeau, more than five years before Gordeau would make it to the finals of UFC 1 against Royce Gracie."
Well that explains why "Bas" got beaten by "Ken" both times they met. I was wondering about that. Makes you wonder about all the other match's that are on display now.
Keeping in the nature of this thread...everything is fake or predetermined "outcomes". Why not let this die here & now! Since it's all a big entertainment venue. LOL...and everybody is an expert and knows the real truth. Here's some advise get back to what your discipline is and train. Just my two cents worth.
In that article, Ken is referencing the original Universal Wrestling Federation, and NOT the later group under only the initials UWF. However the footage in question is from neither anyway... it is from the P.W.F.G. There is no mention of Ken of those fights being staged, because they weren't. Again, he is referencing the first incarnation of 3 groups total who used the initials "U.W.F.", the Universal Wrestling Federation, the "UWF", and the Universal Wrestling Federation International (UWFi).
According to official MMA statistics from mixedmartialarts.com, fights from New Japan, which was famous for doing worked matches throughout their history, are included in several fighters histories of wins and losses, such ast Josh Barnett, as recently as only a few years ago.
So using your logic, are all of Josh Barnett's fights staged? And Bas Rutten's? And Ken Shamrock's? And Bart Vale's? Just because some statistic gathering groups haven't included all fights since the beginning of time, or more importantly since the UFC I, doesn't mean they didn't happend and doesn't mean they weren't real.
The fights look different from the later mixed martial arts matches in America because it was using different rules, and at a different time.
Its sad that people want to listen to the hype instead of people who were actually there. Im not naive I know when someone is pushing an agenda. I prefer to listen to people who were there. And for the record the information i have posted has come from more than just Bart Vale and Fujiwara. I have been to japan I have trained wtih these two greats of MMA. But I have also talked to people in japan outside of the organization. I know what i said to be true. Japan was doing organized MMA (even if it wasn't called MMA at the time) more than a decade before the first UFC. There were many organizations and incarnations of sponsors schools and fight events. The UFC has gone through several diffrent ownerships, rules, and even diffrent fight styles. In the begining it was truly Style VS Style. then came the fat tough man competiion. Now it is highly regulated with rules. It really isnt as real as it gets. If it was people would die. Its a sport that likes to think its real.
Ian
Remember the Ali fight with the Karate Kung Fu guy and one of my favorite of all Judo Gene as the Ref...What a deal...Maybe that was when we felt that if it was going to Japan it was phony.
But the fight between Douglas and Tyson was real, a real Boxing match and a clean fight, lots of action and big winner came home and Tyson could still hold his head high, he fought his heart out and I think that was when I really saw a tough man go down and still able to say I gave it my all...
Gary - that fight's a classic. It was supposed to be a work, which is why they had a professional wrestler as the referee (LaBell), but parts of it kind of turned real.
Overall, watching Inoki on his back with no way to take Ali down is hard to watch for more than a few minutes though.
And like all professional wrestling matches, the rules are unclear and the referee is always in the middle of things.
Joe thanks for the link. I enjoyed it. Good point about Gene LeBell and wrestling, his red trousers were real LOL
In his book about his life "The Godfather of Grappling" Gene LeBell talks about his statement to Ali when he wanted to quit. Page 202 "Don't leave, I bet on you" funny.
Gary
This message has been edited by BGile from IP address 74.37.135.197 on May 16, 2008 11:44 AM This message has been edited by BGile from IP address 74.37.135.197 on May 16, 2008 11:42 AM
Ian - I think you should take the time to read what I write as opposed to getting worked up over things I never said or implied. I'll do my best to explain again my position and maybe you can explain yours.
Let's start with how I perceive your position: Every fight Bart Vale did was real. Every fight Ken Shamrock did was real. Every fight Josh Barnett did was real.
Here's Mine: Some of Ken Shamrock's fights were real, some "works" (Shamrocks position, not mine). Some of Josh Barnett's fights were real, some "works" (Barnett's position, not mine). Some of Bart Vale's fights were real, some "works" (obviously mine, the guys at Sherdog, and mixedmartialarts.com as their records show).
Now the discussion:
I can't figure out why you feel I think MMA didn't exist before UFC 1.
Why do you think my logic would imply all of Josh Barnett, Bas Rutten, Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, or Bart Vale's fights are fixed? I've never said that, and have actually said that many of their fights were real.
What I and others have said, which seems to get everyone here upset, is that many of the matches these individuals were in were "works". Highlights of these "worked" matches were posted in the Blackbelt highlight video. If you have convinced yourself that the Ken Shamrock fight is real, then I don't know what to say to you other than I assume you thought WWF was real up until the time Vince McMahon admitted it was "sports entertainment" to avoid state athletic commission regulation.
The online, or "official" ranking sites do not list fights that are considered professional wrestling fights. So when a fighter fights for a "professional wrestling" organization it is considered a "work" and when he fights for a "real" organization it is considered real.
You also made a point of posting Josh Barnett's record. The relevance I can't figure out, even after reading your post multiple times.
While some others have said they participated in "works" (Shamrock), Vale has said that he did not participate in those matches. Just because others did or did not is of no value when Vale is a personal friend to people here, and has stated that he did not do those.
You are asking people to disbelieve the word of their friend because you say others have said they participated in fixed matches.
Ted Sumner (Premier Login sjkenpo) Forum Owner 75.62.183.86
Just a thought
May 21 2008, 1:08 PM
Just a thought, if one was handily defeated in a full contact match, then later went on to become a highly regarded champion, would it not suit their purpose to allow people to believe that the fight in which they were previously defeated had been a prearranged performance?
Ted - sure it would, but how about another thought:
If someone was handily defeated in multiple legitimate full contact matches against marginal opponents, would it not suit their purposes to portray earlier prearranged performances against a future famous fighter as real?
This is where this thread has found itself. One group wishes to think the UWF fights were real. Another believes they were not.
Joe,
Please don’t think that I spend my day getting upset at this. These are questions that come up every now and then. Punnisher is right. Most of us know Bart personally and feel he wouldn't lie to us. Let alone when I watch his fights I know they're real. Have you seen the entire Ken Shamrock VS Bart Vale fight or just the 30-second clip that floats around on the Internet. The match went well over 15min without breaks.
I don’t want to argue opinion with you. I feel that the records of sherdog and any other fight online website should be taken with a grain of salt. They didn't even exist for more than a decade until after these fights took place. Also who are the people researching these fights, many of them took place in the late 70's early 80’s. Were they there? Who did they get their info from? Records? Fighters? Promoters? The ceo of the organization. I doubt proper records were kept back then they were mainly interested in selling tickets. If you go to these websites and type in Yoshiaki Fujiwara there are no stats on him. I know you may think that might mean he only did worked matches but rember he started the organizatons that only did real fights .I think its not becasue his fights were fake they just happened 25+ years ago.
Just because it’s on the Internet doesn't make it true. You base your opinion on these websites, Interviews and your opinion on fighting. I base my opinion on people who were there (who I know and trust) and my experience in the martial arts. I’m sorry you disagree with me but questioning my intelligence and making fun of me won't change my opinion. I invite you to seek out a shootfighting school and train for a while and see if your opinion changes if not then I wish you luck in your future career in MMA
Ian
This message has been edited by kenpobarney210 from IP address 70.143.86.202 on May 16, 2008 4:41 PM This message has been edited by kenpobarney210 from IP address 70.143.86.202 on May 16, 2008 4:25 PM
Ian - Back in the early 1990 time frame videos of Bart's fights in Japan made the rounds of the kenpo schools. So yes I've seen the complete footage of the Shamrock fight. I've also seen many other shootfighting match videos. And they do not look real.
Your statement "You base your opinion on these websites, Interviews and your opinion on fighting" is not accurate and comes off as dismissive of opposing viewpoints. I base my opinion on my training, experiences in and out of the ring, training with professional fighters, and the ability to analyze what I see. Websites are just that, sources. But when faced with multiple sources that agree (such as websites, CBS Sports, and individuals involved) in direct conflict with another set of individual's statements, an unbiased observer would have to wonder what the truth is. This is where we find ourselves.
I agree I haven't personally asked any of the principals involved about these fights, which might mean the world to some. However, I don't owe my livelihood or position in an organization to any of the individuals involved, which means I don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve what anyone says just because of who they are.
I would not have a problem training at a shootfighting school should the opportunity present itself. If you notice, I have said doing "worked" fights doesn't change the validity of the techniques or methods. For some reason everyone on this board seems to take it that way.
I wasn't trying to question your intelligence or make fun of you, but your comments about using my logic to show Josh Barnett isn't a real fighter came across as disingenuous.
I appologize if my statements put you on the deffensive. That was not my intention. We disagree on the issue and neither of us will really be able to convince the other that they are right. Im happy with where im at in my beliefs and training as im sure you are. No need to argue. If you hapen to find your self at the Kenpo super camp this summer check out Barts seminar you wont be disappointed.
Ian
