Anonymous (Login watcher24) from IP address 76.120.164.104
Not to be sarcastic but whats up with the "kenpo belly" I see on so many kenpo masters? Now I realize that its not easy to look slim & trim like we did when we were teenagers but - come on If I were going to teach the martial arts I would try to watch my diet at the very least. Not saying that all should run 20 miles a week! How can others respect our art if we don't keep our own bodies in subjection? The reason I bring up this topic was due to a statement made by someone on another forum some time ago. To be honest I cannot remember the name of the forum but remember someone asking if they would develop the "kenpo belly". From the way this person was talking I beleive it to be a genuine concern. How does one answer such a question? Lets face it - would anyone here join a weight watchers meeting led by someone much larger than themselves? Just curious as to others opinions.
This message has been edited by watcher24 from IP address 76.120.164.104 on Jul 16, 2008 5:12 AM
When I first walked into Tracy's my weight was 300lbs. I played football and a couple other sports. Is that HEAVY YES! I never sat on my ass for long periods of time so why have I always had a "kenpo belly"? I could give excuses but I do not believe in excuses.
My honest answer is through my intense training with Tracy's my weight dropped to 220 - 240lbs. my height is 5'11". My body type, a friend stated once was like a caveman, gorilla blend, in other word I have a thick body. Regarding the notion of anybody just studying with body beautiful types is just plain bullshit. When one obtains a teacher you are there to learn not to judge the shape or beauty of the teacher. The thought that ran through my mind on read this thread was, God thank you for providing me with great teachers not just shallow idol objects.
While it is certainly true that many with the kenpo belly could be in better shape and such . . .
It may also be true that kenpo lends itself well to that body type.
You don't have to have a particular physique in order to get it to work.
Some more athletic styles, like wu shu (good Eagle Claw Kung Fu is beautiful, but it is definitely not for my body type!) almost require a smaller, more wirey frame.
But kenpo is effective for both the small, athletic types as well as the big locamotive builds.
Also, it is more difficult to maintain the 20-year-old physique, when you're over 40.
Good to be in shape, but it is nice to know that the stuff works regardless.
Many seem to forget the importance of the big belly in the culture, whence came the arts.
Big is realtive, the natural areas to carry weight is in the buttocks and belly or so I have read regarding the evolution of man and woman. Look at the figurines out of Mesopotamia and other locations of antiquity.
...until I had the fortunate pleasure of working with one of the Masters that you are most likely referring to and realized that, despite my 20-year-old-physique and their "kenpo belly", they would most certainly be more than capable of completely annihilating my well-physiqued-ass.
The Master that I had the pleasure of working with was faster than I was, stronger than I was, possessed more control than I had, and, this should go without saying, they possessed far greater knowledge which was what truly made them so much more "dangerous". (I would have said that greater knowledge was what truly gave them the upperhand but that sounds like it diminishes the other rather than compliment.) Believe it or not, the fact that I had the opportunity to work with someone who had a build that was "non-athletic" (define that however you wish) was what made me realize that size/build was not the determining factor in a physical confrontation.
As the pearl of wisdom suggests...do not judge a book by its cover.
To take this discussion in a different direction...I have not yet reached the age of thirty, although I am VERY close, but my physique is certainly NOT what it was even five years ago. Over the past four years I have gained nearly fifty pounds and my waist has increased from a 32 to a 36/38 depending upon the pant. I BLAME MARRIAGE! I have been married for three years and the year prior I was "courting" my wife, and this is when my physique went straight to hell. I could elaborate but will spare you the details.
I have put together a new workout regimen and have begun to execute it with a renewed spirit and vigor. My renewed spirit and vigor is not to live up to someone else's standard of what is acceptable, or required. It is due to my own standard. I KNOW what I am capable of and I KNOW that I am not, at this point in time, able to meet those standards.
Ted Sumner (Premier Login sjkenpo) Forum Owner 75.62.180.128
Re: whats with the kenpo belly
July 16 2008, 10:20 AM
As devoted Kenpo men age they tend to take on the physique of an old power lifter. Make no mistake, under the fat there is a great deal of well conditioned muscle. This increase in subcutaneous fat storage is due in part to the type of movements involved in the practice of this art, in part due to the slowing metabolism of the aging warrior and most importantly to the negligence to adjust the diet. As I near sixty years of age I have found that no amount of exercise in which I might engage is sufficient to burn the amount of calories that I consumed on a daily basis in my 20’s. The only solution is portion control. One simply must cut the size and frequency of the portions of food consumed on a daily basis in order to avoid the “kenpo belly”.
I find my self in agreement with you. Sir I am probably 15 years your junior & could only hope to be 1/100th as skilled as you. Further I am a pretty big guy but would think 2nd about going up against one of your caliber. I will probably never reach your skill level in my lifetime. The point is that I agree that you still move like bruce lee(you know what I mean) its just that as kenpo practioners should we be more cognicent of our health as well as our art?
God bless
This message has been edited by watcher24 from IP address 76.120.164.104 on Jul 16, 2008 6:37 PM
Ted Sumner (Premier Login sjkenpo) Forum Owner 75.62.180.128
Absolutely!
July 17 2008, 4:21 PM
“as kenpo practioners should we be more cognicent of our health as well as our art?”
Absolutely! My point was merely that many of these “kenpo bellied” practitioners are carrying excessive subcutaneous fat. That is, fat that is on top of muscle, in the case of many of these people, very well conditioned muscle. This as opposed to “intermuscular fat”, or fat this is deposited between the muscle fibers due to inactivity and excessive caloric intake.
Subcutaneous fat is very difficult to loose, especially after 40 years of age. Drastic reduction of food and alcohol intake is an absolutely essential component of the belly reduction process.
Perhaps I am misreading your statement...but are you saying that a drastic reduction of food coupled with alcohol intake is needed to lose subcutaneous fat? Please bear in mind...I am not offended by this statement but merely looking for clarification. Many would be fans of such a weight lose plan.
Ted Sumner (Premier Login sjkenpo) Forum Owner 68.165.3.68
Re: Alcohol Intake...
July 17 2008, 5:18 PM
That would be the most popular diet on planet Earth, but alas. In order to loose stubborn subcutaneous fat it is imperative that one reduce alcohol intake as well as food intake. A "diet" per se is not necessary, but portion control is essential. That coupled with one's regular training regimen and the fat will begin to come off. But it is tough as one ages.
Master summner for your thoughts. I hope that I did not offend anyone by starting this thread. Just did not know what to make of this "kenpo belly" comment I read on another forum. Wish I could remember where I came accross this topic. Oh well I value everyones input and now have some different points of view to ponder. By the way I am in no way an adonis myself(lol)Perhaps a balanced(sensible)diet with portion control & some excercise would benefit most folks just fine. Sounds easy but does take a level of commitment that can be a challenge. Can't help but think of a comment bruce lee made some time ago. He said that tech & skill were valuable but were also useless without the mechanisim to make it work.(paraphrased)You could drive the most powerful car in town,but if your tanks empty you ain't goin nowhere.
God bless
This message has been edited by watcher24 from IP address 76.120.164.104 on Jul 17, 2008 6:19 PM
Yes, I have found out that after fifty-five I feel now that I am almost sixty that I have more of ballast than I feel is necessary. So, I will have to change my diet as in perhaps those beers you like so much on more than a few occasions should be eliminated.
I got bad knees thanks to working out so hard in Tae Kwon Do and walking on cement floors for the last forty-four years has not helped either so aerobic type as in running is not so good. I will just have to force myself to get a Kata / Technique workout on a daily basis. Get a stationary bike and just do it. The Tai Chi Chuan workout, without the other physical workouts wasn’t too smart either.
Course as stated, there are some folks just built like that. Jerry Samuleson is the King pin in the greater Seattle area for a long time now. He has been rotund for along time. However, he is quick, deceptive and powerful and one of the more skilled and knowledgeable Black Belts in the area.
The last, which everyone teaching should realize is that in a busy school and if you work four or five hours teaching a day plus your day job, when are you going to have time for you. Some how along the line you got to do your parent, spouse thing also and if you don’t dedicate the proper time to that you won’t have the spouse and kids. I wish there was any easy answer or a successful program, one size fits all but it depends on the situation. It is also the energy, metabolism, age and gravity thing.
This message has been edited by B.B.Baxter from IP address 130.76.32.145 on Jul 16, 2008 10:31 AM
Its better to be Well Rounded then...well...Round!
July 16 2008, 10:29 AM
Heres my issue here, I think the Kenpo Belly is a Hinderance. There is absolutely no valid arguments that can be made that says its fine, or good, or better in any way shape or form.
I am not a slim swimsuit model, at 6'3" and 250 I can very well be accused of having Kenpo Belly as well.
I still do not delude myself into thinking that I am better off now then at my fight weight of 225.
The problem is that the art of Kenpo is perfectly able to be performed and performed well no matter the body type. That being said too focus solely on Kenpo and neglect other aspects of self defense including but not limited too Cardio, Strength, Speed, Perceptual Speed, Intelligence, etc. is detrimental to the persons overall well being, and their ability to defend themselves and others.
I person with a little less Kenpo ability, but alot more Speed, Strength, Cardio, etc will almost always beat the one with a bit more skill alone.
So the question is why would you neglect the rest and develop a kenpo belly?
I would imagine that life gets in the way for most people, and supporting a way of life becomes more important then being as well rounded as possible to protect life. The dangers in ones life are minimized based on lifestyle so kenpo becomes more of an artform, then a realistic lifesaving mechanism that requires them to be tip top shape.
Families, Hobbies, Entertainment, Eating, Sleeping, working, all takes time and priorities must be set. I think that everyone needs to establish a point of greatest return in their training, and focus at the time on the one aspect that will give them the highest return on investment of time. I think as alot of the seniors get older they get stuck in a cycle or a routine of training/teaching/taking shortcuts and do not think about what is most important for my life/body/health at this moment in time. I think if the did you would most likely see a few more Seniors taking time to lighten that Kenpo Belly a bit.
I seen a few Gung Fu men with a belly of different girth that includes Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Preying Mantis, Bok Mei etc. Tan tien is prized in the lower abdomen is it not?
Well, size hasn't always been a deterrant for fighting ability. There are some great Kung Fu men like Hung I Hsiang ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_I-Hsiang ) who were renouned for their fighting ability despite his girth. Same goes for one of his teachers Wang Shu Chin ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=vVg6De9Rk0Q ) And Let's not forget my favorite convex abdomened karateka Motobu. 1216339648.GIF I think that one does not need to be in that slender of form in order to be able to fight. As technique improves, so does effort. the more efficient one becomes, the less exertion is required and the fewer calories are burned.
This message has been edited by Danjo1 from IP address 4.232.72.220 on Jul 17, 2008 5:13 PM
Oh, don't get me started!!! I think the only good excuses for that belly are:
1 if you have a serious illness like a heart condition, cancer, HIV or thyroid disease
2 if you are suffering the effects of a permanent injury.
A "master" of anything is a person who believes in working very hard to be the best they can be. That belly sends the opposite message.
The fact that it's so rampant among kenpo masters that they actually CALL it the "kenpo belly" is embarrassing.
Maybe in 13 years, when I reach the age of 50, I will have some different view on the subject. If I do, I will be sure to curse at myself, get off my butt and get to work.
It has a lot to do with the inactivity as you get older. It has to do with the style...Look at Motobu and other big guys, who were bad news.
Yea it is not a good thing for sure, I don't have the perfect flat stomach of years gone by...but under some of that chubby is muscle. 35 inch waist was at one time, now it is over 40, but I still wear my trousers around the bb line, not under the gut, like you are probably talking about.
Kenpo and the belly seems to go together. Look at EPSr in his last couple of decades. Hard to see because of the gi...
Arnie the Gov now has one but he can drop it quick they say. The muscle mass is what counts... You don't want to start a flame war with a GM that looks like Al, I would say.
A little input for you, when I started my Kenpo training my instructor had a "kenpo belly". That person is Al Tracy! I never thought of him as being out of shape on the contrary he was fast and powerful and he did not give me any quarter of an excuse! Another Gung Fu man that had weight and was very physical was Sammy Hung. You may remember seeing him as Bruce Lee's opponent in the beginning of Enter the Dragon! He was very athletic indeed. My point is one cannot judge a person by his/her physical deminsions.
I doubt Sammy, while an incredible movie martial artist, is as fit as his movie stunts indicates.
I also think that something is to be said about someone who takes care of all aspects of the body when teaching a martial art. would you go rent a house that had an incredible floorplan, but one neighbor was a crack dealer, and the other ran dog fights out of his house?
I look at the complete picture, and feel sorry for those that zoom in to the extreme and focus on only a small portion. too many great talents leave this world early because they failed to take care of themselves.
I believe you are broad basing here! You are missing my point entirely...there are many physical types you distain then you pontificate the lean body is the only healthy body. Outside of pure disregard for diet and exercise anybody who is not lean and so on is a lesser person in Martial Art more specifically Kenpo Karate?! Sir, I do not agree on many counts but you have your own opinions. So be it!
Do you think that fat, and obesity are healthy in any circumstance? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Is there any way that having better cardiovascular ability can hurt you?
I have yet to see any medical or scientific study done that states that fat is healthy, or good in any way shape or form. I never said a fat person can not be a good Kenpoist, I actually stated the opposite, that Kenpo is an art that works for all body types. I simply stated that for pure self defense purposes being a great kenpoist alone is only a small piece of the overall self defense puzzle. Do you not agree with that?
Everything aside genetics plays an important role. If the pure fat person could control it do think they would not? Scientist et. al have been working on the genetic side for years with no solution. Above and beyond diet and exercise!
The comment about scientists working on a solution seems to tell me that its not good. People do not work on solutions for that which is good. Hey like I said I am not a small guy, I am simply saying that those that are fat, while they have the right to do whatever they want, have to at least realize they are not doing themselves, their art, their students, or anyone around them the justice they deserve. Obviously there are people with medical issues that are so overwhelming that they cannot at this time be solved, but its still a detriment to their self defense, rather then just another state of being equal too any other.
based on what you are stating anybody who doesn't match up to your hypothesis is a detriment to their martial art! You are missing a lot my newer naive martial artist. That being said you better dump most of your martial art endeavors because of the contamination of fat and aging bodies. Folks like yourself make me chuckle and I appreciate your jack of all MA and master of none. Good day!
apparantly you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
I never said someone who is fat can not teach, train or be great at kenpo.
Two other times I stated that Kenpo specifically works for all body types.
I am sorry but I find it funny that you think because I think Obesity is a detriment to the martial artist that I am Naive. That is really a hard one to rationalize there. You dont know me, so I would appreciate you holding off on the jack of all Master of none rhetoric, It has nothing to do with the conversation, and until you step on the mats with me, or watch me on the mats all you are doing is tossing insults, trying to belittle, without actually arguing your point.
I never said a fat man can not be a good kenpoist.
I guess we would have to agree on what ingredients makes the best mix for a martial artist and go from there. Apparantly you are arguing that obesity is just fine and has no effect whatsoever on a persons ability to defend themselves of their family or friends. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are arguing, and I am sorry I have to say I can not buy into that argument.
BTW I have not once belittled you in this debate we started, I never disparaged or questioned you about your training, simply because it has nothing to do with the argument. I will be the firs tone to say I am wrong if you can tell me how obesity helps a martial artist.
Thanks in advance.
Obesity is not good OK! Do not challenge me because you cannot understand my meaning OK. All I am saying is there are many reasons why people have size. You have a problem with that NOT ME! You want to challenge my competence COOL! I never back down from a challenge BRO! I do not care about your background, 15 years, I have 42 years of experience and I am proud to lay it on the line. WTF are you to give me this kind of B.S.?
I think you are reading alot more into these posts then is there... I never made any statement challenging your competance, ability, or challenging you to a fight or skill match. Where did that come from?
I would be all for sharing mat time with anyone, but I never stated anything that I can see even comes close to a threatening or challenging comment.
as far as your last comment
"WTF are you to give me this kind of B.S.?"
that tells me that you think you are above being questioned, I thought one of the main goals of a Kenpo instructor was to get their students to question why they do anything.
I am a Human Being, and was born equal to any other human being on this planet, since you are not my Parent, My Boss, Or someone I have given my allegiance too, I do not see why I should not have the right to debate anything in a friendly manner with anyone else. Do you think you are a better human being then I am? because thats the impression that gives. Sorry you have gotten so irritated over this debate. I would imagine that its personal for you, and as such you are getting defensive and going on the attack against me. I am telling you right now I have not directed any comments towards or about you, I am stating my comments in general. I already stated I would declare my wrongness, if someone posts something that changes my mind. I also stated I am overweight /shrug I dont know what else I can do besides betray my own opinions to make any less personal.
Don't want to derail the thread, but wanted to address this statement: "I have yet to see any medical or scientific study done that states that fat is healthy, or good in any way shape or form."
"Not that the CDC results are an invitation to throw caution to the winds and take cream with everything. The scientists are careful to stress that the benefits they are describing are limited to those people who are merely overweight – which generally means being no more than 30 pounds heavier than is recommended for your height – and certainly do not carry over to those who fall into the category of obese."
"Obesity has been declared one of the main threats to health in the US, including among children. Those considered obese, with a body mass index (BMI) of more than 30, continue to run a higher risk of death, the study says, from a variety of ailments, including numerous cancers and heart disease. It said that being underweight increases the risk of ailments not including heart disease or cancer."
"Determining desirable body weight:
If the tables are not available, a simple way to determine desirable body weight is as follows:
Women: 100 pounds of body weight for the first 5 feet of height, 5 pounds for each additional inch.
Men: 106 pounds of body weight for the first 5 feet of height, 6 pounds for each additional inch.
Add 10% for a large frame size, and subtract 10% for a small frame size. "
So lets do some math..
at 6'3" I should be at 106+72=178+10%=196+30=226 Funny how my earlier post stated that I was over and was much better at my fighting weight of 225.... that seems pretty right on the money. at 225 I have absolutely zero kenpo belly either..
Now when people refer to kenpo belly they are not refering to anyone who can possibly fit in the numbers they are talking about in the study, so interesting study though it is, It still does not back up a claim that its ok to be obese. It even contradicts that with the second quote I listed.
Your statement: "I have yet to see any medical or scientific study done that states that fat is healthy, or good in any way shape or form."
My contribution: A scientific study that states that fat is healthy or good in some shape or form.
I'm indifferent to how you parse it, and frankly to this whole topic. Just thought I'd pass along the article since you noted you'd never seen this particular information.
Thanks.
you are right.
I had not until that point seen any article, and that did indeed to a certain degree state that a level of fat was fine, or beneficial.
I appreciate the time to post that article.
I have thought for years though that the official weight lists were fairly ridiculous, if nothing else this goes to prove that is correct.
I agree that the official weight lists are ridiculous. There was a time, as an adult, that I actually weighed 145 like they say I should. I tested for 1st black at 151 and barely had the energy to finish the test. For 2nd black, one year later, I weighed in at 165, was more powerful, more explosive, stronger, and had quicker recovery. But, 165 is 20 pounds overweight for me, "officially."
Also . . . there is a difference between B.M.I. and %Body-Fat. Some body-fat is normal, but also remember that muscle-mass is denser & heavier than fat; and the B.M.I. is based on body-weight, not amount of body-fat. Over-weight and healthy-weight may not necessarily be the same thing. Plus, one can be strong & effective athletically, and still have a poor lifestyle . . . Babe Ruth, for example. Leading a healthy lifestyle seems to be paramount.
I disagree with healthy life style being paramont, genes are a major factor and the medical community has done a terrific job.
I know of some that are in the same gene pool that are still around in their 80's and 90's and have not,none,nada, respect for healthy eating habits, they are happy people though, as long as they are controling and being meaner, than anyone I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
LOL, Booze is their main stay, that and fat...I am astonished actually they have a total disregard for sensible living. When one goes the other will follow shortly I would think...
OK . . . let me restate that . . . a 'reasonable' lifestyle . . . how's that(?). I'm no saint, nor monk; but I've discovered that if on eats a well-rounded diet, doesn't over-eat (constantly), doesn't drink like a fish, does fitness-training (in addition to MA training), and gets a reasonable amount of rest, one tends to stay healthier. That's 'my' point.
Sammo Hung had a great line on the short lived TV show, "Martial Law." After humiliating the PD Tactics Instructor, the black belt asked him, "How do you move like that when you are so out of shape?"
Sammo's reply, "I'm not out of shape. I'm just fat."
One of my instructors at the police academy (1977) was a Sgt and former marine. We ran everyday. He looked fat and out of shape but he could outrun all but a couple of us young trainees.
Plus, even back then, I recognized that he would be a good man to have on your team when things went sour.
What does kenpo mean to the practitioner in question?
It can be a self defense system, and can be as simple or as complex as you wish to make it. It can be a lifestyle, one which includes the 8 elements of kosho: war arts of punching and kicking, joint locking and striking, push pull, evasion, japanese yoga, nutrition and healing, philosophy/religion, and meditation. One could also pick and choose from these 8 elements.
I guess the question boils down to where the focus is.
As one evolves as a martial artist, one developes skill in economy of motiom (effort). That's why the ninja always pushed physical conditioning to suppliment their art . . . their very life could well depend on their physical conditioning, in order to escape. That's why I teach fitness training (independent of, but geared toward martial arts), as well.
