I at times go to Kenpo Karate . Com... I was there this morn looking up something/stuff and found this...

http://www.kenpokarate.com/parker_judo.html

This is really informative regarding the Judo that EPS did...
I have a feeling others may not agree, but that is ok! Good stuff...

Regards,
Gary

Interesting article that you linked, Gary.
I'm sure it will spark some responses.

Kevin Lamkin

You were right on.

I don't mind confrontation, I just wish they would read that website more. It really is not one that can be denied. There is no one that has done a better job regarding the history and backing it up! IMHO...

Take the idea of Kenpo and where it landed, Hawaii and then to the mainland.

Mitose is where it has to link back to. It is a no brainer...EPS did some good stuff, no doubt.

The photo is great, look at how young and small he looks compared to others...
He grew up over the years and wrote some great books...

Mitose, is given the credit...To discount that is only ignorance at its finest.

http://www.seinenkai.com/salute-mitose.html

Was Mitose my hero? No, but he is the one, I give credit to...
Many carried, the torch... Tracy, Juchnik also... Can't deny it...

Regards,
Gary

what all the hubbub is about to be honest.

My first thought when reading this is wow what alot of wasted energy trying to make a 50 year old point.
Then I realize the reason its not important to me is I never met Ed Parker. I never was able to see him move, or feel his power, or watch his ability to charm people and have people open up to him.

I realize I don't really care if Mills has his story right or wrong, and if the Tracy's have their stories right or wrong. It simply makes no difference to me. I know who I train with, I know good movement and good people when I see it. I already crosstrain in my art, so some old traditional values places on a pure or purified or whatever system already holds no value to me what so ever, since I see the value and benefits of what I do by training in multiple arts.

To be honest all this does is leave a negative opinion towards the Tracy's for what appears to be a vindictive nature. I have never gotten a trusthworthy feeling for Mills, so it just doesn't matter.... Interesting read? Sure. Important? Not anymore.

I already had read and come to my own conclusions that Ed Parker was ahead of his time, trained in multiple arts, used that knowledge from his own crosstraining to expand on his art as he taught it, and inspired people. He appears to myself after the fact and not ever knowing him as a person who was smart enough to take what he felt was important from any source and use it to help him pass on what he wanted to. The rest of this is only important to those that were there, or those that have a vested interest in the parties that were there..

One thing I've noticed as I've gotten older (I'm 54 at present) . . . one's memory tends to become more selective with age . . . therefore, documentation can be mighty handy at times.

Roger Lee (Lou.KY)

Does history bog you down or does it give you insights?

Its all a matter of perspective.

For example, the history of katas is important to me. If Ed Parker taught the katas in Utah then who did he learn them from? Did he create them on his own? Did he have the background to create credible katas at that stage in his life?

Or, did he bring in James Wing Woo in California, to help develop the first forms and to seek to incorporate a Chinese influence to his kenpo?

Does it matter? The answer is "yes" for me, and I think "yes" for any other kenpo practitioners who value kata.

Jim

So what exactly are you saying?
That you think the forms are worthless if Ed Parker had made them on his own when he was just beginning?
Or that James Wing Woo was more qualified so because he possibly made them they are better?

I think it comes down to having a mind to analyze the information in the form on its own accord, decide if its worthy of its place in our or your or whoevers system and go from there.

Personally I do not care if mickey mouse came up with the form as long as it is the most efficient teaching tool for passing that information on to the level of practitioner it is designed for.
I am interested in results, not tradition for traditions sake.

Seriously other then as a side note for future practitioners what difference does it make if the form was created in 54 of 04, by Ed Parker Sr. or James Wing Woo or anyone else?

If I found a form that taught the beginning lessons more efficiently then this I would use it and discard the old.

I understand people want to hash out arguments 50 years in the making, but the true value that the correct answer has on the current situation is close to nothing.
I do not think the comment of the answer being yes for any other kenpo practitioner that values kata is a correct assessment either. I value Kata, I know several variations of several of the forms, why they are varied, and what the differences mean. That's alot more important then whether Mills is correct or whether the Tracys are correct...seriously. I can understand having a conversation or debate about the efficiency of the movements, about possible upgrades, or changes to the material... but whether it was taught to someone in 54 or 56 or whether it was created 30 or 50 years ago??
I also think people vastly overrate the value of katas in todays atmosphere. Katas are pretty much a useful tool only when training partners are unavailable, or someone has a condition that prevents them from actively working with another person. If you want to debate that I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

I think the value of katas is vastly underrated in today's atmosphere.

I also think that who created those forms does not matter in terms of the usefulness of the forms.  However, history ought to be right.

If Parker created them and taught them in the 50s, then he was farther ahead of his time than I thought.

If he learned them from someone and was teaching them in the 50s, then he was more openminded than I thought.

If he learned them from Woo in the 60s, as most tend to say, then he was even more openminded, and valued the quality of his system over his own ego.

I did not think that I was being obtuse, but will elaborate.

Kata is a bible for some. For others they are useless and discarded. And, for some, they are worthwhile when identified appropriately as worthwhile.

The trick is to have the experience and judgement to properly gage a kata's value. Part of that comes from trying to get into the mind of the form's creator.

That trick can be assisted by having an understanding of the form's history.

Which is why history can be revealing for some.

Students of poetry use this type of study aid (when available) to better understand and analyze a poet's creative process.

Its a great tool when the historical information is available.

Jim

David,

Maybe this would be a good one to post over on Kenpo Net and see what some of the old timers... Like Mike Pick and Dave Hebler have as recollection???

I have to think, Tracy's have 3 of them remembering and only one of Mills Crenshaw...I really have no ax to grind, just would like some of the stories cleared up... Arguement, is good, as Plato, mentions...

Similar to the book I read about the election of 1800, author wanted to clear up a few of the misconceptions people have, about the time and era...

If Adams had his way, we would be "Kinging and Queening" it! That is ok in Chess, but not for a govenment...IMHO

RM could help clear up both issues...NOT!...
My opinion anyway. Would LT be able to clear it up? No...

1959 I was in the Corps, 17 years old...Some are doing it now, not many though...
Stories are good IMHO...EPS told lots of them.
One other thing, picture is really good, look how young EPS was. Dark haired and not Bleached...LOL

Regards,
Gary

I miss playing.
Have not found anyone worth playing in a long time.
Great game..my Grandfather taught me to play.

Kinging is checkers.
Queening is chess.

Ray that is true, but, Chess has both of them on the board...

Regards,
Gary

Is it a consistency that you blog something that is in error, then you agree but ignore your error, then state that you are still correct? Whether chess or kenpo history?

Queening is the promotion of a pawn to queen upon reaching the 8th rank. It is a chess term. It's a verb.

Kinging is the term used in Checkers to enable a checker to move forward and backward. It's a verb.

Although there is a Queen and a King in chess (nouns),there is absolutely no "kinging" in chess.

Ray,

You are correct.

If you want to be totally correct.

I'll say I should have mentioned it as King and Queen, regarding the idea of the type of Government Adams was going for. But I used the term Kinging and Queening, not perfect English, but it was not ment to be that, at the time I mentioned it.

I appreciate you clearing that up...English, proper and all.

"Nit picking" is similar and one of James Mitose's thoughts about many in the arts.

Kenpo history is anyones guess, it appears.
Hang in there Ray, I'll try to do the same.

Regards,
Gary

Blog is a term I have not really gotten into I have a feeling. Unless you consider this location, my webpage...I do post a lot here, true...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog

I try to reference rather than just my opinion, but I have given that at times for sure. Been wrong some will say...Some will agree. I have mentioned more watch and don't post...Those are the ones that are learning or not...

Why I like Wiki, it is a good location to start, then search more if you like.

I sometimes after posting, as I have done, feel, maybe it is time to stop.

But then comes some good answers from the other side that allows all to come to their own decisions based on the ones, that have a credence, right or wrong.

All have opinions and many things go askew, sort of like rumors that turn into fact...Hard to seperate them...

I have mentioned Plato and the idea of discussion, right or wrong, good or bad, it is a way I feel is important. Seems those who Blog do also, rave of the net now...

Regards,
Gary

I was discussing this with Will today, he mentioned this:
********
It doesn't matter when or by whom the forms were created. But it does matter when someone claims the forms were created in 1954, and that ends the argument when that and the supporting arguments are all proven to be false. And, because the claim is not credible, and it's an illusion to fashion the discussion on how important the forms are.

When Ed Parker was asked why forms were not given respect in competition, he answered, "No one pays to see the world's greatest shadow boxer."

However, there are those in American Kenpo who claim Ed Parker never learned Judo, or that he was a good boxer. (Does become acquainted with every art mean anything?) They don't want to know the truth, rather they prefer an illusion. They take something Ed Parker wrote decades after the fact and insist it is true, despite contradicting evidence. Are any of those facts important? I didn't think so when Ed Parker was alive. But after his death when those who had left him started their own organizations to give themselves rank and "superior knowledge" based on what he wrote, the question becomes one of whether it is important to know the truth.
*********

It is one mans thoughts, he was there and writes about it...I like history, why I have so many books on it, and other interesting issues.

Regards,
Gary

This thread has split into several tangents that appear at least to me only superficially related to the posting of Will Tracy's article. Because of my own personal history with some of the participants that have been mentioned, I am precluded from stating anything other than my own observations.

1. The purpose of Will's article, as I see it, is to state the events in regards to the early years of Kenpo and the creation and addition of form/kata. It also calls into account the credibility of Mr. Crenshaw and his previous statements on this forum. My views, based on the evidence presented by Will's article and my own personal knowledge are in favor of Will and will remain so unless, of course, Mr. Crenshaw is able to substantiate his claims and position with evidence to the contrary. I eagerly await for his response to satisfy my own personal curiosity.

2. This has also evolved to a discussion about the usefulness or value of form/kata.
This should have a thread of its own.

3. There is the question as to whether Mr. Woo taught EP forms. The answer is obvious of course unless The Tiger and the Crane and Book Set fell off the back of a turnip truck.

Hi Michael,
I remember (maybe) you are still with JWW?
Are there others that have long time in grade at the location? If so could you talk to them and see what they remember? Not to start a stir just a casual Q & A...

Leilani Parker's Memories of Ed Parker page 36 where Dr. Gyii states, "He taught me the TIGER FORM....

We all have read quite a bit about Professor Chow, he did not use forms???

So at that time there were no other forms, right??? Was EPS creating them?Did he have the vision to lay the foundation for the forms as they are today??? Or did he borrow what Emperado was building on?

Original Kenpo, now Traditional AK, very different... But Mitose had forms, were they borrowed?

EPS had to have a plan??? I think like most, it is a dream and finally he got his, and wrote the books in the last decade of his life and now it is laid in concrete... He never felt at first all had to mimic, similar to others that are Chow folks, they talk about creating...Always creating...

The art is not the Constitution of US never to be changed without a SCOTUS ruling ...

Where Kajukenbo now has a board of directors to guide the art, EPS, had EPS...

Regards,
Gary

Your views are well expressed and I concur as we have the same understanding.

I like and respect Mills Crenshaw and I look forward to Mr. Crenshaw's response. It would be interesting if both views are somehow correct. That Parker had some ideas early on and then those ideas were fleshed out and modified in California.

I think that it does matter "when and by whom" a kata was created.

Here's an example that is based upon my own reasons for practicing forms.

I believe that forms should be worthwhile and correct.

I no longer practice the Tracy version of Long 6. It is a weapons defense form that history shows was developed (not by Mr Parker) to be a competition kata.

Many Tracy practitioners like Long 6 and have won with it. In that regard it has served its creator's purpose.

But, my goals are different and I can not practice a form that teaches and reinforces the idea of stepping back on a pistol threat, or stepping to 12:00 for a low knife thrust, etc. I teach my students to visualize the attack so that their responses can be tactically correct. Why would I have them practice something that contradicts that training philosophy?

The techinques are not taught that way so they should not be done that way in the form. The common reasoning is the line that its just the "kata version".

The history of the kata and its creator's purpose are important because I do not believe in discarding techniques or forms. If I do so without thoroughly understanding the technique or form then I may be discarding useful information. In other words, understanding the history of the form may help me to make the right decision based upon my needs.

Jim

Hi Jim,
I think GM Ray would go along with what you are mentioning, we were both at the Seminar where he talked about forms and doing them exactly like they were done years ago, and trying to keep them pure. Not changing all the time. That way you can see how they changed and evolved!

You read a book about Okinawan Kempo, Shorin Ryu or Te, they will tell you, such and such made this one, got this one from, whats his name etc...

Why the confusion with the original kata's that was/were in Kaju. (MHO) Called them the same as they did in Okinawa, but they were different. So then they were changed to the name where they were designed or formed...

Much has been borrowed, not much is original if you have books that are from different, centuries etc.. France mentions, Old Ben, stole a few ideas while over there...Pray tell

In a small area like Okinawa it was hard to claim original if you copied...


Regards

Unfortunately, some forms are too flashy and are for aesthetic purposes. This started in the 1960’s in my area. It is great to demonstrate your athletic ability but really I feel the intent is self defense with the only meaningful difference would be civilian self defense versus military self defense. I started to lean toward the non sport in the 1970’s and I was influenced by my Kajukenbo instructor Joe Clarke who got disillusioned with the tournament scene early 1973 and just practiced what was practical and to the point. Joe was from the Ramos Method so was different than the mainline “Original” Kajukenbo that was practiced in Hawaii especially the forms. I did like the way the forms were designed with some questionable generic movements that can have several applications.

Well, Gary B, leave it to you in your deluded state of age induced senility to bring up a subject that has been hashed, rehashed, and made into soup yet again....

Is it because you've been dismissed by all the American Kenpo forums because your rants make little to no sense and you've gotten your feelings hurt? The articles that you keep referring to in a feeble attempt at discrediting the memory of SGM Parker, Mills Crenshaw, and anyone else that practices Ed Parker's American Kenpo have been brought up so many times it's amazing you are still touting them as gospel.

Ed Parker is directly responsible for Kenpo being here in the US. Period. The Tracy's trained UNDER SGM Ed Parker, Period. The one thing that can't be disputed is that EPAK practitioners are just as passionate and just as lethal as any kenpo practitioners, including Tracy kenpo folks.

The where, when, how, and whom questions of the forms, as we call them in American Kenpo, have little relevance when you are staring down the barrell of a pistol or facing the glint of a piece of steel at kill-shot range.

You can either use the kenpo you have learned to defend yourself or you can't. Or, in Bgile's case, you spend your dwindling energy on trying to discredit others so as to lend creedance to your own insignifigant ramblings.

OFFER NO MERCY, EXPECT NO MERCY

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

Gary,
I just saw it at a location that I go to. I did not write it.

I don't rave, that is up to you and your bully ways, for a very long time.

Glad to see you back talking your usual smack.

Thanks for the post.

Edit:
I went to the page again this morning...Few minutes ago. Saw the additional quote that has been put up... I have a feeling it is because of your outburst, or not...

http://www.kenpokarate.com/parker_judo.html

Quote "You shall know the truth, and the truth will make you mad."*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley

Regards,
Gary

Gary,

While researching the quote I posted, came across another by him. Felt it was a good one to put up for you to read. Might explain some of the reasons I post truth, as I see it...Books and Web helps at times...

******
On truth: "Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth. By simply not mentioning certain subjects... totalitarian propagandists have influenced opinion much more effectively than they could have by the most eloquent denunciations."

I thought it fit...

Not to worry, I can understand your anger. Hard to face the truth sometimes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

***All members of society are conditioned in childhood to hold the values that the World State idealizes***

The above mention could easily be applied to Kenpo, as misconstrued over the years...

This is a Tracy Board!!! Hmmm Does not mean I won't discuss it at other locations, if you like!

Regards,
Gary

Gary I’ve been trying to remember the name of the young BYU Judoka who tried to teach me the basics of judo . I couldn't remember Howard Shirtleff's last name... the picture brought it back...thank you. I never saw the Judo team practice. On a few occasions “Howie” tried to teach me some mechanics but I didn’t have the time to devote to the gentle art. Ed Parker did NOT intermingle Kenpo and judo. I find it interesting that in the attached article there is a picture of the Judo Club above which there is a picture of Ed Parker's first Kenpo patch. Are we to imply that they were one and the same? No, that doesn't make sense, because there are a good number of Haoles on the Judo team. Is the fact that the Judo club was formed in 1955 supposed to lead us to the conclusion that Kenpo was not taught at BYU before that? It's a laughable implication ...lousy logic and deliberately misleading.

Why, you might ask, does Will Tracy try to manipulate history to prove a point of which he has no first hand knowledge? He wasn’t there. His history with Ed Parker doesn’t even begin until Ed moved to California. Even then, the little I’ve read of his tortured history seems to involve his attempts at tearing down the reputation of the man who gave him his start in the Martial Arts. Why? Tearing down Ed Parker doesn’t build Will Tracy Up...does it? But then, what do I know, I’m just a country boy.

For the record, there were two basket ball half time exhibitions, one in winter of 1954 and the more famous one at the UCLA game. What evidence can I offer?

FIRST, I was a green as grass freshman in 1954. The whole college experience was brand new to me. The Smith Field House and the crowd at the game was the biggest sporting event I had ever seen in my life. It made a huge impression. I was the youngest, the “little brother” of a group of guys who came from Norther California to attend BYU. There is NO WAY we would have forgone the basket ball home games our first year there. That demonstration absolutely blew us away!

SECOND, there were specific differences in the two demonstrations. Perhaps someone who was there will remember those differences: In the first game, when it came to the breaking portion of the demo Ed effortlessly broke the two boards held in place by two men...it looked almost too easy. At the UCLA game it was totally different. Ed hit the boards once and the sound of that “THWAK” rang through the field house and you could see people shudder. He hit them again...nothing but pain. Everyone watching felt the pain. The third time they broke...of course. Years later I asked about that and was counseled that...”if you make it look too easy there is no value to the demonstration.” Not long after that, breaking was largely discarded with the following bits of wisdom: 1.) ...when breaking is the featured part of a demonstration that’s all people tend to remember; and 2.)...boards and bricks don’t fight back.

THIRD, as to the statement in “Inside Elvis,” That book was written in my home in Lake Forest California. Ed lived in my home for thirty days where we worked together to meet the publisher’s deadline. The experiences were Ed’s. He would recount them to me, I would convert them into prose. I have stated previously that the reference to the first basketball exhibition got dropped in proofreading. My fault, mia culpa! It doesn’t change the facts. Will wasn’t there. He wasn’t at BYU in 1954 and he wasn’t at my home when “Inside Elvis was written; but that doesn’t stop him from distorting the facts. Why? I don’t think even Will knows.

Finally, When I opened the school across from Sears in 1958/ 1959, you have to ask yourself this question, would Ed Parker have looked the other way while an unqualified instructor operated a school in ins name? Would he have visited that school repeatedly and promoted a fraud? Would he have met there and allowed the IKKA to have been formed by a self promoted wannabe? Would he have waived his own rule that a Black Belt had to be 18 when he saw 16 year old Casey Clayton (whom I trained) perform and elevated him to be the youngest Black Belt in the history of the system?

I didn’t create a system so I could promote myself. I haven’t claimed rank I wasn’t awarded by the head of the system in which I was trained. I haven’t tried to destroy the reputation of the man I called teacher; and more importantly called, “friend.” I haven’t tried to rewrite history to build myself or my kin in the eyes of others. In fact, I consider the whole matter to be a monumental boor. Rhet Butler put it best,...”Frankly my dear, I don’t give a dam.”

One Man's Opinion
Mills Crenshaw

Mills,

I am glad you wrote, and said a few things.

I saw the new page, we had talked about Judo and EPS...So I posted it...I was not there either...

Old history is...Some have different views.

Similar, some things I remembered when at a Kajukenbo location. Others said no that is not true, then I read Carl Tottons Bio, in the Kenpo Continuum, contactd him and he verified some of my thoughts... Those who were saying different were not there at that time...Simple...

Take a person who started at age 5 and studied for 40 years, take another who started at the same age is older by 10 years and has been studing for 50 years. The time is a huge factor...I have talked about that several "times".

In some locations I have been at, if you were on different days or nights, things changed...

I am glad you don't really care...Some do though, and they were not there either...LOL

Posting web pages has been a thing I have done for a long time. To get other views/input, see what others think...

It is a good way to have some real hot arguements. Many just are happy killing the messenger...LOL

I do have a few questions, but not now...

Regards,
Gary

Gary, Both Ed Parker and his wife have written that Ed’s first public demonstration was in 1954. They were there! The fact that they confused the first exhibition with the UCLA game is quite understandable. The first game with UCLA was a big deal. No one even remembers who BYU played that night in December of 1954...but no one who was actually there can forget the explosive demonstration. Remember, Kenpo was not on TV at the time, there were not studios on every fourth block as they are now. And none of the almost 20,000 spectators at the game had ever witnessed anything like it. All of us, in that audience, were stunned by what we saw.
The fact that Ed and his team were invited back the next year for the UCLA game halftime show makes logical sense. The committee wanted the most spectacular halftime show they had ever witnessed for one of the most important games in the school’s history.

Ed Parker said it was 1954. His wife wrote it was 1954. Those of us who WERE THERE say it was 1954 (and can offer sound reasons for establishing that date); however, there are those who were NOT there who, for their own reasons, insist that they know better than the actual witnesses. They do so on the single point of confusion as to which opponent BYU played that night. Consider the source.

Mills you did cover one of my questions (thoughts)...I know you mentioned the assist for the book Elvis. I have it and read it, sad situation...

Looking back (hindsight) is 20-20... Sometimes, leaving out something will haunt you, it seems. Editing or writing is not my forte, but I have gotten into it of late...

Was not a real good English student...Duh...LOL

But I did real well, in giving verbal book reports, it saved my bacon more than one semester. Always have liked, reading books...Homer comes to mind and all the controversy about it, then came the finding of the location, Troy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann

Good one for me...

Then came the evolution of the dig and more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy

Small steps in time. But someone is always trying to discover right or wrong etc...

Regards,
Gary

about the truth behind a demo being in 54 or 55 and the Excavation of Troy.
That gave me a laugh to start the day Gary, Thanks for the extremely random connections you put together at times..LOL

Yep, Gary does like to follow people down the rabbit hole.

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

Dan,

This all started out at Martial Talk, and because I was there at a time when others were not... Different stories and different fights.

Then the gang mentality of, who is this upstart??? Then of course the banning...LOL

But I am still around Dan...

I understand Johnny Depp will be doing a new version of the "Mad Hatter"...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/06/22/johnny-depp-as-the-mad-hatter-plus-more-pics-from-tim-burton-s-new-version-of-alice-in-wonderland-115875-21462990/

Again thanks, for the special attention you have shown all these years. Did it help you get your rank? Give/get certain special projects to assist...

Been that way for a long time... Trouble with E-mail and asking questions...It has happened time and again... Can't wait to see what happens next...



Regards,
Gary

Mills,
Some have mentioned that they did not think Elvis should have been promoted to the ranks he received. He was good some mention, others felt it was promotion because of all the money he gave assisting EPS at times.

Hank Slomanski has been mentioned as a person EP was familiar with. Was there much talk about that, when and where? Many thought HS was killed in Viet Nam but he was not. There is a mention in one of Dan Inosanto books about it, (page 8 in The Filipino Martial Arts)... Not a correct statement, HS lived on...

Regards,
Gary

Dan Inosanto has always been, to the best of my knowledge, a man of integrity. Ed always spoke of him with respect. I do not know Hank Slomanski; but I would trust any comments made by Dan Inosanto.
mc

If you are wondering, why I am asking you about the connection with Hank Slomanski?

It is because of Elvis training with HS, given special consideration for his few weeks learning MA while around this person... I feel anyone who goes through very intense training regarding a certain MA, is qualified (mental) but can you imagine, he must have been handled with kid gloves IMHO...Kata would be his forte, I have to figure. Singer, actor and very dedicated, some personality disorders...But they are common...

But once learning the basics, all the rest is simply continuation process... Joe Lewis is a good example of that situation. His training in the Corps, and continuing it.

EPS mentions all that in his last book vol 5 II, about the importance of basic...

Belts have always been a huge problem in some organizations and one of the things the late A. Emperado did was to assure his organization did not fall into that problem. Money and belts been there for some time in America it seems.

You helped with the book Elvis??? There might have been some conversation about Elvis and HS...Or not???

Dan Inosanto made a mistake, statement is incorrect about HS he did not die in Nam... He went on to higher learning similar to others that have been in the arts. My post might have been confusing...I'll edit.

Poetry...

"The Jackals", two edged sword, cuts both ways... Good one Mills. Poetry is something the Japanese felt was the full circle for warrior types...

"The Lone Samurai" mentions how that was the way of Miyamoto Musashi...

Also mentions about training and learning by ones own desire, determination... Inspiration, writing about a friend, or loved one. It goes along with the ability to think on ones feet and having a special apptitude. It is all in the book I mentioned.

I have a feeling EPS fit that mold, well...

You being involved in fencing and knowing that part of MA, seems you had to have influenced EPS, (two way street thing) especially if he lived with you for sometime, wrote the Elvis book together... Must have been a hard time for EPS...

Some of my thoughts (rambles) about, relevance...

Regards,
Gary

The "times were not hard" at all for Ed Parker. Losing a close friend was hard, of course, but Ed stayed at my home to save travel time (from Pasadena to Lake Forest). He had a tight deadline for the book. That's why he asked for my help. We worked around the clock to get the manuscript to the publisher. Then we went on the book tour. That's when Ed took me to Graceland and met with Elvis' dad.

There were a lot of discussions about Elvis, only a small fraction of which made it into the book, but no mention of "HS" at the time...Red West, yes, "HS" no.

mc

I liked Red West, hind site is 20-20 and if you look at it he was one of a few, being honest, got fired for it...Guess it is my siding with a fellow Marine, Semper Fi!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_West

Regards,
Gary

Mills,

Gary has a history of taking people at their word who were never there nor have any connection to the things mentioned. He LOVES the idea of conspiracies and has a very tabloid mentality, and if someone offers to tell him the "Real Truth" then he soaks it up like a sponge and regurgitates it all over the internet. A couple of years ago he did this with regard to Kajukenbo history by listening to some clowns from the Karazenpo group who just kept feeding him yarns. none of what they said was true, but Gary didn't let that stop him for a minute. It wasn't until they stopped talking to Gary that he changed his mind about them adn decided that they were full of beans. Gary likes to stir things up and run back and forth tattling about what each one said to see what will happen. Trust me, if Will Tracy stopped talking to Gary, it wouldn't be long before Gary would then conclude that you were being truthful the entire time. He's done this with Bruce Juchnik, Mike Rash and now Will Tracy. Same old game. 

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

That is a shame you have come over here and said that, Dan. But we have had our tiffs. You being on the leading edge of it for years, and your hatchet man behind the scenes...There are many stories that I have discussed, true... Your version and mine are quite different. Of course, yours are right, and mine are wrong...LOL

You have run from Emperado . com for a reason, I am not sure??? I believe it is a political thing, someone branching out from the nest, typical stuff. Shame really for all the good years people put in then when they leave they are maligned...

You call yourself a "Libertarian" (I have to think that runs like blood if true), but you are just a very loyal gang member, to be truthful...

I am glad you did it though...

Thanks,

Regards,
Gary

Dan,

You should never use that line.

As far as conspiracy, not much has to be established, two folks commiting a misd. gets them a felony... Many do it daily, bookmaking comes to mind... Or making up stories that would malign someone, or a forum...

Maybe we could start with the Conspiracy between a few of you over on Bullshido. Be interesting, but not a real good topic, now. How soon we forget. LOL

Regards,
Gary

You mentioned the group as being a bunch of Clowns and not telling the truth.

Here is a page about Victor "Sonny" Gascon.

Your path to here and bringing up old history at other locations and arguements, would like some clairification???

http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/history.html

I thought this was pretty well established at the arguement on Bullshido, and your attack on the late, Dave Simmons, then the big cover up, occuring...Hmmmmmm

Many opinions and discussions we have had, still not sure the whole truth and nothing but the truth...That is a given...

But, I was there in North Hollywood, circa 60's...Were you or John B.? No.

Edit:
I do notice that Walter Godin has not been mentioned. I believe we did have a conversation about him, and why the two parted. But then trying to track that one down is interesting...Jason Groff, has been helpful with history also... He is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Hawaii and that time frame, having Uncle Franks ear like he does.

Regards,
Gary

What clarification are you talking about? Karazenpo was originally just Kajukenbo re-named due to issues that Gascon had with the Kaju folks. Since he wasn't very highly ranked, he brought his brother-in-law Godin out to teach (Godin was much more knowledgable than Gascon). The original patch had the kata kana that read Godin and Gascon as the founders. It only lasted for a couple of years before Godin left and Gascon didn't last much longer teaching "Karazenpo". Godin kept teaching his stuff, but Gascon retired from the martial arts for a couple of decades before being dragged out of obscurity by a Shaolin Kempo guy named Corrigan to go around and give out promotions to SKK guys that had left their instructors under the name of Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu. Gascon didn't remember any "Karazenpo" and since there really hadn't been much of a system in the first place, Gascon just said "It's all Karazenpo" meaning that the system that his former student George Pesare created (With additions from Cerio and Villari) would be relabeled Karazenpo by him so that he could make some money giving out rank. These days, Karazenpo is just a bunch of cross-ranked SKK guys for the most part. Gascon and Godin had a falling out when Gascon wanted sole credit for Karazenpo a few years ago. Godin basically said "He can have that F-ing Karazenpo!" [yes I know people who were standing there when this happened] and went his own way. Since Godin had been teaching Hawaiian Kempo to the likes of Martin Buel, Eugene Sedeno and John Hacklman, he figured that he didn't need to take credit for all the cross-rankers that were now ostensibly under Gascon. Everyone knows who Walter Godin was and the tough reputation of his students. The only person of note that was ever trained by Gascon was George Pesare [until he promoted Chris Geary years later to his everlasting infamy] and Pesare only trained with him for a couple of months to the rank of purple belt before he went to the East Coast to eventually form what would become SKK. Pesare got black belts in Judo and TKD and formed his art himself. This caused a pretty big falling out with Gascon later on when he essentially took a bunch of Pesare's guys under him and promoted them and then tried to claim himself as the founder of SKK etc. Not cool IMO. Pesare always credited Gascon for his start in the martial arts, but Pesare's Kempo was of his own devising (he only had 10 combinations and four forms when he left Gascon in 1961 and most of those he dropped in favor of ones he made up himself), and not Gascon's.

So there you have it.  Now, I know you were "there" back in the 60's. You told us that years ago. However, you also admitted that you were only in Leoning's studio for a few weeks and that you were not even taught by him, but rather one of his colored belts. I've never seen how that makes you an expert on all things Leoning and Gascon. I can't begin to tell you the number of students that only train with us for a few weeks and we never see them again. However, the way things seem to go, I'm sure that 30 years from now one of them will come out of the shadows and claim to have been one of Prof. Bishop's students and act like he revealed all the hidden knowledge to him. There's got to be a Gary Brewer in every generation. This world would be a lot less interesting if there weren't.

As to Dave Simmons: I'm not taking your bait. He and I had issues when he was alive, and it's unseemly to get into that now that he's gone. He was never shy about giving his opinions to my posts, and it's un-gentlemanly to talk about someone if they're not here to answer for themselves. Whatever has been said, has been said. RIP. 

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

Dan, if it is you.

I do appreciate the answers. The way you answer and then put in other comments, is where we have had our problems. John posts similar, why I am not sure who is writing this... You or he also said, I was not in the Corps or LAPD...LOL...I was there, you can add what you want... 52 weeks in a year...LOL See it can be twisted both ways...

Bait?

Not bait, can not be talked about without that particular situation at Bullshido, you and others went there and ragged, I caught you, end of story... Might have been better if it did not happen, but it is all part of our history...

Thanks, for some of it, anyway...

Regards,
Gary

Gary, you're confused again I think. It was another fellow at Bullshido that questioned whether you were ever in the Marines due to the things you said on one of those threads. The LAPD thing was more about me insiutatiing that you got out after only 11 years due to a psych discharge. But that was more along the lines of an insult, not an actual belief.

The game of internet "Peek-a-Boo" that you play with regards to specifics of your training at Leoning's place is only one of the reasons that I tend to discount your connection to him. the other being that no one that was there when you claimed to have been remembers you at all. Which means that either you were barely there (and thus had no real insight ot the goings on there) or you weren't there at all. Either way, you've really tried to make a lot out of the connection to the Kajukenbo world of the 1960's.

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

Dan,

Actually I have not really tried to make a lot for me, the main thing I tried to make was that John Leoning was much higher ranked than John B. gave him credit for... And many know the truth... Simple...Then finally when the book by Amy Long came out, Carl Totton wrote in it and I contacted him...He knows and so do many others... There are some skeletons in there and problems it is true...

All the bad mouthing of Charles Fisher, but then his name finally appeared under John Leoning...Really interesting to be honest. Just really complicated situation and all the attacks on anyone who does not believe the Propaganda machine put out on Kajukenbo Cafe...That location won't tolerate what you have done, on many a site. But then you go to Bullshido or others and do it LOL... That situation I stumbled into was really something LOL...

I am not a rank seeker, never been a rank seeker, more in line with a truth seeker... By bad mouthing Sijo I irritated many... Sijo is gone, but all his legacy still remains, and I mean all of it!!!

Many know the truth, and for the life of me, I can not understand such devotion to a person like Sijo or EPS to be honest...So much bs...

The bottom line is again, I was there...Simple...You have added all the other BS...

You are a twister of words, you constantly insult and degrade and you are again attempting to besmirch...

Been that way for a long time...You don't see me do that as a rule. I just disagree and added a new flavor...We have disagreed about Mitose and that story, developed here between John B. and the idea that Mitose never left the Islands and John B. again being wrong...Disagreed about Chow and moving his burial location...He is still there, that whole thing was nothing but a huge rip off of students who were loyal to a certain group...What a shame.

Then off we have gone, you have followed me all over the net, with pictures and bad mouthing...Hmmm

Not sure where it will end to be honest Dan...Between you and John B. all the attempts to have me banned have been accepted by some and not by others...

Now you are here again, remember I mentioned you were never banned here and I tried to make sure that did not happen and you did not believe me...LOL

So here we are...Still. A real piece of work for sure...

Not for me Dan, never has been me or rank, just stories of my very full life.
We disagreed about Will, and training with a female and you really felt that was not what happened...

Why? You trained with one for quite some time before meeting John B.. His wife teachs?

Anyway...

Regards,
Gary

Just post a certificateof promotion.... any will do, even a yellow belt certificate of promotion. Just to shut people up already. Every single person on the net thinks your just some book read warrior.. Being book smart about history, and actually knowing what is going on are two different things. Post a picture of your diploma for any rank, and you will shut people up already.

Thanks David, but that is not me...

Think all I am is a book warrior? With my back ground LOL... Bonafide warrior, simple... Guess I have read to many Musashi books and don't need to worry about rank...
I post some at Emperado.com. They understand and know me...After all I met Dan Tyrrell for a duel, and we now, are Pupule amigos... That is good enough for me.

Funny one of my friends got in touch last night have not talked to him in some time. He contacted me over at Emperado.com... Good hearing from him...

Most who know me, are not confused at all... Dan won't go to the location to discuss this stuff, Hmmmm... JohnB checks in about the same time Dan has been posting here at the wee hour...Not sure if that is John or Dan but it is similar time frame, Hmmmm...



Regards,
Gary

You met Tyrell for a duel??? Yes I remember the "duel" well. I saw video of it in fact. There was no duel. Just a nervous old man who brought back up and thought about having Tyrell arrested for some weapon violation according to you. It was pretty impressive because this "duel" got you thrown off of bullshido faster than anyone had ever been thrown off of that forum. They were concerned that you would get seriously hurt if you kept challenging the wrong people. Tyrell felt sorry for you and decided not to press it because you reminded him of a crazy old grandfather. Others would have beat the hell out of you anyway just on general principle.

You are correct in saying that you are not the type to back up your stories with evidence. After all, why post a certificate or photo when you can continue to have people think you're full of crap?

As to my differing demeanor on various forums... Well, you're correct. The Cafe is home for us Kaju folk. Being a first degree black belt means that I do have an opinion that I express, but mostly I sit there and listen. Martial Talk and Martial Arts Planet are more open and free form. I joke and argue and it's all good fun as long as certain rules are followed. This forum and Kenponet are other people's homes. While I didn't always treat them that way, I've tried lately to keep that in mind while posting. If I have a disagreement about a topic related to a Tracy Kenpo issue here, or an EPAK issue at Kenponet, I stay out of it these days. Bullshido is completely irreverent and humor and insults are the mainstay at that site. Emperado.com I have my own issues with, as anyone that remembers my exchanges with Jason Groff on this forum a few weeks back can figure out. Saying that I act differently on different forums is about the same as saying that I act differently at church than I do at work and that I act differently at my mother's house than I do at a keg party at one of my biker friend's houses. The internet is still fairly new in the scheme of things and it has taken a while to develop a set of manners to accomodate it. But we try.

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

Danjo me boy, you're still my hero. Glad you haven't forgotten me either. I was starting to think your ol steel trap was getting a little rusty. Either that, or all those slaps upside the head with Daddy's shovel, side the trailer down yonder in the tool shed, were catching up with ya. Your Gerber baby pic on here still does ya justice. Keep smiling.

Someone still loves you.

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

Duel true. The book about "Samurai Strategies" covers my demeanor well...

I am glad Bullshido was watching over me, so well... I talked to Dan about it, he was very surprised you told me about it... I have a feeling that was not what he expected. I am someones, crazy old grandfather, LOL...
Well we both showed up did,nt we, more than I can say about others and various locations they have failed to show.
Dan thanks for the memories...

Gary

Am I close, regarding you and/or John B. being the same at that time of night??? Been going on like that for years, the two of you playing the little game...

Heck, I caught on to that back in the day prior to my demise at Martial Talk and others posting as different folks, so I did similar for some time, yes I got caught also, like you have...

Thanks for the fun again, Dan... No Mas, for me... To devious to be honest, from what I have observed...

Time to find out about Sonny Gas, Uncle Frank. Emil Bautista might help...

Connections are close in HI. Might be why you, or your latest teacher, did not go to the funeral? Now, that is interesting for sure...

Regards,
Gary

Hmmm... well, let's see...

I think that Ted or whoever is running this site could confirm that we have different IP addresses. But think what you like regarding that one.

Your comment regarding why we didn't go to Hawaii is laughable as well. Timing and plane fare are pretty much what decided it for me. John can speak for himself if he even cares about answering you. You can read the letter from Uncle Frank in the front of the second printing of John's book if you want to see how he's regarded by the island folk.

Either way, it's always fun to watch someone from the outside trying to guess what's going on on the inside.

Things aren't always what they seem. muwhahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

Dan Weston
1st Degree Black Belt
Emperado's Original Method Kajukenbo
Under Prof. John Bishop

That is good that you answered, glad you had a good laugh.
Happy fourth...Your ip and someone checking into Emperado.com...
Different location... Same time within several minutes...
Your answer is all I needed...The way and how...

Can't say I would blame you for not going. Price etc...
I have the 2nd edition and have read it, first also.

Thanks

Regards,
Gary