This text was something I wrote in an email to Brian Baxter. At his request, I post it again here for everyone...a little expanded.
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The damage inflicted by a hit is an impact phenomenon. It damages because too much kinetic energy (m*v2) has to be absorbed in too little time. The damage (the energy) is increased when you augment the mass (m) or the speed (v). That's why the dropping step (Baji Quan, bare knuckle boxing) generates so much energy, because you dramatically increase the mass. The corkscrew punch does more damage because it adds a rotational kinetic energy to the standard movement. However, most instructors believe it is power what hurts (F*v) and so they focus on developing strength (F), but strength does nothing. Strength is for grappling, not for hitting.
Perhaps intentionally taking your hand/leg back could reduce the time during which energy has to be absorbed, but (depending on technique) that also could reduce total energy by consuming some on the striking arm/leg, as needed to invert the direction of the movement.
You can't be wrong by going through the target. But by taking your punch back you could or could not waste energy.
Dear Gary,
I echo your comments on hitting soft targets. I will be "banging" my bag later today. I have a Century wave bag that sprung a leak. I replaced the inner portion with a rolled up carpet while retaiing the foam liner. The bag is awesome! You can hit it with hands, feet, sticks'cchucks, etc. and not worry about damaging the outside. Stree shoes are fine and work well for the Muy Thia type kicks.
It is not neccesary to calcify your knuckles and face years of nerve deadness and arthritis to learn how to punch effectively.
The left lead vertical punch is one of my favorites as well as straight right and left hands.
Tracy’s has a lot of techniques that have different hand configurations. You have to put on your thinking cap and figure out what kind of bag or object is needed for you to strike with the necessary weapons your body can provide. This is closed hands, opened hands, knees, elbows etc in a fast logical combination and that maybe only one shot because you do not have time.
One of the things I have come to a conclusion on, as far as the nerve manipulations go, is that there really is not that many areas to use that would be the most effective. The spots are where the nerve or nerves are accessible and the good ones to use are next to a bone and in between the muscles. That fact reduces the number down to the few not the many.
This message has been edited by B.B.Baxter from IP address 130.76.32.144 on Oct 26, 2009 8:03 AM
I will be hitting my speed bag today and using the standup also, I moved it, took the water out of it, it is in the house, light contact with sticks is what I have been doing, (wife away for a 12 day visit) when she gets back, it goes out into the garage again...Or not!
Keeps me mobile, I also take niacin during the work out...Hmmm
I really favor Choy Li Fut as a classical Kung-Fu system. Granted it is complex and not too many have mastered and know the entire system. It does originate from three complete systems that may be the reason for the complexity. Basically they have one good principle that really does not have too many exceptions. It is below the pubic bone it is using the legs as weapons, from pubic bone to collar bone closed hands, above the collar bone open hands. One of the sub styles of Choy Li Fut is military. The last thing you would risk is a busted fist punching the skull. You have to strike an appropriate bag to get the alignment of the skeleton to transfer the energy keeping the recoil to a minimum.
This message has been edited by B.B.Baxter from IP address 130.76.32.23 on Oct 26, 2009 3:40 AM
The military approach you mentioned out of Kung Fu is a good guidline to be sure!
However, much can be said for dropping a right or left hand on the jaw. I thumped my share of louts in my time and never hurt my hand. I prefer a backknuckle as a whip life attack to the face as it is quick and easy on the hands. The backnukle is highly underrated as an attack in my book as many do not know how to deliver effective power in the strike.
The military approach you mentioned out of Kung Fu is a good guidline to be sure!
However, much can be said for dropping a right or left hand on the jaw. I thumped my share of louts in my time and never hurt my hand. I prefer a backknuckle as a whip life attack to the face as it is quick and easy on the hands. The backnukle is highly underrated as an attack in my book as many do not know how to deliver effective power in the strike.
It goes back to correct end-point timing, and in the case of the back-knuckle, correct end-point. Most tend to begin their recoil at the impact surface with no penetration. All the components of power, speed, and precision may be there, but the mass (and therefore the power) of the strike is not delivered.
The problem typically is training. I have run across more than a few martial artists who, with great pride, deliver full speed and power backfists to people's faces/heads, recoiling either a millimeter from impact or actually striking, with a recoil done so quickly that the person being struck only feels a mild sting.
In real life, you do what you have trained to do. And my new favorite...
Dear Dave,
I do my bn's different now than I did 30 some years ago when I first learned my backfist.
I krav maga you start your backfist palm down in a high front hand guard position As you deliver the bn you combine the rotation of the fron hand to a palm's up position along with your trunk rotation. The "smack" you will make on a hanging bag and the feedback will convince you of the power contained therein.
I agree that many don't do it correctly due to poor training more than anything else. I like the bn because you can guage it's effectiveness to the situation. If you employ an eye strike in a finger flick situation you had better hope that the threat was real as you might face some legal ramifications.
I always hit the bag bare handed. Something interesting I have found is that a 45º fist is much more natural than any other option. There is a high risk of injuring the wrist with an horizontal punch (it tends to bend), and the vertical punch is not always easy to throw.
I agree with you about the correct hand postions for striking using a fist. The side hand sword or "karate chop" is still an excellent strike for use against the side of the neck and collar bone.
The same can be said of the throat area. I use the bag for practiing these strikes as well as my punches. The premier "fun time" occasion for me foot wise is practicing a Muy Thai roundhouse as I never was great about kicking with the ball of the foot. Backnuckles are also loads of fun on a bag and should be practiced to perfection along with the reverse spinning version of the technique.
The bag doesn't lie. When you "tag a bag" under full power you will know it by the reaction you will get how effective you strikes actually are.
I got into the habit of open hand flick to the target then close rotate the fist to forty-five, recoil to an outward forearm strike (Outward Block) with the other hand into a palm heel, with the fingers parallel to the ground, to strike or position to check in response to another maneuver by the assailant. The weapon penetrates and drags scraping the nerves. This is a Tai Chi Chuan concept and Western Boxing has some what the same whereby a moving limb, body, head can change directions to get out of the way or counter faster when moving even in a dime size space then being static from a stop to a go. This is that computer mind thing whereby an object coming in dead center from the crown of the forehead to pubic bone has a good percentage of success because the mind will go by color, shape, size, texture, and unfortunately distance is the last.
One of my instructors was a college teacher as his occupation. He was a teacher of art and has some education in psychology and one of the books recommended stated reasons for this observation. I cannot remember the book at the moment.
I train now with this principle in mind. Tai Chi Chuan does change things around and I can see now why some practitioners recommend learning hard and soft because they influence each other. I only chamber when the assailant is in a position that the other arm leg cannot be used.
This message has been edited by B.B.Baxter from IP address 130.76.32.16 on Oct 29, 2009 4:40 AM
Some have said the slapping in Kenpo is Kenpo specific, not true. Slapping ones-self might be, not sure really...
But articles I have read mention the open hand is quicker, also able to grab do other things that come natural when experienced. Notice how many matches in UFC stop after an eye poke!!! Hummm
Your hand positioning is similiar to what I do in a basic kenpo core form I call the Four Winds.
I've found that "transformation" is the route to take as we transition between blocks and strikes.
I try to maximize efficency as much as possible as the fluidity is much better in the form sequence.
If I remember correctly there is another concept whereby the open hand stretches the index finger and the thumb away from each other with the palm facing yourself. This is to get a faster response to getting the hand from a lower position to punch vertically. The hand rolls into the fist position just before the impact and penetration. It is the Seattle thing because of Bruce Lee teaching in the area. Where he got this I do not know. Bruce used a standard vertical fist from Wing Chun and some Northern style attributed. I prefer using this with the fist configured with the index finger on the heel of the hand and the thumb across that. There is also all the fingers on the heel of the hand with the thumb across the fingers. This feels lighter and faster but must be practiced quite a bit because old habits are hard to break. The lightness and speed is attributed to the fact that not as many muscles of the forearm are flexed. This is the way the Shinobi practitioners do their punches.
I'm going to work on this punch concept today on the bag. I agree, unfortunately, that old habbits are hard to break! The good thing is good habits are also hard to break.
I tlaked to a kenpo brother who lives about 11/2 hours away from me last night. We will be working
Qi Quong together in addition to doing our kenpo. He studied with a Dillman affiliate in the past before things got wacky with him. I'm looking forward to a whole new dimension in my kenpo practice. Let me know if you're ever in the Chicago or Madison area. I'd like to meet you in person.
This was originally used in that punch designed so that the back foot ends up on the ball of the foot with the toes facing the opposite direction of the fist. The body shifts so that the body falls toward the target. This is a skeletal freeze method. The front hand with the stretch rises up then circles in a small radius horizontally counter clockwise with the shoulder blades fanned out. Then the body shifts from a falling coiled positioned then the back foot springs pushes the body forward. At the moment of contact the shoulder blades squeeze together with the back arm swinging to behind to the back concentrating on the elbow first. The body shifts to be perpendicular to the target. Structurally the body is lined up from the right index knuckle to the back ball of the left foot. The only way to perfect this is on a bag. When you feel absolutely no recoil action reaction is when you got it. This is an all or nothing punch.
This message has been edited by B.B.Baxter from IP address 130.76.32.144 on Oct 29, 2009 3:52 AM
OK, when I read this, there were some things about it that did not seem right.I have put some thought into it, and finally have some time to try and put thought to paper.I apologize in advance for the length of my response. -------------------------------------------- ”The damage inflicted by a hit is an impact phenomenon. It damages because too much kinetic energy (m*v2) has to be absorbed in too little time.”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
First off, the equation is wrong.Kinetic Energy is one-half the mass of a point multiplied by the square of the velocity (1/2mv2).
Skipping ahead, you say:“However, most instructors believe it is power what hurts (F*v) and so they focus on developing strength (F), but strength does nothing. Strength is for grappling, not for hitting.”
Power is defined as the rate of energy conversion or work done over time.So when you say “it damages because too much K has to be absorbed in too little time” you are correct, but in saying that, you are defining power.
“The damage (the energy) is increased when you augment the mass (m) or the speed (v).”
I can agree with your concept to a point, but I would define “damage” as the work being done by the kinetic energy, or a result of power.
“That's why the dropping step (Baji Quan, bare knuckle boxing) generates so much energy, because you dramatically increase the mass.”
Agreed.Sounds like hyperweighting in the terminology I use.
“The corkscrew punch does more damage because it adds a rotational kinetic energy to the standard movement.”
Rotational kinetic energy requires angular velocity or rotational acceleration.However, the “work” or damage being done is on a linear vector that is perpendicular to the rotational axis of a corkscrew punch.Rotational acceleration or angular velocity would have no bearing on the power of the punch in the direction of the damage being inflicted.
“However, most instructors believe it is power what hurts (F*v) and so they focus on developing strength”
I would submit that they are correct, and would also submit that you agreed with it when you stated that damage is the result of too much kinetic energy being absorbed in too little time.
“but strength does nothing. Strength is for grappling, not for hitting.”
I must disagree.
”Perhaps intentionally taking your hand/leg back could reduce the time during which energy has to be absorbed, but (depending on technique) that also could reduce total energy by consuming some on the striking arm/leg, as needed to invert the direction of the movement.”
I’m going to have to disagree again.It appears that you are of the belief that if your strike is in contact with the opponent’s body for a longer period of time, the energy that is absorbed is absorbed over a longer period of time.Therefore, “snapping” a strike should give more power by reducing that time.
I am of the opinion that a properly executed thrust punch and a properly executed snap punch shall have the same effect on the body.Granted, on both punches, the variables cease to be constant (velocity starts to slow, acceleration goes negative, the target “gives” and may even begin to change position, etc.)The damage of either punch will occur based on the amount of power at first contact, and the increasingly less power as the strike continues to move into the target until the velocity=0.At that time, mathematically, the damage ceases.(Sure, you may rupture the guy’s spleen, and cause some ongoing physical damage, but the damage from the physics of the strike ceases when the motion ceases.Or, a better explanation, since kinetic energy is the energy of motion, no motion=no kinetic energy.
If a linear strike “snaps” back intentionally, it must move through the zero velocity in order to change direction, and will cease to “work” or affect damage at that point.
”You can't be wrong by going through the target.But by taking your punch back you could or could not waste energy.”
I am not sure what your conclusion is here.You are right, because “could or could not” sort of encompasses all the outcomes.
It appears, though, that the intent of your post was to state that a snap punch is as capable, if not more, of causing damage than a punch with follow through.In some cases, I agree.If you are of slight build, facing larger opponents, I believe this will be the case more often.However, I do believe, as I stated above, that a properly executed punch (or kick for that matter) should not differ in the effect it has on the opponent simply by virtue of how long it remains in contact, and that the difference lies in the execution, and I think that the execution (or the choice between snap or thrust) often partially dependent upon your own pre-judgement of your strikes effect on you.
In other words, if you try and follow through on a 300 lb guy, you may break your wrist because much of your kinetic energy ends up being absorbed by you.If you snap the punch on a little guy, you may bounce him across the room and the kinetic energy of your strike may be absorbed out in the room between you.
