Dear Reader of The Overvalwagen Forum!

Please allow me to present an article on an unknown Dutch gun factory:

H.I.H. and H.I.H. Siderius.
Dutch offshoots of Rheinmetall 1923-1934

It can be read at the following link:

http://www.overvalwagen.com/HIHSiderius.html

Kind regards,

A.F. Nuyt

Interesting article on HIH!
Here are two Dutch AT-guns called "HAIHA".

1) A 0,79 AT-MG on an ex-German M/1908 MG mount.


2) A 47-mm AT gun.

Assorted, from the net:
The earlier dual barrel type gun, 37mm/65mm:


The 47mm anti-tankgun from a Russian drawing:




The 75mm infantry howitzer on the same carriage (as sold to China):




Enjoy,
Nuyt

Could someone comment on the different units?

I think the pictures could be gathered into 3 groups:

1 4 pics show a demonstration of the troops in fieldcaps and whitish shirts.

2 1 pic shos the guns during a parade, horsedrawn

3 1 pic shows troops in action wearing British/US type steelhelmets.

Were these government, provincial etc?

Well, at least the Japanese captured this weapon in China marked as Siderius. Don't know how many, but it is proof it got beyond design/prototype stage...

The 75mm L13 infantry howitzer as delivered to China:

Does anyone know how the barrel changing operation was done?

I`ve read that Bofors and Vickers also made similar guns, does anyone have info/pictures of these guns?


mvh.

Tony E.

Hi Tony,

Tks for your reply.

Some of the info in Kosar says the barrels were locked into the (semi-automatic) breech with a "Bajonettverschluss". This goes for all three HIH Siderius models.

The Siderius catalogue says this:

"The piece has been constructed in such a way that according to the circumstancesn de 7,5cm or 4,7cm barrel can be mounted on the carriage with breech and breechmechanism. The barrel with its injector are only changed, which takes only 1/2 minute. The gun is divisable without the aid of tools into loads for the servants or into packsadle-loads, which takes only 5 minutes."

Here are some pics of the Bofors and Vickers twin barrel guns of the period:




From Kosar, Panserabwehrkanonen

Kind regards,
Nuyt

Reportedly sold as anti-tank guns, but how many and to whom? There were no less than four different mounts: machinegun, ship, tripod and wheeled carriage:




Was this simply Ehrhardt's design or was it modified by HIH in any way (apart from the mounts)?

it looked like this:

factory grounds Rotterdam:

I have sent you a photo of the WW1 2 cm Ehrhardt FlzK held in the Pattern Room, which looks very similar to the gun in your pictures.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

These pics from Waffen-Arsenal, Di 2-cm FLAK 30 und 38 by W. Fleischer show a slightlyt different looking gun:

From Kosar, Panzerabwehrkanonen:

Mr Leon Homburg posted this picture on the Dutchfleet forum in response.
It is no3 turret of the JM van Nassau gunboat, raised from the sea. It is now in kept at the Den Helder Naval base!
http://www.dutchfleet.net/download.php?id=3877
Thanks mr Homburg!
Enjoy,
Nuyt

From "Onze Strijdmacht ter zee"(De Jong/Cageling, Rdam, 1938) I took a copy and then scan of this pic, The quality is low, but it shows the Johan Maurits van Nassau gunboat from the starboard rear, giving a good view of the number 3 turret, the one that came in action at Kornwerderzand and the one that has been preserved:

From www.maritiemdigitaal.nl:
A painting of the ship in action in May 1940, showing the number 3 gun in highest elevation firing at the German positions (18 km away):

And a shot of the number 1 and 2 guns:

Enjoy,
Nuyt

This picture is from the walls of the Kazemattenmuseum Kornwerderzabd, showing the lifting of the 15cm gun from the seabed!

courtesy mr Kruys on Dutchfleet.net

posted by Mr Kruys on Dutchfleet.net







On the last pics the gun is being repaired. It is not clear what they are doing...

at the http://www.kazemattenmuseum.nl
Hope to take some more pics there soon!

Note the Rheinmetall style tube like carriage, full metal wheels (like in the HIH 75mm Infantry Howitzer). Only eight built, 75 more by AI/Hembrug, but without the semi-automatic breech as 5cm L50 No2.

Another weapon down. That's three survivors in Holland.

Nuyt

PS thanks Jos!

This picture is from "Blitzkrieg, Halte Kornwerderzand", a brandnew publication on the fighting at the fortress. It shows the Siderius 5cm gun outside its bunker during manouvres:

Mr Hans van der Klein of the Kazemattenmuseum sent me these two pictures:



Thank you Mr van der Klein!

From Verbeek's Kustversterkingen 1900-1940, page 311:

5cm L50 No1:

Armour shield: 4mm
Weight on carriage: 745 kilos
Weight on bunkermount: 512 kilos
Velocity: 800 meter/sec (armour and brisantgrenades)
Range: 2.500 metres
Armour penetration: 50mm at 1000 metres
Rate of fire: 20 rounds per minute

According to the same source all 8 guns were in use with the coastal artillery since 1935. Used at Den Oever and Kornwerderzand.

The 5cm L50 No 2 Hembrug /AI gun was especially ordered for the riverbunkers.

In 1940 both Den Oever and K'zand fortresses had 3 guns each of the Siderius bunkerguns. Where were the other two. Just have one lead: the Siderius 5cm L50 No1, production no 3 was removed from a bunker near Roermond in 1937, to be replaced by a brandnew 5cm L50 no2. Confusing, isn't it? So where was it and another brother in 1940? Still somewhere in th South?

From this site:
http://www.blitzkriegboek.nl/
A new book on K'zand!

This picture is from the Grebbeberg.nl page on the 4,7cm Boehlers. I think it is a 5cmL50 no1 or 2. Open to discussion!

Is it a Boehler's breech or not?

Last picture should be the no 2 later version, just like this one if you compare the handles (from Denkschrift ueber die Niederlaendischen Landesbefestigung):


This publication mentions the gun as the Bofors-Hembrug. Why? Who built these guns? Bofors had nothing to do with them. They were produced by the Artillerie Inrichtingen Hembrug because HIH Siderius had gone bust in 1934. AI Hembrug used subcontractors. They might have asked Wilton-Fijenoord for the barrels and breeches. Logical, because they took over the Siderius inventory. And they marked their guns: Wilton-Fijenoord-Bofors...I'll find out.

The book also gives a bit info on the gun. Penetration should be 20mm at a 1000 meters range. It is described as a "leistungsfaehig und gut brauchbares Geschuess". Range of the gun was 6000 meters and it could to 10-14 rounds a minute. Note this is a description of the 5cm L50 NO2, not the original HIH Siderius gun.

Finally was able to drive up there!

The "Siderius kanon" is proudly exhibited at Kazemat VI.

At close inspection I learned the following:

1. The gun is 5cm, not 47mm! It's approx. 2 meters 50cm long which is indeed L50.

2. The carriage is marked no 4, the shield is there and the lower shield as well. Both rest on the ground rather than sit fitted to the gun. Carriage and shield seem to be original HIH Siderius 5cm L50 No1 stuff. They must have belonged to gun production number 4 (out of 8).

3. Then the gun itself, breech and barrel. I already had my suspicions about the breechblock. They were confirmed. The gun is marked Kanon van 5 no 2, production no 105. It is not marked HIH Siderius. This is the later built "simplified" copy, produced by AI Hembrug or a subcontractor.
Still a unique product, but not the original HIH Siderius 5cm bunker gun!
The whole thing is a hybrid, a combination of two incomplete survivors perhaps?

4. If according to research at the National Archives just 75 of these No 2 type guns were built before 1940, how come this is number 105? How many more were built? It is marked 1937.

5. There are some nice drawings on the walls of the Kazemat showing the gun (the correct 5cm L50 No 1) as well as a drawing by AI Hembrug of a 5cm L42 anti-tank gun, dated 1930!

Mr Erdal, a member of the Rotterdam City Council invited me in september 2005 to write a small article on HIH's Turkish connections. The story appeared the other day in the first edition of Zaman Hollanda, a bilingual Turkish-Dutch monthly, http://www.zamanhollanda.nl/

The Turkish connections of HIH need to be investigated still and I hope to do so in the near future. In the article I added information on the Rotterdam built submarines for Turkey (in the 1920s).

The full text follows below (in Dutch):

Rotterdamse kanonnen en onderzeeboten in Turkse dienst

Na de Eerste Wereldoorlog legden de geallieerden aan de verliezer, Duitsland, een aantal beperkingen op. Via dit Verdrag van Versailles werd het Duitsland verboden een groot leger en veel oorlogsmaterieel te bezitten. Ook werd het niet toegestaan zaken als kanonnen, tanks en onderzeeboten te ontwikkelen. De Duitse oorlogsindustrie besloot toen om in een paar kleine landen als Nederland, Zweden en Zwitserland belangen te nemen in lokale bedrijven om zo door te gaan met ontwikkeling, productie en verkoop van oorlogsmaterieel.

Wat weinig Rotterdammers weten is dat het Duitse bedrijf Rheinmetall van 1923 tot 1934 op het terrein van de voormalige Scheepswerf Piet Smit Jr. participeerde in een kanonnenfabriek: de Hollandsche Industrie en Handelmaatschappij of H.I.H. (vanaf 1930 H.I.H. Siderius geheten). Dit bedrijf leverde geschut aan het Nederlandse leger en aan de Koninklijke Marine. Maar H.I.H. verkocht ook stukken aan nationalistisch China, Spanje en … Turkije!

In het Militaire Museum (Askeri Müzesi) van Istanboel zijn volgens experts een aantal voorbeelden van deze Rotterdamse kanonnen in Turkse dienst te vinden. In ieder geval heeft Turkije gebruik gemaakt van de kennis van H.I.H op het gebied van modernisering van Krupp en Rheinmetall geschut. Kanonnen van beide merken werden in grote getale gebruikt door de Turkse strijdkrachten voor de Tweede Wereldoorlog. Waarschijnlijk was zelfs een klein aantal Turkse technici tijdelijk werkzaam in de fabriek van H.I.H.: “gastarbeiders” in de jaren twintig!

Aan het eind van de jaren twintig werden bovendien op de werf Fijenoord (nog niet gefuseerd tot Wilton-Fijenoord) onder licentie van het Duitse bedrijf Krupp twee onderzeeboten gebouwd in opdracht van de Turkse marine. Het ontwerp was gemaakt door het “Ingenieurs-kantoor voor de Scheepvaart” uit Den Haag. Ook dit was een maatschappij die na de Eerste Wereldoorlog was opgericht door de Duitse defensie-industrie, dit maal door een gezamenlijke inspanning van drie Duitse scheepswerven. Doel was de know-how op het gebied van het bouwen van onderzeeboten te behouden en verder te ontwikkelen.

Beide boten, de Birindji Inönu en de Ikindji Inönu, werden zeer waarschijnlijk uitgerust met een door de H.I.H vervaardigd dekkanon en werden in 1928 door een gemengde Turks-Nederlands-Duitse bemanning naar Istanboel gevaren. Ze deden dienst in de Turkse marine tot na de Tweede Wereldoorlog.

Enkele jaren later werd een voor de Spaanse marine op een Spaanse werf in aanbouw zijnde onderzeeboot overgenomen door Turkije. De Spanjaarden zaten na een machtswisseling krap bij kas en zochten naar een koper. De boot, die was ontworpen door hetzelfde Ingenieurskantoor, werd naar Rotterdam gesleept om bij Fijenoord te worden afgebouwd. Ook deze onderzeeër, die de naam Gür kreeg, zou tot na de Tweede Wereldoorlog dienst doen in de Turkse marine.

Naar de geschiedenis van de H.I.H. en onder andere haar Turkse connecties wordt thans onderzoek gedaan. Iedereen die informatie heeft over H.I.H kanonnen in Turkse dienst wordt verzocht contact op te nemen met de schrijver van dit artikel, te bereiken via dit forum. Een inleidend (Engelstalig) artikel over H.I.H is te vinden op http://www.overvalwagen.com/HIHSiderius.html

Meer over de geschiedenis van de Turkse Fijenoord-onderzeeërs is te lezen op: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com (pagina “export”) en op http://www.turkishnavy.net (pagina “history of the Turkish submarines”). Op beide sites staan veel foto’s.

Two survive at the Istanbul Army Museum, nos 15 and 29, which means that there may have been at least 3 dozen pieces of this type.
Overall hybrid appearance with German WW1 type carriage, Vickers 18pdr shield and barrel with recoil, fitted with a HIH breechblock marked 1930.
Has this piece been rebarreled? Must be.
Note the front seats. This Vickers gun has been throughly Germanised!
Any comments welcome!

I suspect the guns of the two Fijenoord built Turkish submarines were HIH 7,5cms. I do not yet have any proof of this, but the guns still survive!

The Turkish/English book Cumhuriyet Donanmasi 1923-2005, The fleet of the Turkish Republic, the boats and guns are mentioned on page 44:

"..., their 7.5cm guns were initially displayed at the Turkish Submarine training Command at Golcuk and are currently displayed at the Turkish Fleet Command Museum of Naval Weaponry and Crafts."




One day we will know!

This submarine appears to be one of the two 1920s Fijenoord built boats for Turkey, the Number One and Number Two. We have no info on the type of gun used except the calibre: 7,5cm.
What type is it?
Krupp WW1: no, the breech of naval guns of this calibre would be vertical and not horizontal to the left as it appears to be on the pic. Also Krupp did not build new Naval weapons in this caliber after Versailles. And where would the Turks buy it? Illegally from Germany? From the Dutch? POssibly it was a Krupp landbased AA gun adapted for submarines by Fijenoord...
Bofors: they made Krupp copy naval weapons in the 1930s, but this is probably not Krupp neither copy. A new development? Possibly, it shares the breech with the late 1920s Bofors AA guns.
Rheinmetall: WW1 gun? They had some AA guns with leftleaning breech opening, but naval guns? And also these would not be legal in the 1920s unless acquired from a third party.
HIH Siderius: I have no references of them delivering submarine guns to Turkey, but they were selling to Turkey at this point and they were almost neighbours of Fijenoord in Rotterdam. Is this the HIH 7,5cm L40? Also sold to China and KNIL?

In 1934 the factory was shut down and material, orders and even personnel (though not the design dept., I think) was taken over by Wilton-Fijenoord. That shipyard had just teamed up with Bofors of Sweden and would be the prime source for Dutch navy guns for decades to come...

Read here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1127665400/Wilton-Fijenoord-Bofors

Thank you for the article, Mr Nuyt, most interesting!

If I may add a little more information, while the WW1 2cm Ehrhardt aircraft gun (an example of which survives in the Britiah Pattern Room) was the ancestor of the later Solothurn/Rheinmetall 20mm guns, there were some significant differences in the ammunition it fired.

The Ehrhardt fired 20x70RB cartridges which were very similar to those used by the contemporary Becker cannon, except that the case was slightly fatter. The Solothurn guns adopted a much more powerful 20x105B round, and later on an even more potent 20x138B cartridge - it was the latter which featured in German WW2 Flak and AFV guns. I am not quite sure exactly which cartridges went with which Solothurn guns, however.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

Thanks for your reply!
On this Spanish site there is talk of the Haiha 20mm being sold as an anti-tank cannon. This is accompanied by a drawing of a Rheinmetall 20mm cartridge as developed late in WW1 (too late to be used). Is this you Ehrhardt cartridge?
http://www.municion.org/20mm/20x135.htm
Kind regards,
Nuyt

...that was much smaller, with a case length (minus projectile) of only 70mm, whereas the one on that site measures 138mm.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

Five were built for the K XIV class submarines, another 10 built by Wilton-Fijenoord-Bofors after 1934, see: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1127665400/Wilton-Fijenoord-Bofors

Here's the lone survivor of the original 5 gun batch, at Overloon Museum:



Here are some guns still on the boats:
K XIV:

K XV:


K XVII:

K XVIII:

Enjoy,
Pics from www.dutchsubmarines.com, www.maritiemdigitaal and me.

8 were built for the Admiralen-class destroyers Banckert and Van Nes. Both ships were lost in the NEI in 1942, so we have no surviving guns. But, Banckert was salvaged by the Japanese and the armament was removed in Surabaya, so who knows there are still some of these guns somewhere on the planet....
Here's Banckert's No 2 gun (from www.maritiemdigitaal.nl):

Here's one of the guns during construction at the HIH Siderius facility on Piet Smit Shipyard in Rotterdam

More to come...

From the factory:



On board:

Note this is either Banckert or Van Nes in Den Helder. Also note the "shield" with folded canvas. This of course would only protect the guncrew against the elements...
On Van Nes:

Enjoy,
Nuyt

compare with the Bofors 12cm gun on the sisterships like this one on Evertsen:

Please allow me to make some corrections of my article from september 7th 2005.

I mentioned the use by the Dutch Navy of a HIH 5cm training gun, one of which was supposedly stationed at Kornwerderzand Fortress, antoher aupposedly came in action at Tjiater Pass on Java.

Indeed the Dutch Navy acquired a number (probably 8) of 5cm training guns for the two destroyers fitted with HIH 12cm guns. These training guns however were nothing more than gunbarrels that were inserted in the main guns during training exercises, thus firing much smaller and cheaper cartridges!

The 5cm Navy guns used in various Dutch defences were not these guns, but old Krupp semi-automatic guns from around 1900, that had been used on ships. Several were used at Den Oever and K'zand Fortresses. The same probably was true for the Tjiater gun. The HIH 5cm most likely was never sold.

Unfortunately I was "put on the wrong foot" by one source, which led me to misinterpret another.

Of course, this all makes the HIH gun history a little less heroic, but on the other hand, I have only just started. I know there will be some more interesting chapters to the history of the company!

Here's a picture of a Krupp semi-automatic 5cm No2, on show at the Amsterdam Shipping Museum:

Still looking for pictures of these on ships (two each on Gouden Leeuw and Prins van Oranje minelayers, one each on Banckert and Van Nes destroyers - all ships were lost in the NEI in 1942, but Banckert's guns may survive somewhere).
Here's a factory picture:

The number 8 (2, on the destroyers):

And the number 9 (4, on the minelayers):

Spot the little differences..

from www.maritiemdigitaal.nl

Or actually 78mm, (pictures courtesy Leland Ness):




Any comments welcome!

not really blue:

Improved, with sprung axle carriage and hard rubber tyres!
Sold to China?



This was an improved version of the HIH 105mm L22 howitzer:


This piece in turn was very similar to the Rheinmetall 105mm gun of WW1 (also produced by Krupp). It may have been a variant of this gun or based on a similar prototype:


Note the HIH 105s tested by the Dutch Army had a range of 9000 meters.

Any comments welcome!

There are several references stating that HIH and/or HIH Siderius produced 15cm guns.
One lead (newspaper in 1931) mentions the copying of a Krupp 15cm gun that was also in service with the Dutch Army. This could only have been the 15cm L17, acquired (through HIH?) in 1918/19 from German surplusses.
Another source mentions a 1932 order by the Spanish government for "15cm guns". But there is no trace of these in Spanish service.
So far, rounding up the usual suspects doen not bring us anywhere: China, Turkey, Spain? Who bought these guns and what type were they?

On the other hand we have seen a HIH advertisement, showing a picture of a Rheinmetall WW1 vintage 15cm gun, the Feldkanone 149mm L 42,9 M16:

The same picture illustrates the entry about this gun in Kosar, Artillerie in 20. Jahrhundert.

Clearly HIH was up to something with this fieldgun.

The Siderius catalogue of the period counts three main types of 15cm guns (not counting the naval type): the 15cm How L25 and L22 and the 15cm gun L42,5. According to Dr Arthur Voltz, the two howitzers show no relation to any known gun, except for the arrangement of the recoil system which foreshadows that of the sFH 18 (and its longer commercial version sold to China).

The 15cm L42,5 field gun however was definitely based on the wartime M16, with new split and box trail carriages:

It also features in a Soviet artillery encyclopedia of the time, so it must have been at least built as a prototype.
Who has seen these guns in service anywhere in the world?
Who has encountered any Kruppish or Rheinmetallish gun somewhere listed in the 1930s?

Check out the same 15 cm L42,5 gun on box trail mount or "Bocklafette" as offerd by Siderius in 1931:

The compare it with the Rheinmetall 15cm L43 (from: 50 Jahre Rheinmetall), but just forget about the track type wheels. It seems to be the same gun!

Kosar lists this Model 13 Krupp 15cm gun, as used by Spain.


Could it possibly be modified by HIH SIderius?
- it's not the usual 14 or 17 long barrel (kosar says 30 long, Spanish sources state 27);
- the shield is resembling HIH shields (though this is not a decisive argument of course);
- latest Spanish study say this type was acquired in the 1920s;
- same study says this was a good gun and some were kept in use until 1948 (not bad for a M13 model that had seen action during the Civil War - unless of course it was updated once)

Any comments welcome!

See also here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1124627638/Spanish+artillery+question

Well, the National Archives in The Hague reveal that the Dutch Army ordered a batch of 8 15cm L17 guns from HIH in 1930. These were copies of the Krupp original, ordered by the Dutch in 1917. Some small modifications were done on the carriage, which became slightly heavier (15kg) and during the process there were lenghty discussions between HIH and the Dutch Army/Ministry of War. Apparently, there was no breach of patents by HIH. Did they use the 15cm L17 (Rheinmetall made) barrels from the Krimpen gunshed?

Dutch Army in 1940 had 40 Krupp 15cm L17. Nos 33-40 were the HIH ones.

Survivors anybody?

Ignore those publications that state these guns were delivered to Holland as war reparations after WW1. Holland was not in that war.

More general info on the Krupp type 15cm L17 in Dutch service can be found on www.grebbeberg.nl, bibliotheek, Nederlandse bewapening

Other info of the gun in general:
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/sFH13.htm

during trials for motorised transport, possibly at the Piet Smit Yard?

of this howitzer:
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=photo&pid=8866

I think their are two mounts for Vickers 75mm aa guns on this picture: one in the far left in the back and the other one in the far right. Of the latter you can also see the two low lying counterweights sticking out.

To the left there is something that might just be a Landsverk armoured car turret.

Just my 2 cents.

I have a credible reference stating that Emil Mueller for a while worked at HIH/Siderius.
Mueller as far as I understand had become Director for R&D at Rheinmetall during WW1. If he was posted at HIH it would mean there was some serious designing going on in the The Hague office!
Who can tell us something more on Emil Mueller? Any info on him is welcome!

Kind regards,
Nuyt

There are no known pictures of the HIH and HIH Siderius factory. They operated from Piet Smit Jr Shipyard and Engineering in IJsselmonde district, Rotterdam.
Here is an aerial picture of 1923, at the beginning of the HIH story, that shows the Piet Smit premises well.
I think the building to the right matches with the pictures of the various guns inside the factory. The roof says "Yzer en staalgieterij", the front says PSmit Jr. Note the large Dutch flag. A lot of iron/steel lies waiting in front of this building.
The picture above showing the 2cm being pulled by some workmen is a further lead. Compare the layout of the railway tracks (a triangle) to the tracks on this picture! Nevertheless, the large flat building in the centre is interesting too. I wonder if this as well had anything to do with HIH...


Next a picture from March 1937. HIH is gone already, but the layout of Piet Smit Jr's yard is basically the same. The cranes to the left have expanded. The old Burgerhout Shipyard's buildings to the right made part of Piet Smit as well from 1932. Piet Smit Jr bought them in that year after Burgerhout's bankruptcy. Burgerhout had built the Admiralen-class destroyers in the 1920's.

Anyway, all is gone now and the area has been thoroughly redeveloped.
Note the high number of trams waiting to take the soccerfans home (or to the cafes downtown, across the bridge). Let's hope Feyenoord won. They still used to do in those days...


Both pics borrowed from Paul van de Laar's Stad van Formaat 2, a must for Rotterdammers!
Enjoy,
Nuyt

Not the most exciting weapon in the Siderius history, but the modification of the Krupp Field gun was one of their biggest orders.

The guns were mostly captured by the Germans in 1940.

On this site: http://aermacchi.ifrance.com/photoscopecannone75-27mod.06.html, dealing with the Italian Krupp/Ansaldo 75mm field gun, I found some news.

It's always goood to browse and google and browse and google the net.

Some Krupp/Siderius guns were delvered to the Italians by the German forces and apparently were used in the defence of Sardinia, together with ex-Belgian Krup guns!

"Les Allemands fournirent aux Italiens 38 pièces Krupp mod.06 de prise de guerre belge, qui furent réutilisées en Sardaigne. A ces canons vinrent s'ajouter ceux d'origine hollandaise, construits par Siderius, ainsi que les 75/27 Krupp mod.03 et 04 de prise de guerre yougoslave et grecque."

Posted by Epoch on the AXH forum:

Around 1930 the Chinese Navy placed a big order with HIH. So far I have not been able to uncover the details of this deal, but I have at least traced one gun in service with the Chinese Navy.

According to Richerd Wright in his excellent The Chinese Steam Navy 1862-1945 (London 2000) the light cruiser or gunboat Yat Sen (built 1930) was fitted with "an improvised main armament of one Dutch 6in forward, and a Japanese 5.5inch aft", besides an "impressive" AA armamament (4 3inch guns).

Yat Sen was - with the rest of the Chinese Navy - put out of action by the IJN in 1937 near Nanking. But the ship was salvaged, refitted/rearmed in 1939 and used by the IJN as a trainingship named Atada.

The ship was returned to China in 1946, rearmed again and named I Hsien.

Below is a 1931 picture from Jane's 1938 of Yat Sen, showing her (HIH) 15cm no 1 gun.



Who has more pics of Chinese naval artillery in the 1930s?

Added 12 august:

I suspect more that just one gunboat was armed with the HIH guns, but probably just the gunboats and only in the 29-31 period.

Both Jane's and Wright (in the year 2000) just mention inches and pounds (Sigh! Who on earth still does that?) so it's hard to say.

Taking a look at possibilities besides Yat Sen (1 single 15cm, 4 single 75mm AA, 1930) there might have been:

- Yung Sui (to be armed with a single 15cm (= the HIH on the Yat Sen?) but instead with 2 single 12cm and 3 single 75mm AA (approx 1929)

- Ming Chuen: 1 single 12cm and 1 single 10,5cm, 1930 (these are specifically marked QF so probably British)

- Ming Sen: 1 single 12cm one 10,5cm, one 75mm AA, 1931

- Wei Sheng and Tei Sheng seplane carriers: 1 single 12cm, one single 75mm AA, each fitted 1929-30.

-Tze Chiang and Ta Tung: two 12cm each and 1 75mm each, modernised 1930-31

- Kan Lu survey ship: one single 75mm, conv 1930

Possible total HIH guns:

- 1 15cm "6 inch"
- 9 12cm "4.7 inch"
- 2 10,5cm "4 inch"
- 12 75mm AA "3 inch"

Not counting the smaller guns.

Confirmed now on this Taiwan ROC navy page:
http://vm.rdb.nthu.edu.tw/cwm/weapon/wp1/wp1.html

I visited Belgrade Military Museum yesterday, where I previously found (May 2006) one artillery piece that puzzled me – bigger (higher) than other field guns and with considerable elevation, I though it was some Krupp howitzer. However, when I read the articles about HIH guns here, at Overvalwagen Forum, I realized it is probably HIH-modernized Krupp 75mm field gun. Without good photos to prove this, I keep my mouth shut. But yesterday I made a lot of photos – see for yourself, this is unquestionable HIH-Krupp piece.

Thanks The Edge for those pictures! Very nice indeed.

The HIH name plate on the carriage is of course definite proof. Note the gun itself is Krupp and number 102 from 1906. This means it is part of the original batch ordered straigth from Krupp (but with Dutch royal markings). Later during and just after WW1 these guns were assebled at Hembrug with Bofors barrels and even in 1940 Hembrug was still producing them with the help of Dutch subcontractors.

The question is how did the gun get to Belgrado?
Was it captured in Holland and then used in the Balkans? By German allies perhaps, Croats? I have no clue.

Kind regards,
Nuyt

this one has a partially collapsible tail?

One made fit for motorized transport

NO, this



is the KNIL Krupp 75mm with AI Hembrug boxtrail and hardrubber tyres

check



and



A different Krupp 75 and a different modification!

The pictures were taken durng the 1st Shanghai battle with Japanese army in 1931:

Great pictures and thanks xingbake!
Very nice indeed....

Kind regards,
Nuyt

from here:
http://www.fpschina.com/index.php?showtopic=11415

Again, it is my post on Sonicbbs

Hi Xingbake,
the caption seems to mention a unit starting with 25...
It would be interesting to know in which unit these weapons were serving...
Do you have the full text? Or can someone deduct the unit?
Nuyt

In the 1931-33 period HIH Siderius tried to get into new markets. For both Portugal and Greece field pieces were converted, though there is little information.

However, the recent find of a Krupp 9cm on HIH Siderius carriage at Porto Military Museum, seems to have at least partially solved the Portuguese question:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1184284120/gun+field+information and
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/message/1186482186/Portuguese+Artillery+Adventures+%284%29

At the moment we can only speculate: possibly just one of these conversions were done for Portugal as there is presently no info on any other pieces in Portuguese service.

About the Greek gun there is no info at the moment.

From AXH forums:

Dear Nuyt,
According to the Directorate of History, of the General Staff of the Hellenic Army, after 1923 all field guns available, were of old design and manufacturing, seriously damaged during the battles of the previous years, or in bad condition since they were captured on battle. Their maximum range was limited after the continuous use, but also due to the old carttridge they used. In order to achieve a range of over 6km their crew had to dig the ground for providing an angle of fire, but as a result they were not returning on the previous firing position. During intense use they were facing problems in their smooth operation. Their main advantage though, was the relatively high rate of firing. As a result it was decided to send a Krupp gun, to the Siederius factory in Holland, in order to be modernized, and finally:
It was possible to achieve a 25o angle of fire (without digging) so in this way ranges of 7,5km were achieved.
The barell was secured on the previous angle of fire, after the fire.
By using improved shells, a range of 9km was achieved.
Now about the type of the gun, this was a Krupp 75mm, from which, over 120 units were available in service. Since the Hellenic Army, never ordered Krupp field guns, it is believed that they were captured during the previous confilcts with Bulgaria or Turkey. It is not clear, if the Hellenic Army fianlly adopted the modernization program (I doubt about this) but it clear that 80 of them went under a general repairing program in the military factories of Athens, along with the modification of the chamber that allowed the use of the Schneider ammunition. Finally a modification applied on the optical sights, new blocks were manufactured for those without any and quantities of spare parts were produced.
After that they were fully operational at the beggining of the WW II. Those field guns were used on the fortifications of Metaxas Line, (eastern Macedonia and Thrace front) against the german forces that invaded Greece on April 6, 1941.

Regards,
Idomeneas

There is a Krupp-HIH 75 mm gun in the Greek War Museum in Athens. It sits there at the entrance, prominently, but without any info! As the gun barrel bears Dutch Army markings, we can ID this field piece as a "7 Veld", an ex-Dutch Army piece probably used by Axis forces in Greece during WW2.
It is the nr 103. Who has more info on this gun and its reason for being Greek? Was this gun maybe used by the Greek Army themselves during the Greek Civil War?







Interestingly, inside the museum, there is a scale model of a "Krupp 75mm field gun, Model 1906". But it is not the original gun. It has a boxtrail and is therefore very, very similar to the Dutch Krupp-HIH 7 Veld (which was actually a Model 1903). Does this model depict the Siderius prototype delivered to Greece?

Note that the piece discovered by The Edge in Belgrade is the No 102 of the same production year:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/message/1159040531/Krupp-HIH+gun+found%21