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Argentina

October 8 2006 at 5:07 PM
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Now we are at it in South America, why not systematically run down the list of countries, starting with A for Argentina.

A good starting point as always is the Tanks! website:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/argentina/argentina.html

What do we get there?
- 1930s Vickers tanks: we have seen them before in many places;
- the Tempo, again;
- the wartime homebuilt Sherman lookalike "Nahuel" tank with an old Krupp 75mm gun;
- Thornycroft 6x6;
- Crusader tanks converted to SPG by using Schneider 105mm and Bofors 75mm guns;
- 1926 Crossley armoured cars;
- more indiginous designs;
- US halftracks with what look like old Krupp guns piggy back style.

According to the Vanderveen books there were also Dodge, GMC and International trucks in the 1930s as well as Citroen-Kegresse halftracks and Renault 6x4 trucks.

Some more pictures from the Vanderveen books:

A Dodge/Marmon-Herrington 4x4 truck:


A Crusader/Schneider 105mm SPG:



Artillery:

A Schneider 105mm:
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/MuseoEA/pages/Schneider%20105%20mm%20L17%20Mod_%201928_enMuseo%20EA_CV_abr02_JPG.htm

More Schneider, 1928:
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/EA04/pages/Bart14_JPG.htm
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/EA04/pages/Bart15_JPG.htm

Bofors 75mm field gun, still in service...
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/EA/pages/Bofors%2075L40%20JMB_jpg.htm
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/EA04/pages/BArt18_JPG.htm
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/EA04/pages/Bart19_JPG.htm









    
This message has been edited by nuyt on Oct 8, 2006 5:14 PM


 
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Re:argentina

October 10 2006, 3:52 PM 

Argentine Schneider M1928 guns and howitzers:
75mm L18,6 mountain gun
105mm L12,4 mountain how.
105mm L17,8 how.
105mm L12,4 cav.how.
105mm L30,8 gun
155mm L15,05 how.
155mm L30,86 gun
pneumatic tyres were later fitted to at least 105mm and 155mm examples.
40 105mm's are reported still around (reserve) as well as 14 155mm L30.86 which were still operational in 1978 and in reserve till the mid nineties.
One 105mm L30 was modernized by CITEFA and at an army exhibition a couple of years ago, but didn't go into production.
Argentine Bofors M1935 75mm L40
224 were ordered by Argentine of which 200 were delivered before WW2.
The other 24 were taken over by the Swedish government at the start of WW2, 8 went to the Finish army during January 1940, 16 were completed during 1940 and
used by the Swedish army (together with 28 Siamese examples and 20 new ones).
Pneumatic tyres were later fitted and during the seventies Argentine presented
12 each of these guns to Paraguay, Bolivia and Uruguay, were they are still in
reserve or in use for training and saluting purposes.
Around 70 Argentine ones are in use for training and in reserve.

 
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Thanks, Bram

October 10 2006, 8:37 PM 

Anything found on the WFB 3 inch guns yet?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/message/1152880691/

Cheers,
Nuyt

 
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argentine artillery

June 18 2007, 10:31 PM 


 
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Official link

October 10 2006, 11:59 PM 


 
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A naval gun, but still interesting...

October 12 2006, 8:36 PM 

The only known use of the 25.4mm Vickers AA gun, installed on the training cruiser La Argentina - it's written up here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Vickers25.4.htm

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

 
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(Login mrsvinci)

tank NAHUEL DL 43 ( in spanish )

October 13 2006, 2:35 AM 

see:

http://www.europa1939.com/documentos/tanqueargen.html#1

what is the model of the bofors 75mm gun and the co-axial 12,7mm machine-gun used in the tank?

thanks for any response

Marcelo Vinci

 
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Re: Tank NAHUEL DL 43

October 13 2006, 4:45 AM 

I think the obvious candidate is the Bofors 75mm L/40 M1935 that Bram mentioned in his post; with two hundred delivered, the Argentines could surely spare sixteen to put into these tanks.

By the way, I have read that DL stood for "Dientes del Leon", the teeth of the Argentine lion.


    
This message has been edited by soucee on Oct 13, 2006 4:48 AM


 
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"Gun & machine guns of Argentine Nahuel Tank"

October 18 2006, 2:38 AM 

Scuse for my bad english, I am writer of two books about Armoured Vehicles in Argentina. The first was "Blindados Argentinos, de Uruguay y Paraguay", and the last the "Nahuel DL 43" (Argentine Armoured Fighting vehicles up 1950). The gun of the Nahuel tank was the Krupp 75 mm Gun L. 30 Mod. 1909. The first version of Nahuel ( 1943-44) are 3 machine guns Madsen Mod 1926 of 7,65 mm in the hull, in the recycled vehicles (1947) are only one machine gun Madsen in the hull.
The machine gun of the turret, are 3 versión: one of 12,7 mm (???), other version is not a machine gun (only the tube). And the other (my version) was is one argentine Alan machine Gun 7,65 mm.
My Best wishes from Argentina.

 
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Re: Gun & machine guns of Argentine Nahuel Tank

October 18 2006, 7:13 AM 

First, your English is much, much better than my Spanish!

Second, how many Nahuel tanks did Argentina plan to build? Was it more than the sixteen that were actually built?

Third, were the two Nahuel tanks some reports say went to Paraguay actually T16 carriers, misidentified as "tanques argentinos"?

Cordially

Susan Cross


    
This message has been edited by soucee on Oct 18, 2006 7:15 AM


 
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Gun & machine guns of Argentine Nahuel Tank

October 18 2006, 5:59 PM 

Hello !!!.
The realy number of Nahuel Tanks built are only 12 (1943-1944), but for strategic bluff the comments said one number bigest, remember what Brazil, the traditional rival of Argentina, received from EEUU a big lot of american tanks and half tracks, and broken the regional military balance.
The two Nahuel donated to Paraguai, was a "legend", the realy donation was two T-16 carriers with the return of the flags and others war trophies from Argentina to Paraguay of the "Triple Alliance War" in the XIX century (Argentina, Brazil and Uruguai, against Paraguai).
In the year 1947 the 12 Nahuel´s, was re- assemblied in the Arsenal Esteba de Luca, but in 1948 (with the arrival of the Sherman´s) was declarated redundant and abandoned during many years, its a shame..., but none survived for the Armour Museum.
Cordially
Cav. Ricardo Jorge Sigal Fogliani

 
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Muchas gracias

October 18 2006, 9:06 PM 

Y bienvenido aqui!

Nuyt

 
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M45 75mm inf gun Matorras

October 22 2006, 11:55 AM 

Kosar shows this gun in his introduction in Infanteriegeschuetze und Rueckstossfreie Leichtgeschuesse. Does anybopdy know more about this gun?

 
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Re: M45 75mm inf gun Matorras

October 30 2006, 4:25 AM 

maybe it's a prototype?

or only a small batch is produced?

probably they are built in a army arsenal.( ? )


 
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Argentina small weapons

October 30 2006, 4:04 AM 

from another forum:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1932&page=29

Here is an article from a Dutch gun magazine, lovingly translated by me:

SAM Weapons Magazine, issue 114. Translated from Dutch to English by Man of Stoat.

ARGENTINE WEAPONS

On the second of February 2002, Willem-Alexander and Maxima Zorreguieta married. Given that SAM is a weapon magazine, we will take the opportunity of this royal wedding to give attention to Argentine arms.

Just like in many Latin American countries, 19th-century Argentine weapon history is shrouded in mist. As a former Spanish colony, Argentina declared independence in 1816. A large part of the rest of the century was spent with a never-ending series of border-dispute wars and skirmishes with the surrounding countries, such as Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Bolivia. These wars were fought out by militias who used everything that could be shot; a national army was only formed around 1870 and from that moment there also started to be more unity in the Argentine armoury.

The adoption of the Mauser model 1891 rifle appears to have been more or less the start of their own arms industry. Even though these weapons were originally bought in Germany, they were also made under the supervision of the General Fabricatiónes Militares (DGFM -- a sort of Artillerie Inrichtingen) in the state arms factory, the Fabrica Militar de Armas Portatiles "Domingo Matheu" (FMAP) in Rosario. Matheu was a member of the first Argentine Junta of 1810 and played an important role in the development of a National arms industry. In the 20th century a number of adjacent individual arms factories sprung up, which operated with varying success.

Pistols

The first self loading pistol of the Argentine armed forces was the Mannlicher Pistola Modelo 1905, a somewhat modernised version of the model 1901, in 7.63 mm calibre. These weapons are marked "Md.1905" on the left side of the frame and with the Argentine Coat of Arms on the right hand side. The pistols appear not to have been uniquely numbered. The Mannlichers were consecutively numbered, from one to approximately 12, 000, and the Argentine pistols all fall within this series. Aside from that, Argentina was the only country in the world that officially brought this model of Mannlicher into service as a military arm.
In 1916 the Mannlichers should have been replaced with the Colt M1911 which was brought into service as the Pistola Automatica Sistema Colt, Modelo 1916. Although Colt appears to have made a number of examples for Argentina, the deliveries were quickly stopped due to American involvement in the First World War. At the start of the 1920s they were resumed and when Colt followed the 1911 with the M1911A1, Argentina also took this weapon into use as the Modelo 1927. The pistol was produced under licence at the Argentine state Arsenal DGFM-FMAP in Rosario, but it is not known precisely when production began. Some authors say 1930; according to others the pistol was only made in Argentina from 1947. Just as with the Mannlicher, the model 1927 pistols were marked with the Argentine Coat of Arms, in this case on the right-hand side of the slide. The total number is estimated at 75,000; the pistol illustrated here has the serial number 63512.
The model 1927 was produced in Argentina under an official licence, in contrast to the so-called Ballester-Molina, which was produced by the Hispano Argentina Fabrica de Automoviles S.A. (HAFDASA). The Ballister-Molina differs from the 1911 A1 on a number of points, mostly in the construction of the trigger, the safety, and the shape of the hammer spur. Little is known about the history and the use of these pistols. It is known that an unknown number were bought by the Brits during the Second World War, and for the most part were issued to SOE agents.
In 1969 the Argentine Colts were replaced in their turn by the Browning High-Power, adopted as the Pistola Browning PD. These were also made directly under licence, again at FMAP in Rosario. Between 1969 and 1981, 184,533 were produced.

Rifles

In 1891 Argentina adopted a Mauser rifle, under the appellation Modelo 1891. This weapon bears a strong similarity to the Belgian Mauser M1889, with its characteristic magazine, but lacking the separate jacket around the barrel. Alongside the infantry rifle there were also various carbine models used, mostly for the cavalry, and all under the appellation Modelo 1891. Most of these weapons were produced by Ludwig Loewe & Co in Berlin.
In 1909 the new model appeared, based on the German Gewehr 98, with the magazine completely in the stock. There were also a carbine version and a version with a telescopic sight in use.
After the Second World War the Argentines received a colourful assortment of new rifles: American M1 Garands, Belgian SAFNs and Italian BM59s, all in modest numbers. In the intervening period the FAL made its appearance, in 7.62 x 51 NATO calibre. This weapon was adopted in 1955. An unknown number were ordered from F. N., whilst at the same time a contract was concluded for licensed production in Argentina. Due to the coup against General Juan Peron, it took until 1958 for the weapons from Belgium to be delivered. Ultimately three versions were produced in Argentina:the FAL II, the FAL Para, and the FAP, the latter a full-automatic with a bipod.
At the start of the 1980s FMAP developed their own rifle model, the .223 NATO Fusil Automatico del Republica de Argentina, otherwise known as the FARA 83. Whether this weapon has been officially adopted in the meantime is not known.

Submachine guns

Most Argentine submachine guns are native designs. A number were made by the Fabrica de Armas Halcon SATYC in Buenos Aires. Halcon (Spanish for Hawk) was set up in 1941 and in the passage of time produced a large number of variants, from the first Model 1943, via the 1946, 1957, and 1960, to the model 1963, illustrated here. All of these weapons were in 45 ACP calibre, or in 9 mm Parabellum and were straight-blowback. The Halcon model 1963 has a telescopic stock and a plastic-shrouded magazine housing, which also serves as a forward grip. The two triggers serve for semiautomatic and automatic fire. The model 1963 fires from a closed bolt. Another important series of submachine guns were made by the state Arsenal FMAP. The first model was the PAM 1, which stands for Pistola Ametrelladora 1. This weapon was a faithful copy of the American M3 A1 grease gun, albeit in 9 mm Parabellum calibre, and was adopted by the Argentine army around 1952. The PAM 2, from the start of the 1960s, was a slightly improved version of the PAM 1, with a safety catch just behind the magazine housing. This catch must be pushed forward to un-safe the weapon.
Around 1970 a completely new concept appeared, initially called the P.A. 3 DM, but later rechristened as the F.M.K.3. It is not clear what the letters stand for. This weapon fires from the open position and has a bolt which lies partly around the barrel. This construction was copied from the Uzi. Just as with the latter, the magazine is inserted in the pistol grip and the weapon has a plastic hand guard around the front part of the receiver. There is a version with a fixed stock (the F.M.K. 4) and the here-illustrated with a telescopic wire stock. As far as it is known, the F.M.K.'s are still in production.
To close, there is still another series of submachine guns from the commercial firm,the Armas & Equipos S.R.L. from the city of Cordoba. Of these MEMS-models, named after the developer Miguel Enrique Manzo Sal, there are at least seven models, although none of these appear to have been purchased on a substantial scale.

Machine guns

The first machine-gun of the Argentine armed forces was the watercooled Maxim. In 1895 the Argentines bought 50 from the Maxim Nordenfelt Guns and Ammunition Company. Three years later another hundred and 50 examples were bought from DWM in Berlin, and in 1907 there followed another order, for a hundred more. According to data discovered by machine-gun expert Dolf Goldsmith, 95 Maxims was sold as surplus material in 1957. One example, with the serial number 17, landed via H. L. Visser in the Army Museum collection. A charming idea for a wedding present, this Maxim for Maxima?
Just like many other countries, Argentina also adopted a light machine gun before the Second World War, in this case the Danish Madsen in the Argentine rifle calibre of 7.65 mm. A small number of light Browning machine guns were also used, probably BAR's commercially produced by Colt. In 1954 the production of a native design began, the Alam, but this was stopped after a short time. During the 1960s and 70s, Argentina imported a number of French AAT-52 and Austrian MG3 machine guns, mounted on vehicles. The most important machine-gun of this moment is the Belgian MAG, which has been produced since 1980, also under licence at FMAP. As Squad Automatic Weapon, the Argentine Army uses the FALO which, under the appellation Fusil Automatico Pesad (FAP), is also produced in Argentina.



 
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more on argentina small weapons ( in spanish )

October 30 2006, 4:09 AM 


 
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Obrigado!

October 30 2006, 5:00 PM 

Thanks Marcelo for this extensive info!
Kind regards,
Nuyt

 
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helmets and more

November 18 2006, 12:29 AM 


 
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The Nandu jeep

November 19 2006, 3:36 AM 

in spanish

see: http://www.cocheargentino.com.ar/n/nandu.htm
4 are produced ( TANKS say 10 ).

 
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criollo 4x4 armored car

November 19 2006, 3:49 AM 

in spanish

see:http://www.auto-historia.com.ar/Historias/Hispano%20Historia.htm

photo of an armored car based on the criollo chico 4x4
engine is a 95hp. no other info.

a new vehicle to me.

marcelo vinci

 
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BOfors 10,5cm L12 mountain howitzer

July 5 2007, 10:29 PM 

This weapon is mentioned by Kosar as delivered to Argentina in the late 1920s.
Bram's Schneider from above?
Who has a picture?

 
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British Pathe

July 9 2007, 10:22 PM 




Any IDs?

 
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nuyt
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Life and death of artillery weapons

July 21 2007, 10:29 AM 


 
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nuyt
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more argie pics

July 26 2007, 9:34 PM 

Lots of Argentine stuff:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1932

Including Schneider 75mm AA guns:

 
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AA gun

July 20 2009, 8:47 PM 

Isn't this a Skoda 76.5 mm L50 AA gun (instead of a Schneider)?

 
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nuyt
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a website

June 13 2008, 8:33 PM 


 
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Argentine artillery

July 7 2009, 3:54 AM 

Does anyone have photos of the 130mm Krupp field howitzer mentioned in one of the links above, as well as the Schneider commercial 155mm field howitzer that they acquired during the 1920s? Perhaps some of these guns are preserved in an Argentine museum somewhere.

 
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The Edge
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Schneiders in rows

July 20 2009, 12:57 PM 

http://www.dahe.ejercito.mil.ar/mhe/salaArtilleria.html

If you observe these photos, you might see four different Schneider models:
- 105mm light howitzer (similar to Mle 1934 & Turkish model )
- 105mm long gun (Similar to Polish Wz.29 & Greek M.25/27 )
- 155mm howitzer (famous S17C / Mle 17 )
- 155mm long gun (Argentinian "L/30.8"; similar gun Turkey also )

 
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nuyt
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Sweet!

July 20 2009, 6:49 PM 

The Edge, thank you, what a sweeet museum!
Did you check the other pages?

Is this a Krupp 75 mm with boxtrail?
[linked image]

There are also two Boforses for Stellan!

 
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nuyt
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Maybe

July 20 2009, 6:57 PM 


 
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re: 155mm Schneider C17S

July 21 2009, 6:33 PM 

The 155mm Schneider howitzer in the photo in the Argentine museum seems to have a split trail, is this correct?

 
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The Edge
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later modification

July 22 2009, 9:08 AM 

Obús Schneider 155 L.15 mod. 1928-Modernizado en la Post-guerra-Noten el color verde oliva conque se pintaron las ipezas de artillería fines de la decada del 40-comienzos del 50. Predio del Reg.Inf. No.1 "Patricios"

From:http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/showthread.php?t=851&page=2

If I understand correctly, split-trail could be post WWII modification.

 
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