This is a partial retransmission of a previous post:
Blake did make reference to a different type of shoulder turn in GTTB which he likened to that of skimming a stone across water. He wrote: "...the shoulder turn involved in skimming a stone across water--is very close to the way the body works in the swing I am about to describe." In his description of setting up for skimming a stone he said, "...the shoulders are slightly open and the pelvis is thrust forward." About the skimming action itself he wrote, "The shoulders, which started to turn with the hips, continue to turn after the hips have stopped." Later, in the Backswing section: "The shoulders complete a 90-degree turn from square after the hips have stopped and the movement is the same as the stone-skimmer's turn, a simple athletic movement." These words do not suggest a limited shoulder turn, however, I agree that the drawing in figure 15 does not seem to depict a full 90-degree shoulder turn, but in the words acccompanying figure 15 he wrote, "At the top of the swing I feel I have swung the trunk and arms as far to the right as I can, using the legs as a counterbalance." Swinging the trunk and arms as far to the right "as I can" would seem to produce a full shoulder turn, especially by a person of Blake's suppleness. In my own instinctive way of skimming a stone, my inclination is to "whip" my right arm, rather than "drag" with the legs, as I come down from the top to let the stone fly.
As to whether a limited shoulder turn is a key aspect of the reflex swing, I surmise that Blake would see the trail elbow position and use of the legs as the sole source of power to be the key aspects. However, with GTTB and his adoption of a Lee Trevino-style open stance, he thought he had found a solution to the problem of a good hip-shoulder relationship at address such that the hips will not turn with the shoulders and "collapse." By starting with the hips open, related to the shoulders, the hips can only turn back to about square at the top. The "super results" you have been getting with a more limited shoulder turn is intriguing. Do you find that your backswing is shorter with the more limited shoulder turn? Please keep us posted on your progress.
How did you make contact with Roger Judd in 1987, before the days of email, Internet and such? Regards, Jim
Addition: Mindy also thought that the open stance was extremely important since the hips only turn back to about square at the top of the backswing. The problem of "getting the hips out of the way" during the downswing is thus eliminated. Are you continuing to make progress with the changes you've made since viewing the Roger Judd film? Jim
Thanks for the response. My golf is somewhat limited at the moment due to an unusually large amount of snow in the U.K. However, at the driving range this morning my limited shoulder turn was still looking very promising just as long as I kept the whole swing very slow. I was striking the ball very solidly, especially the iron shots. I may need more work with the driver.
I have two points to make:
1) Was Mindy so supple ?? On page 19 of GTTB, when talking of the criticism that only a very supple person could achieve a full shoulder turn without turning the hips, Harry Weaver says that Mindy, quote, found this criticism rather puzzling because he is not, he says, a particularly supple person himself.
2) When skimming a stone, I cannot see that you would turn your shoulders so far that you would have turned your back to the target. Try it. I don't think the shoulder turn would be much more than 45 degrees. [ The only sense in which the shoulder turn might be called 90 degrees is if you started with your shoulders 45 degrees open. But I am concerned with determining what is the correct position at the top of the backswing. ]
I cannot be sure how I made contact with Roger Judd back in 1987. I may well have written to one of the U.K. golf magazines asking whether anyone else was interested in Mindy Blake and his ideas on the golf swing.
And in answer to a question from Ingvar I have a copy of 'Suicide by Socialism' which I shall let him read at some future time.
Here are two emails I received from Roger Judd who received instruction directly from Mindy in the 1970s and improved his handicap from four to plus one in three years. Roger has not posted on the forum but I do have his email address if anyone wishes to correspond directly with him. Note his statement that he and Mindy worked to get the left arm "lower than horizontal" at the top with right arm "in an L position," and "this could be 1 to 2 clubs longer." Longer? Hmmm. Not sure what this says about shoulder turn, but it would seem that the backswing would be curtailed if left arm is lower than horizontal at the top. Also intriguing that he emphasizes hips over legs. Jim
my last email on dragging was for my backswing only, not the full swing, the hips start the backswing and provided you stay OVER the hip and no physical effert to HIT the ball a dragging sensation may be felt. As i said before and Mindys words to me were his ulltimate position at the top full back turn left arm parallel to target line and parallel to the ground, right arm at top is therefore in an L position. We both experimented on getting the LEFT arm lower than horizontal at the top, and we found this could be 1 to 2 clubs longer, just some of the reasons why mindys grip is VERY important. Dilute imortant parts and you dilute results. I was lucky, i had tuition from mindy and took full advantage of it, questions questions questions always asking questions,as a result i went from 4 to plus 1 in 3 years. mindy told me himself it must be difficult to conceive a golf swing from a written page.
yes you can transfer what ever words or pictures you need to youre forum.
how to swing a driver to a putter with your HIPS, not legs, hips are stronger. drop a golf club on the floor pace back about 2 feet transfer weight to heels and swivel round to 45 degrees maximum keep hips knees and ankles still and turn shoulders until shoulders are paralell with golf club shaft take a stance left foot only place both hands to an address position right arm is well accross body left arn off left instep isssshhh breathe out reellaaxxee relaxe and move hips toward target as hips move so hands and arm move back alongthe backswing line you can now see left arm and club shaft yhey should be paralell its like a little dance find the thythm now try a putter tip line up putt put putter head back about 2 or 3 inches perform putt go right through any questions just ask hope this helps roger
Roger here again this question of dragging the arms and hands through the ball can only happen if the swing is STARTED with the hips ,which MUST move forward and finish square to the intended target with shoulders arms hands relaxed, my hips control 250 plus drive to a 2 feet putt arm and hands dont come into it. as soon as you use hands or arms the REFLEX is gone. ask lee trevino all the best roger