At present I am reading The Happy Camper by Kevin Callan (Hi Kev, are you on this forum?). In his book published in 2005 Kevin states on page 51 under Storm Proofing Your Tent – “Place a ground sheet inside your tent to prevent water from soaking your sleeping bag, making sure it’s big enough to ride up the tent walls at least 6 inches. Don’t place it on the outside. This will only trap water and cause more problems than using no ground sheet.”

I have great respect for Kevin and his publication. It is great reading and I am learning a lot from his book. As a seasoned camper I just can’t see placing a plastic ground sheet inside the tent as the best way to protect you from moisture and also protecting the bottom of the tent. I firmly believe that the ground sheet should be under the tent and within the perimeter of the tent. I.e. 2” smaller than the bottom of the tent. This way water does not get trapped between the ground sheet and the tent floor. This protects the tent floor and also keeps moisture away from the tent floor by directing it under the ground sheet.

Additional protection can be achieved by choosing high ground, moisture absorbing ground, trench digging to direct heavy flow away from the tent and an extra tarp over the tent. I have survived the heavest downpores using this method and came out dry every time.

With the ground sheet inside the tent it will do very little to keep you dry. Keeping the ground sheet 6” up the inside wall would be practically impossible unless you tape it up or press something against the sheet being sure you catch all the ground sheet around the inside perimeter. Hard to do I think.

I try and keep an open mind about things but I am having a hard time with this advice. Maybe some of you folks can help me see the light. Kevin Callan has a heck of a lot more experience in the bush than I do so I need some help believing that the ground sheet inside the tent is the best way to protect myself from the rain.
Al

my experience..........

cheap tent.... use all the tarp you have under and over the tent and you will stay dry.

good tent.... as long as the floor isnt punctured and you are not in more then few inches of water nothing will leak. I use the ground sheet under the tent only to protect the floor from sharp rocks, tree stumps etc etc.

I've always used mine outside my tent. I think in this case though, there is no right or wrong way.
Whatever works best, works for you. rarely, I have had leaks in my tent, however, I 've never had my sleeping bag get wet, as I have a sleeping pad as well, and it is quick drying too.

Markus
Etobicoke, Onterry-airy-airy-Ohhh!

I went through the same thought process years ago, after reading one of Cliff Jacobsons books, and ever since, I've always put the sheet inside the tent and have never had a problem with water getting through .
Where this technique excels is when you happen to pick a bad site, (soometimes you have no choiice),where water pools or even flows under your tent, having the sheet inside will keep you dryer that if the sheet was under, as the water can, and will get between the floor and the sheet, and ulimately soak through into your bag unless your tent floor is perfectly water proof. Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance that my floor is that good.
The disadvantage is the floor of the tent is directly on the ground and subject to abrasion, etc, and probably won;t last as long-however, if you keep the sheet on the inside, does it really matter what shape your floor is in??
I purchased some 6 mil vapour barrier from a building supply store, and it lasted about 5 or six camping trips, without a single drop inside my tent, which is a cheap, $140 tent, I purchased in 87. You don't need to tape it to the side of the tent, it just needs to be about 6 inches bigger than the floor area,to ensure water doesn't flow over the top of it and onto your gear.
In my experience, this has worked for me.
Skeeter.

as is Kevin. We were camped on McIntosh Lake about 10 years ago. In a heavy downpour the water pooled under one of our tents and then ran over the top of the ground cloth. We concluded, the only way to correct the problem was to place the plastic sheet inside the tent. As long as there are no holes in it the occupants will remain dry until the water rises over the folded up edges of the ground cloth. By then it is time to grab everything and head for the dining fly to wait out the storm. I have yet to see a tent that can keep you dry when pitched in a pool of water. Please, do not trench around tents in APP.

In a heavy downpour you're wise to do both. Outside to protect the floow and inside to stay dry. We were a multiple tent group last August and got killed with 2 nights of strong downpours. Only one tent, the one with the tarp inside, had dry sleeping bags and sleeping pads.

Outside if you have a good tent floor that doesn't leak.
Inside if your tent floor leaks.

New tent, good quality, then the floor is already waterproofed and the groundsheet goes underneath to protect the tent material. Then again, if the floor is already waterproofed, maybe you'll choose to leave the groundsheet at home since you don't want to carry the extra weight.

Older tent, regardless of quality, then I put the groundsheet inside basically the same way that Kevin describes it. With the groundsheet carrying up the sides of tent a bit then the water has much less chance of running overtop of the groundsheet.

Choosing the right site is important, but you don't always have a choice. In Frontenac you have to use the tent pads and there we found that the pads on at least some of the lakes were positioned so that that water drained across the tent pads. That was the place where I firmly decided it was time for the ground sheets to go inside the tents.

___________________________
No your other left!
www.loonislandoutdoors.com

If you have a good tent you don't need a ground sheet.
I've never used one and never had a leak.

Here's my take on it. Outside the tent, but make sure the "floor protector" is a few inches smaller in all directions than the actual floor, or else, yes, water will pool up on top of it and eventually leak into the tent.
My 2cents!

I agree with both suggestions, adopting both suspenders AND a belt. Put a groundsheet under your tent, a little smaller than your floorplan, and a tarp inside your tent, folded like a bathtub.

I used the plan #1 religiously and it did the job about 90% of the time. Once in ten, there were puddles in the tent. The trick was to get everything dry for the next night!

I can't see how you can go wrong by folding a $5 tarp inside your tent. If the weather is going to be dry and cold and windy, you can use the tarp for other purposes.

I always put my tent's ground sheet (that's why it's called a "ground sheet" and not a "tent liner") on the ground, under my tent. It is 1" to 2" inside of the line where the walls meet with the floor. I raise up the perimeter-edge of the ground sheet with a bit of forest litter (pine needles, bark particle debris, etc.)

Any rain dripping down the wall of the tent makes its way to the ground. And, should it and any other surface run-off run under the tent, it finds its way under the raised edge of the ground sheet and either flows under the ground sheet and out the other side or stays puddled under the ground sheet.

If the perimeter-edge of the ground sheet is allowed to stay flush on the hard ground, there's a distinct probability it will cause any flowing water to flow on top of itself and actually expose the floor of the tent to that water.

It's that little perimeter-line of debris (only 1" wide and 1/2" deep is fine) that allows a "ground sheet" to do its work. Otherwise the ground sheet could actually hold the water, stopping it from soaking into the ground and thereby cause more problems than no ground sheet at all!

When you break camp, you simply scatter the debris about so as to "leave no trace" of your bit of "engineering". And, after each trip, check your ground sheet that it hasn't developed any punctures or thin, worn spots! If it has, it's time to patch or replace it.

Barry Bridgeford
(central York Region)

Anyone use a "Reflective Blanket" as a outside ground sheet during the colder months?

I understand they are very crinkly noisy.

Open mind? You've already stated using a tarp in a manner other than your own, keeping the interior of a tent dry would be hard to do.

A tarp inside the tent can indeed stay up against the side of a tent wall. Our group has done it for years and we are not in the habit of using any gadgets or tape. It just spreads out and stays up preventing sleepting bags from spending all night up against the tent wall.

The reason for putting the tarp inside is due to the preponderance of duff in the eastern portions of North America. If I were camping out west and the ground was sharp rock I'd put the tarp outside.

With a tarp cut perfectly and placed under the tent there is still a very good chance that ground water will seep between the tarp and the tent floor. With the tarp inside, you not only have the roll up protection that duplicates the tub floor design made popular decades ago, you also have two layers of waterproof material between any ground water and the gear inside.

The bottom line, find the right tent, the right tarp and the right practice for you and then move on. These gear threads usually start out philosophical and then end up with a "my filter/stove/tent/concept is better than your filter/stove/tent/concept" type of argument.

Besides, if Kevin Callan does it, his wife must have made him do it. She runs the household.

-Jester

I know enough to know I don't know enough

Hello,

Sorry for not seeing this note before. I've been away a lot.

Anyway, what ever works for you is where I'd go with this one. It was Cliff Jacobson that convinced me it was better inside the tent - basically because all tents evnetually leak or gain condensation inside and I'd rather have a layer of plastic between me and the tent floor to help keep my sleeping bag dry.

Use your expensive tent's floor to protect your cheap inside-the-tent sheet. Makes sense right???

If you don't use an exterior ground sheet then your tent's floor will get wreaked and be basically useless.

If however, you protect your tent's floor with an exterior ground sheet and give it a yearly waterproof coating, then you don't need an interior sheet.

In short not using an exterior sheet trashes your expensive tent floor so you'll need that interior sheet.

fwiw: 60 nights year-round in a tent - BC rain forest, Yukon, Nuvavut and Canadian shield. - Exterior ground sheet only - no leaks - a little TLC maintenance goes a long way.

cheers
ted

To the Silent Places
www.parkerclan.ca

Thats exactly how I think about this Ted. Ground sheet is made to go on the ground.

Amen to that. Putting it inside would make me question how much I trust my tent to begin with!

A ground sheet is a term that was coined back at least as far as the 50's when scouts went out with tents that had no floor and a fancy piece of rubberized material or a coated piece of canvas was used under a sleeping bag.Over the years tarp construction developed and replaced the original ground cloth or ground sheet.That tarps are sometimes still called ground cloths is a matter of regionalism or habit. What we are talking about is a tarp that some people use in the manner of the original ground cloths and some others use on the inside of their tent while others use the same item over the top of their tent.

As stated previously if I were camping out west in the US or Canada where the ground was rocky and loaded with sharp material I'd put a tarp under the tent. In most places I am not worried about the bottome of the tent as where I backpack and paddle there is sufficient duff. I put the tarp inside since its use under the tent ensures that rain will eventually find its way between the tarp, which others call a ground cloth, and the tent bottom and find its way inside.The tarp inside will protect the contents of the tent and that is why Cliff Jacobson promotes such a practice. Again, as stated previously, this is a personal decision and for anyone to pontificate as if they have discovered the holy grail of wilderness practice is silly.

-Jester

Cliff Jacobson states the wear comes from your friction over the tent on the inside, so the wear on the tent is saved by using the tarp inside. I don't have the experience to tell you either or but his camping books convienced me....I have had no problems.

Probably no one "right" answer, as several people have commented, but I have always put the ground sheet under the tent, mainly in order to help protect the bottom of the tent from any rocks, tree roots, etc which may have gone unnoticed. Protection from rain is secondary, as I actually count on the tent itself for that.

Some may disagree, but I do not think it is wrong to dig a little trench around a tent site, in those cases where it appears that water may run down toward the tent from a higher point. In most cases it won't be necessary, but if it is, so be it. I'm as respectful of the environment as anyone, but "no trace" camping, in my opinion, applies in true wilderness situations where there are no marked campsites. In those circumstances it should be practiced. At a designated campsite, no one pretends that there is "no trace" of the campsite! If some hopefully minimal trenching will create a dry campsite as opposed to a wet one, I think the improvement is worth it.

Trenching on an established campsite is probably the worst thing you can do. There is no duff or vegetation to hold back the soil so what you get is rainwater eroding that little trench you dug until it becomes a nice ditch.
In extreme cases I've seen ditches a foot deep and two feet wide develop in as little as 1 good storm, and due to the positioning of the tent they usually develop right down the middle effectively destroying the site.
Better to redirect the water with a log and a little duff which can be put back when you leave

Well leading youth groups has given me a first hand account of the different options when it comes to getting wet and with that I have definetly changed my approach to ground sheets etc.

Myself I like many here never use a ground sheet, I have a good tent and pick my tent site well and I have never been wet even when a downpour tried to wash us out into the lake. I also use seam seal on my tent every year or every other depending on what we run into and how frequent we get out. Seam seal works wonders even on old tents.

What I have seen though is if your ground sheet is under your tent and not rolled back under the tent all around, you will get wet. Inside the tent I find depending on the season condensation may get you a little, and this is even worse if you dont stretch your tent out well with pegs etc. For older tents tyvek works really well inside your tent or even as a home made bivy to keep you dry.


Chris