Louise and I are just back from two weeks on the water split between our favorite places, the Park and Georgian Bay, getting blissed out on thunderstorms (an awesome display of hail and high water), rainbows, sunsets and time for big thoughts. So, at last given a chance to immerse myself in the realities of the park where indescribable beauty contrasts with defaced campsites and boorishly loud, obscene campers partying next door, I concede that I agree with Zeb’s response to the exchange regarding axes in the park:

“And lets be honest, banning axes will do nothing to curb park destruction. People use all manner of tools to hack at trees banning axes will do nothing but provide an enforcement tool for park rangers. A tool that does nothing to distinguish the responsible user from the irresponsible. “

The only thing that will reduce park destruction is banning the destructive people from the park, If you can find a way to do that justly and efficiently I'm all ears. Until then we'll have to put up with each other, axes and all.”

Late in the evening of our last day, as we watched numerous campers, families with children included, leaving the last portage from Kawawaymog into North Tea to run the gauntlet of shouted profanities from the drunken party on the point next door, I realized that there is nothing, really, to be done about the fundamental inanity of some people. I'm afraid that I must concede to all who wanted to leave well enough alone, leaving me with the forelorne hope that education will convince a few to change their destructive ways and that the next ice age will carry the rest away.

By the way, thanks a big bunch to Marcus for his tip about Northern Wilderness Outfitters on Kawawaymog. Paying $20 for the privilege of parking, putting in and taking out there saved us a huge heartache (and muscle ache) against a fierce headwind on our way home.

My real point here, though, is to pose a conundrum not too far removed from our “discussion” about axes. On our first night we arrived at a campsite on North Tea with a large bottle of wine left prominently by the last campers in the middle of the fire ring. What would you do?

Would you conscientiously clean up the campsite and carry the bottle with you for the rest of your trip and risk a fine for violating the can and bottle ban? Or what?

By the way, we really enjoy bringing boxed wine with us on our camping trips, leaving the cardboard behind and lugging in only the bag. One of the first things we do on arriving at a campsite is put the wine in the drink under a rock to cool, for a refreshing thirst quencher later in the evening.



This is a shot of Louise and me beside the smaller of the beautiful waterfalls at the mouth of the Amable du Fond below North Tea. There was still lots of water in the middle of August this year. Does anyone know the name of these falls?

I've never hesitated to pack out any contraband garbage. Simply say you're cleaning up after others, I'm sure any enforcement officers will understand.

Thanks for the props, you're clearly a smart man , though my grammar could have been better in that quote.

I don't think there is an effective method that is also just (and affordable). The truth is without putting more rangers on the lakes there is nothing that can be done, legally. The only effective way to deal with park vandalism is for those of us who witness it to take it upon ourselves to meet out justice.

I don't condone vigilantism so that brings us back to rangers and to be honest I'd probably despise the daily visits by rangers on my vacation as much as the tree scars. I think it's just something we have to live with. Take advantage of any casual opportunities we have to educate others but other than that hold back.

Great Photo BTW, you guys look like your straight out of the Tilly catalog. Fresh out of the bush and ready for the opera.

Great catch! Louise loves her Tilley, once upon a time lost on Georgian Bay and found again. Mine, though, is a Lenix, from White Squall, with the silly open cell foam in the original top replaced by closed cell, as recommended by White Squall staff, so it will float if blown away by the the elements.

Mark

We usually pack out non-burnable garbage on our way out. If am at the start of a trip I would likely leave the bottle in the hopes that somebody on there way out would pick it up.
On the up side - the further you go into the park the few ya-hoos you run into, and you tend to see less damage.

I'd leave the bottle, unless I was only a day from exiting. I agree with the bottle ban because I'm afraid of breakage. A $10 bottle of wine can end up costing me hundreds in damaged gear. Otherwise, I try to pack out as much other peoples' garbage as is convenient for me.

I'd have taken pictures of the yahoos. I'd have lodged a formal complaint with the park and the cops.

I think Preacher's probably offered the best alternative but I would've been hard-pressed not to confront them in a friendly manner fully prepared to flee in a hurry. I mean, we all like to have a good time but there are limits. I would expect that if they were approached in a manner that was amenable to their behavior that they would be more likely to agree to your wishes. I'm not talking about higher level reasoning but more like lower level reasoning!

<<<"I'm not talking about higher level reasoning but more like lower level reasoning!">>>

I dunno that sounds dangerous to me, I'm always tempted but I find that spirals into two monkey flinging poo real quick.

Zeb has also learned that if I'm not willing to get into a confrontation, perhaps he should think twice about it.

Oh depending on my mood I might say something like, "Hey there's kids out here, a-hole." Or I might say, "Grow the f* up you ignorant a-hole." Who knows I might even taunt them with, "I've got you on camera breaking the ban and on video harassing other campers. Enjoy your last time in the park, a-hole."

I too if by myself would avoid any kind of confrontation.

But I would shine my green laser pointer into their campsite come dark
and scare the crap out of them!!!! heh heh heh


Bo

Actually it's more like I'm wondering if it's worth it to say something when I hear the other guy respond "what did you say?" or "guess I should break your camera then". Then I have to decide if it's better to show myself in the hopes of dissuading these idiots or if I should hide in the bushes with a n axe that thankfully I'm allowed to bring to the park.

Preacher thinks faster than me... OK, Preacher talks faster than me, sometimes I'm not sure about the thinking part.

But nobody can order a pizza like him.

I did shout out at one point early on, "Hey, tone it down." To which someone responded, "Sorry."

But within a few minutes the party returned to its previous volume, with one particular lout sounding out a continuous string of profanities that went on into the night.

Our real concern was with the obvious level of drinking going on, which gave us little hope for an appeal to reason. I wish I had thought of the "bear spray' that we carry as an effective defense for use in a confrontation, but we chose instead to try to ignore them (which, fundamentally, proved impossible).

In the morning, six canoes loaded with 2-3 young people each limped out of the camp site, headed to the portage out of the park. Given the size of the group and only the two of us at the site next door, we chose instead to look to the quiet respite of a week on Georgian Bay.

-Mark

Hello Mark,

Your threads always provoke good discussions, one of the reasons I look forward to what you have to say. Although not a huge person, I am big enough, and growing up in CFB Petawawa I learned to fend for myself as a young teenager. That said, I would be very, very hesitant to confront offensive campers, especially if alcohol is involved. Simply stated, I do not want to ruin a single night of my trip for the sake of those who have little respect for a place like Algonquin and less respect for the people who treasure the park. That is one of the reasons I like to go deep when I go into the park, although that is not always a guarantee that you will not run into "interior delinquents". Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy tipping the park plastic as much as the next guy. On occasion we might get a little loud and cheery, but for the most part it is quiet and reflective conversation staring into the embers after a good day on the water. And, we always clean up after ourselves. My guess is that most of the truly offensive transgressions occur within easy travel of park access points.

For example, almost every time I go into Wet Lake we find a mess – cans, bottles, garbage, and I go into Wet a least a couple times a year. One year I packed out at least two 24’s of broken beer bottles (I counted the round bottoms), smashed in the fire pit. It was unbelievable. I took them to the gate at Achray and told the people there that these were left by the people who were camped on Wet just before we got there. I mentioned that they should know who they are and at the very least, send in a ranger the next time the same people make a reservation. I was very frustrated when the girl at the desk thanked me for collecting the bottles but then told me there was nothing they could do. And thinking back, she was right. Someone local could have come in for a day trip and trashed the place, someone different could make the reservation the next time – unless caught red-handed, it is a tough job to apprehend most offenders and it would take a much bigger salary line than currently exists on the MNR’s budget.

I think our best recourse is education. All of us who love Algonquin need to make an effort to educate people who use the park to think more about preserving our wilderness areas and curbing destructive behaviour. No easy task and sites such as this one and ABR do an excellent job. I know that I have learned much about “do’s and dont’s” in Algonquin since participating in this forum. I am taking a group of kids from the school where I work into Algonquin next month and one of the main focal points of that trip is to make sure they understand how to minimize impact and recognize destructive practices. This is something that we all have to continue to learn and develop, and at every opportunity, pass that knowledge along.

One final point, the reason I started to respond to this thread. Thinking about what Mark said earlier,

“where indescribable beauty contrasts with defaced campsites and boorishly loud, obscene campers partying next door”.

When I see or hear about this I cannot help but think of all those stupid, inane beer commercials where the great outdoors and a couple six packs are inextricably intertwined. We need to debunk the myth that camping and getting hammered are synonymous.

Sorry for the rant …

Coach

Thanks Coach for your helpful insights. It’s easy for us to condemn, as I did, the loutish behavior of a few thoughtless kids. But the challenge still remains for the rest of us, who are supposed to be old enough to know better, to share what we have learned with the next generation. So, hopefully one day, they will leave the world (in this case Algonquin Park) in better shape for their children than it was when we left it to them.

By the way, I encourage anyone who cares about improving the quality of their camping experience in the Park to check out the ABR links on the AA site. Please give ABR your vocal and financial support. Barry and his mates have done yeoman’s work on our behalf, and they deserve and need all the support we can give them.

-Mark

By the way, while they were preoccupied with their partying and hangovers, those kids next door missed some classic Algonquin "indescribable beauty" that evening and the next morning.

Good morning Mark, in repsonse to your concerns, what about reporting them to the Rangers on the way out, I go into the Park in the springtime and they ask for the color of our tent and canoe and the number in the party so I would think they would have a pretty good idea of who it was if they where reported, or at least narrow it down, not sure if anything would be done but thought I would pass it on.

That is the nice thing about the springtime, probably over 90% of the people in at that time are there for fishing and not really into partying heavy, the odd drink back at camp at night ( To tired from paddling a canoe all day )and not the time of year you want to take an unwanted swim. Or at least I have never had a problem with bothersome neighbors in the 30 some years I have been going in.

I gotta stop for a sec and play devils advocate.

Aside from actual vandalism what do we have a right to demand? Is it more fair for us to demand their behavior doesn't ruin our idea of a good vacation, when doing so may very well ruin theirs?

I don't want to camp next to a loud party group but I do remember being that drunk fool, and that was precisely what I wanted to be doing. Why is one vacation more correct than another?

I think it's important to remember that we don't all think of the same thing when we think of our camping trips. I don't play guitar at night around the fire but does that mean no one can just because I don't want to hear it?

The park does have noise & behavior rules.
"Rowdy behaviour, excessive noise, and obscene language is not tolerated at any time of day or night and may result in charges being laid and eviction."

We were all stupid kids at some point. If you weren't, you missed out!
That being said, we were also told to smarten up by someone unimpressed by our indescressions.

Neither Louise nor I are prudes by any stretch and we have been known to party pretty hardy ourselves, but really, Zeb, the persistent, obsenity laced shouting went way beyond tolerable, especially in a setting that is supposed to be family friendly.

Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and advice.

I had also asked in my original post if anyone knew the name of the falls on the Amable du Fond where it leaves North Tea. Anyone have any clues? They are really among the most beautiful I have seen anywhere in the Park, especially with the high water we had this summer.

I too have been bothered by unruly neighbours. I have been camping in the park for over 30 years and have ran into this type of behaviour many times, including Bo's guitar and not so great singing. Sorry Bo! I appreciate everyone wanting to do what their idea of a evening around a campfire is but as soon as your neighbours hear you it becomes noise that they may not want to hear. It was mentioned in a previous post that Bo's guitar was heard across the lake, this is unacceptable noise. It is nice that a bunch of you guys have all become great friends and meet up in the park, but their are a few of us who are there for the solitude. Some of you have lost sight of that and act as if you own the interior sites once you arrive. We all love the park. Please remember we all deserve what we came to the park for. Peace.

I'm not saying we should tolerate all behavior, I simply wanted to mention that the park is there for all of us.

While I may agree with the anonymous posters thoughts on Bo's guitar and singing (I want to stress the may , I've never heard Bo in action) I think if we expect others to be good neighbors we also need to be good neighbors and that sometimes means forsaking a little solitude so that others can (reasonably) enjoy themselves in their way.

I may consider Bo's guitar "noise" but calling it unacceptable to me is too much. Rather I'd wait and see how much of it I'm forced to hear before deciding it has to stop.

When I go camping I'm prepared for all manner of discomfort, rain, hail, heat, cold, sore muscles and injury to name just a few. I think we should be prepared for some noise sometimes as well.

However what you described Mark might very well make me play "the bear game" if I were camping next to it.

Well for those seeking 'solitude' there's always the option of checking into the Best Western in Bancroft, locking the door for the weekend and listening to Solitudes through earphones. Saves the hassle of pitching a tent and ensures you wouldn't run the risk of hearing someone who enjoys guitar as part of the AP experience, like the originals in the park did.

Mark & Louise,

What incredible pictures! You must have so enjoyed your trip, congratulations.

What would I do about a glass bottle of wine?
1st answer (if I were going out of the Park directly) would be to bring it out with me.
If not - 2nd answer (from what I know, which isn't a great deal about glass, the environtment or all of the Algonquin rules/regulations), would HAVE BEEN to break it in the camp fire pit to 'help' alleviate any potential injuries etc.

ALTHOUGH, my hubby (please forgive him at times) says that glass is inert, and if he were to do 'anything at all' (likely wouldn't-haha), that he would throw it in the lake to sink to the bottom. He informs me that the bottle won't break and shall float to the bottom and live amongst the rocks! That sounds like good sense to me; especially considering there is a chance that we could be fined? for someone else's ignorance!

(Mr. Bearcub, you are too funny with your ‘dry’ sense of humour!)

I am extremely interested in providing my 2cents worth in regards to the noise/disturbance topic which continues to arise. We all deserve to have fun (truely, in our own way), to unwind, relax, escape to solitude and peace, etc etc (whatever we are there for). I would NOT NOT NOT suggest having the Park 'PATROLLED' more (yikes, that could lead to No drinking, No smoking, No swearing, No nudity (haha) No ANYTHING allowed!! - and everyone might as well stay home to read a book or surf the internet regarding Algonquin!)

Now, there is somethat that I really do not understand..... WHY as it stands, are we technically able to book a camp site on a specific lake, YET not be able to select the actual camp site? I am looking forward to the REAL answer to my question. Basically, if you’re in a large group, you are not going anywhere for solitude. Therefore, why can’t someone looking for quiet be able to select a site of their choice, AWAY from sites that are (ALREADY) booked or DESIGNATED for large groups?

There needs to be a way put into the Algonquin Reservation SYSTEM that will enable MANAGING this -- Without having ADDITIONAL enforcements put into place and therefore diminishing the joys of those who want to unwind, in DIFFERENT MANNERS, from work and all the stress we have in life!)

Just suggesting a solution..... Algonquin / MNR, I’m up for hire (for the people)!

Mrs Bearcub, I have been using the Reservation system since it started and from talking on the phone with the people my guess is they have a list of lakes for the park with the number of campsites that can be reserved for that particular lake. I think if it got to the point of them having a map in front of them and us telling them we want the one beside the big rock or the fallen down tree people would be on the phone with them for almost 15-20 mins. at a time. I would love to be able to book a particular campsite at a lake but can see why it probably won't happen.

Safe camping.

Mrs Bearcub, I have been using the Reservation system since it started and from talking on the phone with the people my guess is they have a list of lakes for the park with the number of campsites that can be reserved for that particular lake. I think if it got to the point of them having a map in front of them and us telling them we want the one beside the big rock or the fallen down tree people would be on the phone with them for almost 15-20 mins. at a time. I would love to be able to book a particular campsite at a lake but can see why it probably won't happen.

Safe camping.

I myself side with those who say they pack it out if exiting the park in the near future or leave it for someone who will be exiting the park in the near future if you are at the start of a longer trip. This is in fact what I most often do. The park officials I've encountered have always been reasonable. I believe, fear of being punished for doing the right thing is unreasonable at best and possibly just a rationalization for not doing what one knows is the right thing to do. On longer trips in which I've encountered similar situations that where too egregious to ignore, I've cleaned up the mess and upon meeting a park official days later, presented the collection in exchange for a new yellow park trash bag. I've made this exchange on at least two occasions and never have my motives been misconstrued by the recipient. If memory serves me, when this subject came up 5 or more years ago, Barry contacted the park and they indicated that one should not fear doing the right thing and packing out others contraband. If nothing else, keep in mind that the sites are visited (occasionally) by park officials for latrine relocation etc. and at that time they would have the resources to remove the contraband. Not to suggest this as a "trash pickup" run, but if one is not willing or able to "pack it out". There are others in official and un-official capacities who are. With regard to Mrs. Bearcub's suggestions of "break it in the camp fire pit to 'help' alleviate any potential injuries etc." I'd think that this is only exacerbating the problem (making one bottle into hundreds of pieces of broken glass). Likewise, the suggestion of "throw it in the lake to sink to the bottom." seems to me to resemble the outdated thought of 'out of site out of mind'. Again I don't think this is a good solution. Others on this board have even gone to the lengths of taking fins and masks to retrieve similar old disbris from the lake bottoms. I'd like to suggest that if one is inclined to employ either of these two suggestions that they opt for doing nothing at all and leave the matter to someone who is willing to pack it out at a later time.

Under no circumstances is breaking glass in Algonquin a solution. The suggestion to break a found bottle in the firepit isn't good at all.

Firepits get cleaned-out periodically, either by staff or by campers. That means that someone has to scour out the ash debris. Any sharp glass shards (or tin can lids for that matter) that may be in amongst the ash have the potential of injuring the person cleaning out the firepit.

Also, those cold ashes and any items hidden in them get disposed of under nearby bushes .. sooner or later becoming part of the campsite's "floor debris".

So, please don't break any glass under any circumstances in Algonquin.

Thanks!

Barry Bridgeford
(Aurora ON)
http://www.ABRweb.ca

I think, if I had room, I would pack it out in a seperate compartment in a backpack, so that if it does break, it'll all be in one area, and you'll have a few more minutes until it would shred everything, and I would keep it away from anything shreddable. Depending on the size, I may wash it off and put it in a pot and trek it out. If I was deep in the interior and didn't think I could safely trk it out, I would do either one of two things.

1)grab a yellow garbage bag (which I pack by the gross) and put all of the debris in it, maybe double bag it, then tie up the top and write "glass and/or cans found on the campsite, rangers please take out"

2)I would pack it (again, if I had room) and bring it one step closer to the finish line, out of the park. Because I wouldn't want it to break, I may only carry it for one day and do what I said in the first one. I would hope that others like some of us would keep doing the same until we reach a warden or get out of the park, kind of like going step-by-step. This one depends greatly on chance, but it's better than nothing.

As for the campers, it is my belief that your idea of a great night may be different than mine or the camper on the other side of you, but whatever you do, I don't care as long as you
A)don't befowl the park,
B)if you do pack in cans/bottles, you pack them out
C)leave the site respectable, and
D)You aren't loud!
You can do pretty much anything quietly, and if you can do that, everyone will be happier! Bo and I love the guitar, but of we play it quietly enough that you can't hear us nextdoor, then why should someone complain? If you want to get drunk (not my idea of a good time) Go ahead! Just have the sense enough to stay quiet! If you want to party hardy or be loud, choose a campsite that's far away from anyone else, or next to another group doing the same. If this isn't possible, then, if you can, wait until it is! That liquor has probably waited 5 years to be drank, why cant it wait another night? Maybe the neighbours will be gone, or a different site will open up, or you'll be on a different lake where it doesn't matter so much.

Zeb, you were right on some levels with the devil's advocate, why should some people sacrifice their "good time" for someone else's? It, i guess, varies as to who else is on the lake. If it's a silent lake, hold your party until you're gone, but if there are other partiers on the lake, bump the party up a night and party while others are doing so! Don't wreck the one person wanting quietness' experience two night is a row!

Another good solution would be common courtesy. If you site is next to someone else's, and you know that you're going to be loud, advise them that day to that they can be forewarned and can't complain or so that they can find another site before it's too late. (aka dusk)

phew, glad to get that out of my system. Although I know my suggestions aren't perfect, I do know that they would be definately what I'd do, and that they would be acceptable for both sides.

My friends call me the next Sir Wilfred Laurier because no matter what the situation, I can find 50 million different comprimises! (just hope I don't get voted out of office....)

Trainman
Take everything as it comes; the wave passes, deal with the next one. -Tom Thomson