Please head on over ABR (Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists) forum if you are against the proliferation of nails that are driven into campsite trees ... http://www.network54.com/Forum/612132/thread/1219341318/last-1219341318/Case+Against+Nails+-+Alternatives ... share your experiences and ideas.

Barry Bridgeford
http://www.AlgonquinAdventures.com
http://www.ABRweb.ca

I will be the first to admit to enjoying the convenience of nails in trees to hang my pots and pans in camp. Do I recognize these nails are not good for the trees? Of course. Would I use an alternative such as the coat-hanger du-hickey? Sure. Would I go to the trouble of making one? Maybe.

The park hands out garbage bags with each permit. Why not supply one of these?

Steve
Hamilton, ON

I have never taken a nail into the park. I cannot recall ever using any of the many nails I have seen over the years. I do not have a need to use them.

I was at a great site on Ralph Bice this past weekend and was almost in disbelief of how many nails there were in the trees around the site. Now that being said I did take advantage of some of these to hang up some gear.

I agree with Steve, don't think I would go through the trouble of rigging up a home made hook.

Almost everything I bring has some sort of rope or string attached to it, so when I need to hang things( and there are no existing nails) I just run a rope beteween 2 trees and employ a truckers hitch and voila!.

Just my 2 cents

Noah

Barry...
I think that is a great idea you have to replace nails and/or to be able to hang stuff on a tree.

I don't think they should be supplied at access points as people will leave them on trees and this will add to more clutterd trees with nails in them..

I also admit i look for nails to hang gear on...if there, I hang it up.

I never, never would pound nails in or bring nails in the park....silly to do so.

Will I make some...yep.

At access points big pitures with a nail and tree with a cross accross works wonders. Many people don't take the time to read rules and such of the park but a picture is a simple glance that all walks of like can understand...

An idea to push perhasp?

Cheers
Mike

opps...
"all walks of like can understand"

heh,,,,type to fast...

"all walks of life can understand"

I don't bring nails but also will use them if they are already in a tree. I have also removed nails that were not ingrown and packed them out in our garbage.

However, the alternative solution has an inherent weakness...the coathanger device is an awkward shape that would be a minor nuisance to pack based upon its dimensions in two "planes" (vertically aligned wings and the horizontal hook). What we typically do is just tie a 1/8" rope around a tree then hook a carabiner from one of our nalgenes or packs. It's strong, lightweight, stows more easily than the coathanger top and has multiple uses. Also, several items that we hang from these during a stay at a site would potentially straighten out the coathanger hook and spill the hung items on the ground (kitchen bag, for example, that is relatively heavy at the start of a trip).

A second method we often employ is to string a short rope between two trees that are somewhat close together (so it's not a thoroughfare waiting to "clothesline" someone) and then hang carabiners from that. Both of these methods would, I expect, provide a lighter weight, stronger and easier to pack solution.

Ultimately, we make our own choices but I would be in support of further information for education of backcountry users. The problem is that the individuals who could benefit the most from this information are the ones who either ignore it or are too stubborn to recognize the impact as negative enough to warrant a change in their behavior if they did take the time to read it. Simple images would provide one of the most effective methods of informing the perpetrators but I'm afraid we'll end up with a wall of simple images with diagonal lines through them that would be dizzying to look at! One for nails, one for bottles, one for open fires (burn ban), one for hatchets in a live tree, one for littering, one for life jackets, etc. etc. etc.

Its a "no brainer"

Why bring nails?
Seems so disrespectfull to me...just backwards thinking I guess?

Some rope...couple of climber clips...done!

I sheepishly admit that I use them if they are there, too. I would never bring nails into the park.
Thanks for the ideas put forth so far, though.....I'll use them. I don't like the thoughts of bringing in a hammer to remove nails, but maybe it's not a bad idea.
As is most cases, education is the key here.....

Foxco
Somewhere in the
Georgian Triangle
Ontario

I have been guilty of nails in the past bt that was back when
we could also take cans and bottles .

Sadly at the time , we always had nails ( brothers shear pin substitute)
and they were used ( not often ) but at times high in a tree for pots
or rods). Those using thos 3 - 4 " nails must be

In the past 15-20 years, I have not placed a nail into a tree
even though I still carry some. Bungy cords have been put to good use
and always leave with us as they are reused in the lashing of gear
into he 42 lb light weight canoe we rent so that but adding air matts and rods/paddles we still carry a 60 pounder but it is a single carry.


They are still the odd nail in the tackle box and they
replacing a broken bolt/rivet temporarily in pack or chair.

Perhaps I will splurge and get some thinner bolts and nuts as their replacement .

Summary
Ban all the nails... Also ban those disposable propane bottle
which could be replaced with refillable smaller ones and at the price
they would cost they would not be left behind.
They do exist and if the demand is there they will be more readily available.

Now if only we can also ban outboards except in peripheral lakesI would be a very happy camper.

But Banning Nails is a great place to start

ABR here I come

Rac n

Nails are terrible, especially the old ones that the trees have grown over.******************************************

Imho--the primary reason people (such as my self) go to wilderness areas such as Algonquin Park is to experience a few days of detachment from the day to day existence of the working world. It is the change of thought processes and patterns that refresh the mind and body.

I consider nails as a defacement of a natural wilderness area--A reminder of the link to our need for a quick and easy solution.

In place of nails--rope can be used--and removed when finished with no harm to the tree.

Many people will use the nails if they already exist (guilty as charged). I would not think of bringing nails into the Park with me to hammer into a tree to hang a pack off of. As Racoon suggested, back in the day it was not given a second thought, but back then, people used to have an ashtray on their desk at work and would think nothing of lighting up in the middle of a meeting. Those days are gone.

I don't know if my hatchet is special or not, but it has a small notch in the bottom of it that acts just like the "nail remover" half of a hammer. If there are nails in the trees on a site, I will usually use my hatchet to pull the nails from the tree and pack the nails out with me.



Sean (of Ajax)

We too have been guity in the past of using the pre existing nails. We now do as Sean does remove them and take them home with us. What is just as annoying is sitting around the camp site and staring up at yellow nylon rope that has been carelessly left behind in the trees. It is reminiscent of plastic bags in trees in the city. If you use rope, be responsible enough to remove all of it when you leave.

I've been hesitating to simply remove nails in trees .. as that leaves an open wound for fungus, insects and disease to enter into the sap-wood and beyond .. like an open invitation.

It's occurring to me that a 1" length of sharpened hardwood dowel or even a similar piece of hardwood scrap could be driven into the open wound.

If we parallel it to a wound in flesh .. in the old days, we'd sprinkle in surgical powder and wrap it tight .. now we dollop-on antibiotic cream and a "bandaid-closure". All I can come up with is that we should somehow be "closing-the-wound".

The rope-and-clip solution certaily sounds practical .. and less bothersome than my idea. Maybe there's a similar simple solution the closing the nail-wounds?

Barry Bridgeford
http://www.AlgonquinAdventures.com
http://www.ABRweb.ca

Do what people who drain sap do. After they drill a hole into the tree they hammer a small wooden stake in there. That stops the sap from leaking and protects the tree from damage from insects etc. We can do the same for nails IF we want to start pulling nails.

two words- golf tees. you can pick up a bag of a dozen or so unvarnished ones from the dollar store- bang them in and snap them off

Sean (of Ajax)

I hope your axe has a metal shaft. I used to remove nails using a pair of pliers to grasp the nail and my wooden handled axe to lever it out. I abandoned the practice after I broke my axe handle off at the head on a really sticky nail.

I use nails if they are already there but have never put one in.

I like that idea, scoutergriz.

I'm reluctant to remove nails / spikes from trees for two reasons:

--leaving the "wound" like Barry mentioned

--someone will come along after me and just pound new nails/spikes in the tree if they can't find one because I've removed them all.


We remove any nails that are below "eye-level". It's beyond my understanding why people insist on driving nails into trees at ankle-height...all I can guess is that they are doing it to secure their tent or tarp in some fashion.

And has no one learned the ability to tie a rope to a tree by use of loops and knots? Geez. Even I can do that.

I've seen some pretty big spikes in trees. Guessing that folks find them along the way and feel the desperate need to use them.

And some stuff that is way up high. So I'm guessing it's a long-time bad habit.


Barbara

Here's a pic of a tree that succumbed to a nail.

[img][/img]

I think it's a bit of a leap to conclude that tree met its demise from that nail. I would expect that the cause of it's fall was high wind or other natural forces due to the massive splintered break.

In fact, you could argue quite effectively that the tree successfully thrived for many years with that nail deeply, securely and safely tucked away in its core wood based upon the many years of growth outside of the nail.

I don't think it would be necessary to jam a foreign wood into the hole...after we tap maple trees and remove the spiles they heal up after a couple weeks they are nearly closed and after a few years there is little to no evidence of the hole at all. Kinda like pulling a barnacle off a whale...it's a pretty minute impact on a massive species. I guess that nail in the split tree might be considered historical in value depending on the age of the specimen!

Hi PA sorry I was being a bit controversial by posting that picture. I agree with you. One nail or many will most likely not kill a large tree.

I think the tree nail thing is a bit over the top in terms of killing large trees as you point out.

I would suggest that careless fires and soil compaction and the erosion that occurs just by camping are larger impacts IMHO.

In some people's minds the people that use nails are the ones who pollute, bring cans etc. That's a generalization/stereotype.

I would hazard that there are others on the forum that have pounded nails into trees or even deck screws. Or made use of plywood make shift tables etc.....I'm guilty anyone else feel free to stand up.

Taking the nails out I think is a waste of time and dangerous. Leave it there so people can use it. By taking it out someone will put another one in. Damage on the removal and damage with a new one.

The Park cuts down trees now and creates benches etc. I think this is to combat the plywood and other unauthorized furniture. Idiots who try to burn it well that is another thing.

So regardless the sites are altered by our using them. In the whole scheme of things the nails are negligible.

The real damage is the maniacs that come in have no clue and cut down live trees etc. etc.

I think the best thing is to educate people as this site does and should continue to do. I think that is the best we can hope for.

Reporting these folks and tracking them down etc. is dangerous, wasteful, and ineffective.

I know for a fact that a few human wounds hat have been treated with
balsam sap actually healed better than if modern antibiotic creams
had been used ( go figure)

Unfortunately, I see that the problem may be finding those Balsam
trees.. I wonder what about spruce sap to plug the hole ?

Maple and similiar sappy tree should self heal.. Or one could
always take some pruners sap/tar that is used for urban tree repair

Just my 2 cents worths
Rac n

There is a lot of talk on here about nails killing trees. I can see the removal of them doing that perhaps, but in some areas near the southern tip of the park I've been splitting wood and hit or see nails and shell casings deep in the tree, completely unnoticeable before the split. It's kind of neat to see, even. And these are BIG logs that lived a long time with those foreign objects embedded in them.

Personally, I have no problem with a nail ban. The only thing I hang from a tree is my Hennessey hammock or other roping uses like tarps. Why do you need to hang a pot or pan? It's just as good on whatever table contraption you're using for a kitchen, or even packed away with your hung bag/barrel for food scent reasons.

I'm impressed with the serious considerations that everyone has made on this topic.

Hi PA. Yes, my rinky-dink contraption is bulky and definitely not very strong. Your recommendation of carabiners on ropes started off a number of great alternatives to nails.

Racoon .. I'd never used bungy cords. Looking back now, there's no excuse. I just now popped out to the CT and picked up a few. Together with PA's carabiners (or S-hooks) .. what a combination that would make!

I even played around with two bungy cords and rigged them up so I could use their own built-in hooks ..



And Tomek and Scoutergriz .. your comments regarding wooden plugs and golf-tees .. great ideas!

If we can eliminate nails from campsite trees we'll be able to prevent injurious encounters with them by both campers and tree-cutting maintenance staff.

I really want to thank everyone who's participated in this thread. I'll be rewriting the ABR article on "Alternative to Nails" and will include recognition of your input.

Thanks again,



Barry Bridgeford
http://www.AlgonquinAdventures.com
http://www.ABRweb.ca

Sal,

I appreciate your acknowledgement of the "over the top" nature of the post, but it still was a cool picture. And, while it may be a generalization/stereotype of linking the nailers with litterers or tree hackers, it is quite possible that there may be a relationship between them...all of those acts represent a disregard for the campsite environment. I also agree where the real damage and risk lies is within the ill-informed cutting and hacking live trees (and other "leave a big trace" camping practices) and that the best alternative is an educational process...just where and how they get that information is the difficulty!

Barry's neighbours are wondering what the heck he's doing out in his yard now!


The problem with nails in trees is the danger they present to the humans walking near them. Maybe to animals, too, for all I know.

Once you get a nail in the ankle or thigh, you'll know what I mean.

Let's hope no one ever gets one in the eye.

Or am I the only person who stumbles around campsites in the dark, or near-darkness? Put your hand out to a tree, and get a rusty nail in the palm.

Sure, I've used the nails already in trees...if they are at a useful height.

And those "campsite kitchens", too. Destroying those tables is also an exercise in futility...I've seen a campsite where the table was rebuilt every year after being taken down. Each time it was resurrected, the culprits used fresh-cut trees and branches.



Barbara

Don't trust that cheap coghlan sierra saw hanging in the pic . The plastic breaks near the hinge and then the saw is useless and impossible to fix. Get the more expensive sandvik model at mec.

I seem to recall a number of years ago reading about "save the trees" groups (also known as "tree huggers") in British Columbia putting spikes into old growth trees to discourage loggers from cutting them down.
So far the notes on the topic seem to put more danger to the tree in removing the nail than putting it in. It would seem that public education on the topic should focus on stopping more nails from being added.
I would hope that part of the training for those clearing campsites would include where the nail zone would be. I know that when cutting trees for fire wood there is a hazard from old fences if the tree came from a farm. The likely zone is in the first 4 feet of the log. For campsites I would think the nail zone would be from 2 feet to 7 feet on the trunk. This still leaves a manageable piece that could be left uncut by the staff - a good fire side seat.
I think there are bigger fish to fry on the list of problems experienced by the park. A ban would be very difficult and intrusive to enforce.

Never did trust a saw, always took an axe.

JDL
RHON