I have been enjoying this site for a while now and thought it time to say hello and to perhaps tap your collective knowledge. I have found a wealth of knowledge in the various postings which have been helpful and fun. I started going to APP (interior) with my father 30 years ago (I guess that kind of dates me), and now I get to take my own kids to the park. Over the years I have explored much of the park but, being from Toronto, have gravitated towards the west side due to the proximity and to avoid the hwy 60 crowds.

I have been using a Swift Mattawa for the last 12 years. It has served me very well and has been the perfect size, capacity and weight for 2 people. However, now that we are up to 2 adults a 3 year and eight year old and a dog, we are pushed beyond the maximum optimum load range. We manage on weekend trips but by next year we will have outgrown the Mattawa. As I've been happy with Swift the obvious replacement is the Kipiwa (is it big enough) or the Winisk but I am open to suggestions and would like to hear what people think I should consider (ie. Souris River Wilderness 18, Langford...). Briefly, we need capacity for the above mentioned family, weight is a concern as we will be tripping and I will take peformance over stability.

Thanks for your help.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Since the kids are a bit young to share a lion share of the canoeing, going to 2 canoes is not an option at this point so we need to look at one canoe. I have the 16 1/2 foot Kipawa, although I like it very much for 2 people tripping I would seriously look at the Winsk or Souris models for 4 people, gear and dog. From what I've read, most people seem to cope with these 18 footers. That's my 2 quick cents, happy tripping!

Harry

We demo'd the Kipawa (18ft version), and I didn't like the way it tracked.
Even without a load of gear, it was hard to keep on line.
So, we tried out an Algonquin (17.5 ft), and love it. At the time, it was big enough for two adults, gear, two kids and a small dog. For 4 years, we could get everyone and everything in. In the past year or two, with two teenagers, we've needed to rent a second canoe.
As long as your kids are small, you should be able to get a lot of use out of something similar.
I must admit that I liked the size of the Kipawa given our situation at the time, but I'm still glad that we went with the Algonquin. Better tracking, and a little easier to portage.

Formerly Foxco

Southern Georgian Bay
Ontario

Drew - Honestly you're best bet is to look at a 2nd boat for overnite trips - perhaps a kayak for your wife while you take the rest in your existing vessel. Or a 2nd canoe and she can paddle the 3 yr old and u take the 8 yr old and dog, or vice versa. Your scenario is similar to ours - 2 young kids (6 and 8), wife and one of our dogs is now a seasoned trip'her (30 pd ausie sheperd). We use a large tandem 17.5 foot Clipper Tripper (customized), and I would never consider all 4 of us + dog in it. Me (200 pds) and the two kids (180 pds total) and the dog (30 pds) + gear (~200 pds) on a trip the boat is close to maximum load and you feel it. My wife takes one of the kayaks when she's along on canoe trips with us.

If buying or renting a 2nd boat is not possible, Clipper (and likely others) do make larger models - but storing and portaging such a beast may be an issue. http://www.clippercanoes.com/bigboats.php

Sorry, can't advise on the Swifts.

I agree with SM. You may be able to find a canoe that can manage your load, but for most of the recreational models you are likely to find, 4 in a canoe plus a pooch is skating on thin ice. Still, if you are looking to fit your brood into one boat, I highy recommend that whatever canoe you try, you try it loaded to the gills with the weight you expect to carry.

"Fomerly Foxco" didn't like the Kipewa without a load, but an empty boat is no measure of any canoe's design capacity. We love our Winisk. When asked about it, I have often said, "It is like having four wheel drive; it will take you places you shouldn't go." We have been to the Bustard Islands nearly a dozen times, and elsewhere on Georgian Bay in waves that left us breathless at our stupidity. What were we thinking?" The only time we ever overturned in a Winisk was when it was empty.

When it comes to the safety of your family and the investment involved (no matter what anyone recommends here) it behooves you to try the boat out yourself, on the water, with a load as close to what you will carry as you can manage.

-Mark

Mark and Louise in their Winisk, enjoying a calm passage home from the Bustards.

Algonquin 15'
Mattawa 15'8"
Algonquin 16'
Prospector 16'
Kipawa 16'6"
Algonquin 17'
Winisk 17'6"
Temagami 17'6"

Sorry no 18' Kipawa, must have been an older Quetico?

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=571

Hey Andrew you may want to look at the Bell Northwind too. I have a family that consists of two kids and dogs too.. so we went through a growing period where the boat was truly loaded down.. the Bell Northwind fit the bill perfectly for us. Super light, Durable, Fast and a nice boat to paddle. Only down side I would say is it's going to have a lot more freeboard than your Mattawa. Something you're probably looking for with larger loads anyway though.

Anyway check it out online at: http://www.bellcanoe.com/products/default.asp?page=product&id=587&catid=193



I'm placing our Bell Canoe preseason order this week with delivery in the spring. I can get you a special AA price on one of these, custom direct from the factory if you would like.

My family has now grown up more and my son (17) and daughter (14) paddle bow in our two 16'6' canoes... Kipawa's of coarse.

You'd be suprised how much that extra foot in a Kip or foot and a half in a Northwind will do for you. and with the new lighter weights by Bell and Swift there's no reason to stay in a smaller boat. Longer ones track better, ride the waves better and are just down right faster.

If you want a free test paddle on any of these just give me a shout, we have used rentals too if $2000+ is out of your price range.

Randy Mitson
AO Huntsville
http://www.aohuntsville.com
http://www.algonquinoutfitters.com
randym@algonquinoutfitters.com

Thanks for all of your responses, they have been very helpful in distilling my thoughts.

I am now leaning towards the idea of using 2 canoes in the long run. This means I can stay away from something too big, the idea of banging it into everything in a portage was scaring me. Maybe a Kipawa (I haven't heard a bad thing about those boats!) or Northwind to compliment the Mattawa. As I see it, for the next year or 2 we can all fit into a Kip sized canoe as we most likely won't be doing anything extreme with a our youngest along for the ride. By the time we are able to make extended trips into the backcountry my current 8 year old will be old enough to paddle effectively with her mom and I can "solo" in the Matt with our youngest.

Thanks for the input,

Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

In addition to what I mentioned before, I have gone on trips where I had to take my Kipawa and a Necky rec kayak that I own to handle a group of three and gear. My friends will usually take the canoe and I'll paddle the kayak with the bulk of my gear going in the canoe (I can put some small bags in the kayak hatch but there's still alot to put in the canoe). Like one of the previous bloggers suggested this may be an option although a kayak portages differently. Some of my previous trips have used cart trails where I'll put the canoe on the cart first and strap the kayak on top of the canoe afterwards and I still have a little leeway to put a pack in the carted canoe as well. More food for thought!

Harry

My choice at the time, and I still love it, was a Swift Temagami. Our first family trip was 2 adults, 3 kids, and a German Short Haired Pointer for 3 days in Frontenac. The canoe was comfortably loaded at that time, but we did have to leave the sleeping pads behind because of the bulk. The next year we took 2 canoes starting from Kioshkokwi and camping on Mink. The 2nd canoe that year was a fairly small 14' fibreglass.

There's a picture of the fully loaded canoe from that Frontenac trip here:

http://www.loonislandoutdoors.com/TripReports/FrontenacTripReport/FrontenacDayThree.htm

It's not a perfect shot for you since the dock gets in the way.

___________________________
No your other left!
www.loonislandoutdoors.com

depending on the age of your children, for what it is worth, imho, you might seriously consider a Temagami 17'6". i have seen a family (2 adults / 2 young children and gear) trip well for a 7+ day trip. mind you as they grew the family went to a temagami with a kipawa. all the best and happy paddling. cheers, scott

For what it's worth, I don't know that I'd consider the Kipawa with children. I think I'd go with something like a Prospector only because for those who aren't used to it, the kip may appear "tippy". At least that's what patrons in my kip always say.

Hi Andrew, since I own one. I agree with the folks suggesting the Swift Temagami.

I am also selling it since I rarely use it due to the fact that I have a kayak and a Mattawa. Give me a shout if you are interested.

Sorry, that last post (Anonymous) was mine

Check out Souris River canoes. They are the only ones who use an epoxy resin lay up and is much stronger. They seem like a reputable company from my research. Here is some good links if you are interested.

http://www.paddling.net
http://redrockstore.com/
http://www.sourisriver.com/