I didn't want to further hijack SM's great trip report and photo thread so I started an alternate post. For the record, I trip with my kids too so I'm not some old childless fuddy duddy bent on ruining other peoples "fun".

Whether it's in a national park in the US where feeding the animals is strictly forbidden and occasionally includes graphic photographs of mangled hands caused by squirrels and chipmunks, or in Pennsylvania state forests in my "back yard" with the same rules and recommendations or in the Algonquin Interior with identical rules, we choose to follow the rules.

When we were in the interior with the kids a few years ago there were brazen chipmunks at our campsite on Burntroot Lake. Instead of feeding them we took the opportunity to explain to our children that the reason they didn't seem so wild is because other campers before us chose to break the rules. We then explained to them the potential problems associated with that which include their potential dependency on humans for food and the loss of their natural ability to forage which could cause them to suffer a long and painful death during the lean winter months. Those same rodents tore holes in our food pack while we were out day tripping on this busy lake.

To quote the official Algonquin Park Website, "Keep wildlife wild. Do not approach or feed any wild animals."

To quote the U.S. National Park Service, "There are other serious hazards associated with wildlife. Numerous species, including rodents, squirrels, coyotes, fox, bats, and mountain lions, may carry infectious diseases such as Hantavirus, rabies, or plague. In some situations, these diseases may be transmitted through simple contact, such as touching or feeding wildlife. In recent years, Hantavirus, rabies and plague all have been documented in the parks wildlife populations."

I don't know about you folks, but my first aid kit doesn't include appropriate treatment regimens for hantavirus, rabies or plague (the diagnostic testing equipment would probably require quadruple carrying portages!). And sure, the risk is small - probably minuscule. But the rules are clear. What other rules should we turn a blind eye to and simultaneously teach the next generation how to disregard? The can and bottle ban? Fire bans? What are your thoughts on the matter? Should we blur the lines and let some mild disregard of the rules go or should we respect them while in Algonquin? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each approach?

PaPaddler

Correction, it was Burnt Island Lake, not Burntroot where we ran into the brazen rodents.

PaPaddler

Thanks "PA"

First, I'll repeat some comments I made in the pre-mentioned thread ...

Sorry to be the bearer of what appears to be an unpopular position with some, but after making my critical posting in the other thread, I happened to get a call from park management regarding ABR business. In the course of the conversation, I was informed that getting some campers to refrain from feeding the wildlife was a serious problem for park management.

Whether one's perspective is to "Reduce Our Impact", "Leave No Trace" or simply be looking out for the welfare of animals and campers alike .. it's in everyone best interest to not feed the wildlife.

Trust me, soft and mushy sentimentality doesn't cut it, unless its balanced with education and responsible practices. As campers in Algonquin we all have a responsibility to conduct ourselves with the best interests of the park in mind. Wildlife observation and nature study are amongst the reasons Algonquin's waterways, portages and campsites are maintained, specially for children .. but certainly not to be some kind of "petting zoo".

Second, I'll share an excerpt from an email I recently sent ...

I'm in a balancing act between being the facilitator for an online exchange of Algonquin Park info (why I started AA in the first place) and being a leading exec in the ABR (which grew out of realization of the serious challenges facing the recreational backcountry of Algonquin. It's only because I care for the maintenance and improvement of the "wilderness-like experiences" we value Algonquin for, that I've become so heavily involved in advocacy and advisory duties concerning Algonquin.

So between nurturing the AA website and forum experiences, I have to also promote the ABR objectives. I can't manage these two functions in isolation from each other. In order to sustain the integrity of both, I have to keep both in view of each other .. representing both together.

I'm very appreciative of "PA"'s expanded explanations of the need for the rules. And, I very much appreciate Stephen Molson's sharing of his family trip on the forum, plus a number of Portage Campsite Project submissions that he's just emailed in. Its people like them who share so much with us and help fulfill the intertwined objectives of both AA and the ABR.

Barry Bridgeford
http://www.AlgonquinAdventures.com
http://www.ABRweb.ca .. Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists - Caring for Algonquin's Backcountry

I'm pretty sure by now Stephen probably wishes he had never posted the trip report! However, I enjoyed it and am sure many of us did. I hope he continues to post because his pictures are awesome.

I just wanted to share a personal experience. We live in the country. A few years ago we had a cute little chippie that was very friendly and we started to feed him. Within a few weeks, there were several more. Within a month, we were over run with the rodents. They became so bad we had to start trapping and relocating them. In total, what started out as one cute little guy quickly escaleted to several dozen being relocated! All this to say, human behaviour does indeed affect wildlife and can contribute to their demise.

Sadly too many people misinterpret the rules to suit their own objectives or ignore the rules as they wave off the reason the "offending" rule was created in the first place. In a perfect world there would be no need for rule of law let alone simple guidelines (please note: this is NOT a perfect world). One person is the same thing as 10,000 people saying "well, I am just one person". PaPaddler stated that US parks post pictures of mangled campers hands. Unfortunately some individuals require the graphic evidence for them to realize the reason a guideline/rule/law is created. The squirrels were acclimated before I got there is a weak argument at best. Lets hope the squirrels choose to stash away some of that easily gathered food that is prepped and processed for human consumption (sugars/sodium/chemicals).

Here where I live the local birding society warns homeowners from time to time about feeders. If you plan to move one should stop feeding the birds in your backyard in spring otherwise you will relegate many of them to death from starvation come winter as you become the sole source of food. Imagine a "wild" squirrel on a busy campsite that is free fed by campers all season....

I suspect a few will now stop posting of their wildlife feeding habits but that is not to say they will stop feeding the wildlife. Lets hope the feeding is limited to the smaller and least dangerous surplus creatures.

Am I a party pooper? No, I care for the health and well being of animals in the wild. Free from the damaging influences of humans (as much as that is possible). The wild places are coming up on the short end of the stick and are grasping to keep ahold. Do we really need to kick that up a knotch?

Leaves one wondering WHO gets to pick what rules are followed and which are not? I want to be on THAT committee!

Derek Specht
http://www.ABRweb.ca .. Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists - Caring for Algonquin's Backcountry

Hey PaPaddler,

Thanks for the link re: AP Website - it's funny but I don't recollect ever reading or being informed by AP staff about feeding of the wildlife - its not printed anywhere in my copy of the AP CRMap, on any of the permits you sign, emails I've received (Confirmation of booking), or in any documents I've read at the Permit office. It's not something I do anyway - run around with huge bags of cashews leaving piles of food caches for them, or dance around thru the forest drapping myself in the local wildlife, however pleasant that may sound, lol. I'm a HUGE animal lover though, and have a soft spot for the very friendly chippies and the odd whiskeyjack should they show up and the kids are present. To give some perspective over the last two years I've spent roughly 90 nites in AP, and have provided handouts to chippies on two occasions (campsites) only, and each time the kids have been with me -it's not a coincidence. However if you want to use me as a poster boy/target representing all those who committed this infraction in the past, go ahead.

There was a thread in this forum about park rules and which one(s) you have or would break or something along those lines earlier this year I think, so this has been discussed before. Personally I don't believe that everything is black or white, there are always exceptions and that includes the regulations or rules. In situations where personal (you or your group's) safety is involved, the rules can and should be 'broken'. In the case of being wind bound on a lake for a day, with 50 km/hr headwinds I'm not leaving my campsite at the risk of my group's safety and traveling 5 km up a lake because my permit states I have to be on Lake X on Nite Y. I'm staying another nite where I am. In cases where you're booked on Lake X you find all the campsites are taken. I won't butt-in on someone else's site but instead find a suitable non-designated site and make do. I don't get angry or flustered over it, you just adapt to the situation and do what you have to do.


I don't think that the cause of the squirrels/chippies/mice to not seem wild at campsites is due to people feeding them purposely (e.g. from their hands). It's likely they initially loose their fear because humans:

1) are not their predators when camping (e.g. dont give chase and eat them)
2) have poor food management: sloppy and drop their energy-rich food around the campsite
3) carry lots of fragrant food rodents love to eat (granola/nuts/rice/bread/peanut butter/cookies/etc)
4) Large volume of humans visit certain 'Grade A' sites every year (e.g  the nice sandy beach ones).

I don't believe it requires humans to actively put food in their hands and 'call' the rodents over before rodents become a problem at a site and start tearing through packs. It's the amount of food waste people leave behind and their overall food management/storing methods such as dumping meal leftovers in the bushes/firepit/kitchen area, inadvertently spilling/dropping food while eating, leaving dirty dishes out, etc is the far worst culprit in creating problem rodents then hand feeding or actively tossing food at them.

Medical issues:
To my knowledge there is as much or more chance of contracting the Hantavirus from inhaling and blowing on your firepit's glowing embers then there is in even French kissing a chipmunk, lol. Not that I'd be advising anyone in doing that. Most people who contract this virus inhalate in the lungs from infected mouse and other rodent droppings; whether it's in your own home or campsite, the risk is there. Mice are big vectors in infected areas and they looooooove firepits and drop their little tiny rice shaped feces everywhere in their search for food (including firepits for leftovers). The hantavirus shows no symptoms for at least 2 weeks (up to 4) so chances are if you're infected you won't know til long after your back home where proper medical care is available. I'm more concerned with scrapes/cuts the kids (or myself) may get when camping as any skin break is a potential threat to general infection from a foreign body ; so I carry the necessary items for first aid treatment accordingly (for hard to find items: Chinook medical gear). Also, renew your first aid - take the 2 day First Aid Course (e.g. St. Johns First Aid ), or better yet, the more comprehensive Wilderness First Aid - offered in proximity to many major cities at least 2-4 times / year.   I don't handle snakes or turtles due to the salmonella and other bacteria risks they carry.

As for rabies, there has never been a case of rabies in a chipmunk (or squirrel/mice) in North America. There have been no cases of plague infected animals or a human contracting the plague from a wild animal, in Canada either. I understand that in the southern and western US it's a different situation though.

Stephen,

Up until now I've been a fan of yours. Who wouldn't want their kids to experience the wild life of Algonquin or their own backyard? However, your recent post blew your credibility in my opinion. To make a statement like "Thanks for the link re: AP Website - it's funny but I don't recollect ever reading or being informed by AP staff about feeding of the wildlife - its not printed anywhere in my copy of the AP CRMap, on any of the permits you sign, emails I've received (Confirmation of booking), or in any documents I've read at the Permit office" is just plain stupid! Would you allow your kids to feed bears or wolves? It's ironic what people will say or do when they are trying to protect or validate the reason for the fruits of their loins!

You messed up and posted it publically, own up to it, learn, and let's all move on!

Michael

Hey Michael,

I only posted that in reference to feeding the chippies - I didn't feel I had to mention the obvious to not feed the mammals you identified. That's the issue with all text based forums, too much reading into things, assumptions and miscommunications.

I support the rules and actively teach them to my children. I'm all about rules, I'm a lawyer, rules are my life. I must say that if someone believes that 'keeping the wildlife wild' means not touching frogs, snakes or turtles, my children would stop coming to the Park. I don't believe that phrase is meant to discourage my sons from appreciating the wonders of bull frogs, snakes, turtles, etc. I also must wonder whether the Park staff's interpretation of the rules are as hardlined as some AA posters. This summer I put in at Opeongo, Canoe Lake and Tim R. In each of these situations my children accompanied me to purchase our permit and asked why the Park staff weren't following the rules when they first pointed out the hummingbirds everywhere and then the hummingbird feeders and bird seed feeders at each of these Park managed locations. These mixed messages make it difficult to be consistent with children and undermines their respect for the Park's rules. There was recently an article in the Ottawa Citizen which referenced AP staff dragging a moose carcass, presumably killed by a car but the article didn't say, to feed the wolves and the owls. It apparently took place near a location where a conference was happening and pictures were taken.
I believe this forum attracts some of the most fervent Algonquin Park advocates anywhere, hence this discussion.
'Tsk tsking' a poster like SM who has likely spent several dozen nights in the park this season, made many valuable contributions of knowledge/experience through trip logs and site accessibility info, for letting his child feed a chipmunk, strikes me as a tad small and counterproductive.

my 2 cents

All the rules ( feeding and multiple other interior rules)
stated or that exist make sense and should obviously be followed
but sadly its on a volunteer basis

Thankfully we don't have elephants , corbras and lions
waiting patiently for the next human offered treat ( perhaps a leg or arm) !

Only wish the garbage rule was enforced more ( pack it in
then pack it out).Scanners( like at airports)at point of entry
would be nice to have ( so why can't I dream n techniclour )
in order to see and find the culprits.

Raton Laveur
aka


*Rac n*

Stephen,

Here's the actual link to the park's web page where I pulled that quotation from...

http://www.algonquinpark.on.ca/managreg.html

I completely understand and respect your perspective and your extensive experience traveling Algonquin - it far outweighs the time I've spent in the park over the past three decades! I apologize if you feel I'm making you a poster boy/target as it is not my intention. In fact, I felt bad that your photo log/post was getting over-run with this banter and that's why I started this thread. I also recall the thread you are referring to regarding the park rules and, to be honest, if we were to take the time to go back through the years worth of posts in the forum history there are probably very few topics that have not been covered but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address these issues as they appear.

I agree that the one rule I would break without hesitation would be not following my itinerary on my permit when due to safety or travel conditions. I would expect that most park rangers would allow you to "slide" in this regard but I would be willing to pay the fine if they insisted...I'd just let them know I don't appreciate it based on the circumstances!

I don't know what I'd do if I got to a lake with a reserved site and none were available. I guess if it's a small enough lake with only a few sites I might drop in on the occupied sites to compare permits or inquire if it would be OK to join a smaller group on a site. If I were in a big group with two or three tents I would certainly check in on each site, as the impact we would have by camping in a non-designated site would be somewhat heavy. Another option would be to travel to a neighboring lake if it were in close proximity and time allowed. If it were just the two of us with our hammocks I probably wouldn't sweat it - we would have a stove to cook on and could literally leave virtually no trace of our camping for a single night.

I would also agree with you that the cause of rodents losing their wild nature at certain campsites could be due to some of the factors that you identified. It could also be the cause of luring other larger animals to frequent campsites if they become known as reliable resources for sweet smelling food. I don't know that I'd agree that food waste, storage and management on a campsite would be a far worse culprit in creating problem rodents compared to hand feeding or tossing them food. I think the latter would cause them to associate human occupation of the site with food and reinforce their boldness when campers and their gear are present.

Finally, I agree that the likelihood of contracting those mentioned illnesses is pretty darned miniscule but I would also venture to say it's likely that there is a higher chance of contracting the hantavirus if you are handling those cute little carriers. I expect that there are trace amounts of both urine and feces on the average rodents fur and/or paws and having them in direct contact with your skin has got to increase your risk. Realistically, the risk of lightning strike is still probably exponentially higher, so let's keep it all in perspective!

I'll be back in the park next May for a five day trip...perhaps our paths will cross and we can bury the hatchet over this issue with a cocktail and a laugh!

Oh yeah, another great example of learning on this site...I didn't realize that snakes were such a common carrier of salmonella virus! It's not like I'm a snake charmer handling them daily but I'll be sure to thoroughly wash after handling any in the future.

I think all that needs to be said has been said. And on that note I ask that this thread be locked.

Thanks,
Aaron

"PA", Stephen and myself have been emailing back and forth over the past few hours. I'm impressed that we are now all on the same page over this issue. I believe the request by Aaron to lock this thread is both appropriate and timely. So, thanks to everyone who's participated in this thread. Despite its uncertain beginning, it has proven to be a learning and strengthening experience.

Looking forward to many, many more discussions from all involved ...

Barry Bridgeford
http://www.AlgonquinAdventures.com
http://www.ABRweb.ca .. Algonquin Backcountry Recreationalists - Caring for Algonquin's Backcountry