Was going to open the caseback of my...October 24 2011 at 12:13 AM
Aurelio S. (Login AurelioS)
from IP address 220.127.116.11
Fiddy, but then I saw this:
Seriously, good conversations coming around - me likey
One thing I find curious - why wouldn't Panerai "standardize" all 111-style watches (ie. 318, 41x, 005, etc) across the board? I would think it would be more just plain simpler to use
the same movement over and over - which would translate into being more cost-effective for their P&L. Agree with Eddie; not a deal-breaker, but would be happier with a decorated
squirrel cage inside.
Meh... if I was a movement snob, then Charles wouldn't have anyone to poke fun at
That's how we roll...
(Premier Login Kingsholm14)
High Heid Yin
Funny post A. Xxx nt
|October 24 2011, 12:34 AM |
|October 24 2011, 12:40 AM |
Fake...$20 piece...I'll pay you a 100 for it ;)
|October 24 2011, 4:32 AM |
Hope you are well you sly dog!
cheap rubbish movements in Panerai watches
|October 24 2011, 5:44 AM |
I just hope Panerai stop ripping folk off by putting cheap movements in some of their
products- hopefully someone from Panerai will see sense and force change
(Select Login wilmsenm)
High Heid Yin
You've made your point David
|October 24 2011, 7:36 AM |
No offense, but no need to keep repeating yourself. Yes there are cheap watches in expensive watches. Big surprise. But not really unless you haven't been interested in watches for more than a week. Granted, not a great job by Panerai re the unfinished movement but guess what... Would all the 360 owners have said "no thanks" if that same unfinished movement was used in the 360? Think again. You can't always put a price on value and there usually is no such thing as true value for money when it comes to luxury products such as high end wristwatches.
PS that I disagree with you doesn't mean anything other than that. I just disagree, not trying to offend, start a fight or whatever.
|October 24 2011, 8:42 AM |
more of this community expecting the people at Panerai to have as much passion as we do for their brand. I do find it troubling that they used such a plain movement for an expensive watch(relative to the finsh on the movement) However when everyone says if they just spent an extra 100 dollars they could have dressed up the movement, maybe they felt why dress up such a simple movement? I think they should have shown a little more respect for the fans of the brand and gone the extra mile. If you are concerned about the movement then stick to exhibition casebacks, is the message that i am getting from Panerai. Just my humble opinion.-MIKE
|October 24 2011, 9:01 AM |
Taking into account the current drought/starvation in Somalia, the wars in the middle east etc
I feel there are greater concerns in the world than a cheap ETA movement so would never wish to
have an argument about it- so no worries Martin.
It's true there's more to the whole picture than just the movement of a watch
so if Panerai can persuade folk to part with $5000 for a watch with a $90 movement
-well- fair play to them.....
Ps. keep up the great photography...
(Select Login wilmsenm)
High Heid Yin
|October 24 2011, 11:27 AM |
You're taking it well and I really appreciate that! It's not easy to give an opinion because many here think you want to fight them simply because you disagree. In our case that's obviously not the case at all. BTW I meant to write "cheap movements in expensive watches" if that wasn't clear. And, yes Panerai and many other brands make people part with eg 5k for something with a much lower intrinsic value. Of course they do. People also pay a few thousand for a PAV strap, 100k plus for a vintage piece and so on. I won't bore you with a few hundred other examples
Value and price are not always directly linked or easy to explain. We're all a bit nuts anyway or why else would we be buying stuff we don't need and expressing our opinions on watch boards... That's crazy enough as it is, passion makes grown men behave the way we do
(Premier Login Kingsholm14)
High Heid Yin
Excellent rational Martin. At best even tattoed the movement is no Rolex but an
|October 24 2011, 12:58 PM |
I gotta humbly disagree with you on this one >>>
|October 24 2011, 3:49 PM |
True, initially I was indifferent knowing that what was in the case was a workhorse manual ETA movement.
But after some thought, we're talking about Richemont of today where Panerai is considered part of their luxury brand.
So the Swatch Group owns ETA (and of course we know why premium manufacturers are going in-house). Given your rationale, I would expect what is in the case of a Breguet, Blanpain, or GO is the same exact caliber as a Tissot or Swatch.
Hey, I agree the pricepoint of the 318 is low (relative to other Panerai models). If popping a movement untouched straight from ETA into a $4K piece is acceptable and what pricepoint do you expect some consideration with the movement? Doesn't the regular production bases have movements that are pampered in some way (e.g swan neck reg., pearlage, etc.)?
ETA pumps out these standard movements unfinished so that the end-user manufacturer finishes them in accordance to their standards. Seems to me, those standards are pretty low then at Richemont. I own watches from micro-brands that use similar ETA movement but have better finishes and robust regulation but cost a lot less. I understand there is a premium that has to be paid to buy a Panerai since it is a luxury good. But you'd think Richemont would at least put on some make-up before (censored) you in the rear.
Sorry if my thoughts are a bit scattered.
They don't have to persuade anyone, the second hand market is clear...
|October 24 2011, 3:52 PM |
I know it's hard for you to understand but a movement isn't everything and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.
I recently bought a JLC which cost double the price of most of my pams, but rightfully so right? Because of the higher quality build grade of the movement. When I got it I loved the look but it simply felt much too delicate and on it went. I'll stick with my robust base ETAs and simple Pams from now on
Hahaha ripping people off? Come on David....
|October 24 2011, 3:10 PM |
Panerai watches hold their value better than just about any other brand out there for the most part, better than Rolex even. Will that last? Who knows but it has been the trend for many years.
Panerai has always outsourced inexpensive yet robust movements to be fitted into their unique, simple and historically rich watches. In the past few years we have seen inhouse pieces start to roll out and I think that's great, it's progression of the brand and shows their commitment and versatility in the market. I saw more people post "their first Panerai" with the 312 than ever before so that shows the inhouse pieces are a success, but what led up to that success? Why do people pay more for a 201a than most spend on a car? Because with Panerai the value was never in their movements, now maybe that will change, but I think this is being blown way out of proportion.
Weather the 6497 movement is decorated or not it's still the same 6497. So if you aren't happy with it you shouldn't be either way. However there is a reason that there are Panerais housing this movements are the moat sought after and some of the most expenisive pieces and it's clear that 'value' doesn't lie in the movement.
I agree and have made my point clear that sure decorating a movement is a nice touch, but regardless it's the same movement so why would it matter especially to a movement that's covered up? The point is that it shouldn't because we've determined the value doesn't lie in the movement anyway for Panerai. It's their design and history and the second hand market has been very clear on this.
Sorry, but I have to disagree-
|October 24 2011, 7:31 PM |
Firstly, a steel sports Rolex holds it's value better than most Panerai's......
obviously the limited edition Panerai's are different but in general a steel
Rolex Submariner would be a better buy to hold it's value than a Panerai in the same price bracket -fact.
If you are happy buying a Panerai with a $100 movement for $4000 because of the brands history etc
that's fine- but for me seeing endless advertising showing a 1940's military frogman emerging
from the sea is not enough to persuade me to purchase a cheap ETA movement at top whack prices.
Ferrari have the greatest history in motor racing- they could advertise with images of their classic
wins at Le Mans in the 1960's etc etc etc but if their current cars for sale were basic crap under the bonnet would this be justified because you were buying into their 'history'?
The Panerai brand was bought by the Richemont group solely because they saw the marketing potential
of it's military history.....and it looks like they are doing a good job.
Don't get me wrong,the watches look great and I have owned many Panerai watches over the years....
but I won't be buying any in the future-they can rob someone else.
As someone who has much experience in selling Rolex that's not true...
|October 24 2011, 7:50 PM |
Steel Rolex models sell for about half. You're right the Rolex sub is one that sells a little more than half the retail price but if we are picking and choosing there are many Panerai models that sell for over retail so that gets rid of that "fact" in itself.
If that's how you feel than I believe you are into the wrong brand and on the wrong forum because not only do I think a Panerai with a $100 movement is worth $4k so does the free market, which I might add is the same market that has decided another Panerai with $100 movement is worth $40-$70k(5218-201a/202a/203a etc).
This is why your comparisons have validity because the market continues to show you're wrong. It may be your strong opinion but again you're just wrong it's simple as that because for every person who thinks like you there are obviously plenty of people lined up to buy the watch and will pay good money to have it.
If you don't like Panerai anymore and your only intent is to attack them than why do you even bother posting here? Perhaps you go post on a watch snob forum where you think you know it all because you know a few movement specs and look down upon ETA movements, that's the definition of a watch snob and that's part of what makes Panerai so awesome because it's collectors aren't like that. Panerai also has one thing all the other brands don't and that is mass enthusiasm and I can tell you what you can't buy that nor does it come from some fancy shmancy movement. The enthusiasm for even a popular brand like Rolex is mainly hollow aside from the vintage collectors, which obviously don't care about "the best parts" or they wouldn't pay a premium for outdated movements and dials. I see exactly where they are coming from and I honestly see where you're coming from but what makes you wrong is that you're comparing Panerai to other luxury brands where the movement is the key ingredient to it's price and what makes it special and with Panerai that's just not the case.
OK, OK, I'll bail out at this point-
|October 24 2011, 8:09 PM |
It appears you are too set in your ways and bigoted to have a rational view so I'll leave you to it-
let's hope Swatch keep producing those movements for you.
You keep proving my point for me David, but I guess I'm "bigoted" because I pointed out...
|October 24 2011, 8:55 PM |
THE FACTS. You're entitled to your opinion but just know there are many others who don't share that opinion and the luxury market has made up its mind and that's all the proof I need.
Let's hope one of your precious and 'superior' brands will one day build up enough enthusiasm to have a community and platform like this so that you don't have to come here with your negative opinions and snobbery.
|October 24 2011, 9:21 PM |
I don't believe that pointing out it's stupid paying 5k for a watch with a $70 movement
is in any way being a 'snob'- it's called 'common sense'.
I'm fully aware that you are part of a large community with a big enthusiasm for the
Panerai brand - but if that equates to being happily fleeced by Richemont I don't
know whether your brand loyalty is a positive thing (except for Richemont's profit's)
David do I have to spell it out for you? It's really simple in fact...
|October 24 2011, 11:01 PM |
The watch in question is the Panerai Pam 318 housing an ETA 6497 movement like many other popular model Panerais and if I may add some of the most historically accurate. The 150 people who purchased this watch could've purchased one of your 'superior' brands but since you brought it up lets say 3 years ago they bought a Rolex Submariner in steel instead they wouldve lost close to 40% of thier so called(by you) sounder purchase. Whereas purchasing the 318 put them at no loss and in some cases depending on condition a gain of 10-15% on thier purchase. So may I ask how that relates to your common sense?
It seems you're not even just questioning the non decoration but the 6497 movement in general that is also used in Panerai watches that people pay $20k-$60k for and seem to continue to rise. So saying that we are being "fleeced" when our purchases show to be sounder from an investment standpoint and bring us all the happiness(and perhaps more) of your 'superior' watches.
You dont get it, plain and simple. Continuing to put me down and the many many others here who pay $5k for a $150, $100, $70(or whatever price you finally settle on)movement isn't going to change my mind and I think is pretty offensive. Perhaps you should bring it to another general watch forum where you can continue to revel in your watch snobbery and contempt for Panerai.
I almost think it's jealousy Im sensing in your posts. You just can't understand why I watch with such a simple and cheap movement could hold a better value than others....
So much more than just a fleecing
I'm very sorry-
|October 25 2011, 12:01 AM |
but did I not state that the Rolex Submariner was a better buy in general for holding value
-apart from the Panerai limited editions?
and now you use the Pam 318 special edition of 150 units as an example of Panerai's being better at holding
Even with their low grade cheap movements the Pam 318 is obviously going to hold their value better
because there's only 150 of them- compared to thousands of Submariners.
Further to this, I'm sorry if I have caused you any offence -this was not my intention
and if you are happy (buying 5k watches with $70 movements)then that's all that matters really
and I wish you all the best...........