That rule is the one that bars new or BNIB Panerais. It's obvious when a new model such as the 372 is described as "unworn," the seller really means "new." I know we can get wrapped around the axel about the definition of "new;" for instance, the mythical safe queen 9A that has never seen a wrist can be in "as new" condition, but not be new in the sense of having just been purchased. But when we're talking about a 372 or some other recent model that has never been worn, I think it's safe to call it "new" in the traditional sense of that word.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the no-new-watches restriction is, but it's apparent the restriction is not consistently enforced. Without knowing more about the reasons behind the rule, I'm in favor of doing away with it. I don't think the mods should have to police the Collector's Market looking for semantical twists in watch descriptions.

However, if the Mods insist on keeping the rule, PLEASE do me a favor and replace the word "infer" with the word "imply."

End of rant. Now I have to get ready to watch the Giants kick some Patriot butt.

Kirk

and involved discussions on this topic and the end result is that there too many people say the watch they had for sale was 'new' when it obviously was not. By definition, only a Panerai Dealer may sell a 'new' Panerai. Once someone has purchased the watch it becomes 'preowned'.

You may say your watch is 100%, mint, never worn, pristine but not 'new, BNIB (bought new in box - I never understood this one, of course it was new in the box at some point), or..............

The people who flip watches are those who benefit the most from any term that implies the watch they are sell is new and, as a forum policy, do not like flippers.

I think the Patriots are going to win. But then I live were the Lions purr.

"Brand New In Box" Panerai is from a boutique or an AD.

Hence we do not allow watches to be presented as such.

Panerai has taken legal action to prevent unauthorized sellers from representing watches as though they were being sold new.

In Paneristi.com's efforts to avoid being a party to this type of misrepresentation we have instituted this rule.

... The way that someone else describes their watch affects you personally Kirk?

I mean sure it's annoying to have flippers drive up value but I dont follow why it bugs you so much as an individual how the use descriptive words.

The crime is not listing a new or BNIB Panerai on the Collector's Market, the crime is using the word "new" or the abbreviation "BNIB" or "alternative wording" to describe the new or BNIB Panerai. That is not what I inferred from the 1 Feb 2011 rule. But now I think I understand.

By the way: what "bugs" me is when some stranger can presume to know what bugs me.

Kirk

"but it's apparent the restriction is not consistently enforced." and that goes for some other rules as well here when it comes deleting posts and fixing posts by certain posters.

We close the trading forums !

Would that be better ?


Don't think it's not possible the question has been discussed with mixed feelings ! It sure would make moderating easier !!!

Here's the reality , the mods are volunteers , they take time away from their family , work , their own enjoyments outside this site to try to do the best they can , they pay for the site and all the costs , for all the forums , most neglect family work health etc etc so they can be a part of a passionate group that try to do the BEST they can , no one is paid , heck most of the time we dont even get to post and enjoy the forum cause were too busy doing admin , do u have any idea how many mails get sent to the mods ?

We all do our best , with such a HUGE member base now we can't be at all places 24/7 , so yes things get missed not by intent be sure , the last thing any of us want to do with whatever spare time we get is to go and police the sales forum , do u think that's any FUN ? At times trying to tell people things they dont want to heat , Some of those who break the rules knowingly or not or bend them are not so easy to reason with and it's mails after mails trying to be helpful as stella as we can whenever we can , what more can anyone expect !

How do you think it feels to really try and give all u can and for years and years and years when someone just dismisses ur effort in a couple of lines with a post like yours ? It hurts that's how it feels

Surely in life we all at times give and for whatever reason it just doesn't turn out the way we hoped ? It's no different here !

But we try , a lot of thanks we get ? Not so much , still if ur not part of the solution then your part of the problem Kirk and I have been mates for a LONG time and his point is valid , it always is but the reasoning behind is just as valid and as posted above , it's a legal issue , u think we like some of the rules ? It's NOT a perfect world and that's just that , we do what we can when we can and all for free to benefit the Risti and provide as SAFE a trading forums as we can , sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations 24/7 but if u stay around awhile maybe u can see some of the good the mods do as well , heck why not even make a post to say thanks for the good stuff !

We don't get paid , we do our best , but still it's not enough for you , BUGGER

So if your really unhappy about the rules (some of which we have no choice) and think that we don't do a good job as far as consistency goes (knowing that it's the best we a small group can do 24/7) then why not we just close them ? Sure would make the mods life a little easier as 90% of the stuff we have to deal with is sales forums related , honestly it's no fun , sorry it's not up to your standards , we will all try harder !

I think we offer a pretty good venue for mates to sell trade and swap safely , without these forums where would you go to sell your straps and grails ? The bay ? Whilst it might not be perfect 24/7 it's pretty bloody good imho fwiw and yes ur mileage will vary !

As far as deleting posts and fixing posts I can only speak for myself but surely if it happens there just might be another side to the equation that your not aware of , is possible right , how about giving the mods the benefit of the doubt , as god is my witness they try so hard to please all and make a safe haven for mates to trade !

And a fun place we can all share our Passion

Throwing stones doesn't help , hang around for a few years and I'm sure you will see allot of GR8 things that come from our community


.

So much MORE than just a Watch

What Watch ,, it's the M8TES behind my brand that I LOVE ,, the Watch is just the GPS

A decade on ,, I COPY it now ,, More than EVER b4 >> it's a PANERAI behind every Panerai is a PANERISTI

And dat , SIMPLY blows me away ,, U Bet....................... BBQ Drew RIP

Feel the Passion ,, Respect the DNA ,, Cheers Beers ,,, Hoo Roo Hammer

Neighbour who drops their kid off at my pool and reminds me to watch their kid who can't swim very well !

I'll provide the pool, the water, maybe even a treat, but I sure as hell am not responsible for him nor care about his parents feelings who just try to use and abuse my generosity. There are other pools to swim in, but you may have to pay and watch your own kid. Do me a favour ! ......

Hammer,

I do not make statements I cannot support and I still remember this from almost 2 years ago, in fact I recently discussed the situation with a current mod and when he wrote back he decline to even mention it, I have to assume he knows it happens.

Just saying I sit here as an observer and see many posts deleted because the rules were not followed but Marc Fratello makes a simple mistake and it get's fixed, no deletion and there Joe Blow who just had his post deleted has to post again and figure out what he did wrong. Maybe the Mod, when he deletes the offending post could give the new comer an idea where he went wrong? Perhaps it would help people and like said there are some great mates here so why no one can point the person int he right direction? How long would would it take to type a few words about where the person went wrong in his post. I mean if you guys can correct posts for the friends then the least you could do is point the new guy in the right direction?

Below is word for word my interaction via email regarding the subject and the link to the offending post that was wrong and it got changed and stayed, no deletion for Mr. Marc.

"We will have to agree to disagree on the MODS, I know it is a thankless job and you are always pissing someone off but I do try and read most Pre A/Pre V posts, be them FS/WTB or something in your excellent sub-forum. Now most everyone knows the posting rules and I have seen some of the long term posters post and make a mistake and it was clear the posts should have been deleted but instead I have witnessed at least 3 times where instead of the posts being deleted all of sudden it appears and it has been edited by a MOD, post corrected and the long term posters dont have to live by the same rules. Now I dont know how that works but it was not poster equality at work, it was more like Oh I know this guy, Ill help him out but this next guy I dont know so Ill delete his post. Sorry but I saw this with my own eyes at least 3 times, here is 1 example, why did Marc Fratello get this special treatment.http://www.network54.com/Forum/353390/message/1284388957/FS-+PAM+202a+!!+%28maximo199%29 Sorry, dont mean to take it on you but I do watch these ads for the Pre A/Pre V items/watches and since this occurred almost 16/17 months ago I do remember saying to myself that this ad will be deleted due to something (sorry I really cannot remember the infraction) but nope, just fixed by a MOD. Marc Fratello may have a reputation because he has been on P.com since late 2005 but in my eyes his rep is not much mainly because of this line used in trying to sell his 202/A matching dial, this is direct from the ad The watch is has a matching dial - but as you know all matching dials will become non matching in time. If he has to resort to such a bullshit line.....

Look no offense to anyone but I read and remember and I see what get's deleted and what get's fixed. Some people are the blessed and some are cursed.

As for MODS, I bet P.com has 2 dozen standing in line to become MODS and yet all the MODS here now are over worked and under loved here. Take on some new MODS and try and spread the work around if everyone now is fully loaded.

Hammer, if you do not mind, can you email me, I need to discuss a personal issue with you. regards, Robert

...but sure, if someone constantly behaves as a a complete and utter tosser, then people are generally less forgiving if that person makes a mistake. Inconsistent, unfair? Sure it is. Call it human nature if you will.
Again, speaking for myself - not as a moderator.
Cheers,
Martin

People are judged by the totality of their behaviors in many, if not most, situations. It's just not realistic to expect rules that require the implementation of judgement to be applied on a "per post" basis... like you said, if someone constantly behaves as a tosser that means a pattern is emerging and at some point that pattern has to be recognized and responded to.

And just like in jail... everyone is innocent, everyone was given an unfair sentence and everyone was railroaded by unfair and inconsistent rules... at least that's what you hear if you ask the people who keep breaking the rules and getting thrown in jail

________________
Micah

What really goes on behind the scenes.

Your example of Mr. Fratello's edited post is hardly evidence of favoritism. You could check with him and see if he feels he has ever been given extra "leeway" here.

Another more likely scenario is that Mr. Fratello probably realized he had made a mistake in his posting and emailed one of the moderators to ask him to make an edit to correct his post. This happens all the time, it's a by-product of users not having the ability to edit their own posts. The moderators should be happy to help someone who realizes his post isn't in compliance and wants to correct it. It's much simpler than the process we have to follow when deleting posts.

Sometimes moderators will edit a post when a simple fix can correct a violation. It will often depend upon how much time the person has, whether they are on a computer or a mobile device or a number of other factors. Usually when a post is deleted the mod will email the user to inform him of the deletion and tell them how to correct it.

Because our rules can be interpreted subjectively there are always going to be some differences in the way they are interpreted by different moderators. Adding more moderators won't necessarily improve this consistency.

We try very hard to be fair AND consistent with the application of the rules. However, a long time user with a positive relationship with the moderators may get a little extra attention. It's a normal byproduct of building a good relationship.

In the end we want the people who use this forum to have fun. We feel there is much more positive to the forum than negative. We hope you can focus on that.

Let me make myself clear:
1. I think the Mods do a great job, and their pay sucks.
2. I did not intend to launch a urination contest when I asked my question.
3. I do not think the Mods should be asked to police every post that appears on the forum, they just don't have the time.
4. I have complete confidence in the Mods' judgement when it comes to editing or deleting posts.
5. I do not agree with Robert Miley.
6. I like puppies, I don't like kittens; I'm in favor of world peace; I think the 49ers would have beaten New England, too.

Kirk

Leave it to someone from the CG to throw, someone that supported him, under the bus. Lesson learned again about these so called M8tes.

Robert,
You seem to see things through your own eyes and make assumptions about other people's intentions.

The simple fact is that you are making assumptions and leaps in logic that simply are not justified. The rules are not interpreted in favor of anyone, especially on the commercial fora. It is true that well-known and respected Paneristi may be given the benefit of a doubt from time to time, but that exists in the grayer areas only.

When people disagree with your assertions, you get personal.

The post you cite in your responses is from September of 2010 - well over a year ago.

We edit posts when the posts can be saved wi minimal effort and to accommodate the poster. When the post can't be saved, it has to be deleted, archived, and an email is sent to the poster in most circumstances. Of course if the poster is a complete tosser, troll or repeat offender, they are less likely to get that courtesy mail.

My suggestion to you is to stop looking for intrigue behind everything the mods do and just enjoy the site. If you dislike the management here enough, please, by all means, go out and start your own site. I'm sure it will be a resounding success due to your philosophy of management.

So sit back, relax, and enjoy.
charles

and you should know that one thing we Mods -really- frown on is ad hominem attacks. if you need to, look it up. i'll wait.

you'll understand how i interpret that comment as such an attack? good. it was.

allow me to give you some advice, sir. i suggest that you re-read our rules and refrain from future displays. and regarding Kirk? i've the pleasure of his acquaintance, and you are way off the mark on this one. that and i seriously doubt you possess the intestinal fortitude to speak so churlishly in person.

if you are under the mistaken assumption that crass behavior and uncouth speech will win you friends here amongst the community you're mistaken. furthermore, we Mods will enforce the rule that clearly states "in short, be nice and have fun...".

the fact that Kirk's post is still up and multiple Mods took valuable time to respond thoughtfully should indicate to you that our impartiality extends even to those who ask tough questions - but be advised, we don't look kindly upon those who choose to comport themselves in an unseemly manner.

one and only one warning.

i'm quite sure that you will want to point to this post as an example of Mods being heavy handed, not being "fair", not respecting your opinions or right to post, etc. in point of fact, you've violated the rules and are being warned. i'll even leave your post up for others to comment on.

be nice. it's important.

bo

and you shouldn't mind if I disagree with you. It's human nature; it's the way the world works. Adults learn to accept it and live with it.

HOWEVER, insulting the organization I spent 27 years in simply because I disagreed with you goes beyond the line of acceptable civilized behavior. Coasties hang their ass out every day to locate and save people just like you. I spent two years flying search and rescue out of Kodiak, Alaska, and believe me, there is nothing more challenging (and frightening) than that job. I've seen helicopter pilots rescue crabbers in 70ft seas and hurricane force winds . . . at night. Some of those same pilots gave their life trying to rescue people just like you. Your comment insults their sacrifice, and does nothing to support your argument.

I know I risk feeding the troll by even responding to your comment, but I just couldn't let this one go unaddressed. Shame on you.

Kirk

SEMPER PARATUS

One of the reasons I respect Kirk so much for the path he choose , none with more honor or bravery

But have to say a funny one , last trip to SoCal I had lunch with Gregoire and his CO , his CO had started giving greg shit when he went to the bar , and told me of a survival training operation in the bush and when it ended he asked greg how had it gone for him , stuck in the middle of the bush for days and nights with nothing ?

Greg replied >> COASTIES don't camp good

I almost spilt my drink !!!!!

Hahahahaha



.

So much MORE than just a Watch

What Watch ,, it's the M8TES behind my brand that I LOVE ,, the Watch is just the GPS

A decade on ,, I COPY it now ,, More than EVER b4 >> it's a PANERAI behind every Panerai is a PANERISTI

And dat , SIMPLY blows me away ,, U Bet....................... BBQ Drew RIP

Feel the Passion ,, Respect the DNA ,, Cheers Beers ,,, Hoo Roo Hammer

I snuck Snickers and toilet paper in my kit. I could have made it without the Snickers, but the TP . . . don't think so.

Kirk

.

So much MORE than just a Watch

What Watch ,, it's the M8TES behind my brand that I LOVE ,, the Watch is just the GPS

A decade on ,, I COPY it now ,, More than EVER b4 >> it's a PANERAI behind every Panerai is a PANERISTI

And dat , SIMPLY blows me away ,, U Bet....................... BBQ Drew RIP

Feel the Passion ,, Respect the DNA ,, Cheers Beers ,,, Hoo Roo Hammer