Ok, so lemme say it… I don’t like the Bronzo >>>>>
August 17 2012 at 4:23 PM
(Login Gu5h) High Heid Yin from IP address 220.127.116.11
Before you flame on - please hear me out. I have the upmost respect for Panerai and a great love of this community - always. However there are watches which are released which catch a fever and become hot property which sometimes I dont understand - the Bronzo is one such watch.
I just wanted to start a healthy (and positive) discussion about a passion which we all share on this site : )) Im not down on the Bronzo in anyway and mean no disrespect to the people who have bought one (actually wish them the best and am happy for them in their excitement) - its just that I dont feel it to be that special, even if it is an SE : ) ironic I know.
Panerai needs to appeal to a broad audience and I understand, respect and celebrate that we all have different tastes. Some love 47mm only - my Brother in Law (aka BIL aka J-F), some love base, some buy into precious metals, others want pure DNA, it goes on and on
So what is it that I dislike about the 382 Bronzo? Well its probably what everyone else loves about it (its often the way).
Firstly I dont love the bronze (key I know), how it ages and the discolouration. I understand the nautical reference but hey, teak is used on boats and sailing ships and I wouldn't want a teak watch either : )
Then the green dial - really not sure, gimme brown or black - boring I know but Im a creature of comfort!
Like I have said - Im sure the above are the main reasons that people love the Bronzo but it just doesn't do anything for me personally.
Question in my head is - do people love the Bronzo because its such hot property or because they genuinely love the look and feel? What if it wasn't a SE and produced in the same numbers as say the 372? Would there still be such a fever? I love the 372 and like the fact its attainable by all to share and grow our passion.
So what are your thoughts - love the Bronzo - or not so much? (think I already know the answer and Im happy to be in the minority here).
Are there any other hot Panerai which youve never quite understood why theyre sooo hot?
OR - are there some which should be much hotter property than they currently are?
Would love to hear your thoughts in the spirit of respectful discussion.
Have a great weekend all - with or without your Bronzos : ))
I have a Bronzo. I changed the strap to one made by Rob Montana that is thicker and lighter in color, and had a bronze buckle made by Simona to substitute for the one supplied by Panerai. While I personally don't find the 305's similar design as appealing in its material I do like the 382. It attracts a lot of positive conversation with other watch enthusiasts, including but not limited to Panerisi. It is comfortable to wear, I don't care one way or the other about the discoloration, all in all I find it fun to wear. I wonder whether you might feel differently if you had one set up like mine to wear and enjoy yourself and with others.
I admit that I've never been turned on by the 382. I think it's interesting; I don't think it's ugly, it just doesn't tickle my pickle; I do hate the nickname (but then I hate "Fiddy" too--makes me cringe each time I see/hear it--which means I'm cringing at this moment (could we not appoint an official Panerai nickname committee composed of people who graduated from high school?)); I do regret not getting one, but only because I missed out on the puzzling instant increase in value (but I can't whine, I've got a 195 and 217 I bought at retail).
There, now I feel better. Should we talk about presidential candidates next?
I don't get the Bronzo. Used to not get the 372 either, at least in terms of how EVERYONE wants one. Nice watch but c'mon people, think for yourselves.
That said, the patina thing is cool. But... I'm with the OP in that although I appreciate patina on lume and straps and such, frankly I want my case to be in a reasonably clean, shiny state. To me, it's a lot of money for a novelty, which doesn't appeal much to my practical side.
interesting thread - what I do and don't like about the Bronzo...
August 17 2012, 4:41 PM
First off, full disclosure, I don't own one.
I actually love the bronze. I don't love or hate the green dial. Black or brown would be fantastic, but the green is just fine. I think it is a fantastic looking watch, but have no interest in buying one, primarily due to the price. SE or not doesn't matter to me, but the Bronzo doesn't appeal to me at the going rate.
I also have the same problems with it I have with the 305 - the exhibition back and depth rating. Yes, I know they are the first subs with the in-house movements, but not all in-house movements HAVE to be on display. If you want to look at a P.9000, get a 312, but for goodness sake, put a solid back on anything called "Submersible". The depth rating is fine for my purposes, heck my Subs don't go deeper than a swimming pool, but it greatly enhances the "tool" appeal to me for a "Submersible" watch to have a depth rating superior to a standard Luminor. Give me a 243 or 285 anyday over the P.9000 subs. Put a solid back and 1000m on the dial and crown guard on the 305 and Bronzo and they start speaking to me.....
Re: Ok, so lemme say it… I don’t like the Bronzo >>>>>
August 17 2012, 4:47 PM
I like you and I like the Bronzo. I didn't sign up for it when it came out, but I've grown to really like it through the pics and strap combos posted over the last year or so. One thing I like about it is that it's a totally unique Panerai; kind of like the 249. (yeah, oops).
Regarding the metal itself and its properties, I love the poor man's bronzo that I bought, including the patina and the way it looks on different straps. So, if I had the chance, I would buy a 382 for retailish. If your influential voice as an OG Risti has the effect of drastically driving down prices and flooding the market, I owe you a steak.
I completely agree Gush, I've said it before too....
August 17 2012, 4:47 PM
Its funny because you knew the 382 was gonna be the hot watch for 2011, but I never got on the list, I've just never been a fan of that dial honestly. I love the idea of the watch, and the color they used on the dial, but the drastic pantina and the color of the watch, I'm just not into it. I thought I was the only one! Guess not
I think it basically boils down to "Does the watch sing to me". For some it is melodic, for some its noise. It seems that for the owners of this cool piece, it is a beautiful symphony. I am down with that.
Personally, for me, I just I can't appreciate the beauty that others find in the Bronzo.
I am not very sophisticated nor cultured..so please take my views with a grain of salt
Interestingly, I started out the same.
However, I have always loved the style of the 305...
In fact, I purchased one direct from the boutique right when they came out.
I like the double hash mark '12' hour indicator throw back.
Then the bronzo came out and I was like, meh...
Fast forward to now and I drool over them. It's nothing to do with the 'value' either since I didn't get one from Panerai. I had to foot the flipper price.
Regardless, I enjoy it and honestly think it's one of the best watches they have ever made post-vendome! Now go ahead and flame me!!!
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face - GT
I like it... there are parts I don't care for - if being critical - but understand you..
August 17 2012, 5:21 PM
My preference would be for a 44mm Sub, with a dark-blue, and just every so slightly metallic dial. That would be a tasty critter
The green dial is something to get used to; I would have preferred a touch darker color, myself; however, it is a really nice watch that
has presence. For the list (or now, over list) price, I would probably look at some others first, Panerai or not. But with a larger collection,
I would give this serious consideration.
I'm also holding out until another year or so goes by. Curious as to how this puppy ages over time.... is there a point where rubbing ketchup
may not help 'restore' its original finish?
Heard there's another Bronzo model coming for next year; very interested in seeing that one
Good debate Gush ... I don't dislike the bronzo but would not own one ...
August 17 2012, 5:34 PM
In first I have to say that rarely one watch gave me a such emotion like the 382 gave me when I had the chance to try and manipulate one in the OP headquarters, the 382 is stunning and equilibrated : wow ! so unique !
But, because there is a " but ", the fact to wear a " yellow " watch was a " no way " for me ... too " show off " or too visible ? the problem is there I think in a personal culture question.
The second " no way " was the " " how will it age ? " I have in my memory the reminder of the contact with a greenish bronze and I disliked it ... I don't know how is the feeling when you have a contact with a patinated 382 but the reminds from the kindness are so important in an adult's life
For some reason it is starting to grow on me. Would be sweeter if it wasn't green but so is my Rolex. Can't complaint.
I have not tried it on so can't comment on that. If the price is more affordable for the regular joe then it would be next on my list.
You know years ago when I first encounter Panerai, I thought it was ugly. There I said it. Then as I did more research about this brand and models, I fell in love with it. Now I think they are one of the best looking and interesting watches around.
I'm pretty ambivalent about the Bronzo if I'm honest about it...
August 17 2012, 5:46 PM
When I've seen them and worn them I like it, but frankly the LE status and the hype surrounding it turns me off.
Let me put it this way: If Bronzo were regular production and I wanted a sub that would be the one I'd get. I love the way it changes and develops patina over time, it's an unusual material, and I like the green dial.
But I don't like any of those things enough to go through all the hassle and significant expense of finding one given their status as a hot LE model.
As for other hot PAM's that I've never quite understood, that would be the 339. No offense to those who dig it, but personally I just don't get it. The material is weird, the wrist feel is weird, the all-brown color combo is weird, the MM dial on a watch so very not historic is weird... the whole thing is odd to me.
As for PAM's that I don't understand why they aren't hotter, 390. While I myself am not a huge 390 fan I just can't figure out why this model hasn't tripled in price on the secondary market and become almost impossible to find. Instead it looks like you can have them all day at barely above MSRP. I mean... 44mm luminor, brown dial, gold hands, text on the top, first of it's kind, the whole thing seems to me like a massive hit, but it just doesn't seem to have caught fire. Sorta like the 232 I guess.
It's actually the gold hands that ruin that watch for me.
Love the brown dial though. I just am maybe too much of a purest, but gold hands belong on the 47mm vintage historics, not on a 44mm watch.
Now if those who feel like they can't wear a 47mm want what something tied to the vintage watches then I get it, but that's not me.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face - GT
You saved me a lot of typing. I agree about the bronze, it is nice, but I wount pay a huge premium. I actually really like the green dial, but I think a lot of people are caught up in the hype.
I also agree n the 339, though I think it has cooled significantly. i just dont get why the Marina Militare fits on that watch.
I agree again about the 390 and 232....these are absolute classics, and are very underrated.
Lastly, I will add what I feel is an underrated piece to the list. I think the 380, although not an SE, is an incredible piece and a great entry to the brand. I am very surprised it has not enjoyed the success of the likes of the zero....at least not yet. As for bang for your buck, it does not get a whole lot better than a 380 on a nice strap.
the zero pays homage to the classic PreV 201A and thus its huge popularity with the collectors and entry buyers whereas the 380 is a 45mm rad (DNA is 47mm) with a logo (designed for a Luminor). Not saying I dont like the 380, just trying to justify why it isnt and perhaps will never take the place of a zero. Just my opinion...
Gush, you've brought a nice theme for discussion, I believe
Panerai seems so pushed to every year launch anything different, that it might explain some models. It became fashion indeed .
382 is IMO at least close to their heritage, fun watch indeed, but for me, only fun
Got a Helson Bronze and had to send it back to switch the case - eventually, I liked the previous brass case better than the Bronze case and buckle . After you got your wrist green you might understand why.
I simply think watches have to withstand the aggressiveness of our own sweat, and it's tougher than lot of environments . 339 owners might experienced it as well. Then, I've seen many Rolex vintages subs with lots of pits due to corrosion, and we are talking about high grade stainless steel -- so , I imagine how those fancy materials would look like in 20 years from now.
As I said, fun watches for fun time. And for sure boosted with hype of limited numbers, agressive marketing and passion .
I also agree with you about the market price -- should it be available in larger numbers, the scenario would be quite different -- and I barely imagine how it would be if was a regular production -- I really doubt it would get this attention if it was 2000 or 3000 produced annually.
You've pointed a sensitive discussion too -- if we would still love the watch should its market price was not over valuated -- and my humble guess is NO . Lots of examples of fantastic watches around that get so little attention but with very nice design and fantastic movements -- and that's simply human way of being a horde .
" If price is great then it should be good " . Childish behaviour that are well known and explored for so many . On the other hand, any owner that had spent MRSP or even higher on a watch would logically like it to valuate over time.
I respect and envy the old school that had started the Panerai passion -- quite unknown, chunky watch, with quite simply movements . But at that time we were talking about a much lower price level too . At that time, those united around that pieces were sharing the REAL passion, because it was not a question of status , showing off or whatever -- you tell me if I'm wrong.
I own and have owned many dive watches from all different manufacturers including Panerai. I appreciate the uniqueness as well as different nuances manufactures take on these conventional dive watches. The Bronzo happens to be a different case material than the typical SS dive watches that I own (with the exception of the Ti 202). If it wasn't the 382, I would have probably gotten a Helson bronze diver.
Case material is not the only unique characteristic that appeals to me. For example, I'm waiting on a micro-brand dive watch that will be assembled by the masterful watch maker, Thomas Prescher. Again, this is unique and sets it apart from other dive watches.
With all that said, my taste continues to evolve and although I do not own a Radiomir, my preference is starting to lean toward it along with other more subdued watches.
Agree with you Gush.... also I don't even think that .....
August 17 2012, 6:45 PM
it was the nicest sub from the releases they did. I think the 371 is a better looking watch in my eyes. The blue dial is just gorgeous. I don't have a 371 nor a bronzo but I would take the 371 over it.
I actually think the ennebi bronzo is a nicer bronzo - but that's just me!
I'm with Frank. Love and wear the shite out of mine...
August 17 2012, 7:44 PM
Patina the result of lots of ocean swimming in the Pacific, Mediterranean, Aegean, and next week it will get a bath in the Bering Sea
As it loses its sheen, nothing flash about it. The only yellow metal watch I wear. Couldn't care about LE or resale. Wearing it gives me pleasure. Whether you like it or not means something to you, but not to me.
IMHO, it would be a cool addition to the collection -- but not a "must have", as I know it would not get regular wear on my wrist. I've also had great trepidation of bronze since it was announced. Any contact with bronze turns my skin bronze dial green. While I know the bronze doesn't sit directly on the skin, I would fully expect some effect.
Finally, while I'd be lying if I said I don't like occasional attention, I do believe that the Bronzo may attract a bit too much gazing. I know I would feel uncomfortable wearing it around some people that I have no problem wearing other PAMs around. It borders on being slightly too blingy for me.
With that said, I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers. I actually commend Panerai for stretching their material boundaries in a way that is connected (albeit a stretch) with their past. I surely did not feel that way about composite -- that never interested me. I also like the case/face combo. I have always liked the 305, just couldn't get over the lightness of the titanium (yea, I'm real F'in picky).
If I could have picked one up at retail, I probably would have -- and it would have been worn whenever I was feeling a little feisty. But no way at elevated prices. In my mind, the price will eventually come further down to earth and it will only remain a grail for a select few.
I absolutely agree with you on the 372. To me, it is the "must have" watch of this year...and maybe of the entire post vendome era. It probably gets 75% of my wrist time and I have a hard time justifying taking it off. I also love the fact that the 372 is more attainable. I'm fortunate to have a few SEs that I cherish, but in my mind the true spirit of community lies in "inclusiveness" not "exclusiveness".
360, 390, 232,372
If You Don't Go, You Can't Come Back.
RIP BBQ & Drew
Honestly, in this day & age, high-end watches to me is much more a fashion-statement, or at least 'wearable collectable' art -- than they are instruments to tell time. As such, I like my watch collections to be unique. I have watches made of SS, Ti, and (had) composite. Next up will be gold.
A nice dressy gold watch is great, except I'm not into dressy watches. Sporty watches made of solid gold makes zero sense to me and would be much too-gaudy for my 'fashion statement' (at least for now).
That's where bronze comes in. It has all the appeal of gold -- beautiful yellow glow, striking, eye-catching -- yet it's not gaudy since it's NOT gold! The minimalist sticks dial of the 305 does not fight for attention with the striking gold-tone case. The green dial works really well with about 3 months worth of bronze patina. All in all it just absolutely works as a unique look for a sporty submersible luminor like the 382!
Speaking of patina, I love how OP chose to leave the bronze raw. It starts to pick up my personalized-patina immediately, and looks absolutely gorgeous in just 3 months instead of 20 years. Yet, a quick 15 minutes ketchup-rub would restore the full-on sunshine lustre of a brand new watch. And to think that I can patina/rewind this process over and over as often as I wish!!! The best way I can describe the experience is it feels like the Bronzo is somehow organic & alive! ))
I signed up for a 'bronze Pam' when it was still a rumour the day before it was officially announced. I was patient and rejected many secondary market offers thinking I will surely get the call since I bought most of my Panerais from this Boutique. Yet I never got the call. So a year and a half later I finally realized why it's a "wish list" and not a "wait list" and paid the flipper tax.
Sure I was dissapointed, but I realize it's just business as usual to OP. I also realize everything I love about the bronze applies to just about all the bronze watches from the other brands. But the other brands didn't introduce me to my Risti brothers (& one or two sisters ), and for that, I'll stick to Panerai for now... Sorry for the ramble!!
P/s: For those that have lingering doubt on how the bronze casing works on a sporty watch -- Expandables 2 is out and I must say I enjoyed it's old-fashioned muscle-bound guns-a-blazin brass-knuckles-a-crackin action-heros (with no superpowers!) immensely! )))
I've loved it since the moment it was announced and when I saw the very first piece>>
August 17 2012, 10:57 PM
In metal when Eng came to visit us. It is IMHO the only modern Panerai which can truly be individual. The way the case patina will be different for each owner and hence rendering each individual piece to be unique. Too flashy? Well, that goes for almost every other 47mm and while we think 44mms are normal, at least half of the world still calls it a big watch. Prob the "yellow" is too loud but that will be subdued in no time by the oxidization .
In the world of mass produced uniformity, the bronzo presents a unique opportunity to own something that is as individual as you.
Having said that, it is one of the pieces that have eluded me despite being among the first to put my name at the boutique (
No matter how much I love a piece, I prescribe to the philosophy that I would rather not own a piece than pay flipper tax- "market " value or not..
is the alloy:
i love to see the watch changes daily, getting its own -different- character!
I find quite interesting the fact that i'll go out of the house in the morning and i'll get in the house in the afternoon with a "different" watch!
It's the must have "variable" in my collection, even though i cannot get near its price...
Not a great fan of the green dial however, but i can easily live with it.
For an $11k watch, it's a reasonable price due to in house movement and its unique movement. I didn't quite like it at first but upon handling it in flesh, I love it right away. However for the current market price, it's too much (heck, even if let say the current market price is the retail price, I think it's too much).
The wrist presence is great as it doesn't look too big vs like the 312 which has the same movement. The green dial complements the patina of the bronze.
With that said, if OP comes out with a Luminor case (not sub), I will definitely get one for my beater watch if I have the chance again.
I was never a big fan, the watch, it never had that initial wow for me >>>
August 18 2012, 12:39 AM
When it was announced I just had the feeling that I would't wear it that much so I never pursued one.
I do like the watch more now than at first, but maybe that's just the kool aid talking
The thing I don't really understand is the patina "issue" The bronze is supposed to relate back to the nautical roots of the company. But, in my experience ship's crews pride themselves on keeping their ship's brass and bronze bits highly polished and shiny, fighting off patina. So, it would seem to me that letting the watch patina heavily is actually not in keeping with the historical context of the material. Or am I a complete numpty?
"But sometimes when you bring the thunder, you get lost in the storm." K.P.
Finally...someone dares speak out against the bronzo ;)
August 18 2012, 1:56 AM
Well, I am biased but as Sachin says below I think the 371 was a stand out piece and I am really surprised that it has not gotten as much love as the bronzo. I think it's a better looking piece and the technical features are better than those on the bronzo. Not surprisingly, I bought one and I'm glad people went nuts for the bronzo because I was able to get the 371 in the aftermarket at a reasonable price
I didn't "get" the bronzo thing when it was first launched, I must say, though some SG Ristis (you know who you are bro!) were really hot about the piece from the start.
But over time, its grown on my so much. The main thing is the ever changing case, for those of us who like T dials, its almost as if each piece is unique and ages differently, only a LOT faster than T dials !
Again, it a bit like Tritium love, most don't get it, some do, others (like me) acquire the taste one day and can't accept anything else after that
-there is a wow factor, a material that changes like a living thing, everytime you take it out it's different
- The material is robust, One doesnt have to worry about scratching it like unlike ss pams, discoloration is actually desirable, doesn't crack like ceramic, and you can buff out the dings unlike dlc.
- its the only model in the panerai stable with this material. Although not the first player, bronze became relatively hot and spanned a number of substitutes from other smaller makers. That said, for the same reason people may like the material that can patina, others may dislike it.
- for those that prefer bling, its rose gold hue and heft has also attracted collectors from other premium brands where the high price premium is quite entry level comparatively.
- of course there are tons of other reasons why a watch appeals to different people, but it takes a combination of factors to make a piece desirable, and I believe 382 has the right mix.
...it's such a unique watch, and can be restored to its rose gold-like hue whenever it's desired. The subtle patina mine is developing is appealing to me, and less severe then swimming with it. I questioned the green dial too, especially regarding how it would look on me at my palest during the winter. I get why Panerai went with this color though, and there's no arguing with the result to my eyes. Wearing a warmer-toned watch is great. I'd suggest to those who feel SS or Ti are the only metals meant for a watch, give a rose gold or bronze one a try. They're not the same old solid gold cheesy Seiko red LED my Uncle Mart used to sport in he '70s. Check this pic out--what's not to like?
I actually bought an Ennebi Bronzo because I had no idea I'd get the 382. One watch friend calls my Ennebi an "abomination", but it's the most unique and personalized watch I own. It wears bigger than the 382, but it's fun to wear and is a real conversation starter. My non-watch friends think my big watches make up for my other presumed inadequacies--it's actually hysterical. A new Panerai 44mm bronze might be more appealing to the masses, but the new 44mm Ennebi doesn't do it for me.
At list (or close) the 382 is worth it to me, but at the prices I'm seeing now I'd probably get an AP jumbo or Patek 5711, as either one I'd love to have and hope to get one day.
Regarding Micah's post about selling watches, I understand his feelings. I usually wear two different watches daily, but not all get equal wrist time--how could they? Most of us here have multiple watches and only one watch-wearing wrist; we're going to prefer some over others. My 372 is worn far more frequently than my 232, which I've thought of selling, but every time I strap that Rad on, I realize how unique and special it is. It fits so well and is very comfortable. For those who say the 372 is "all that" and the 232 doesn't compare, I beg to disagree. I wonder if those people have worn both for any meaningful period of time.
I get Farbod's comment about the 390 also. I also wish the text on the dial was white. The watch is certainly sweet, but has a somewhat mauve tone that is losing its appeal to me.
Getting back on track, I'm glad that the professors here can elucidate the complete history of every Panerai watch, but I could care less if a new watch is historically correct. It either appeals to me or it doesn't. When the love fades or I could use cash to fund another one, it's easier to let one go. I think I'll have the 382 for a long time.
I'm with you Gush, but then over time I thought about..
August 18 2012, 4:37 PM
the old diver helmets (Altamarea logo e.g.)
Jules Verne novels
old sailing ships with bronze equipment
old diver equipment with bronze
and this look fits for me to the vintage PANERAIs, because for me
it was one reason I fell in love with the vintage PANERAIs and actual models which are near that look.
All those designs remind me of all those things mentioned above.
But the look of the Bronzo is only perfect for me when it is well worn and looks like an old instrument on a ship.
It would be perfect for me without date and a handwound movement instead of the automatic one.
when it comes to liking something, it boils down to preference and AFAIK one's preference always changes with time! The things I don't really like to begin with, I end up liking them more - and vice versa.
Truth be told I wasn't excited about the Bronzo and never liked the kind of patina it can get. But the more I see it, the more I like it. I've always liked the color of rose gold and bronze has that same type of warmth. The green dial is just an amazing combination with the bronze. It's contrasting in a nice way and has a nautical feel to it even though bronze/green isn't the color of the sea !
What amazes me so much about the Bronzo is that it is - to the masses - a success even though there were a couple of other bronze watches before its time. A case in point would be the Gefica from Gerald Genta which I thought would likely appeal to the public but never did take off. Panerai, however, sets the trend for bronze watches with the Bronzo - you have to give it to them, really!
It is a happy circumstance that when nature gives us true burning desires, she also gives us the means to satisfy them
- E. Seykota