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Scammers /scam′mers/ noun [c] >>> A few thoughts on staying safer.

August 8 2017 at 3:55 PM

Peter Fruehling  (Login Acro-Pilot)
Forum moderators
from IP address 24.118.213.150

...and this is in no way a recommendation or advice. This is simply perspective that comes from all the CRAZY stories I've heard of "deals gone bad" over the years. On occasion, we end up getting a bit of "behind the scenes" on situations that don't make the public forum. Again, just a bit of sharing for the $.02 that it's worth. Each time we think we've seen it all...SHEESH!

Keep in mind, no one that had these things happen to them, thought it was going to happen. They had a "GREAT" relationship with this person via email, WhatsApp, text. "The seller / buyer seemed so nice and even had kids." (exactly what they wanted you to think...they're good at this.)

PayPal: We've talked about this one. Proceed at your own risk. It seems to be fantastically popular with thieves on BOTH sides of the transaction.
• Seller can ship you a fake watch or a box of rocks and it's your word against theirs.
• Seller can ship you nothing at all and disappear after collecting and transferring your $10k...I hope PayPal will give it all back to you.
• Buyer can claim you sent him / her a fake and return a different watch than you sent them. Again, your word against theirs.
• Buyer can reclaim funds saying you shipped a box of rocks or that the the package was stolen off their porch


Face to Face: Going to meet someone you don't know and sharing that you'll be out on the street carrying $10k in cash. (GOOD IDEA!)
• Seller brings a fake watch hoping that you are not able to identify that it's fake
• Seller blags you blind as you arrive at the coffee shop...including the watch you were wearing to go pick up your new one.
• Buyer blags you blind as you arrive at the coffee shop...including the watch you were wearing to go sell your watch to your new email pal.
• Buyer / Seller has their best mate knock you over on your way back to the car.


Work with a reputable dealer: There are several well known dealers here that can help source watches and find buyers.
• This removes virtually all the guesswork. Is there a cost? Yes. Is it worth it to remove the questions on a big investment? It is for me.
• Seller can feel safe knowing that the money will be coming to him / her from the dealer.
• Buyer can feel safe knowing the watch has been inspected and will be coming to him / her from the dealer.


Meet at an OP Boutique or AD: Safe space with security and staff able to authenticate the watch.
• This needs to be set up with the boutiqoe or AD ahead of time and their will be a fee...good investment if you ask me.
• Seller can drop the watch off ahead of time so the AD can inspect it and authenticate the piece as a neutral party.
• Buyer can feel safer being in a secure environment with cameras and security guards while carrying cash.
• Buyer / Seller can both proceed or back out more safely in a neutral environment


This has been said ad nauseam but I'll share it one more time because it truly is the golden rule. Buy the buyer / seller! We all get emotional about watches...it's one of the reasons we're here. I'm as guilty of this as anyone. The times I've found myself getting in to a potentially sketchy situation is when I have become more focused on the prize than the plan I was working to get there.

Again, take this for what it's worth...roughly USD $.02. I'm just seeing a few more scammers hard at work as of late and want to make sure we're all being careful out there.

One love, Ristis!
- Peter


[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Acro-Pilot from IP address 12.130.117.210 on Aug 8, 2017 8:08 PM


 
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Mike
(Login mlcdmd)
Paneristi
108.21.228.40

I like the boutique idea

August 8 2017, 6:24 PM 

How does that cost work? Do they charge a flat fee to authenticate? Is it usually someone on staff there that day or does it have to sent out?

Great advice and thanks for looking out for the new(ish) guys like me
Mike...NYC. My collection so far is a 312 and some cool straps.

 
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Peter Fruehling
(Login Acro-Pilot)
Forum moderators
12.130.117.210

It completely depends, Mike. >

August 8 2017, 7:49 PM 

Every AD is different. Some may love the idea of having you in and getting to know you so they can sell you other watches. They'll make sure you have a great experience. Others may have a set price to inspect a watch...where others may not be willing to do it at all.

My feeling, for what it's worth, is just to be 100% honest about what you're goal is and ask for their help. People generally like to help. Sharing that you're willing to pay for their time and get to know their store in the process will likely give you the best chance of a successful outcome.
- Peter


[linked image]

 
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Mike
(Login mlcdmd)
Paneristi
108.21.228.40

Good points

August 8 2017, 8:10 PM 

Off topic, but I had emailed you a while back about a strap idea/pipe dream that would require an o.p. Connection.

It probably ended up on a spam folder but if you have a sec, drop me a line.

Michael

Costa

Dmd

At gmail

No spaces, dots.
Mike...NYC. My collection so far is a 312 and some cool straps.

 
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Peter Fruehling
(Login Acro-Pilot)
Forum moderators
12.130.117.210

In flight right now... (See Pic) I'll take a look when we land.

August 8 2017, 8:33 PM 

Here we go.

[linked image]
- Peter


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This message has been edited by Acro-Pilot from IP address 12.130.117.210 on Aug 8, 2017 9:01 PM


 
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Mike
(Login mlcdmd)
Paneristi
108.21.228.40

Best excuse ever!

August 8 2017, 10:25 PM 

Great shot too.

Speak soon
Mike...NYC. My collection so far is a 312 and some cool straps.

 
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Peter Fruehling
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Forum moderators
70.165.87.98

Haha!!!!

August 9 2017, 4:32 AM 

- Peter


[linked image]

 
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Riyaz
(Login vbmrk)
Paneristi
107.77.76.30

Meeting buyer/seller at AD

August 8 2017, 9:13 PM 

I tried this approach last summer when helping a good friend buy a pam through here. I reached out to the AD in midtown NYC a day before meeting the seller only to be told:
1) They would/could not authenticate the watch (for any fee).
2) They would not allow the transaction to take place in the boutique as they wanted nothing to do with the sale.

Needless to say both the seller and I were a bit surprised by this response from the AD. We ended up meeting on the sidewalk outside of the AD. Fortunately for my friend and I the seller was a true gentleman and was happy to work with us regardless of the circumstances. But the AD's response truly left a bad taste.

 
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Mike
(Login mlcdmd)
Paneristi
108.21.228.40

I wonder if a dealer would be more likely to get involved than op owned boutique

August 8 2017, 10:27 PM 

I get the liability concern on their end. But I think if they charge a flat fee to send out and authenticate it'd be a huge service to both ends.

Mike...NYC. My collection so far is a 312 and some cool straps.

 
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Dave D
(Login mattymay)
Paneristi
82.6.153.187

Nice one Peter, another way PayPal has been used to defraud ...

August 8 2017, 6:41 PM 

Not sure if PayPal has changed the way it operates since, but here's an experience from a few years ago...

A buyer contacted me online wanting to talk on the phone about the watch that I was selling on eBay, all good. The deal was done, postage arrangements agreed and the excited buyer proceeded with the full PayPal payment, he stayed on the phone whilst I checked and confirmed that the funds had arrived. I promptly transferred the PayPal funds to my bank successfully, all still good.

shortly after, the buyer called me again and was very excited to say that he (unexpectedly) could make the 150 mile journey to collect the watch that very day, rather than risk/wait for postage etc. and I of course agreed that this was fine (I supposed that it was his watch now). Several hours later he arrived at my office, my colleagues were present and CCTV was recording as he signed a receipt for me. He took possession of the watch and left a happy man, still all good I thought.

It turned out that the PayPal funds he'd used to buy my watch (and actually several others that day.. also strangely a few jet skis too!) were acquired by selling a large amount of bargain iPhones on eBay but posting only empty packages (he'd contacted me before all the bad feedback arrived of course). The iPhone buyers, all of them with the same complaint could recover their payments through PayPal and PayPal could recover those funds from all the watch and jet ski sellers. Even if the funds were no longer in the PP account, or indeed the linked bank account (which apparently you agree in the terms and conditions to allow PP access to).

To benefit from any sellers protection, what was needed was "proof of postage", nothing else would do. Not witnesses, not CCTV etc, just proof of posting something (anything!).

Personally and needless to say, I'm a little cautious about considering PP funds these days .

Perhaps I should have seen it coming, but I didn't, hopefully the next person will. But looking back, if I was to identify just one "tell", then it would it be that he never tried to knock me down on price.



All the best, to buyers and sellers alike happy.gif

 
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Peter Fruehling
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Forum moderators
12.130.117.210

Ugh! That's s tough one, Dave. PayPal kiting and avoiding postage. They are crafty. nt

August 8 2017, 8:01 PM 

- Peter


[linked image]

 
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LongAgoRegular
(Login ChazHen)
141.239.193.183

Yeah THAT'S what ADs and boutiques want to do...

August 8 2017, 7:20 PM 

...be a meeting/gathering/authentication place for people to sit, chit chat and trade in watches NOT BOUGHT from them.

IMO, of course.

 
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Peter Fruehling
(Login Acro-Pilot)
Forum moderators
12.130.117.210

...and establish a relationship with both people in the process? I've found...

August 8 2017, 7:37 PM 

...any opportunity for an AD or boutique to share some time with a watch enthusiast, even if they're not buying that day, is seen as positive. Have you ever been at an AD and not tried on other watches? Again, just ideas. wink.gif
- Peter


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This message has been edited by Acro-Pilot from IP address 12.130.117.210 on Aug 8, 2017 7:40 PM


 
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Mike
(Login mlcdmd)
Paneristi
108.21.228.40

Agree here

August 8 2017, 7:56 PM 

Any reason to get a potential customer in a door and establish yourself as helpful and "on your side" has gotta be a goal of the store.
Mike...NYC. My collection so far is a 312 and some cool straps.

 
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Pakal
(Login pakal)
Paneristi
107.220.245.86

Re: Scammers /scam′mers/ noun [c] >>> A few thoughts on staying safer.

August 8 2017, 8:16 PM 

I would also add the Golden Rule : if it's too good to be true it probably is.
Many of us stick to proper principles until we step on the deal of our lifetime for which we tend to lower our defenses.

 
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Kevin O'Dell
(Login kevin5)
71.62.81.132

What's frustrating is legitimate sellers who's posts constantly get nit picked and killed

August 8 2017, 8:19 PM 

by mods with a bias agenda, yet they don't even bother to delete the obvious scam posts.

Photobucket

 
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Jeff
(Login JYoungLA)
Paneristi
198.101.99.34

+1

August 8 2017, 8:35 PM 

I too have wondered about this, it's getting to be all too obvious cmon guys.
It's a wonderful and (much too often) a thankless job you all do but OP has a point.

 
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Peter Fruehling
(Login Acro-Pilot)
Forum moderators
12.130.117.210

We're here to preserve everyone's experience by keeping the rules but adjudicating posts..

August 8 2017, 8:42 PM 

...is something we clearly state in the paragraph at the top of the Collectors' Market we can not and will not be involved in.

Here is the text:

Paneristi.com is not involved in any interaction between buyers and sellers, nor does it bear any responsibility for the transactions that may result. Paneristi.com cannot verify, nor does it have any control over, the authenticity of any item offered for sale. Paneristi.com does not screen buyers or sellers and can in no way guarantee that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction. We do not verify the identity of individual buyers or sellers, nor do we expressly or implicitly endorse any person listing items for sale. The seller is solely responsible for the description of the item(s) offered. Individuals entering into any transaction do so entirely at their own risk.
- Peter


[linked image]

 
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CharlesLC
(Login CharlesLC)
High Heid Yin
71.225.100.250

Kevin, the solution is easy ... follow the posted rules ...

August 8 2017, 9:02 PM 

and don't complain to the forum membership about bias. It's not bias, you seem to think the rules don't apply to you. Plain as day, no parts but yet you post parts up for sale after your last instance of "I'm not a dealer!' drama. Call us out on the forum? Don't be surprised when we do the same to you.

Obvious scam posts are often left up after being called out to educate the community at large so members can learn to spot them, and hopefully not get burned. If we just deleted them, nobody would learn the fairly obvious hallmarks of the scammers.

 
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dp
(Login fullcourt1)
Paneristi
65.213.233.130

a bank is also a good place to meet, secure and access to cash

August 9 2017, 2:54 AM 

or just show up at a restaurant with a pocket full of hundos, lol....🤣🤣

good advice peter....
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BuFHY0Q.jpg?2


dp
just living the dream
chicago, usa
'more than just a watch'....

 
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