i notice that in this board when we discuss about a message too often come a recurrent subject RJ's sexuality: if he's gay or not, bisexual or not... If some persons are interested on RJ'sexual behaviour they better should create a new forum dedicated to their favorite subject lol.So we'll be able to continue our interesting discussions on Natalie.By the way the only thing who cause Natalie's death was alcohol.
Jocelyne

You are right alcohol was at play in her death and it is RJ's fault she got in that condition, if he was any man and cared about his wife he would have never fed into her addictions, he would have saved her from them.

RJ and Natalie BOTH drank way too much that night and would probably be described as alcoholics now. The point is, your argument (about RJ protecting Natalie) works both ways. It could just as easily be said that Natalie should have been looking out for RJ! Or are you taking the rather sexist view that men don't need to be 'protected' - just women, because they're so weak and helpless that they need to be protected by big strong mnn!

Personally, my view (as a 'weak, helpless female') is that Natalie, as a grown woman, made the decision to drink that night. No-one put a gun to her head and made her do it. Ditto RJ.

A final point (which I've made before) - what on earth was RJ supposed to do? Remain stone cold sober? Then, when he thought Natalie had had enough, physically pick her up, put her in the dinghy and then, back on the yacht, lock her in her bedroom (after removing all the pills and any sharp onjects)?

The only person I blame for getting Natlie in the state she was in was Natalie! We should all take responsibility for our own alcohol intake, rather than expecting others to do so, because if they're drinking with us, how can we be sure they're 'protecting' us?

Joanne

WOW.. Joanne what planet do you live on, well I guess I am an old fashioned type of guy I believe in taking care and protecting my wife at any cost or in any way, my wife works and is very independant it is my duty.

I think tonight I will drop a case of beer off at the local AA meeting RIGHT isn't that what you are saying.

Vlad

Being protective of your partner (whether wife or husband) is great, but you cannot dictate to someone what they can and can't do. RJ wasn't Natalie's keeper, he was her partner - big difference.

As for your 'taking a case of beer to an AA meeting' analogy - you've completely mssed my point! I said that we should all be in control of our OWN alcohol intake and know what our limits are - it's just common sense.

To be honest, I've never understood the appeal of going out and getting drunk (and spending the next day throwing up and feeling like s**t). I enjoy a drink, but try and keep to a sensible limit.

Joanne

although i feel that we are all responsible for our own actions, i think i understand where vlad is coming from because when this first happened i too asked myself where was rj, he should not have let this happen. i suspect that he may have said the same thing to himself. i'm sure that he has not freed himself from all responsibility and i doubt he ever will. and , really, he shouldn't. i like rj and i will always admire the great job he did with natalie's kids but i would think less of him if i thought that he felt blameless.

Of course RJ won't feel blameless. But I don't feel that he should be blamed for what happened that night. Of course with hindsight it's easy to say "he should have done this" or "he shouldn't have done that" (and God knows, all of them getting so drunk was irresponsible). I understand all of that - but turning RJ into some kind of hate figure is, to my mind, completely unfair.

Joanne

I don't want to say that RJ was responsable of Natalie'death because he was drunk He wasn't the only one who was drunk, they all were in the same state ,so i said that it was alcohol which killed Natalie.Excuse my english i'm french and though i have no difficulties to read and understand ,it's not the same thing for me to translate french into english .I've some gaps especially with the grammar...lol I'm sorry.
Jocelyne

you're doing great......

Yes, Jocelyne, your English is fine!

Joanne

Thank you,english was my favorite subject with literature and geography at school,and since i'm fond of english detectives novels, movies,actors, singers and TV series.You can't imagine how bad the french tv series are .I've a lot of american dvd movies and i love England and the US.I've the hart to hart dvd season 1 since last november is't great and i wait impatiently season two.
In 1981 when i heard that Natalie died i thought that it's was sad but i didn't known her nor her husband Robert Wagner.A few years later i bought a book writting by Thomas Noguchi "Coroner" (in french of course)and i love the story about Natalie's drowning.And it was in 2001 when i watched a repeat of hart to hart that i began to be interested first by RJ's life and second by Natalie'.Their lifes are so fascinating... At that period i left my job, my daughters were older, so i had free time to begin searchs about Natalie and RJ,only on the english websites, they're not well known in Fance and it's hard to get french articles especialy old ones and informations. Of course i bought and continue to buy their movies release on dvd available in zone 2.And here i am ,bother you with my stories lol.I love this site for his informations and discussion.
Jocelyne

i forget i've the 2 Natalie's biographies (Gavin Lambert,S.Finstad),Natalie and RJ(Warren harris)and heart to heart with Robert wagner english version and it cost me a long time to read them.But apparently these biographies aren't so good
bye
Jocelyne

Jocelyne

I think most people are unhappy with all the Natalie (and RJ) bios for one reason or another (Finstadt = unsubstantiated rumour and gossip, Lambert = too slanted in RJ's favour, Harris = recycled tabloid stories, H2H With RJ = badly written and sparse on facts). Of all those mentioned, I'd have to regard the Harris book as the 'best' - simply because it was easy to read and seemed to at least touch on subjects that none of the other books mentioned, even in passing - e.g. the rumours about RJ's relationship with Stefanie Powers).

Joanne

there has yet to be a book that comes close to capturing the true essence of natalie. she was a complex woman with many demons stirring inside of her most of which were leftover from her childhood. yet, she was able to give true joy to an audience that either watched her grow up or grew up with her. she became a representative of a time in our lives and remains as such today. with her work she created many portraits of women at various stages of their lives. in her own life i think her needs were simple. she needed unconditional love and stability. these were the things that she did not have in her childhood and searched for the rest of her life. as simple as it sounds she had a difficult time finding a heart that was true and accepting of all that she was. her life story is a challenge to put on paper. i hope someday someone is able to capture all that she was and all that she would have been if she was given more time.....

BEAUTIFUL WORDS. I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF.

Jocelyne

It's interesting to hear how people became fans.

The main thing I remember about Natalie's death was a double page spread in one of the tabloids, which I recall reading on the bus to school (I would have been 13 years old at the time). To be honest, I knew very little about her - I was a big H2H fan and was surprised to find out that this actress who'd tragically drowned was RJ's wife!

I've been an RJ fan for many years now (and have found out much more about Natalie as a result) and was lucky enough to meet him (and Stefanie Powers) in 1990.

Joanne