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Wagner's Sexual Preferences

April 29 2007 at 2:34 PM
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jeena  (no login)

 
I just visited Westwood Memorial and saw Natalie's grave, so my curiosity regarding her death was piqued.

I read in one of her on-line bio's that she divorced Wagner the first time due to his affair with a man. It made me think of the yacht, and maybe Natalie witnessed intimacy going on between Wagner and Walken, got angry, and attempted to leave the boat by accessing the dinghy.

Is anyone else aware that the reported reason Natalie divorced Wagner the first time was over his affair with a man?

 
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Eve
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 6:02 AM 

This first came to light in Suzanne Finstad book "Natasha". There were, however, rumors about Wagner's bi-sexuality early in his career and they continue to this day. As Finstad wrote it, Natalie was upstairs in their bedroom. She awoke to find him gone. She went downstairs and found him in a compromising situation with a man. This, ofcourse, devastated Natalie. She told her mother about it but made her mom promise never to reveal it to anyone. Natalie took the rap for the break-up. The rumor was that she had an affair with Warren Beatty and that led to the break-up. The truth was that she did not begin dating Beatty until after they separated. She apparently forgave Wagner because they got back together ten years later and remained so until her death. I know a few people who live and work in LA who say that Wagner still goes both ways...and at times is not overly discreet about it. They also say that he is not the prince that he appears to be. He has a dark side. He can be the nicest man when there is a show to put on, when fans are watching or when the flashbulbs are snapping but in reality he is a cold, bitter and at times calculating man who is torn with guilt over the death of his late wife.

 
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jeena
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 6:43 AM 

Very interesting comments, thank you for sharing. I went on a tour of celebrity homes while visiting Hollywood, and everyone was surprised when the tour guide told us the names of two married male Hollywood stars who are bi, or have been in the past (Wagner wasn't one of the names mentioned).


 
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Eve
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April 30 2007, 7:46 AM 

You'd be surprised at how many are bi....which is no big deal, really, but they try very hard to hide it because it could hurt their careers. I think it's hysterical that a tour guide would tell you that. LOL.

 
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Bee
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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March 9 2009, 12:22 AM 

This is interesting information. My first reading will be this Finstad's book. Will try to stop by on occasion. Any other suggested reading on this topic? (non-biased, preferably)

 
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Vlad
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 2:44 PM 

This is a very interesting subject. Natalie never gave a real explaination of why the marriage ended and for that fact neither has RJ, they both elude to Natalie needing therapy and RJ was against it, this is the most popular scenerio. The other scenerio is taht Natalie cought RJ with another man. Actions speak louder than words so lets look at this in reverse. When Natalie threw out Richard Gregson it was accelerated, she threw his clothes in the street, called the cops, had the locks changed, hired security. Now this is where it gets tricky and we really do not know what went on, none of us do. According to the most popular scripture after whatever happened Natalie called her mother (Mud) in tears and told her the marriage was over, next day or even same day RJ was out of the house and her life. Now if they were having problems (irreconcilable differences) the marriage should have ended peacefully especially considering their positions then again and we do not know it seemed to end abruptly. What do you all think?

 
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Maryanne
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 4:39 PM 

They have told why the marriage failed. They were having problems and Natalie wanted to get outside help and he was against it. She was rather young when they married, 19 years old. Her career was taking off and his was in the toilet. She was making more money that he was. He came from a family in which the man provided. It must have killed him that she made more money that he did at that point. The press was caught with their guard down by the break up. It was totally unexpected. Natalie went into seclusion and RJ cried on a few shoulders and then went to Europe. A while later she started going on personal appearance tours with Warren Beatty. Then they started dating. Both Wagner and Natalie said that the two-career thing is what really broke them up. But, who knows. RJ being found with a man by Nat would not be something they would broadcast. She told her parents and swore them to secrecy. In reality we don't know if this is true. Actually, it's rather unbelievable to me that a man would cheat on his wife in their own home with her upstairs in bed. I know this is Hollywood but it's a rather cruel and stupid to do. Is it possible, sure. Could it have been a way for Finstad to spice up her book, sure...or it could be a little of both.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 4:42 PM 

The only problem I have with the "Wagner is bi" angle is this: As Vlad posted, Natalie threw Gregson out on his ear, tossed his clothes out the window, and had the locks changed when she merely overheard a PHONE CALL about his infidelity. If the story Finstadt wrote about is true - that's Natalie actually caught RJ with a man - why would she have married him again? Whether with a man or woman, infidelity is infiedlity. I guess what I'm saying is: she was hurt so badly by Gregson's indiscretion, but yet she obviously wasn't equally as hurt by Wagner's because she married him again. Which makes me wonder whether it happened at all. I, for one, tend to doubt it.

I know some Natalie and/or RJ fans claim otherwise, but I had NEVER heard this given as a reason for the divorce, nor had I heard these types of rumors about Wagner, until Finstadt's book and the tabloid articles that were based on her accusations. And since the 70s, I've read my share of Natalie articles/stories. I'd be more likely to buy the angle if someone could produce something written prior to Finstadt's book that makes these claims. Until then, I chalk it up to Finstadt's sensationalizing, like many other items in her book (the rape story, for example).

 
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Maryanne
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 5:30 PM 

The difference with Gregson was the difference in Natalie in years between the divorce from Wagner and the divorce from Gregson. She was 31 when she married Gregson.She had been there and done that..19 with Wagner and had never had her heart broken before. The years made the difference. Wagner was her first real love and her first real heartbreak. She loved him very much. She loved Gregson also but it was not the love of a lifetime. When she married Wagner it was the love of a lifetime...he was her knight in shining armor. She adored him. I remember something that she said in an interview at that time when she was asked why she did not get a quickie divorce. She said that it's like the song says, "I'd grown accustomed to his face." Making the break from him was harder than making the break from Gregson.
I, agree, though about her re-marrying him...especially after all that she experienced in her life.
As far as Wagner being Bi....it's been talked about for years, long before Fenstad's book. And judging from Eve's post he seems to be still playing on both teams.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 5:54 PM 

But see, that's partially my point.

No disrespect to Eve, but what credibility does she have that would make us believe her posts? Anyone can claim whatever they want on a message board. I could just as easily post that I've heard "from friends in LA" just the opposite about Wagner. Or that I've heard "from friends in the industry" that Natalie was gay or bi. In fact, there have been rumors tossed around about Natalie being bisexual, but I don't believe them either. Because that's what they are - rumors. Short of proof, give me something concrete and I'd be more likely to believe them.

 
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Maryanne
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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April 30 2007, 7:10 PM 

There is a bit more to the Wagner stories, they are more widespread...There have been rumors about his as far back as his arrival in Hollywood...but who knows, really.

 
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Schuyler
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Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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August 20 2007, 4:00 PM 

Yes, but you can say that about any posts here, obviously none can be proved or disproved, all are feelings based on events and background info. RJ was (and is) bi-sexual, Natalie did find him with another man, and she re-married him years later because she has always been in love with him regardless and thought her love could change him...again.
You can believe whatever you choose to, but that really is the truth.

 
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Anonymous
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Wagner's sexual preferences

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August 13 2007, 4:04 PM 

Hi Joanne,

Still madly in love with RJ, eh? tsk tsk tsk...clouds your judgment. Wagner was and is bi, has been since he first set foot in Hollywood; Natalie knew this, obviously, and thought he had stopped being with other men, but on the yacht he was caught with Walken which blew her mind and caused her, in shock and horror, to get into the Zodiac which she never would have doine otherwise, alcohol or no. Everyone protected RJ; this selfish wholly untalented wooden actor has been given every benefit anyone can get, and so undeserving...he is a cold fish, and has lived his entire life on a pass due entirely to the generosity of others.

 
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Crhis
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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May 1 2007, 1:18 PM 

Natalie wrote that her first marriage to RJ was a disaster. She said at first RJ was prince charming, but it came back to hit her in the face. She said they were great in a crown, but when they were alone he barely said a word to her, she said it was a sad and lonely existence.
I've the feelings RJ Wagner has a dark side too

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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May 1 2007, 3:48 PM 

I guess the reason why she married him again is because she missed that "sad and lonely existance." Please......

 
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Maryanne
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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May 1 2007, 4:49 PM 

I go with Anonymous on this one...Those alleged personal papers that Lana gave to Finstad are fake. If Natalie was so miserably unhappy with him why would she go back for more. Natalie spent too much time in analysis to consciously put herself in a position in which she would be unhappy...Those papers were created to make a buck and they did.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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May 1 2007, 7:55 PM 

My point exactly, Maryanne. Some like to believe that Wagner had a svengali-like hold on Natalie; making her do things she didn't want to do. But I believe that she worked too hard on herself, through analysis and afterward, to be lead around like that. To me she was a strong woman who made wise decisions, not only in business but in her relationships too. Especially as she got older.

 
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Dale
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They Married eachother twice!

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May 24 2007, 1:58 PM 

I find this humorous to say he was bi, the guy had one of the smartiest women in the world and cutiest to boot and she married him not once but twice.

The man must of love her, and she must of loved him endlessly to marry eachother more then once to begin with and its a shame that to this day people think he actually might of murder her over another women please did you see the pictures of Nat she was amazing women.

Accidents happen all the time, it might not sell books or make a good story but really let her rest in peace! We can remember her and always keep her in our hearts.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 24 2007, 2:39 PM 

Great post....No matter what happened...and we will never know..nothing will bring her back...and we should let this great lady rest in peace and enjoy what she left us...

 
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Olivia
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 24 2007, 4:52 PM 

I don't think it's humorous to suggest RJ might be bisexual, it is to me, at least not something just horrible. I have a friend who found out her daughter was gay and she was devastated--I was kind of like, "I'd rather have her gay than a sexual predator, especially against children, a murderer or a racist." Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. Big deal.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 24 2007, 5:53 PM 

It's a big deal for someone from the era in which they were all in the closet...which was the era that RJ is a part of. This is especially true of someone who has based his career on fluffy sex appeal and good looks rather than real acting ability like let's say Steve McQueen and Paul Newman.

 
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Vlad
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 25 2007, 1:38 PM 

RJ bi or gay?, no way.An ass? you got it, responsible for the death of Natalie? you bet. Natalie, Marion and Jill have all made statements of how great a lover RJ is.

 
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Olivia
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 25 2007, 2:52 PM 

I get it that it was a big deal back then, but why is it an issue now? He is being bashed for posibly being bisexual. Trust me, I'm not RJ's biggest fan, but the reasons I don't care for him stem more from him being boring to me and that he didn't call immediatly after realizing Natalie was not on the boat.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 25 2007, 3:50 PM 

I agree with you, Olivia. He sucks as an actor and in my view he waited too long to call for help, he's responsible, he didn't hold her head under the water but he allowed her to die.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 25 2007, 4:06 PM 

I don't know about his sexuality..I think that it's odd that he moved in with Clifton Webb when he first started out. Webb was gay. why would a heterosexual man, good looking, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, move in with an older gay man. My point is he could have afforded his own place. Most men who leave their parent's home move into their own place. Also, I think the Barbara Stanwyck story is a exaggerated by Wagner to cover all those years before he met Natalie. Before her he dated very few women...All publicity dates, Terry Moore, Mona Freeman, Jayne Mansfield, all the actresses who were under contract to Fox dated RJ. Then he falls in love with Natalie and tells anyone who will listen that he had never been in love before and even years later after the second marriage he referred to Natalie as "my first love."....Then years later Finstad plants the seed that created the huge doubts about his sexuality, Stanwyck dies, he tells the world that she was his first love...He sings to the tune that sounds best at the moment. I'm not saying that he and Stanwyck were never romantic but he embellished this. I know a few people who have met him. When the cameras are not there, when he's not putting on a show for his fans he is cold, rude and arrogant.

 
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Olivia
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 4:11 PM 

I've heard the opposite of his behavior around fans. I know someone who said that they had visited the set of Switch, and Eddie Albert was the one who couldn't be bothered. But RJ was very accomodating and charming. But everyone has an off day, so perhaps both were caught on not their best days.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 6:35 PM 

Same here, Olivia. I'm no fan of Wagner, but everything I've read about the man portrays him as one of the nicest guys in Hollywood, especially when it comes to his fans. The only negative things I've read about him (and his supposed evil personality) are from disgruntled Natalie fans who, if they had their way, would blame him for global warming, AIDS, hang overs, and Monday morning blues.

 
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Maryanne
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 8:57 PM 

lol.....You need to read more...aside from what's said on the RJ yahoo group. And you are a Wagner fan because you're not here for Natalie, you said that yourself, and you constantly defend Wagner who is not the man you think he is. I wish someone would write a book about him that he has no control over. His Authorized bio will be a Wagner fluff piece in which he talks about how "wonderful" and "terrific" everyone is...please...He's loathsome..And as far as being nice to his fans...HELLO...part of the facade..I could tell you a few stories about how "nice" he is to people. You're in a fantasy world.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 9:10 PM 

You don't even know who I am. You are so blinded by Joanne, you think that anyone who posts anything here that is not an out and out bash of Wagner must be her. By my count, you've accused at least three different "anonymous" posters of being Joanne over the last few weeks. LOL. From reading the archives, Joanne is an ardent Wagner defender, and she may post here anonymously, but I am not her. You're obsession is humorous, though.

There are those of us who are Natalie fans, but NOT Wagner fans, AND we don't believe he killed her. Count me among that group. I am not a Wagner fan. Natalie loved him and he was part of her life, but I have no feelings for the man one way or another. However, my mind is open. If you have proof of something negative or sinister, spill it. If not, why are you wasting everyone's time with your insinuations?

 
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Maryanne
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 9:19 PM 

You are so full of it...If you are not a Natalie fan or a Wagner fan, why are you here? yeah, ok , sure...

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 9:25 PM 

When did I say I wasn't a Natalie fan? Re-read my post. I said there are those of us who are Natalie fans (that's are, A-R-E), but NOT Wagner fans, AND don't believe he killed her.

 
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Maryanne
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 9:35 PM 

You made the statement a while back. You're a Wagner fan stalking this site to defend your charm boy.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 9:53 PM 

Exactly when did I make that statement?

 
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sctrojan
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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October 19 2007, 5:15 AM 

deal with the fact that RJ is bi--reason he was in the Austin Powers movies is because of his affair with Mike Myers--who just left is wife & is burning up the streets of Hollywood with his new found love

 
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Roman S.
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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October 19 2007, 5:27 PM 

Oh, for goodness sakes. Alobster777, you believe this? If so, I have a few oil wells to sell you too. And a bridge in Brooklyn.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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October 19 2007, 7:00 PM 

The first AP movie came out in 1997 but Mike Myers and his wife didn't get divorced until 2005. I don't get your timeline. ?

 
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Anonymous
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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May 29 2007, 6:27 PM 

So Anonymous, if your post is any indication, you must believe that if you're friends with someone who's gay, you yourself must be gay. ?? Explain that logic, please.

 
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Maria
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Re: They Married eachother twice!

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October 3 2007, 6:27 PM 

Yea !
Explain that please !
Judging ! we all are judges !! Ok.
If you see RJ smiling all the time is a nice person and if he is mad once, is a bad person? Come on !
You all do not have bad days ? But, a murderer!!

 
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alobster777
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Re: His bisexuality...

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October 19 2007, 9:10 AM 

sctrojan

Where did you read Wagner had an affair with Mike Myers?

 
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Anonymous
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Re: His bisexuality...

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October 19 2007, 9:31 AM 

I have a few oil wells in my back yard that you might be interested in. You are so gullible.

 
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I agree with you.

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January 19 2009, 10:12 PM 

When I was growing up my brothers, who are both very straight and proud of it, use to make fun of Clifton Webb all the time and call him an old Queen. I know that they would never be caught death in, around, or having anything to do with him. I am not saying I dislike him. I liked his movies, but every time I tried to watch them one of my brothers would walk by and make fun of him and ask me why I was watching that old "Queen". So if R.J. did live with him then I assume he must have either been bi-sexual or was trying to use him to get himself in the movies, something a lot of men, even James Dean did back in the days. To this day I can't watch a Clifton Webb movie without hearing my brothers echo's and it is soo annoying.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: I agree with you.

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January 20 2009, 5:50 AM 

On a related note, I find it peculiar that, in his book, RJ randomly mentions the bisexuality of a few people. It's irrelevant in some cases, and sometimes has a homophobic feel. Honestly, it adds to my belief he is in fact bisexual. It's not something most people are preoccupied with noticing and pointing out in others (and most would be self-conscious of doing so in writing when there is no relevant context). The homophobic tone strikes me as the sort of homophobia someone would adopt to hide their own sexual preferences - like 'ew, gay - yuck' - as wellas reflecting a sense of self-loathing.

Here are the excerpts:

On James Dean (in a very brief passage, and not relevant to anything else being said): "Natalie never specifically alluded to it, but my impression of him was that he was bisexual".

On Nick Ray: "He was bisexual, with a drinking problem and a drug problem - a very confused and convoluted personality."

On Michael Anderson: "I was surprised by how effete he was, obviously bisexual at the very least".

 
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Anonymous
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Re: I agree with you.

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January 20 2009, 5:58 AM 

One more, on Clifton Webb: "Clifton was gay of course, but he never made a pass at me, not that he would have." LOL

 
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Anonymous
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Re: I agree with you.

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February 1 2009, 12:55 PM 

I've always felt that Wagner was a bit effeminate, especially in his early days. When he was in his 20s he looked a bit too feminine. He was a bit too pretty for my taste. In all fairness to him, most of the teen idols of that era had that look and many were in the closet and most were clients of Henry Willson, including Wagner.

In his book he seemed a bit too determined to out whomever he could. I found the story he told about Noel Coward putting his hand on Wagner's knee and asking if he was homosexual a bit hard to believe, a bit too convenient and bit unnecessary. It was almost like he was trying to assure the reader that he was heterosexual. Then he came around with all the kiss and tell. Most of the women he named are either too ill to care what he wrote or dead.

He mentioned Clifton Webb. He lived with Webb. They shared an apartment. Then there is Watson Webb. He was another gay man with whom Wagner had a very close friendship in the 50s and 60s. Watson was in love with Wagner. Watson was a very wealthy man.

Maybe someone will write a book to expose Mr. Wagner's secrets the same way Mr. Wagner did with so many others in his memoir.

 
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Glenda
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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November 11 2008, 12:59 PM 

Wagner is as BI as the Number 2. Come to think of it, he is a Number 2. LOL

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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November 11 2008, 5:08 PM 

Oh, how witty....

 
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THE REAL VLAD
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Robert Wagner

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March 3 2009, 11:40 AM 

He is a big old pouff.

 
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Bee
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Re: Robert Wagner

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March 9 2009, 12:24 AM 

Sending this message twice as I don't see what where the first one went. Not sure how it works here but...
this is interesting information. My first reading will be this Finstad's book. Will try to stop by on occasion. Any other suggested reading on this topic? (non-biased, preferably)

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Robert Wagner

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March 15 2009, 10:50 AM 

Finstad is a great start. Try to also get a copy of the Vanity Fair article by Sam Kashner, from March 2000. You should be able to find the issue on Ebay. Others here can probably direct you on how to source the original documents from the case, too.

 
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no name
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Re: Robert Wagner

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March 17 2009, 7:07 AM 

Why on earth do you idiots still care about this 30 year old case? Are you insane? Are you alone? Do you have no life? Can someone pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease explain to me why this case matters after 30 years? Who cares if she fell or was thrown overboard? Why does this case matter? I'm baffled, bewildered, and can't understand. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease,
someone explain! Is it hatred for RJ? Is it obsessive love for Nat? What? What is it??????????????????????????????????????????

 
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Olivia
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Re: Robert Wagner

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March 17 2009, 7:33 AM 

You might explain what you're doing here as well.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Robert Wagner

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March 19 2009, 8:44 AM 

no name, you idiot. i find your question of 'who cares what happened to her?' more bizarre than anyone who questions how on earth anyone could think it was rj who killed her. she was a beloved movie star whose beautiful qualities still resonate today and whose performances touched many, and she died young under legitimately suspicious circumstances. many people are interested in similar cases regardless of who the victim was simply because of outrage at the injustice. in this case, it is also a high profile person, therefore it is a widely known case and someone many already cared about.

if justice is achievable, i.e. the perpetrator of the crime is still alive, it should of course be pursued. that should be obvious whether you believe rj is guilty or not.

sorry we can't all be putting our energies into what you clearly consider a more worthwhile pursuit of joining discussions you don't care about simply to demonstrate how superior you are in lacking the compassion and sense of justice they have. hope you enjoyed yourself.

 
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What's wrong with you?

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March 21 2009, 8:03 PM 

I think the problem isn't with us but with you. You are the one who is seeing through rose colored glasses and that is fine for you but the rest of love, respect, admire and miss Natalie Wood. We still watch her movies and miss her. It seems as if you don't have a life if you have to go on and belittle us. I work, I have a family and have many hobbies. I have admired Natalie Wood since I was young and I still admire her(and I am a lot older now). It seems to me that you are upset because some of the things we are saying are TRUE. It hurt doesn't it, but that does not mean we have to stop. If you don't like us paying our respects to Natalie and her enormous talent then do us all a favor and LEAVE.

 
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no name
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 5:24 AM 

If one of you . . . .just ONE . . . can give me ONE solid reason to believe that justice wasn't served in this matter, I might be better able to understand. I have hobbies too but one of them isn't beating a dead horse. I liked Natalie Wood, but I still don't get why her death is so controversial. I don't understand if it's just people who like to whine and pine about things, or people who like to START controversy, or if you all just like to hurt RJ Wagner because he lived and his wife didn't. Do you all REALLY think he killed his wife? Come on now, it just isn't possible. Some people just die before their time. Rational people accept it. Do you all not think it's irrational to even bother with this story further? She is gone, been gone, and will not return. Enjoy her movies. . . celebrate her life, but maybe leave her quite understandable death alone?

 
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Anonymous
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 8:26 AM 

It isn't possible? That's absurd! Of course it's possible but Wagner fans want it to be impossible because ignorance is bliss. Robert Wagner has lied so much over the past 27 years that he has contradicted himself. When a person is telling the truth that does not happen.
Yes, she's gone and he lived and in his life since her death he has lied to cover up the truth about what actually happened that night. He is leaving out a very crucial part of the story of the night Natalie died. He left it out when he told the police also. Did you know that he lied to the police? Did you know that he told them that there was no argument that night but 20 years later he admitted that there was an argument, he admitted that he broke the bottle in anger. He told the police that the bottle fell because of rough seas. He lied, why would an innocent man lie? HMMMMMM. Oh and did you know that the story about the broken bottle was changed for his auto-bio? In his book he said that he broke the bottle and he told Walken to stay out of Natalie's career. When he told Gavin Lambert about the bottle he admitted that he said "what are you trying to do, **** my wife". HMMMM. He seems to change his stories regularly. I wonder why? Why would an innocent man lie? Maybe it's Wagner's fault that people question what happened that night, maybe people wonder why an innocent man would lie and alter his version of what happened the night his wife died? Maybe people wonder why an innocent man would lie to the police? HMMMMM.

 
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no name
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 6:46 PM 

Then why in the hell don't the police do something about it? If he lied that much, why wouldn't the police check into his lies? To be honest, I didn't know all this. I am not an ignorance is bliss person. Apparently, I am just ignorant. I just can't stand conspiracy theories and I suppose I figured Natalie's case is one of them. You have me wondering now. Do you know why the police let this go?

 
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Vlad
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 6:53 PM 

It was not let go. Natalie's death was an accident, simple and clear. If it was anything other than that proper measures would have been taken, movie star or not, foul play is foul play and there was none. Vlad know.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 7:38 PM 

Her death was not an accident. You obviously do not know the facts. There are too many lies that have been told by Wagner for it to have been an accident. Why would he lie if there was nothing to lie about, if it were an accident. But you go ahead and believe that Wagner is being truthful, you're a fool if you believe that he is telling the truth but you're a fool no matter what you think.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 7:02 PM 

who is talking about conspiracy? The only conspiracy was to keep all the lies hidden. Wagner revealed a few of them, but not all of them, twenty years later.
He lied to the police and they believed him. You have no idea what was over looked because Wagner was crying. The police felt sorry for him then but I wonder if they feel so sorry for him now, if the know that he lied about some very relevant details. The police are probably embarrassed by the way this case was handled. Wagner conned them, he lied about things that should have been double checked. Natalie had bruises all over her body but Wagner was not checked for marks on his body. He should have been examined. Celebrity played a big role in this case PLUS the police were gullible.

 
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Vlad
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 6:50 PM 

That is the biggest bunch of rubbish I have ever read.Vlad know.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: What's wrong with you?

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March 22 2009, 7:31 PM 

Vlad obviously does not know because every word is true. You have no idea what's true and what is not. You are a big bully who professes to know it all but judging from some of what you have written, you know nothing. You're a big blow hard bully who thinks he is the boss but from what I have seen, you are a big joke.

 
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Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 12:36 AM 

One of the reasons most of us feel that R.J. had a role in her death is because as most of these post state is that he has been dishonest. In Hollywood all the celebrities there believe that her death was "murder" and even the 2 men who found her body felt that way. The first thing they said when they found her was "I bet he killed her". They found her body. Why would they say that if they hadn't suspected foul play. As for Daven, Wagner kept him prisoner in his house and would not let him leave without him or his lawyer. Would you tell the truth if someone was keeping you prisoner? Too many unanswered questions and it still seems as if Wagner is not telling the truth. I watched an ad for his new book and he stated that he would tell the truth about Natalie's death but he never even talked about her. It was if he couldn't face the truth. Also when Natalie first died he wanted to run away. That is not the action of a innocent man. He stayed because he knew how it would look. When I first started reading about it I believed he was innocent but I don't anymore. The more I read the more I think he had something to do with her death. It matters to me how she was killed because we lost a great actress and as her fan I would like to know the TRUTH, as I think most of would. My brothers always said it will all come out when he dies and I am sure then everyone will start telling us he was involved. I wonder what the R.J. fan's will say then? We will just have to wait and see, but I for one, believe that he had something to do with her death and I will never, ever forgive him for that.

 
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an informed voice
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 7:58 PM 

This entire site is pathetic. However, it is a perfect example of the telephone game - someone hears something and passes it on, albeit sightly changed because the person they heard it from was misinformed, or they didn't hear it correctly, or they're too stupid to understand what they've heard. (To 99% of the people on this site - feel free to apply any of the aforementioned to yourself.)

First and foremost, Wagner hasn't changed his story. The statements put out right after the accident that you're attributing to Wagner actually came from his SPOKESMAN. Understand the difference between that and a direct first-hand quote?

Wagner has NEVER, EVER spoken publicly in detail about what happened that night. Still hasn't. (The closest he came was on Charlie Rose, but even that wasn't detailed.) He spoke in detail to Lambert and now has written about it in his book, but those two instances stand alone. Now for all the conspiracy theorists out there, I thoroughly understand that they're not the details that fit YOUR demented scenario, but they are first-hand. Get over it.

As for Lambert's book, Wagner didn't give him the "what are you trying to do? F*** my wife!" line. In fact, that's not even in Lambert's book. The direct quote from Wagner about the wine bottle incident that Lambert includes in his book is consistent with what Wagner wrote in his own book - telling Walken to stay out of Natalie's career (see pgs 310 and 311 of Lambert's book, hardcover, 1st edition). Sorry to burst your bubble, but again, there's no contradiction.

As for what he told the police - you have no idea what he told the police or how and when they interviewed him. We're you there? Have you read the police report? No on both accounts. But you've certainly heard or read things over the years from other uninformed people on the internet and believe it to be "fact" and continue to pass it along as such. Gullible, irresponsible idiots.

Next, Walken and Wagner WERE checked by police for signs of a physical altercation. Noguchi specifically said that at his press conference. He said there were no injuries or evidence of a physical altercation on either man's body. But hey, why let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

Finally, the story about Wagner holding Davern hostage in his house? Please. Another demented internet fantasy that has made the rounds and become "fact" to the uninformed and/or anyone hoping to find "evidence" of foul play.

Keep moving because there's no crime scene here. Go find another hobby.





 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 8:44 PM 

You are wrong. Dennis was by RJ's side at RJ's request for a long time. RJ was afraid of because he knew the press was after Davern for info about that night.
Wagner has changed his story. Early on told the police he thought that she went to Doug's but in his book he said that he knew that she would never go off in the dinghy because she was afraid of dark water.
He also stated that he knew that she had not gone off in they dinghy when he was told that she was wearing a nightgown but in his book he claimed that he saw her in the nightgown.
In Lambert's book Wagner said that Natalie got up and left after he broke the bottle but in his book he said that she was not there when he broke the bottle.
He told the police that rough seas caused the bottle to break. Twenty years later he admitted that he broke the bottle in anger.
The spokesperson spoke for Wagner. His PR and his lawyers felt that a statement was necessary at that time.
The men on the boat were NOT checked for marks. Noguchi is lying and that was not the only lie he told. The general public has no idea what went on. Have you ever read the article written by one of Natalie's former PR people? His last name is Epstein. The article was for a film magazine. He spoke with Rasure. Do you know what Rasure told him about Noguchi, what Noguchi lied about? PLEASE!
Gullible is the word I use to describe Wagner's devoted fans. You have no idea what went on that night. And don't tell me what I know and what I've seen and what I've read. You have no idea.
Stay in your Wagner fantasy world.



 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 9:17 PM 

and one more thing. You brought Noguchi's press conference. He revealed that there was an argument on the boat. A detective, I believe it was Wilson, said that the police did not know about any argument. He said that the coroner may have been juicing it up a bit. Obviously the police were not told about the argument but in the next breath Wilson said that it was a non-violent argument and that it was not over Natalie. Wrong on both counts. It was violent and it was over her. It sounds like someone lied.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 9:35 PM 

It is not uncommon for police to deny something in public in order to protect an on-going investigation. Believe me, I know.

The police knew about the argument, but it wasn't relevant to her death nor necessary for the public to know about and misinterpret (as you and others have done and continue to do so). Sounds juicy and makes for a good story, but it was not at all related to her death.

Let's say a husband and wife have an argument and the wife goes to bed. She gets up a short time later, goes outside, and is killed by a falling branch from a tree. Yes, they argued before hand, but does the argument have ANYTHING to do with her death? No.

Viewed in that context, I am not at all surprised that the police were downplaying it. There was no need to sensationalize something that didn't need to be sensationalized any more than it already was (and still is, by people like you).

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 11:25 PM 

and how do you know that it was not relevant to her death. The argument showed Wagner's anger. The argument was the beginning of the end for Natalie. It was very relevant.
Who is sensationalizing? I'm stating fact. It was Noguchi's revelation of the argument that caused him to be demoted. He must have felt that it was relevant.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 5:17 PM 

How do you know that the argument WAS relevant to her death? It wasn't, and the police agreed. Case closed.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 9:24 PM 

Oh please, knock off that Wagner fantasy world stuff. Try to stay on topic.

My responses are in caps:

You are wrong. Dennis was by RJ's side at RJ's request for a long time. RJ was afraid of because he knew the press was after Davern for info about that night. NO, I'M NOT WRONG. "AT HIS SIDE" AND "KEEPING HIM PRISONER IN HIS HOUSE" ARE TWO VERY, VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Wagner has changed his story. Early on told the police he thought that she went to Doug's but in his book he said that he knew that she would never go off in the dinghy because she was afraid of dark water. HE SAID IN HIS BOOK THAT THE DINGHY WAS MISSING AND SO WAS NATALIE AND HE INITIALLY WONDERED IF SHE TOOK IT. THEN HE THOUGHT 'NO WAY'. HOWEVER, IF SHE WASN'T ON THE BOAT, WHERE ELSE WOULD SHE BE BUT THE DINGHY? (PG 256). AS UNLIKELY AS THAT WOULD BE, IT WAS A REASONABLE ASSUMPTION (REASONABLE BEING THE KEYWORD, SOMETHING IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOU'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH.)

He also stated that he knew that she had not gone off in they dinghy when he was told that she was wearing a nightgown but in his book he claimed that he saw her in the nightgown. NO, IN THE BOOK HE SAID HE SAW HER FIXING HER HAIR AS SHE GOT READY FOR BED. HE DID NOT SAY SHE WAS IN HER NIGHTGOWN (PG 256). FOR GOODNESS SAKE, LEARN TO READ WHAT'S ACTUALLY WRITTEN, NOT WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY.

In Lambert's book Wagner said that Natalie got up and left after he broke the bottle but in his book he said that she was not there when he broke the bottle. LAMBERT'S ACCOUNT ISN'T AN ACTUAL TIMELINE. ON PAGES 310-311 WAGNER TELLS LAMBERT THE STORY OF THE WINE BOTTLE (LAMBERT USES DIRECT QUOTES FROM WAGNER). BUT WAGNER ISN'T QUOTED AS SAYING THAT IT WAS AFTER HE BROKE THE BOTTLE THAT NATALIE LEFT. LAMBERT SAYS THAT NATALIE LEFT DURING THE ARGUMENT, BUT HE DOESN'T SAY IT WAS SPECIFICALLY AFTER OR BECAUSE OF THE BOTTLE WAS BROKEN (NO QUOTES ARE USED BY LAMBERT HERE.) SO ONCE AGAIN, YOU'RE INTERPRETING THINGS THE WAY YOU CHOOSE TO IN ORDER TO SERVE YOUR PURPOSE. ON THE SAME PAGE (311) LAMBERT GIVES TWO ACCOUNTS FROM WALKEN THAT VARY SLIGHTLY. IS HE TOO CHANGING HIS STORY??? NO, ONE HAS MORE DETAIL AND ONE HAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TIMELINE, WHICH IS NOT AT ALL UNCOMMON WHEN SOMEONE IS RELAYING A STORY (UNLESS OF COURSE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR AMMUNITION TO BACK YOUR DEMENTED CONSPIRACY. THEN IS RANKS RIGHT UP THERE WITH HIGH TREASON.)

He told the police that rough seas caused the bottle to break. Twenty years later he admitted that he broke the bottle in anger. WHO SAID? THE STAR? PLEASE...GIVE ME A DIRECT QUOTE FROM WAGNER SAYING THIS. I'LL SAVE YOU THE TIME. THERE ISN'T ONE.

The spokesperson spoke for Wagner. His PR and his lawyers felt that a statement was necessary at that time. YES, SPOKE "FOR HIM", BUT NOT WITH HIS WORDS. HIS PR? THERE WAS NO "PR". HIS AND NATALIE'S LAWYER (AND FRIEND) PAUL ZIFFREN RELEASED A STATEMENT A FEW DAYS AFTER THE ACCIDENT WHICH PUT FORTH THE BANGING DINGHY THEORY. BUT THE STATEMENT WAS ZIFFREN'S WORDS, NOT WAGNER'S. AND, BY THE WAY, THE DINGHY THEORY WAS ALSO IN WAGNER'S BOOK (PG 260). SOUNDS CONSISTENT TO ME. BUT, OF COURSE, I'M SURE YOU'LL JUST SAY HE'S COVERING HIS TRACKS.

The men on the boat were NOT checked for marks. Noguchi is lying and that was not the only lie he told. The general public has no idea what went on. Have you ever read the article written by one of Natalie's former PR people? His last name is Epstein. The article was for a film magazine. He spoke with Rasure. Do you know what Rasure told him about Noguchi, what Noguchi lied about? PLEASE! CONVENIENT HOW ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU ARE LYING, ISN'T IT? YOU DISREGARD A DIRECT QUOTE FROM NOGUCHI, PART OF THE INVESTIGATIVE TEAM, BUT WANT TO BELIEVE A THIRD HAND ACCOUNT FROM A FORMER ASSISTANT IN A FILM MAGAZINE! HOW PATHETIC.

Gullible is the word I use to describe Wagner's devoted fans. You have no idea what went on that night. And don't tell me what I know and what I've seen and what I've read. You have no idea. Stay in your Wagner fantasy world.
GULLIBLE IS THE WORD I USE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO USE, TO DESCRIBE PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE SO DESPERATE TO BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING UNTOWARD HAPPENED THAT YOU'LL GRAB ONTO EVEN THE THINNEST INTERNET RUMOR IN ORDER TO SUPPORT YOUR THEORY. YOU DO REALIZE, DON'T YOU, THAT THERE IS JUST A SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF WHO FEED OFF EACH OTHER AND KEEP THIS RIDICULOUS THEORY ALIVE? WAKE UP AND SEE THE LIGHT: IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.



 
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Wake up and smell the coffee

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March 23 2009, 10:26 PM 

I am sorry but nothing you can tell me will change my mind. I do not believe it was an accident. I believe that R.J., who should have protected Natalie from dark water, didn't and that is the worse betrayal of all. It hurts all of us (her fans) to think that the person she loved was responsiblile and we are angry at him for that and for taking her away from us. He should have been there protecting her but he was drunk and he was more concerned about his career, reputation than his wife. It's very sad but it seems as if Natalie was always covering for him. Too bad. I, for one, did not want to believe that he did it but as I read more and more about what happened that night I can only come to one conclusion and that is that somehow, someway he was involved. You can say whatever you want but you never address our concerns all you say is that we are keeping the conspirary theory alive. I think you are the one who needs to get a life and open your eyes. I guess maybe I should go on the R.J website and put him down as you are doing to Natalie's memory. If you don't like what you hear you can leave. At least we are ON Natalie's website and don't stoop to your level which makes most of us a lot better than you. Why do you care what we believe? How are we hurting you. It's our OPINION and we are entitled to it unless you have an ulterior motive.

 
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a reasonable voice
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Re: Wake up and smell the coffee

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March 24 2009, 5:08 PM 

Marsha - my responses in caps....

I am sorry but nothing you can tell me will change my mind. I do not believe it was an accident. I'M NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND, MARSHA. THERE IS NO TALKING TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I AM, HOWEVER, COUNTERING THE NONSENSE SPEWED ON THIS SITE. THE PEOPLE WHO VISIT HERE DESERVE TO READ BOTH SIDES AND NOT JUST
THE ONE-SIDED LYNCH MOB WITH NO FACTS ON THEIR SIDE. INSTEAD, PEOPLE LIKE NINA HAVE A BUNCH OF 'MAYBES' ON THEIRS.

I believe that R.J., who should have protected Natalie from dark water, didn't and that is the worse betrayal of all. WELL GUESS WHAT - SO DOES HE! DID YOU READ HIS BOOK? BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS: HE WASN'T THERE AND HE HAS TO LIVE WITH THAT GUILT.

It hurts all of us (her fans) to think that the person she loved was responsiblile and we are angry at him for that and for taking her away from us. He should have been there protecting her but he was drunk and he was more concerned about his career, reputation than his wife. It's very sad but it seems as if Natalie was always covering for him. Too bad. I, for one, did not want to believe that he did it but as I read more and more about what happened that night I can only come to one conclusion and that is that somehow, someway he was involved. You can say whatever you want but you never address our concerns all you say is that we are keeping the conspirary theory alive. I think you are the one who needs to get a life and open your eyes. I guess maybe I should go on the R.J website and put him down as you are doing to Natalie's memory. I AM IN NO WAY PUTTING DOWN NATALIE'S MEMORY. IF ANYTHING, I'M TRYING TO ALLOW HER TO REST IN PEACE. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO CAN'T ACCEPT THAT. WHY IS THAT? LET THE POOR WOMAN REST AND LET HER FAMILY REST. JEEZ....

If you don't like what you hear you can leave. At least we are ON Natalie's website and don't stoop to your level which makes most of us a lot better than you. AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE TO HEAR A COUNTERING OPINION, YOU CAN LEAVE TOO.

Why do you care what we believe? How are we hurting you. It's our OPINION and we are entitled to it unless you have an ulterior motive. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK AND AS I SAID BEFORE, I REALIZE THAT NOTHING I WRITE IS GOING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. THAT ISN'T MY INTENTION. AS I WROTE ABOVE, I WANT TO DOCUMENT THE FACTS FOR OTHERS WHO VISIT HERE. THEY SHOULD SEE BOTH SIDES.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 23 2009, 11:06 PM 

In Lambert's book RJ said that he slammed the bottle after telling Walken to stay out of it, then he said that Walken did not stay out of it, that he kept it up and Natalie was sitting there not saying anything. In his book Natalie has good below deck before RJ smashed the bottle.

In his book he said that he wondered if she took the dinghy but said to himself "no way BUT he told the police that she must have gone to the bar. That's a reasonable assumption to you, that a woman who could not swim and was petrified of dark water would go back to shore in a dinghy by herself without telling anyone where she was going? Yeah, OK. that's reasonable.

I don't read The Star. Rasure made the statement. That's what he was told by Wagner. Rasure had no idea that there was a serious argument on that boat because Wagner and Davern lied to him. Wagner told the police that the trip over to the island was very rough and that during the course of the trip several wine bottles had been knocked over due to rough seas.

We're talking about different statements. You're talking about the statement that ziffren made that was televised. He was in such bad shape that he fell all over himself. He loved Natalie dearly. He believed that lies that RJ told him. The statement I'll talking about was the first statement RJ gave a few weeks after Natalie died. It was in the NY Daily News.

Why would the man who wrote the article lie? He spoke in detail with Rasure and he was told that Noguchi lied about something very important. It did not come from a third hand, it came from Rasure.

You have no idea what happened that night. Wagner lied and continues to lie. Believe what you please but I'm convinced that he is culpable in her death.



 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 1:05 AM 

I don't think he meant to kill her. I think he was very drunk and lost control of himself.
I read his book. He seemed to be very possessive of her, almost obsessed. Maybe the combination of his drunkenness and his possessiveness caused him to lose sense of what he was doing. Maybe he pushed her in the water, walked away in anger, came back a few minutes later and she was gone. Maybe he panicked and untied the dinghy to make it look like she went for a ride. Maybe that's why it took him so long to call the Coast Guard. His emotions must have been all over the place, grief, anger, fear. He probably regretted it but it was too late. I do think he killed her but he did not mean to.
If he was sober maybe he would have used better sense.
Natalie was and is a favorite of mine. I used to like RJ but not so much anymore. It was his book that convinced me that he did harm to her. It showed how possessive he was and it showed how out of control he got when he was drunk and angry. You could see it in the Beatty story, you could see what he was capable of when he was drunk.
Please don't attack me. I am expressing how I feel and why. It has nothing to do with what I have read here. Like I said, I had my doubts but RJ's book convinced me.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 4:42 AM 

RJ's book convinced me, too, that he is culpable in Natalie's death. I think he is full of remorse, tho, to this day, and is trying to clean up his guilt. But I have no doubt after his book that he's trying to release some of that guilt. His interviews scream of his guilt. It's painful to watch. I don't know a whole lot about boats but I do know that sports fisher boats, same size and make as RJ's boat are different than what's been told in the books thus far published. Their bedroom was the rear master stateroom. From the main saloon you actually do go below deck when going to this particular stateroom. But (and you can all check this)"going below" means nothing more than stepping a few feet away to get to the stateroom. Going below means taking one or two steps down FROM the main saloon and then you are IN the master stateroom. During all of the hubbub, RJ and Natalie, even if in separate rooms (Saloon and stateroom) weren't more than 15 feet apart on a boat that size. These are the details RJ quietly and efficiently keeps hidden. He subtly lets you all think Natalie was far below where he couldn't see or hear her. She was a mere 10 feet away.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 4:59 PM 

Read the book, moron. He does say she walked down three steps to get to the stateroom. But hey, why let facts stand in your way.

As for his behaviior in interviews - would it be easy for you to talk about the worst night of your life on national TV? About the night you lost your wife and the mother of your children? I'd be more concerned if he did it with ease. But again, continue to see what you want to see. Everyone needs a hobby and you seem to have found yours.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 4:56 PM 

Nina, honestly - Maybe? That's what you're basing your theory on? Maybe??

Hey, MAYBE a giant cow fell from the sky and knocked her into the water.

Or how about this - MAYBE it was an accident.

Yes, Wagner had been drinking, but let's not forget: so had Natalie. In your eyes is she not also somewhat responsible for her own safety?

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 5:03 PM 

I knew someone would be sarcastic. Look, you feel that it was an accident, I don't.
If someone pushes you in the water how can you be responsible for your own safety? I feel that he pushed her in anger. I feel that he was responsible for her death. Did he want her dead, no. But he was angry and drunk. I'm sure he regrets what happened.
It's not a theory as much as it is a gut feeling.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 5:15 PM 

Well, you might "feel" it, Nina, but where are your facts? Where is the evidence? You can "feel" all you want, but it doesn't make it so.

Here's a more accurate question: If no one PUSHES you into the water and instead you FALL IN on your own, how are you responsible for your own safety? On a boat - I'd begin with: don't get drunk. And that goes for all on board. Had none of them been drinking (and Natalie has to be included in that category) she'd probably be alive today.

It was an accident exacerbated by the alcohol consumed by ALL on board. End of story.

But hey, I understand that blaming Wagner makes a better story. An "accident" doesn't sell books and tabloid nor does it allow a pathetic theory to be kept alive for going on 28 years.

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 6:00 PM 

why do I have to present facts? I didn't say that it's true because I feel it's true. There is no need to be so paranoid. It is my feeling that he lost control in anger and drunkenness and pushed his wife who could not swim in very cold water. Also, the long wait to before contacting the Coast Guard is rather suspicious. It's not like she went to the mall and was late coming home. The long wait make me think that he knew where she was. He waited 4 hours to call the Coast Guard. They were called at 3:30. He sent out a message over the airways that some one was missing and people who worked on the island searched but it was primarily a land search. Four hours is too long, two hours is too long. The poor woman must have been freezing when she was pushed in the water not to mention petrified. My sympathy is for her, not for him.
I'm not interested in stories.
I agree with you about the alcohol being a big part of what happened that night.
His own words tell how he loses control when he is intoxicated. If someone said to you that RJ waited in front of Beatty's house with a gun you would say that it was a lie, that it was a tabloid story. You would never believe it because you don't want to believe anything negative about him, anything that hints at a rather dark personality when angry and under the influence. But RJ told the story so it must be true, right? Be honest, would you believe that if you read it, if someone told you the story.
I know you feel that the police conclusion about accidental drowning is your proof that it was not foul play in any form. The police found that Marilyn Monroe's death was suicide. They were wrong in that case. You will probably insist that they are right because it supports your unconditional loyalty to RJ. There is no proof that Natalie's death was accidental. And as another person here pointed out, she had bruises on her body that have never been explained. And please don't give us Wagner's explanation.

You feel that he is innocent and a victim. I don't. I feel that he pushed her in the water in an alcohol fueled rage. You are entitled to your feelings, I am entitled to mine. Neither of us have proof.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 6:20 PM 

Why do I have to present facts? THIS SENTENCE IS SO LAUGHABLE IT DOESN'T EVEN DESERVE A RESPONSE, BUT LET'S TRY ONE ANYWAY. WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PRESENT FACTS? OH, I DON'T KNOW - BECAUSE YOU'RE CLAIMING A CRIME WAS COMMITTED, FOR STARTERS. I CAN JUST SEE A TRIAL IN NINA'S AMERICA - ATTORNEY: "YOUR HONOR, I FEEL THE DEFENDENT IS GUILTY." JUDGE: "WELL, YOUR FEELING IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME. NO EVIDENCE NEEDED. GUILTY!"

I didn't say that it's true because I feel it's true. There is no need to be so paranoid. ASKING FOR PROOF CAN HARDLY BE EQUATED TO PARANOIA.

It is my feeling that he lost control in anger and drunkenness and pushed his wife who could not swim in very cold water. FACTS? PROOF? ANYTHING BESIDES YOUR GUT?

Also, the long wait to before contacting the Coast Guard is rather suspicious. It's not like she went to the mall and was late coming home. The long wait make me think that he knew where she was. He waited 4 hours to call the Coast Guard. They were called at 3:30. He sent out a message over the airways that some one was missing and people who worked on the island searched but it was primarily a land search. Four hours is too long, two hours is too long. The poor woman must have been freezing when she was pushed in the water not to mention petrified. My sympathy is for her, not for him.
FIRST, IT WAS NOT FOUR HOURS BEFORE THEY CALLED FOR HELP. SECOND, THE DINGHY WAS MISSING AND SO WAS SHE. THE NIGHT BEFORE SHE WENT TO SHORE (GRANTED DAVERN WAS WITH HER, BUT SHE STILL WENT TO SHORE.) YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT, BUT IF YOU WERE ON BOARD AND FACED WITH THE SAME FACTS THEY WERE (NATALIE WASN'T ON BOARD AND THE DINGHY WAS GONE), CHANCES ARE YOU WOULD HAVE MADE THE SAME ASSUMPTIONS THEY DID. I THINK YOU, AND OTHERS, ARE BEING UNREASONABLE IN YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

I'm not interested in stories. NO, YOU JUST KEEP ON LISTENING TO YOUR 'FEELINGS'. I'M SURE THAT WILL GET YOU A LONG WAY TOWARD AN ANSWER.

I agree with you about the alcohol being a big part of what happened that night.

His own words tell how he loses control when he is intoxicated. If someone said to you that RJ waited in front of Beatty's house with a gun you would say that it was a lie, that it was a tabloid story. You would never believe it because you don't want to believe anything negative about him, anything that hints at a rather dark personality when angry and under the influence. But RJ told the story so it must be true, right? Be honest, would you believe that if you read it, if someone told you the story. HEARING A STORY SECOND OR THIRD-HAND AND HEARING A STORY FIRST-HAND ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. WAGNER'S STORY IN HIS BOOK IS FIRST HAND. GET THE DIFFERENCE? YOU MIGHT BELIEVE SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH AND EVEN TWENTY-SECOND HAND STORIES WITHOUT ANY CORROBORATION (AS YOUR "FEELINGS" ABOUT MARILYN MONROE'S DEATH PROVE). I PUT MORE FAITH IN FIRST-HAND STORIES AND ONES THAT HAVE BEEN CORROBORATED.

I know you feel that the police conclusion about accidental drowning is your proof that it was not foul play in any form. The police found that Marilyn Monroe's death was suicide. They were wrong in that case. AND YOUR FACTS WOULD BE? NEVERMIND, PROBABLY YOUR GUT TALKING AGAIN.

You will probably insist that they are right because it supports your unconditional loyalty to RJ. LOYALTY? BECAUSE I DON'T THINK HE KILLED HIS WIFE I'M A LOYAL, RABID FAN?

There is no proof that Natalie's death was accidental. And as another person here pointed out, she had bruises on her body that have never been explained. And please don't give us Wagner's explanation. OK, THEN HOW ABOUT FALLING INTO THE WATER AND HITTING AGAINST THE DINGHY AND ITS EQUIPMENT, OR TRYING TO CLIMB IN AND HITTING THE OARS OR MOTOR, OR TRYING TO HOLD ON TIGHTLY, OR TRYING TO CLIMB ONTO THE SWIM STEP. IF HE (OR ANYONE ELSE ON BOARD) BEAT HER, WOULD THEY HAVE REALLY HIT HER IN THE LEGS? PLEASE. SHE'D HAVE EVIDENCE OF BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA ON HER FACE AND BODY, NOT HER ARMS AND LEGS.

You feel that he is innocent and a victim. I don't. I feel that he pushed her in the water in an alcohol fueled rage. You are entitled to your feelings, I am entitled to mine. Neither of us have proof. NO, BUT I HAVE THE POLICE INVESTIGATIVE FINDINGS ON MY SIDE. BUT YOU STICK WITH YOUR GUT. I'M SURE YOU'LL CONVINCE A LOT OF PEOPLE.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 6:43 PM 

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything! You to be doing that. Yes, it is my gut feeling that he pushed her in the water. I'm not trying to change your mind, don't try to change mine. My goodness, lighten up a bit.
You can ridicule me if that makes you feel better. You feel that Wagner is innocent, I feel that he is guilty.
It has never been established as fact that Natalie tried to climb in the dinghy. That was theory or the gut feeling of the coroner. He has no way of knowing. Come to think of it, none of the police findings can be viewed as the "facts" that you are so hungry for because in reality no one knows for sure how she ended up in the water or if she paddled to where she was found or how long she was dead before she was found. There are no "facts" in this case as far as what caused Natalie's death. Even the police finding are littered with uncertainty. If you were to see Dr. Noguchi or Rasure and you were to ask them how Natalie Wood ended up in the water they would tell you that they don't know for certain because they weren't there. If you were to ask a policeman about how they come to conclusions most will tell you that they rely on gut instinct. The "facts" are not always there to see. They were not in Natalie's case. No one can tell you as a fact how she ended up in the water. With that, the police finding are not as concrete as you view them.



 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 7:45 PM 

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything! You to be doing that. Yes, it is my gut feeling that he pushed her in the water. I'm not trying to change your mind, don't try to change mine. My goodness, lighten up a bit. I'M NOT HERE TO CONVINCE YOU OF ANYTHING OR CHANGE YOUR MIND. (BUT SINCE I'VE ONLY TYPED THAT ABOUT 11 TIMES IN THE LAST 24 HOURS, I CAN SEE HOW YOU COULD HAVE OVERLOOKED IT. *SHAKING HEAD*). I'M SIMPLY OFFERING A COUNTERING OPINION FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS WHO VISIT THIS SITE AND MAY NOT KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. OTHERWISE ALL THEY'D SEE ARE YOUR "FEELINGS" AND THE OTHER RIDICULOUS THEORIES POSTED HERE.

You can ridicule me if that makes you feel better. You feel that Wagner is innocent, I feel that he is guilty.

It has never been established as fact that Natalie tried to climb in the dinghy. That was theory or the gut feeling of the coroner. He has no way of knowing. NEWSFLASH: I DON'T THINK SHE WAS ATTEMPTING TO BOARD THE DINGHY. NEITHER DOES WAGNER, FOR THE RECORD.

Come to think of it, none of the police findings can be viewed as the "facts" that you are so hungry for because in reality no one knows for sure how she ended up in the water or if she paddled to where she was found or how long she was dead before she was found. There are no "facts" in this case as far as what caused Natalie's death. Even the police finding are littered with uncertainty. If you were to see Dr. Noguchi or Rasure and you were to ask them how Natalie Wood ended up in the water they would tell you that they don't know for certain because they weren't there. EXACTLY. BUT - AND HERE'S THE THING YOU DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND - IN ORDER TO CHARGE A CRIME, YOU NEED EVIDENCE! YOU HAVE NONE. ALL KNOWN FACTS LEAD TO THE CONCLUSION OF THE INVESTIGATORS - IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.

If you were to ask a policeman about how they come to conclusions most will tell you that they rely on gut instinct. The "facts" are not always there to see. They were not in Natalie's case. No one can tell you as a fact how she ended up in the water. With that, the police finding are not as concrete as you view them. NO, MOST WILL TELL YOU THEY DEVELOP A THEORY BASED ON INSTINCT GUIDED BY KNOWN FACTS. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW. BUT - AND THIS IS A BIG BUT - GUT INSTINCT DOESN'T HOLD UP IN COURT. FOR THAT YOU NEED EVIDENCE. AGAIN, YOU HAVE NONE. MAYBE I'M ASSUMING YOU ARE FROM AMERICA AND AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH OUR COURT SYSTEM. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY RULES THE DAY. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE STATE, NOT THE DEFENDANT. YOU "FEEL" WAGNER PUSHED HER, BUT THAT ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. YOU NEED TO PROVE IT.

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 7:59 PM 

The Coast Guard was called at 3:30. She was allegedly found to be missing at approx 11:30. That's 4 hours. As I said RJ did place a radio call but that call resulted in a search of the shore area.
Yes, Natalie went ashore the night before but the big difference is that RJ knew where she was going and knew that she was not alone. The night she died he allegedly had no idea where she was, she did not tell him she was leaving nor did she leave a note or any indication that she was leaving. It was approx 11:30, it was dark and it was very cold. She could not swim, she was petrified of dark water, she was under the influence of alcohol and he knew all of this. Common sense would have told a person of even average intelligence that this was a dangerous situation. My husband swims very well but if he disappeared from a boat in the middle of the night without telling anyone I would have called for professional help sooner than 4 hours. I think most people would. It has nothing to do with hindsight, it has to do with common sense and love and concern for one's partner.
That's one of the reasons why I feel that he knew where she was.
Do I know for a "fact" that he killed her, no. Do you know for a "fact" that he did not, no. My feeling is that he did something to contribute to her death. I have no proof nor do you have proof that he did not. You have your feelings based on the police findings and Wagner's word. I have my feelings based on the time frame of the search, Wagner's admission that he had no idea what happened but waited a very long time to notify anyone. Wagner's admitted history of violent, dark behavior when he was drunk and angry and his possessiveness which as he sketched out in his book seemed almost obsessive.


There are no facts that support your feeling and police findings because no one knows how she ended up in the water. That's the question that can never be answered even by the police because they were not there. No one knows how she ended up in the water.
We can go back and forth with this. You can keep insulting me because I feel differently about Natalie's death but that won't change the fact that you know no more than I do, you have no more fact than I have. Wagner's word is gospel to you. Because "RJ said" does not make it true, does not make it a "fact".

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 8:08 PM 

You're completely missing my point about when facts are important and who is required to produce them. My previous statements stand and speak for themselves for any reasonable person willing to accept them.

And BTW, regardin your husband and his swimming abilities. If he and your dinghy were both gone, would you immediately call the coast guard or would you assume he took it?

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 6:02 PM 

why do I have to present facts? I didn't say that it's true because I feel it's true. There is no need to be so paranoid. It is my feeling that he lost control in anger and drunkenness and pushed his wife who could not swim in very cold water. Also, the long wait to before contacting the Coast Guard is rather suspicious. It's not like she went to the mall and was late coming home. The long wait make me think that he knew where she was. He waited 4 hours to call the Coast Guard. They were called at 3:30. He sent out a message over the airways that some one was missing and people who worked on the island searched but it was primarily a land search. Four hours is too long, two hours is too long. The poor woman must have been freezing when she was pushed in the water not to mention petrified. My sympathy is for her, not for him.
I'm not interested in stories.
I agree with you about the alcohol being a big part of what happened that night.
His own words tell how he loses control when he is intoxicated. If someone said to you that RJ waited in front of Beatty's house with a gun you would say that it was a lie, that it was a tabloid story. You would never believe it because you don't want to believe anything negative about him, anything that hints at a rather dark personality when angry and under the influence. But RJ told the story so it must be true, right? Be honest, would you believe that if you read it, if someone told you the story.
I know you feel that the police conclusion about accidental drowning is your proof that it was not foul play in any form. The police found that Marilyn Monroe's death was suicide. They were wrong in that case. You will probably insist that they are right because it supports your unconditional loyalty to RJ. There is no proof that Natalie's death was accidental. And as another person here pointed out, she had bruises on her body that have never been explained. And please don't give us Wagner's explanation.

You feel that he is innocent and a victim. I don't. I feel that he pushed her in the water in an alcohol fueled rage. You are entitled to your feelings, I am entitled to mine. Neither of us have proof.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 5:36 PM 

In Lambert's book RJ said that he slammed the bottle after telling Walken to stay out of it, then he said that Walken did not stay out of it, that he kept it up and Natalie was sitting there not saying anything. In his book Natalie has good below deck before RJ smashed the bottle. I'LL TRY TO TYPE SLOWER SINCE YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING MY POINT. LAMBERT'S BOOK DOES NOT USE QUOTES FROM WAGNER REGARDING THE TIME LINE OF NATALIE'S DEPARTURE, WHICH MEANS HE COULD HAVE USED ANOTHER FIRST OR SECOND HAND SOURCE (WITHOUT USING A DIRECT QUOTE), OR PURPOSELY LEFT IT VAGUE SINCE HE COULDN'T PINPOINT THE ACTUAL POINT OF HER DEPARTURE FROM THE SALON. READ THAT SENTENCE AGAIN IF YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND MY POINT.

In his book he said that he wondered if she took the dinghy but said to himself "no way BUT he told the police that she must have gone to the bar. That's a reasonable assumption to you, that a woman who could not swim and was petrified of dark water would go back to shore in a dinghy by herself without telling anyone where she was going? Yeah, OK. that's reasonable. PUT YOURSELF ON BOARD THAT NIGHT (WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT) - THE DINGHY AND A PASSENGER ARE MISSING FROM THE BOAT. IT IS COMPLETELY REASONABLE TO THINK THE PERSON TOOK IT. I AGREE IT IS UNLIKELY IN NATALIE'S CASE (EVEN WAGNER THOUGHT SO) BUT YOU'RE BEING DISINGENUOUS IF YOU WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THE SAME ASSUMPTION.

I don't read The Star. Rasure made the statement. That's what he was told by Wagner. Rasure had no idea that there was a serious argument on that boat because Wagner and Davern lied to him. Wagner told the police that the trip over to the island was very rough and that during the course of the trip several wine bottles had been knocked over due to rough seas.

We're talking about different statements. You're talking about the statement that ziffren made that was televised. He was in such bad shape that he fell all over himself. He loved Natalie dearly. He believed that lies that RJ told him. The statement I'll talking about was the first statement RJ gave a few weeks after Natalie died. It was in the NY Daily News. THEY ARE BOTH STILL STATEMENTS RELEASED BY HIS LAWYER. MUCH, MUCH DIFFERENT THAN DIRECT QUOTES.
(I TYPED THAT SLOWLY TOO, SINCE YOU DON'T SEEM TO GET THAT POINT EITHER.)

Why would the man who wrote the article lie? He spoke in detail with Rasure and he was told that Noguchi lied about something very important. It did not come from a third hand, it came from Rasure.

You have no idea what happened that night. Wagner lied and continues to lie. Believe what you please but I'm convinced that he is culpable in her death. FINE. STAY CONVINCED. I, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW AND HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO POST IT HERE FOR OTHERS TO READ. REASON USUALLY WINS OUT WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE.

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 6:23 PM 

I know that the previous post was not meant for me but what difference does it make to you if people believe that Wagner killed Natalie. You have the right to your views but you defend him as if his guilt or innocence affects you personally. You feel that he is innocent, most people here feel that he is guilty. Your views are no more "reasonable" than ours. As a matter of fact, I have discussed this with some of my co-workers and most of them feel that he is hiding something. Others did not know who he was until Natalie's name was mentioned but they are the younger crowd. They are more familiar with Natalie because some of her films are true classics. The young men in my office find her "hot". LOL

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 7:30 PM 

Well, since some uninformed people in your office, who don't know the facts of the case, think he's hiding something, it must be true. You convinced me. LOL

Here's a tip: logic is your friend.

 
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nina
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 8:29 PM 

I have not been here for 24 hours, dear. I am responding to you. If you feel that I am trying to convince people then that must be what you are doing because you are here typing away. I stated my feelings and you berated me for them because they differ from your feelings. You seem to want to shout from the rooftop that Robert Wagner is innocent and anyone who disagrees is wrong. You're obsessed with him.
You feel that you are informed, why, because RJ said. I'm aware of RJ's theory about how Natalie got in the water but the professional theory by Noguchi was that she fell into the water trying to climb in the dinghy. That was the first theory but that can't be true because RJ didn't say it. LOL If RJ said it you'd believe it. If RJ said that he saw Natalie jump in the water you'd believe that. I can't believe the hold this cut rate Cary Grant has over you and how rude you are simply because someone does not agree with you, calling people "moron" because they feel that Wagner is hiding something. It's rather pathetic. Calm down dear. Good night and get yourself a life that goes beyond stalking the Natalie Wood Death Forum in an attempt to defend a man you don't even know. Do you know how pathetic you sound defending him against people who are simply voicing their opinions on a site that is meant for just that. You can't be naive enough to believe that most people on this site think that he's innocent in her death so you must be here simply to defend him from detractors. With that, maybe you are the one who should find a hobby.


 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 24 2009, 9:04 PM 

I never said you were here for 24 hours. I said I posted the same thing multiple times in the past 24 hours. (Reading comprehension is also your friend.)

I'm not here to defend anyone. I'm trying to counter the belief that Natalie Wood was killed - by anyone, not just Wagner. So feel free to take your own advice: get yourself a life other than trying to convict a man (or men) you don't even know.

Here are my points, summarized for your convenience:

1) My point about Wagner's statements wasn't made in order to support my belief that it was an accident. My point was to counter the belief that he changed his story. He did not. Direct quotes from him have been consistent. (There's that reading comprehension thing again...).

2) I'm not trying to change your mind; I'm offering a countering point of view. And yes, you have a right to your opinion and while I don't agree with it, I respect it. But it's funny how somehow my opinion holds less value because it differs from yours.

You wrote that I was "calling people 'moron' because they feel that Wagner is hiding something." That is not true. My use of terms like "moron" was to point out your (and others) failure to comprehend the above two points. It has nothing to do with the fact that you hold the opinion that Wagner killed her. Get it now? I tried to type as slowly as I could. wink.gif

 
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Duty calls
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 12:43 AM 

Reasonable Voice/Anonymous: stop busting a gasket. You are dead wrong, and you are defending a dark person. There's a lot of talk about "facts" here...or the lack of them. Don't tempt them...they just might come. You might draw out the people you really don't want to hear from.
Nina, you care enough to try to shed light upon this tragic story. You are perceptive and brave to stick to your common sense. More people should be like you. Then, just maybe, people wouldn't get away with mur...
There's a lot of talk here, too, that "no one will ever know the truth"... Nina, you already know it.
There are reasons as to why Rasure let this case slip between the cracks. And, NO, he WASN'T on the take. It's a more simplistic, humanistic reason.
If you'll notice, in RJ's book, he doesn't say much about the crew aboard Splendour that night. He was smart not to. He knew where to draw the line.
I am sure the Voice of Reason/Anonymous will label this message "moronic" but I promise you, it's from a knowledgeable corner...Anonymous, there are no "conspiracy nuts" on Natalie's death. The people who see through RJ are just smart enough to see through all of his lies. If that frightens you so, why don't you just do some real research?
Many people here are smart enough to add up two plus two. You think that waiting 4 hours to call for help is reasonable? The first call wasn't made until 2 hours after she was gone. It was a feeble alert that "someone is missing" -- mind you, not that NATALIE was missing, just that "someone is missing". RJ was so shocked that Don Whiting answered, and Don Whiting told me that! RJ knew that the restaurant was closed, but still asked if Nat was there. RJ REFUSED to call the Coast Guard. Finally, the harbormaster insisted upon it. RJ worried about one thing and one thing only while Nat was missing: his image. He was worried about his image. You want to spar with someone? Spar with me. TKO, and that's a FACT, every round. I guarantee it.


 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 6:36 PM 

Ooooohhh, you have me shaking so badly, Duty Calls, I better call for a back-up car! LOL

I am defending no one. I'm simply pointing out the fact (no pun intended) that you and others have no FACTS or EVIDENCE to back up your theories. So wish it all you will, no charges will be brought.

End of story.

Now, if you can really add two plus two, that logic should be easy to follow. If not, then the term "moron" certainly applies.

Uh-oh, what's that? Why I think it's the bell. KO!

 
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DC
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 6:54 PM 

I happen to have ALL of the facts. You have none. If you think I'll list them here for someone immature enough to call other smart people with valid opinions "morons" -- you are sadly mistaken. Everything you say is the MIS-information that has been fed to public, mostly via a lying RJ. It's no where near how it all really went down. It you want to discuss details, I'd be happy to. Who or what do you want to talk about? My position and inforamation, i.e. FACTS, will put your blindness to shame. Just because police closed this case, does not mean there wasn't foul play.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 6:57 PM 

Okay, you go try to get a conviction, Perry Mason, with your "facts". Let me know how that works out for you. Meanwhile, I'll just sit back and enjoy the view. LOL


 
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DC
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 7:07 PM 

Who's looking for a conviction? The man is 78 years old. I want him publicly held accountable, and I guarantee, that will happen. Sit and watch THAT wonderful view. It will be interesting to say the least. It will also be damning, and it will also bring justice to the legendary Natalie Wood. That's all I'm looking for. Oh, guess what? That's what I'll HAVE.

 
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DC
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 7:00 PM 

Besides, you don't even KNOW what to ask. You don't even know why the coroner lied. (Yes, he lied...he admitted it to me!) Yes, Rasure knows about what he lied about (Yes, Rasure admitted it to me)...Yes, you will believe none of this because you are a Wagner fanbot.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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March 25 2009, 7:16 PM 

Right, I'm a Wagner fanbot. Whatever.

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand.

Publicly held accountable? I don't even know what that means, but I'll take a stab anyway (it's a slow night).

It has been almost 28 years since Natalie Wood died. If the "public" believed that Wagner (or any of the men on board, for that matter) had something to do with her death, you would have seen them all shunned (Exhibit A: OJ Simpson. Exhibit B: Robert Blake. When was the last time either of them were in a movie? Honored by Hollywood with something like a star on the walk of fame? Interviewed on a network show?). Sorry, if they haven't been shunned in 28 years, it ain't gonna happen. But you go right on wishing for it. Maybe if you click your heels, it'll come true!

Look, if you "feel" that a crime was committed, charges should be filed and a conviction secured. But here's the catch - and it's a biggie - in order to do that, you need evidence. You have none. You have suppositions and theories. Guess what, Perry Mason, that ain't enough in a court of law.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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May 27 2009, 5:01 PM 

Oh, there is much much more than supposition. Brace yourself.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Problems with her death

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May 27 2009, 8:45 PM 

Yeah, right.

Dream on......

 
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Joanne
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a big old girl

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May 18 2009, 4:27 PM 

I have nothing against anyone straight or gay. I'm straight but I believe in equal rights for everyone so when I say this I'm not being homophobic but Robert Wagner is a big old girl!
I'm sure he was part of Henry Wilson's Gay casting Couch in the 50s. He protests too much now and tries to act all macho.
A big old girl!

 
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RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 6:54 PM 

I read on a website somewhere that Paul Newman was bi-sexual and had an affair with RJ. They even stated that RJ was Paul Newman's bitch. I don't know if that is true and sometimes I find it hard to believe, but I watched Paul Newman and James Dean online and they were talking about kissing after the shoot!? I don't know if it's true. I also read that Robert Redford wouldn't make another movie with Paul Newman because after the 2nd one he came on to him. This shocked me!!! I don't care who in Hollywood is gay but it is amazing how many men(if its true) are gay or bi-sexual. Has anyone else heard the rumors about Paul Newman? Let me know.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:14 PM 

^^

Some people will believe any rumor out there no matter how outrageous.

You know what I read on-line about you, Marsha? Well, without going into too much detail it involved a goat, a lawn chair, and some whipped cream....

See how easy that was??

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:16 PM 

Yeah, I read that about Marsha too. I hear someone even has pictures!

Anyone else hear it??

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:16 PM 

Pictures?? Well, if you say someone has pictures, by golly, it MUST be true!! Who'da thought....

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:17 PM 

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha.

Well, you know what they say about people who post on message boards...

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:18 PM 

Have I made my point?

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 9:19 PM 

Eh, probably not (considering the gullibility level of this crowd).

 
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 18 2009, 10:43 PM 

Yes it was me and I was with you. How's that? 2 can play at that game. I am repeating what I read/heard, but my brother stated that he and my Mom always wondered why Paul Newman never had a lot of women as they were throwing themselves at him. As I said I don't know but anymore I don't know what is and what isn't real in Hollyweird(as my Mother used to call it). Lol.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: RJ and Paul Newman

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May 19 2009, 3:15 PM 

Did you ever think that Newman never had many women because he married his first wife at 23 (they were married from 1949 - 1958) and to Joanne Woodward from 1958 on?

It's really not hard to figure out. But perhaps that simple, reasonable explanation is not scandalous enough for you or your mother...


 
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newman wouldn't want wagner

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June 18 2009, 6:12 PM 

If Paul Newman was bisexual he wouldn't want Wagner. He could have had all the young handsome guys not some sleave ball like Wagner. I picture Wagner getting poked by Mike Myers or the dwarf who played mini me or some other ugly azz actor.

 
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Anonymous
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Robert Wagner

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May 19 2009, 8:32 AM 

Wagner is a fruit loop.
Case closed.

 
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Heidi
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I love RJ WAGNER!

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May 24 2009, 12:19 PM 

Bob Wagner is a bigger woman than the 3 he married.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: I love RJ WAGNER!

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May 24 2009, 5:07 PM 

Oh my, how profound! Your parents must be so proud of your literary skills.

 
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Anonymous
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thank you

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May 26 2009, 1:34 PM 

THANK YOU but my parents are no prouder than yours are knowing that you clean toilets with your tongue.!

 
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Anonymous
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Re: thank you

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May 26 2009, 3:46 PM 

Oh my, is there no end to your wit??

 
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Anonymous
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a big girl

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June 18 2009, 6:07 PM 

Wagner is a big old girly woman that is why all the dykes on the RJlist love him.

 
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A New Book

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June 19 2009, 5:13 AM 

I know a lot of you will not like this but there is a new book coming out that states that Paul Newman was bi-sexual. He was outed by Marlon Brando(who was also bi-sexual)and Paul Newman had lots of affairs with men and women. It was a shock for me too, but RJ was suppose to be one of his lovers, go figure, as well as Natalie also. Who knows?

 
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Anonymous
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Re: A New Book

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June 19 2009, 6:04 AM 

or cares.

 
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Anonymous
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you do

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June 19 2009, 1:07 PM 

You do or you would not bothering posting.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: you do

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June 19 2009, 3:16 PM 

Do you know how old this new book about Newman story is? It's been discussed all over the net.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: a big girl

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July 14 2009, 12:18 PM 

Dykes? LOL I thought they were just a bunch of horney old hags on that site and the dykes are on Stefanie Powers site. They love that old horse faced bull dagger.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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July 1 2009, 7:48 PM 

Wagner's sexual preferences are nobody's business but his own. If he doesn't want to be true to himself, that's his business, too. It appears he's all over the board from books, but it has nothing to do with his dark side. It has nothing to do with needing to silence his wife. Being gay would be a good attribute. What he is deep down is one of the worst kinds of people on the face of the earth.

 
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Anonymous
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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July 14 2009, 10:12 AM 

I heard he got caught by Natalie doing the horizontal 69 with Robert Conrad and that is why she divorced him the fist time so anything is possible with that old nelly queen.

 
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Eduardo Aron Cleaver
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Re: Wagner's Sexual Preferences

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July 14 2009, 6:20 PM 

I think that story was fabricated. I know nothing about Wagner or Conrad's sexual preferences but I'd heard that never happened. Of course "out in LA anything is possible."
Possibly we should ask the WAGNERS legal *counsil (sic) for advise on this matter before our "Gag Order" takes effect and we are all led away in shackles.


*Couns(c)il; yes I am aware I spelled it incorrectly. Misspelled words, horrid punctuation and slipshod sentence structure seems to be the only way of communicating with the Wagners in terms they, he, she or it fully understand.

 
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