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Chronometre Souverain vs. Lange 1

November 16 2006 at 5:22 AM
Samuel Lock  (Login whatimeisit)
PP Discussion Group

I'm considering a three hand manual winding watch. Sadly, the Roger Smith Series 2 is out of my budget so I've narrowed my choices down to these two watches. I know it's like comparing apples to oranges but I like to hear what you have to say regarding these two watches and which you would prefer. Also, I'm open to whatever suggestions you may have. Thanks for your timepiece and input!

 
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Charles Sutanto
(no login)

Tough Choice

November 17 2006, 12:15 AM 

Sam,

tough choice. I will suggest what others have suggested me. Choose which one speaks the loudest to you. try both if you can and see how they look like on your wrist.

Both watches are quality products.

Another one that you might want to consider is the upcoming Richard Lange which i think provides more classical look and feel - it is really a 3 hands watch.

Good luck in choosing and post pics once you decide

cheers

 
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Samuel Lock
(no login)

I've also consider the Richard Lange but...

November 17 2006, 4:57 AM 

it just doesn't speak to me. So far, I've only seen the Lange 1 in person but have yet to handle the Chronometre Souverain. The Lange 1 is a hefty, superbly finished watch!

 
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Brad
(Login bs22fly)

Which color combination?

November 17 2006, 1:44 AM 

The Lange 1 will feel like hit has more substance. It's a heavier piece with crisp finishing. The dial design with big date is always impressive to look at. The CS on the other hand is equally impressive but has a completely different feel. In addition to superior craftmenship the watch is filled with artistic creativity typical of all Journe pieces. The location of the power supply, the smaller 7 & 8 hour markers near the subdial, the ribbed crown and mezmerizing rose gold movement. You are not the first person to debate between Lange and Journe, or a Lange 1 and CS.

Are you considering the PT or RG CS? Which Lange 1 combination?

 
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Samuel Lock
(no login)

My choices are...

November 17 2006, 5:07 AM 

Lange 1 in white gold with guilloche MOP dial since it has a striking resemblance to the Lange 1A. As for the Chronometre Souverain, I like it in platinum. My dealer quoted me the price for the platinum CS which is a mere $1000 more than the white gold Lange 1. Therefore, I feel the CS is a better value.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)

Re: My choices are...

November 17 2006, 8:49 AM 

<<Lange 1 in white gold with guilloche MOP dial since it has a striking resemblance to the Lange 1A. As for the Chronometre Souverain, I like it in platinum. My dealer quoted me the price for the platinum CS which is a mere $1000 more than the white gold Lange 1. Therefore, I feel the CS is a better value.>>

Some food for thought:

Depends on whether you like the chunky feel of German watches or the elegant, light feel that is Journe's trademark.

I can't decide, which is why I have both of them (Lange 1 in the classic (and, I'd argue, "purist") yellow gold/silver, the CS in the red gold/silver). See, I'm weak.

Subjectively, I can't pick a favorite. Objectively, I will tell you that when I'm rushing out the door each morning I tend to choose my Journes (the other is an Octa Lune in red gold) more often than I choose my Lange 1. Just a fact.

(The other one that I tend to grab a lot these mornings, since you're in the market and its in the same general price range, is the Lang & Hayne King Johann in yellow gold and a white enamel face - just lovely and a crown/winder that even edges out the feel of the Lange 1, which is superb)


 
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Roger
(Login rglickman)
AP Discussion Group

Too weak to decide between these two...

November 17 2006, 9:38 AM 

I feel drawn to both watches, and I agree with the others' comments completely. So I own a "Stealth" Lange 1, which has solid, smooth and modern presence, and a CS in platinum, which feels like much more of a classic. I will say that while I appreciate both watches for all of their attributes, it is the dial that stands out on the Lange and the movement that stands out on the CS. Both are extremely well made, versatile and comfortable to wear.




 
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Samuel Lock
(no login)

Roger, you are...

November 17 2006, 10:02 PM 

one lucky man! Unfortunately, my budget can only afford me one of the two =( Wear these watches in good health!!!

 
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PS
(no login)

I'm equally weak

November 29 2006, 10:58 AM 

so I have both as well. The "classic" yellow gold/silver Lange 1 and the red gold/silver CS.

They're oil and water but, last time I checked, most of us need both oil and water.



Interestingly, I was quite sure I'd get the platinum CS, but when I saw the red gold one, I was done for.

Date functions are useful, but in this day and age of the ubiquitous cell phone and blackberry, do we really need to make that a go/no-go for our time pieces?

My slant in watch choices is face design and the overall look and feel. Movements are important but not the first thing. To me, each of these watches expresses something essential about timepiece design. The Lange 1 is cooly modern, intellectual, Bauhaus, Mies van de Rohe. The CS is, on the other hand, extravagantly post-modern, playful, neoclassic, Frank Gehry (OK, not quite Frank Gehry, that would be Vianney, but maybe Michael Graves?). Both offer the highest degree of mechanical craftsmanship and exquisite, jewel-like construction.

So start saving. You know you can't eat just one.

 
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bernardcheong
(Login bernardcheong)
AP Discussion Group

If you must have SHEER quality, then the Lange is above it.

November 17 2006, 4:35 PM 

I am more than familiar with both watches, and the Lange has an edge over the FP in both visually obvious quality in finish, and tactile quality...feel the wind of the crown, and also as you pull and push the crown in and out.

Also, if you run your fingers around each watch, you can feel the difference in Lange's better finish.

Well, I support FP for reasons of their superior aesthetics, and also the vision of the products. Also FP has a certain purity of line.

For Lange, it is about clinical quality.

I would not however, go for a Lange with an overlapping dial layout or any luminous material.


 
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Marcel Philippe
(no login)

Do you sincerely believe this (L1)level of quality runs deeper than the top plate ?

November 17 2006, 6:40 PM 

Best regards

 
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bernardcheong
(Login bernardcheong)
AP Discussion Group

The Lange 1 was a concept born before the communication era of the internet

November 21 2006, 4:23 PM 

But endured Walt Odet's dissection of it.

Yes, a critical point that the back surfaces and unseen parts, were cosidered at one time arguably to be less finished.

However, I have to add that it is simply "less" finished, but still very well finished.

(Some parts, but then it may well apply to even Patek and Journe, under magification that Odets employed...were not pretty.)

I own and operate more advanced and high magnification scopes, which we use for eye surgery, and pathology, but have held back on posting the pictures of all concerned, including Journe.

The industry will not benefit from dissection at the microscopic level yet. However, if I can feel it, or sense it..I wonder.

I am simply not sure what to do next.


 
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Samuel Lock
(no login)

Actually...

November 17 2006, 9:59 PM 

I've been quietly awaiting your perceptive response. You never fail to deliver when most needed! Thank you for your feedback...

 
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bernardcheong
(Login bernardcheong)
AP Discussion Group

Thanks Samuel, your question brought back memories of a time I treasured.

November 21 2006, 4:25 PM 

The birth of the Lange 1.

A time when I was already a collector a marinechronometers of Lange, and their pocket watches.

I have long forgotten these things which hang around my study.


 
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felipe
(Login fjordao)
PP Discussion Group

LOL! Pull up your pants folks, because it's too late to save the shoes

November 18 2006, 6:37 AM 


>> Also, if you run your fingers around each watch, you can feel the difference in Lange's better finish.


According to this scientific study, blind people have better tactile spacial resolution than non-blind people, and even that is only about 0.8 mm with their dominant fingers. To claim that you can differentiate between the level of finish on two polished metal cases is spurious at best.

http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/12/2230

You must have bionic fingers, or perhaps just blindly biased



 
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michael.ting
(Login mkt32)
Admin

Perhaps if we are going to discuss this on a scientific level...

November 20 2006, 2:06 PM 

then we'll need to distinguish between different "types of touching".

Active touch is when a subject's finger moves over sa tationary surface which I believe is the motion that is being described.

The limit of discrimination with touch is about 0.8mm.

The limit of discrimination with active touch is about 20-40 microns (0.02 to 0.04 millimeters) (75% correct performance level)

The superior discrimination of active touch is thought to be due to more vigorous activation of mechanoreceptor populations and/or an ability to use neural code based on both temporal and spatial aspects of the mechanoreceptor response made possible by the relative tangential movements of the finger.

I don't know if 20-40 micron touch discrimination is enough to distinguish between different levels of finish but this limit is perhaps a better representation of the movement described.


Best, Mike


 
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Anthony Tsai
(Login AnthonyTsai)
AP Discussion Group

You guys are crazy :P (nt)

November 20 2006, 4:00 PM 

.

.

 
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felipe
(Login fjordao)
PP Discussion Group

:D (nt)

November 20 2006, 4:37 PM 

.

 
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felipe
(Login fjordao)
PP Discussion Group

An excellent point, but...

November 20 2006, 4:35 PM 


Hi Mike, I thought I might get such a response. I have to admit that what you have highlighted is true in certain contexts, but you have to remember that as alluded to in ISO 13091 (click here), when identifying or manipulating curved objects such as a watch case, or the example more commonly used - a coin - both the shape of the edge and its position on the on the skin is signaled to the central nervous system. That adds an order of magnitude to the processing requirements, so to speak, of the old grey matter. Unfortunately, or at least to my knowledge, there are no studies on the precision with which humans can discriminate such curved edges.

If that were not enough, you should also remember that edge sensitivity of cutaneous mechanoreceptors changes with the curvature of an edge (Wheat & Goodwin, 2001). Why is this important? Well, unless the curvature both on the y- and z-planes are identical between the Journe and Lange cases (which I doubt, considering the Journe has a "Directoire" edge vs. Lange's flat & brushed edge) then enhanced mechanoreceptor responses cannot, in themselves, provide information about the shape of an edge. Spherical curvature is reflected by two orthogonal changes in curvature, instead of a single change in curvature, e.g. in edges. You can see now how curved edges present a challenge because, as you may have guessed, the number of afferents activated during the detection process will be relatively small compared to the spatial precision required.

Why am I bringing this up you ask? Well, the original claim was that you "could feel the difference in Lange's better finish". How are we to know that the "better" feeling didn't come from a more pleasing curvature rather than "finish" (whatever that means, I'm assuming smoothness of the metal). You would need either 1) identical cases, or 2) a flat surface produced by both manufacturers to be tested. However, in the case of the latter, this would only prove the superiority in producing a flat finish, and may or may not (more likely not) translate over to case manufacturing. If "finish" is being used in a broader sense, then I can argue that it's subjective enough to not have the ability of being used in absolute statements. A very simple counter argument could be that "I ran my fingers around each watch and I felt the difference in Journe's better finish". An even simpler argument is "No, you can't". In the end, it seems, even with bionic fingers it comes down to personal preference.


 
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ei8htohms
(Login ei8htohms)
AP Discussion Group

well said

November 20 2006, 5:45 PM 

I believe Bernard was mistaking stylistic judgements for discernments of "quality" with regards to feeling the different cases. He prefers one over the other, that's all that can fairly be concluded.

_john

 
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