I'm sorry I couldn't find the post of another lady who raised a good point about a body becomng tolerant to continuous taking of herbs. I Googled and this is what I found. I must apologise now if you think this does not translate much into NBE but I'm quite sleepy now.. just thought I'd post this.

I just browsed through the article and haven't really read the whole thing. And to whoever mentioned the herbal tolerance thing, I'm sorry I forgot your name.. lol.. I do need to get some sleep now. I'm babbling.



http://www.mindbodyspiritjournal.com/holistic-health/naturopathy/dont-use-herbs-daily-as-though-they-were-maintenance-meds#more-76


Don’t use herbs daily as though they are ‘maintenance meds’
Herbal supplement manufacturers don’t stress this. (A bottom-line issue for them?) Yet it was foundational in the herbal texts and trainings I went through in the ’70s, ’80s and even early ’90s. I don’t hear it any more.

And I wonder why? It didn’t suddenly quit being true.

I was taught by traditional Chinese, English and American herbalists, that you should always take herbal remedies in cycles, or “rounds.” Such as, take the herb (or herbal combination) for two weeks, then abstain for a week, then resume for two weeks, and then abstain for a week. Or, take for two months and then take four months off. (Sort of a wash, rinse, repeat routine.)

This is because the body adjusts to the herbs, adapts to the herbs, and then develops tolerance or resistance, and the herbs lose their beneficial effect. Robert Gray called this “homeostatic resistance.” And he said, “Most herbs lose all effectiveness when taken over a period of eight to nine months.”

Once “homeostatic resistance” sets in, you have to abstain from using the herb for five to seven years before it again will have its full beneficial effect for you, Gray taught.

For this reason, most herbal remedies traditionally were prescribed in rounds — take it for three weeks. Or take it for two months. Then take a certain amount of time off. Then repeat, if needed. And, traditionally, an experienced healer — a naturopath or herbalist or curandero of some sort, would recommend which herbs to take and would monitor your progress and adjust your herbal intake as needed, swapping new herbs in and old herbs out for optimal, continued healing and restoration.

The general purpose of taking the herb was to restore the body to a state of natural balance (or “homeostasis” or “equilibrium” — to use natural healing terminology). And once that balance is restored, the herb is no longer needed. The body is functioning well again on its own — as it was built to do.

That said, during an acute illness or crisis, an experienced herbalist or naturopath is likely to throw some powerful herbal combinations at the condition, just as though they were medicines designed to beat it down. But generally, in natural health theory, herbs are used to gently help the body regain its strength in its weakened areas. And that is done in limited rounds.

Taking herbs for a limited period of time — or in a few carefully monitored cycles is not what you read about in the health-food store magazines (not in the freebies, which are thinly disguised catalogs and sales literature promoting the products of the advertisers; and it’s not what you read in the mainstream natural health magazines). It’s not what you read on the labels on most bottles of herbal capsules and tinctures.

In fact, in health and supermarket checkout magazine articles, herbal remedies often are discussed as though they are medicines you would take daily for life — just like “maintenance drugs” that doctors prescribe.

Now that herbal manufacturers are attempting to identify and extract and boost only the “active” substance in an herb, the products they sell are becoming much more pharmaceutical-medicine-like. Maybe, in that form, they can be taken for longer- term use. (Although I’ve heard the opposite argued by some respected herbalists.) And maybe the effect they deliver is quite different from the effect the raw or traditionally prepared herb delivered due to a synergy of its various natural components.

In my experience, not all herbs, nor all vitamins, nor all drugs for that matter, are subject to the resistance rule. But many certainly are.

And, there are circumstances under which you would want to use an herb daily on an on-going basis. For instance, if you found St. John’s Wort effective in treating life-threatening depression it probably would not be wise to take it one month on, two months off. St. John’s Wort seems to be one of those herbs, incidentally, that the body does not develop resistance to.

However, as an aside, the level of stabilized, standardized-potency St. John’s Wort herb shown to be highly effective in some studies is much higher than what is commonly recommended on bottle labels and in magazine articles. I’ve seen studies where doses in the range of 800 mg of standardized herb, taken three times daily (every eight hours, approximately, for a total of 2.400 mg daily), have delivered an impressive effect — with few of the side effects commonly found with maintstream anti-depressant drugs. Knowing that, I don’t question the sometimes poor outcomes of published studies that have used only 300 mg to 900 mg daily of St. John’s Wort.

My continuing belief? For the most part, herbs and herbal formulas are best used in short-term, carefully monitored sequences; short-term usually meaning periods ranging from three weeks to three months. And, they are best used for the ultimate purpose of helping the body return to a state of natural, healthy flow, or equilibrium, so that “medicines” are not needed. In most cases, they aren’t intended for daily, life-long support. View them as gentle helpers; not as magic bullets.

Robert Gray taught that no herb should be taken more than one-third of the time. I think that’s a good rule of thumb — though believe there are exceptions.

Even as I write this, I realize that ginger, for me, is an exception. I’ve been taking three to nine grams of ginger daily since early on in my initial bout with Reactive Arthritis six-some years ago. And, while I have laid off ginger for a couple months, a couple times, the painful inflammation I experienced after just a couple weeks off encouraged me to return quickly to my therapeutic dose. And it worked as expected when I restarted.

So, in my own experience, with a few of the many herbs I have used, I have not seemed to develop Gray’s “homeostatic resistance.”

I wish I knew a simple rule to share with you for which herbs do lose their effectiveness in long-term use and which do not.

I think I recall being taught that many of the “pepper”-like herbs, to which ginger is closely related, are “synergistic” herbs — meaning they are well-used in combinations with other herbs and assist in enhancing effect, enhancing absorption, enhancing adaptive ability of the herbal combination to help where and how most needed in the body. If that memory is correct, then that partially explains why I haven’t developed resistance to ginger. The body does not develop tolerance nearly so quickly with the synergistic herbs.

I welcome input, additional information and contrary opinions from any herbalist reading this. In fact, would love to hear any reader’s experiences with this. Use the “Comments” box below, please.

– ken winston caine,
the Spirit of Wellness research doc™
and Alchemystic Holistic™

it was your post that I read :).... off to bed I am.

Greast information and yes that does relate to NBE! We need to pay more attention to how long we are taking these herbs and how strong they are. When you stop getting results, that is the best time to take a break. Thanks!

I have mentioned this issue on a few occasions. I'm really scared that I developed a resistence. :( Usually I started getting signs at the beginning of a routine, or when I changed sth, but then they went away. And I have been on herbs for several months at times.

what if herbs were taken for 2 weeks and then different herbs were taken for 2 weeks and then back the the first herbs for 2 weeks and so on. Would that mean tolerance was avoided?

Thank you for that article, that is very useful. I have taken a weeks break because I am ill and am feeling like this may actually be helping. I have only been on my new routine for about two months but when I went off the herbs there, I actually started to get tingles etc. AFTER I stopped taking them, a sign for me that my body was getting used to them and the lower dosages left in my body started to show some effect.
After this I thought about just taking a break from the herbs during my period, and this article kind of backs this up. I will try how that works, after all I have been doing NBE for so long a little longer trying doesn't matter, and I don't want to harm my body, this sounds like a more healthy way of doing it than staying on the herbs for months on end.

Moon, maybe do a liver cleanse and take a month or even two off the herbs, I have done that several times, and for one you feel more like starting up again after you have had a break for a longer time and generally, the herbs do seem to work a bit better.

Hi Lisa, I have just started my new routine after a two months brake, I have very little pains, I never had much pains while on any routine. I guess I'll still try, I'm making lots of small brakes in my new routine, every weekend I'm off herbs and one week in the month during period I will too. I just hope i haven't screwed up my chances for NBE by doing it without the proper information for months straigh before.

Moon, don't worry too much, if you always had little pains but still grew and it is the same just now then you should be fine. I never had major pains either, after I went on the pill and combined it with nettle and just a little Fenugreek I had pains for the whole month sometimes which was crazy and I had never experienced before. Now it is back to the way it was before, just some pains, sometimes intense for a few days of the cycle, but not over a longer period of time.

I have taken regular breaks every four to five months but nothing like the article says either, I grew and the information does not have to be 100% correct, I kind of doubt that it would take years to get your receptors back to normal. Cells recover at a moderate rate, and we have new cells in our body every 7 years, all over our body. Generally, even with cancerous substances that get into our cells, if the cell doesn't get any more "hits" it can recover again and does so at about a year or even before.
Generally, tolerance is achieved by developing more receptors for the specific substance. After a few weeks to months they get pruned back again, and the tolerance disappears again. This happens in smokers for example, so don't stress about it too much, I think it would be similar for the herbs.
Stick to your new breaks and I am sure you will be fine.

Actually I've never grown a milimeter. Thanks for encouragment thoguh, I hope you are right.

Hi Moon, I had a look at your program since you have been on a routine for relatively long.
Here are a few suggestions, I hope you don't mind.
Since you are a AA cup starting, I think maybe you are taking too many phytoestrogens. Hops is really strong, and right from the start you have been taking nearly the maximum dose of Fenugreek as well.
If I was you I would do the one week break you are planning and then just take the most basic things. I would suggest just taking Fenugreek three or four capsules a day, and either no hops at all or a maximum of 310 mg a day, but if you do that with a lower dose of Fenugreek, maybe just up to 1220mg a day. Do you have the feeling the RC is helping you? The rest I would keep on taking as you are.
Also maybe try cutting out the coffee? I am not sure, but that may just make the difference.
Try that for three cycles or so and see how you go. I think you may just be overloading on the phytoestrogens, the smaller your boobs the less I believe you need to grow, and both hops and Fenugreek are quite strong, hops especially. The increase in gastric acid and the kidney problems are also an indication that you may be overdoing it for your body in general.
Maybe give it a try and see how it goes, I found for myself that lower dosages work much better and I stall less quickly as well.
Good luck,
Lisa

Thanks for the input Lisa. Now I realize that I haven't updated my program for ages, I guess I wasn't too enthusiastic to come arround doing it as there wasn't anything very positive to update. That was my second routine FG, SP and hops, the first was a weak commercial product. In the third trial I added red clover. The only time I got some actual growing pains was when I added ginko biloba, was very hopeful for a while, but then they slowly subsided and I was back with nothing. Shortly after that I also got some bad stress in my life, not sure how much that contributed but probably it did, so I went on a brake. I started my new routine about 10 days ago, which consists of many herbs, but all low or moderate doses(FG, fennel, RC, hops, WY, SP, nettle, ginseng...). I haven't considered until now that getting used to herbs might have been the problem, in fact I remeber that in the past I grew used to some meds very fast too. Oh well, but I guess as long as there are still some opptions which I haven't tried yet I should keep trying.

I agree with Lisa, I think you may have stalled before you got started Moon. Always start on minimum dosages and ramp up only after growth seems to be slowing or has stopped. This all takes time for the body to adjust to herbs and their actions( 2 or 3 months ). A liver cleanse is certainly in need now. A month break would not be unreasonable. Have you been having kidney problems? what kind of problems?

Hey Snowflake, I've just come off a 2 months brake and liver cleanse. I was on routines before, at maximum five months, at the beginning low doses. When it didn't work, I pumped up the doses, probably exaggerated too. I was doing NBE without the right info at the beginning and apparently my body is also prone to get used to herbs. I was planning on trying an adjusted routine with many brakes now and if it didn't work, making a veeeery long brake, like a year or sth.

Oh, the kidney problems I had on my previous routine, occasional sharp pain in the kindney area, but teas helped a lot. I think I also had a liver problem, but not entirely sure what the hell it was. That was with low to moderate doses of herbs tho.

Hmmmm...wonder if this is part of why St. herb (sorry know it's PM talk on main forum, but it's also an herb) talks about reaching a plateau after 6 mos......? Say it's about limits, but perhaps this could be applicable as well......?

I think this info should be posted into general reference page, it's very important, I hope the topic starter dosn't mind me doing it.

hi everyone

ok so when you take this break does vitex fall in to the same rule.... i am planning a break from the herbs for a week or so then do a cleanse but i thought you could take vitex up to 6 months safely???

thanks,,see you all soon..xx

This is your baby! I wouldn't mind at all :)

Rose- Vitex can be safely taken for longer then 6 months. I am just not sure how much longer, but was under the impression years........but that could also be the lower dosage or the dosaging recommended on the bottle. I am not sure at this point how many people of breaked while taking Vitex........so maybe if you don't get responses here, think about starting its own post so others can see it. I have only breaked from Vitex because of being sick, otherwise I don't think I personally would have.