I feel really upset, I don't know who else to tell. I never really had issues with my breast till recently. My b/f has continue to assure me that he loves me just the way Iam. I'm sure this is true, but the other day I caught him masturbating to girls on the net who have way bigger boobs then I do.

I know he is a guy and it should not be too surprising, but he assured me before numerous times that he is not capable of doing the deed while looking at c cup and up women(Iam aaacup). I feel kinda betrayed, again though I know he is a guy.

The really unsettling part is that once I caught him, he said he was thinking of an ass when he was looking at her breast! am I the only one who thinks this is a really lame excuse???

I have known of his insecurities regarding down their for the longest time, and I have assured him that I don't get turned on or even look at other mens members and he should not worry.

He was always so paranoid and still kinda is about the way I percieved his member compared to others. He made my life hell for awhile, making me feel guilty for no valid reason.

I need advice. how should I deal with this dumb situation?

I'll try to help how I can but I'm probably going to get linched for what I say.....but oh well, not everyone is going to agree with me so here's my opinion.

First off, if it upsets you, it is not a "dumb" situation. There is nothing dumb about your bf lying to you or making you feel bad about something.

If it bothers you that much, you need to talk to him about it. I don't care what anyone says, just cuz you are a guy doesn't mean you need porn. There are good men out there that don't, and they GENERALLY treat you better. My hubby is the BEST i've seen him in years since he's given it up. I haven't felt this loved in my marriage before and I've been married for 8 years! Porn is selfish and makes people selfish (let the lynching begin!) If he can't give it up, then he's got a problem.

If he won't give it up, then you have a decision to make. Can you really put up with it? Does it hurt that bad? You shouldn't have to put up with anything that makes you feel bad about yourself or unloved in anyway. This most likely wasn't the first time, and won't be the last.


Okay, now for the good news. He probably really does love your breasts. As I said, I've had similar problems with my hubby. Your b/f is not looking because you are inadequate. He probably finds you absolutely beautiful and perfect like he says. Porn is different, it creates something like a drug effect and can become very addictive...I hope this isn't the problem. But just remember, it's not you. It is hard and it hurts. The best thing to do is to talk to him, not yell, not judge...just talk to him about how you feel and ask (if you want him to stop) to stop. If he really loves you, he will for you.


So I hope some of this helps, but I know I'm going to make a lot of people mad with what I said.

Good luck

For some women, they think if a girlfriend denies her boyfriend porn, then the girlfriend is just being insecure. For me, I had a problem with it and felt a little insecure especially since I don't watch it and frankly find it a little repulsive, why it's abused by men (or my boyfriend) for that matter. Eventually I came forward and told him how uncomfortable it made me feel. At first he started hiding it from me instead but if I asked straight forward he would tell me the truth, but it began to drive me crazy that he was hiding it more than the little sting when I found it in history. So I asked him to stop. I have now been working at home since September of last year and since I'm always here I can say for certain he hasn't watched in almost a year now. Of course when he asks me to go somewhere myself, I feel like maybe he will watch while I'm gone, so I refuse or whine. But we do everything together, so I've been here every moment since September. This is probably a little crazy, but as I said, for most women it only becomes a problem when men lie about it. This is how I see it, if you didn't think you were doing anything wrong, you wouldn't be hiding it in the first place.

If your boyfriend is hiding it, he thinks he doing something wrong. So why is he doing it if he knows it's wrong? In my situation, I think because I was my boyfriend's first serious girlfriend he didn't realize it would hurt me or didn't realize there are some things he would need to change, as well as the fact that he'd been doing it since he was like 12, so it's hard to break the habit and try something new.

I know how it feels to be put on a guilt trip. At first my boyfriend thought I was trying to get him back by asking him not to since he made me feel guilty for x-boyfriends and such. I think if it bothers you then tell him. A lot of guys will stop if you just ask.

I know a lot won't agree with me either, especially if they enjoy it, but to each his own. Some accept porn, but some don't. And the way I feel about it is no different than I feel about unnecessarily gorey movies. Society will continue to push the envelope as long as people watch it.

And this is a huge reason why I hope I don't have a boy when I have children. I don't want to feel hatred or disgust if I find porn in my little baby's hands.

In my honest opinion I think porn has gotten too mainstream and has gotten too far into our lives from what it was a few years ago when I was a kid. I think the more people accept it and watch it the worse it will become until there is no censorship and everyone is dull and numb to the thing. And once they become numb they will seek out more extreme and disturbing things (this is where children porn and such comes in). So I don't agree with it, and yes, some people do get addicted.

Maybe you feel more confident once you have your new breasts and I have thought that way sometimes, but maybe women have been forced to accept this all their life and it's not fair either. I feel that way a lot too. So I have gone with my gut feeling in my own life and decided it's not something I want in my relationship, others will be different though.

You are not wrong for how you feel, lots of women feel this way. We just may be the more sensitive types (or perhaps in my case the sometimes psychotically jealous type). Whatever the case, my boyfriend deals as I deal, so find a guy that can deal with you (and of course not all things about you will be bad). :) I'm rambling, sorry. :)

Sorry to be blunt but I think this is all just very wrong. You are both too needy and possessive. You both lied to eachother about your likes as to not hurt eachother, and you both resent eachother your likes, preferences and actions related to them. Do you really think that's ok? Yes his excuse was lame, but he shouldn't have to make up any excuses. You both burden eachother with your insecuritues and feed eachother's weakness.

Personally I think we have no reason to get offended by our partner's likes, and no right to make demands on them. The fact is that people are sexual beings, we like men/women, and that won't change when we're in realitionship. Expecting it to is utetrly unrealistic and making such demands on your partner very disrespectuful in my opinion. Thing is, this is the reality and the only way we can be happy is to accept and manage the reality. If we can't then we have a paroblem - in our mind, not in our partner.

And I so have to disagree, no porn is not selfish and evil, tho in my opinion it can often be tasteless aned boringly repetitive, but there is nothing wrong with some good sensual porn or even just plain old porn if that's what one wants. Strong couples enjoy it together. Do you realize just how ****ed up it is to demand of your parhter to change and supress the basic characteristics of his personality and sth that is essentially human such as sexuality? It's like wanting an emotionally devoid partner so that he may only feel anything for us? That's wanting a worthless partner.

I agree that we are sexual beings but I believe we are more than that too, and that we can control those desires and channel them to one person in our life. We are more than just animals looking to fulfill a sexual desire. Just because we have a 'desire' toward something doesn't mean that we should do it and doesn't make it right.

I don't expect my partner to change. They want that life style they can let the door his them in the a** on the way out. I agree with Haley, that is not something I want to be part of my life and we can expect to find a partner that can love us fully and not desire anything more that what we are. You can say porn is not selfish but I can find plenty of people that have stopped looking at porn that can tell you different.


Everybody has their opinion about it but for me, I want my partner's whole heart, not just part of it.

I think it's all based on where you come from. If you're religious and are strongly against porn, then that's one thing. I guess you and your partner would have to just compromise and come to a mutual agreement. But if you're only upset because they have big breasted and small breasted, I think you are being insecure and it has nothing to do with porn but rather what the porn stars look like. Most porn stars have big breasts. I doubt when your boyfriend looks for porn online, he looks for small breasted women to be considerate of your feelings. I also doubt that he specifically seeks big breasted girls; it's probably just the action he likes. Even if it was big breasts that he liked, doesn't mean he doesn't like small either. Men can like both.

FInally, if he didn't like you for the way you were, he would have left you already.
Ladies, the biggest turn off ever to men is when you're insecure and when it's being taken out on them. Everyone is insecure, but try to keep it to yourself. I know I wouldn't want to be with a man who wants me to change my ways because he's insecure. For instance, I was in a shop with a friend and overheard a guy tell his girlfriend to not buy the pair of high heels she was holding, because then she'd attract too much attention and guys would stare. Unbelievable! It's normal to be insecure, but in all honesty, we all need to get over ourselves and on with our lives because it's petty and a waste of time.

My husband once told me that guys jerk off to women opposite of who they are with. it's not a complaint about you - he loves you and you are the one he's with. it's just a fantasy - something different.

If you had C cup breasts, he might be looking at girls that are AAA cup.

Ok before you read it, I'm on the pro-porn side.

Firstly, when (most) men watch porn they are not using their logical or even emotional brain. It's primal, it's instinctual, it cannot be explained through reasoning, but it's part of all of us.
But if he watches it, then it means he has those desires, and asking him to repress is is NOT the answer.

My guy watches porn. He actually stopped for a long time because he found it boring, but after we got together I encouraged him to start watching it again--with me. It's a good way to explore your partner's conscious and subconscious sexual desires & preferences.

In the beginning he was a little awkward because the society makes men feel that it's wrong to do it. But then after he got more comfortable we started having so much fun. I would ask him what he liked and what he didn't like, and I learned a lot of little interesting things that I never would've imagined. If he saw something & said, "that's hot," I would make a mental note of what he thinks is hot.

And then I started to incorporate them into what I do in the bedroom and it is GREAT. These are things that no women in his life had ever done to him. We've been together for almost 3 years and the passion between us still makes us crazy.

Are those porn stars we watch "hotter" than me? Totally, well, usually. They have bigger boobs, they have more beautiful, long legs, they have gorgeous booties, but it DOES NOT mean my or your man prefer that. Men are not kids. They know that what they are watching is porn, it's not real life.
You would be surprised by how men are very clear about the distinction between porn stars (who my bf said he would never touch) and the woman they love.

Nothing is sexier than confidence. You and your guy need to talk. You need to communicate openly and honestly. You both need to get over your insecurities. Insecurities are not sexy. Communicate, communicate, communicate.
The funny thing is he would understand your insecurities since he has insecurities too. You should know that although a bigger cock may intrigue you, you still love your man the most!!!
And TRUST him when he gives you reassurance. BELIEVE him when he tells you that he thinks you are beautiful.

Whether you think porn is okay or not is not the issue here.

If you do not like porn and feel it is something you don't want in your life, then pick a guy who does not like porn.

Asking someone to change who they are to suit you is not the way to go about having a healthy relationship. With porn you are dealing with an issue that is likely an addiction. There are actual changes in the wiring of the brain in those who use porn for sexual gratification.

Think of it this way. If you don't want to be with a guy who drinks then pick a non-drinker. Asking a guy to stop using porn is like asking a drinker to stop drinking. It is not going to happen unless the guy wants it to stop happening and even then it is going to be very hard to stop.

All you are likely to do when you ask your guy to stop using porn is to turn him into a person who sneaks porn. He will feel guilty about what he does but he won't stop what he is doing. You are telling him that you really don't like who he is - you are the one creating a problem.

If your guy is serious about stopping porn then he needs to enter a 12 step program similar to Alcoholics Anonymous. In this way he can take the steps he would need to change - without it he will likely just do things behind your back. He has to want to change though - that is about the only way this kind of major behavioral modification works (for those who are addicted).

Most of all though - just eliminate the guys who do not fit into your life style. That is what dating is all about. Don't spend your whole life trying to change someone. That way creates an emotional roller-coaster ride that is a living hell. Select the person who fits in with your personality and live well.

By the way - I don't do porn, nor does my husband. I have been with guys who used porn and although I never made it an issue, it did bug me. I like the porn free life much, much better.

For those of you who use porn - okay - I am not saying anything bad about you. Whatever you want for you is okay with me - because it does not bother me that you and I are different. After all - we don't have to live together.

The better you chose your mate the happier and healthier your life will be.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon

Disclamer: Sorry if I sounded sound kinda agressive, I mean nothing personal, there's just no way to discuss opinions without some sort of conflict I guess.

''Everybody has their opinion about it but for me, I want my partner's whole heart, not just part of it. ''

I think that ideally we wouldn't feel that we compete for our partner's heart with all other things, enjoyments and people, we'd feel our partner has a big enoguh heart.

I too would dislike if a guy spent TOO much time watching porn tho. This relates to aspects of personality, values and priorities. But a little occasional porn, no. Waxingmoon makes an excelent point which seems obvious but more often it's not - we have to be selective and chose a person who matches our values and priorities.

And again, Sandra makes excelent points.

''My guy watches porn. He actually stopped for a long time because he found it boring, but after we got together I encouraged him to start watching it again--with me. It's a good way to explore your partner's conscious and subconscious sexual desires & preferences. ''

Exactly the same for us hehe. He never watched much porn cause he found it boring but now I sometimes get us to watch some more sensual porn together, tho we prefer erotica cause there's a real shortage of good porn tho (''good'' porn lol, even sounds conflicting, shouldn't!).

This is a little off topic, but I really wish there was some good porn out there. For me, what's always bothered me about porn was that it always seemed boring to me. Where I come from, great sex isn't great sex unless there is chemistry and connection, and 9.9/10 times there is no chemistry or connection between the two people in front of the camera because they've probably just met and are just doing it for a living.

I prefer a real movie that has a love story and a great sex scene somewhere in the movie. That beats real porn any day ha ha.

Im sorry girls i have to be blunt too,
there is a saying 99% of men masturbate the other 1% are lying

To OP:
my question to you:is the problem purley what you found him doing it to rather than the act its self?
and as for his excuses, he was embarrassed wasnt he?wasnt u?he just probably babbled anything and he probably thought after wtf did i say that for went bright red bashed himself on the head and went DOH!
I can see why this sitution would bother you but as previously advised, if this is somthing that really really bothers you you have to tell him how you feel, but asking him to stop is setting yourself up for further upset, because then he is going to lie, and then when you find out you will feel more betrayed than before


prettylittleB's :
My hubby is the BEST i've seen him in years since he's given it up-what because now you believe that he doesn't do it you are not getting on at him making his life hell?

If he can't give it up, then he's got a problem-i really have to say it seems you definatly have the problem, unless you guys are at it all the time then a mans sex drive doesn't just disappear because you have asked for it to

My opinion on porn:I wouldnt like it if my man sat watching porn hidden away,and touch wood upto now iv never found him watching porn and doing it (it doent mean i dont think he does), but more because of the embarrassment of catching him, and i do believe that if you have a good sex life then the amount of masturbation they will do will be less anyway, and even though i dont like porn personally,( my man dont like shopping but he has to come some times:)), so i will suggest some times watching it together, some times we do some times he will say no lets get it on:)and the times we do then generally "we " look for some smaller breasted women so my insecurities don't increase too much

good luck OP your situation isnt dumb,but hasty decisions could end up being dumb

gd

For your information, my hubby has been going through the 12-step recovery program for porn addiction. It's not just some 'guy' thing. He wanted to stop and yes porn made me feel bad. I wasn't making his life hell about it. He was the one feeling bad about it. I didn't even know that he was looking. He hid it from me for years....looking at work and such. He'd been doing it since he was 12 and became addicted. Like Waxingmoon mentioned, it changes the wiring in the brain and I know that first hand. He came forward and told me about it and he chose to get the help...counselling and recovery program. He has changed a lot over the last couple years. He has become less selfish and caring. He felt it was wrong as do I and yes we are religious. But from talking to him, he tells me how it effected him and changed him and how he feels now compared to it.


People can think what they want about porn being okay but I know from experience that it is not and agree with Waxingmoon that the relationship without it is "much, much better". For those of you who do look at it, have you dated a guy that doesn't? Can you really say the the relationship with porn is just as good or better than one without? Also, what's the longest relationship you've ever been in? When you have 10 years with THE SAME GUY that looks at porn, talk to me about it being okay.

i caught my boyfriend doing the same thing 3 years ago....i was so upset and was really hurt for a long time after...still am. but he ended up buying me a promise ring saying to never do that to me again and i thought he was being true to that up to a few months ago. turns out after ONLY 3 months of making that promise he went right back to it, even on sex search sites, women nude sites, and on tons of dating sites talking to other girls. i found this out in march of this year! been going on for years after he promised me...and yea you can tell i have serious trust issues bc of him now. but i respect everyones opinion but i believe if a man is taken then he has NO right what so ever to look at other naked women besides his girl. bc i believe thats a minor form of cheating and idc if men are visual....get pictures of YOUR girlfriend to do that stuff to. they have no excuse in my opinion.

I agree Ashley, although most won't about it being a form of cheating but in a way it is. It's a fantasy like everyone on here has agreed with, but it's still a fantasy about being with someone else. If they are going to do it, at least, like you said, do it to a picture of the girlfriend. Desire the person you are with, not something else or different or fake.

I guess its just like anything else, it can become a destructive habit. I feel its fine if its mutual between a man and woman, but closet porn , then yes , something is wrong. And when that happens, like with Ashley above, there is obviously issues, and I do feel it is a form of cheating,,, even without the live chat with other girls and dating sites. I feel a guy that is watching porn and keeping it from his girl, is in his own way cheating and will eventually actually cheat, that was my experience anyway. I also believe to each their own, but like in Ashleys case,,, that is a major RED FLAG situation.

I honestly think a guy will cheat if he wants to cheat whether you take away his porn or not. My dad had magazines and openly watched it when I was a kid, and my mom was okay with it (which I found a bit disturbing), but after 15 years of marriage she left after finding out he had been cheating on her all that time. So it didn't stop at porn in that situation, and I know for a fact my dad has his porn all he wants. He openly talked about it and even made comments about other women in front of me and my mom when we were out somewhere. He still to this day does this when he sees someone on television and even my 5 year old brother has picked up words like "sexy". So, I disagree with all those that think men are more likely to cheat if you take away porn. If the desire is there, any man can do it whether he watches porn or not. If you think your man will be more faithful just because you don't mind if he looks at other girls, then I think you are wrong. If a man wants to cheat he will.

My dad also went on those online dating sites and talked to other women in chat room. Maybe that is part but not entirely what makes me uncomfortable with it, but everyone is different. There are lots of girls who like porn too. Just find someone who agrees with you. Life is too short to settle for less than what you believe is ideal for you in a relationship or other aspects of life.

I realize some women enjoy it with their spouses and that's cool too. I'm glad they can enjoy something like that together, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. But if there is anyone who seriously has a problem with it, I think that's okay too. If you don't like it, then you shouldn't have to put up with it.

And it gets a little old when you have people pushing you around telling you that you have no right to be against this and it's perfectly normal. You judge what is normal for you and I will judge what is normal for me. But don't think your lifestyle is right and mine is wrong.

Women are just as much visual creatures as men are. We all choose what we do with our minds and how we think, no one is controlling our thoughts but ourselves. So I think porn is a choice just like anything else in life. It's not necessary to survival, so those of us who don't want to live with it, don't have to. :)

wow. Where do I begin?
well I understand all of your views. I used to leave comments in the past pertaining to actually growing my boobs. I hardly ever got a response.
I notice a pattern in this forum. When some girl or guy brings up any emotional or personal issues or display any kind of desperation, most of the senior members are on top of it.

strange when I ask a genuinely concerned NBE question, no one knows.
Curious to know what moon thinks or any proporn pushers thoughts when it concerns people who are in the same situation as ashley? I'm assuming from ashley past comments that she has had a difficult life. Would some proporn pusher enthusiasts be willing to label people like ashley as unjustifiably insecure? Or some g/f who shares something similar to prettylittlebs past as unjustifiably needy and unattractive for acting or thinking a particular way?

Since you proporn pushers aknowledge the reality of porn, I think it would be fair to aknowledge all of the violence that comes out of the porn industry as well. I know most of you say that you watch tasteful porn, but I think that is a matter of subjective truth. I'm curious to know where you gals can find such tasteful porn? the porn that you may watch, do you know for certain if the woman or women were not abused pshycologically and or physically throughout the making of the film?

I know most of you will agree with me when I say that no women should be subjected to that. Which brings another question, what kind of porn does you guy watch when you are not around? He doesn't watch it by himself? even if he did you would be cool with that? does your guy always watch tasteful porn as well? could you say? would you not care? what if it effects his subconscious overtime, and he may start to develop a naughty habit? I'm sure you ladies have good forsight to prevent such unpleasant side effects.

You see their are those other women out there whose lives and views of themselves has become distorted and or distraught due to this insurmountable porn access, particulary in the american culture. Is it just the reality that these mental disortions developed through porn viewing, addicted or occasional, will inevitably effect one male in our life? Whether it be a b/f, brother, son, father, etc? I know most of you will agree this is unfortunate, and that we can't control other peoples actions, or we shouldn't try. That all depends on each person individual situation. is it more important to be seen as attractive to our man and confident with the idea of porn, or more important to NOT consider someones potential personal bad experience with porn that you will never know?

doubleace, have you heard of lars von trier? look up "all about anna". I have personally never seen it, but it sounds like what you are looking for.
according to some sex poll, women favor this movie the most.

also their is a documentary called the "The price of pleasure"
http://www.scps.nyu.edu/about-scps/newsroom/news/2009/02/scps-united-nations-screening-the-price-of-pleasure.html

unfortunately it is unviewable on the net, as far as I'm aware, but potentially a great documentary to note for future reference.

this link is to the fun and exciting tyra banks show. I don't necessarily share the same views as the person who did the editing in this particular video, still worth the watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxUq_zzvAaA&feature=related

moon you said porn is not evil and selfish, that may apply to give or take 5 to 10 percent of the population. What about the other folks? It has destroyed lives and torn families apart. Not your problem? Well do you care to be a mild solution, simply by aknowledging that porn brings more bad then good to any society. And that their is more bad to porn then what you describe as simply "tastless and boringly repetitive"?

Now I don't want to be fatal and say down with all porn. period. Nor do I want to convince any one who watches porn to feel like it is always wrong or shameful. However, I simply want you to ask yourself what do I watch for pleasure? and if it is abusive to the lady in the film in any way? If the lady seems to be fine with it on or off camera, is she emotionally stable? Could the viewer be the judge of that? I'm sure you gals are mindful for the most part, but I think it is safe to assume that we have all been in a situation where we may want to push ourselves to do something we would not normally do when it comes to sex. Whether it be for our own thrill or for our partner. It is in in our nature, as some of you gals say.

keep the female "liberation" movement in check is all.

u could say im insecure. but only bc my boyfriend made me feel as if i wasnt good enough and cant satisfy a man w/ my body already. dating sites, flirting w/ beautiful girls, actually meeting up with them, cheating, porn when he had pictures of me. i mean who wouldnt become insecure bc of that. yea i have no self esteem, no confidence, and constantly feel guilty if someone is nice to me bc i feel like i dont deserve it. i even feel guilty and undeserving when one of you girls answer a post of mine...like i didnt deserve your help and attention. im working really hard on changing all this. im trying to think in positive ways and feel happy w/ myself. im looking into those sites that you girls have been posting about being positive and visualizing. but like i said i have strong opinions on this topic and i respect everyones opinion. just wanted to put my 2 cents in. im sorry if i seem pathetic to you all but im at a bad point in my life and this site and you girls are really helping me out alot. thanks :)

Ashley,
I'm so sorry that you feel that way. You shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with you. You are perfect and there are REAL men out there that will love you for who you are and what you look like, not wanting something else.

As for how you feel about yourself now, I know it can be very devasting. If you can, you should look into counseling. It can really help. I know this is an expensive option. Something to look into though that is free are the addiction recovery programs. Most of the programs set up for porn addiction also has a support group for the partners/family. They can be really helpful. You can google search sexual addiction or porn addiction support groups and find some...of I can post some links to some I know of.

Get feeling better Ashley, you are more than deserving of feeling good about yourself and to have people care about you.

''I notice a pattern in this forum. When some girl or guy brings up any emotional or personal issues or display any kind of desperation, most of the senior members are on top of it.''

Because it's an interesting topic, and this is afterall a forum, and discussion is one of the original purposes of forums. I don't see anything strange about that...

''Curious to know what moon thinks or any proporn pushers thoughts when it concerns people who are in the same situation as ashley?''

I'm not really a ''propornpusher'', my opinions relating to this topic are actually directed more towards mindsets and attitudes, originating from subjects such as freedom and morality, not exactly or directly to porn.

About Ashley's situation, I think what I already said - we should chose the partner who shares our values, priorities, likes, matches our personality, someone who we respect and can accept. Lying and sneaking is wrong, so if I was her I'd dump him. And in the case of addiction it's bad because it's an addiction, like any addiction is bad.

''The porn that you may watch, do you know for certain if the woman or women were not abused pshycologically and or physically throughout the making of the film? I know most of you will agree with me when I say that no women should be subjected to that. Which brings another question, what kind of porn does you guy watch when you are not around? He doesn't watch it by himself? Even if he did you would be cool with that?''

Yes to everything.

''What if it effects his subconscious overtime, and he may start to develop a naughty habit?''
''Is it just the reality that these mental disortions developed through porn viewing, addicted or occasional, will inevitably effect one male in our life?''

What sort of naughty habbit? Do you mean if using a potntially addictive substance or medium will eventually cause addiction? Iinclination to developing an addiction is genetically predisposed so no. In general think we should try to maintain self-control with anything. People who are prone to addiction should obviously better avoid triggers. But as there is a good way of ascertaining the risk no I don't think 100% prevention is necessary.

''You see their are those other women out there whose lives and views of themselves has become distorted and or distraught due to this insurmountable porn access, particulary in the american culture.''

And due to media, and due to fashion models, and due to other women on the street, and due to the wiring in their brain. So there are many levels on which the issue could be attempted to be solved, and I think the most effective one is in our own choices, and in the brain wiring. Chose a partner who shares our values etc etc, get psychological help.

''moon you said porn is not evil and selfish, that may apply to give or take 5 to 10 percent of the population. What about the other folks? It has destroyed lives and torn families apart. Not your problem? Well do you care to be a mild solution, simply by aknowledging that porn brings more bad then good to any society. And that their is more bad to porn then what you describe as simply "tastless and boringly repetitive"?

Actually mainly why I said this is because I don't like the notion of personifying things and concepts. People can be selfish and evil, not porn. Porn should be regulated. Yes there deffinitely is more bad to it – because it's not regulated enoguh. As for that staement, I don't think it's veryfiable so I can't acknowledge it. But I think more bad comes from inability to make good choices, harmful and pathological mindstates and destructive beghavioral patterns than from porn. Neediness, possessveness, denial. Like I said before, I'm directing all this more towards the mentality than towards porn. We could bad porn from our lives but those psychological issues and harmful patterns won't change. We can either attempt to isolate outselves from everything that potentiates a problem, or we can attempt to solve the problem.

Ashley - Dump him, and find psychological counseling. Or at least the second, for now. Trying to help yourself, doing this for yourself itself can make you feel better. Counseling puts a lot of things into perspective, stuff we don't realize about ourselves which are harming us but could be fixed if we did. From what you said before, you could also be clinically depressed. Reluctance to get help is actually a part of the disorder, so you really have to muster up the will and the efford to do it. It's really worth it.

pretylb's-
good responce:)
i was not aware of your religious beliefs,had your original post had some of the details your second 1 had, my reply to you would have been different re-your husband being the 1 to have made the decisions regrading porn.so i apologize for my judgmental reply,:

mel:'I notice a pattern in this forum. When some girl or guy brings up any emotional or personal issues or display any kind of desperation, most of the senior members are on top of it
If you post somthing expect opinions that you both dislike and dont want to hear, if this upsets you dont post,nobody has been nasty or abusive, if any thing very informative info coming from all sides (you should have been here yrs ago ouch it was very bitchy,i darnt even mention cocoa butter lololol)


i have a preconceived opion that men want to watch it and will watch it regardless to a womans opinion and that i would prefer to be in the know and share/explore this than feel betrayed in finding out.
p.s like Haley my parents whole divorce was based on my dad being a wanker and i mean literally, so i know exactly how she feels -to other forumers may be just may be this may explain why i say 99% of men masturbate the other 1 % are liers (explaining this to my mother was a very different story...........)


only after reading other peoples experiences and opinions has it made me think,
WHY do we as women accept that it is normal for a guy to disregard a womans feelings on something, which takes me back to your opinion of porn being selfish, yeh purhps your right, but i do not think the women who are in most pron films are abused psychologically and or physically they get paid well and they choose to do it

my opinion does however remain the same some porn is ok and fun to watch but as long as its not hurting any one else:) that better???

''you should have been here yrs ago ouch it was very bitchy,i darnt even mention cocoa butter lololol''

And everoyne blamed it on hormones, I for one take full credit for my bitchiness! LOL!

ilmao hhhhhhhhhhhhahahahahaahahahahahah it was hilarious what bitches we were, n no i dont use it do u moon???? that is stupid i just wrote the word sn igger n it blocked it ok chuckle chuckle chuckle

Thank you gd for understanding. You said "99% of men masturbate the other 1 % are liers" A sex addiction counselor told us that 99% of men have looked at porn at the other 1% lie about it :-) Doesn't mean they look at it all the time, just they've seen it at least once in their life.


Moon you said " Iinclination to developing an addiction is genetically predisposed." Are you referring to porn addiction or any addiction in general? If you are referring to any addiction then we as human beings are genetically predisposed to some kind of addiction. How many are addicted to coffee (if you NEED it to get going you are addicted)? smoking? drinking? Even chocolate? We might have different things that we are genetically predisposed to become addicted to. If there is anything you CAN'T (not won't, they are different) give up, you are addicted to it. If you are always needing more of something, or stronger (including porn) you are setting yourself up for an addictive cycle. How many porn users here can honestly say that they don't watch anything more 'intense' than what they watched when they first started? It is a 'drug' in it's own way. You get used to it, need more, need something 'different' to satisfy you. And most will say that "I do that but it's not effecting me like that" but remember denial is part of addiction :-)


I know a lot of people do not believe that porn is selfish but in my case, I have had the oppurtunity of talking many women who's lives have been effected by it. I have seen marriages fall apart, cheating, and lying. I have also had the oppurtunity to hear the men's stories too, how they were effected by, how they have felt since they have stopped, how their marriages have changes and all their relationships in general. All of them will admitt to them becoming more and more selfish, the more they did it.

PrettyLittleBs - I was talking from the scientifical point of view. Some people have a genetic predisposition to develop the chemical changes in the brain distictive of addiction sooner and to a greater extent than others (lowered dopamine levels in the ''pleasure centre'' of the brain). Even risk taking explorative and experimental behavior has been shown to be genetically predisposed. This is most relevant to strong addictive substances. Things like coffee and chockolate have a small addictive potential and so even thoguh most people consume them, they are not addicted, or this ''addiction'' is very weak. But inclined people may develop stronger addictions even to those things.

Just needing it is not an accurate enoguh characterisation of addiction. Most of us women need nice clothes to feel pretty and good about ourselves, are we addicted? There have to be the distictive chemical changes in the brain. I'm also interesting example - I was ''addicted'' to coffee before I even tried it. I just have a poor concentration and attention and can't study without coffee.

So I think most porn users aren't addicted either, but like I said, predisposed people are likely to become. One may evaluate a risk for themselves quite easily - do they have any other addictions, were they experimental in their youth etc. Observing the effects of any mild addictive substance one ever tried or used like coffe, chockolate, smoking gives an idea about how fast you become addicted, how fast and to what extent you observe the typical addiction changes. I myself observe little to no change in my coffee consumption since I started drinking it, I had plenty of chockolate in my life and don't get any chockolate cravings, so I'm safe to assume I don't have very stong predisposition to addictions.

So moon, because you claim you don't have an addictive predisposition, does that mean you could walk away from coffee and never drink any again? not crave? not want it? your body would function fine without it? If you can't, your body has chemically changed to "need" it to operate, to get by. You also say that you watch porn with your guy. Could you give that up? or is it needed in your relationship? Would you 'crave' it if you stopped? If you would, you've created that chemical change you claim has to happen.

I agree that not everyone has a STRONG predisposition to addiction but I believe EVERYONE can become addicted. So although you say you don't believe most guys that look at porn are addicted, do you think they could walk away from it and never look at it again? or would their body crave it? It might be a small addiction but it is still an addiction. Porn changes the brains wiring from the beginning but it does take some longer than others to become 'addicted', meaning they change their bodies chemistry or brains wiring.


By the way, I don't 'need' nice clothes to feel pretty. I can wear my hole-filled jeans, a t-shirt and feel just as sexy and beautiful as I do when I get dressed up for a nice night out. Needing clothes to feel pretty, isn't that a self-esteem issue? Comparing that to an addiction is like saying we are all addicted to food because our bodies need it to work. People who crave more and more food to feel satisfied and better, get fat. People who always require nicer clothes to feel pretty, get poor. SO I guess yes, clothes can become an addiction because it helps feel an emotional void, in how you are saying it.

''does that mean you could walk away from coffee and never drink any again? not crave? not want it? your body would function fine without it? If you can't, your body has chemically changed to "need" it to operate, to get by.''

I could, but I would probably study less effectively. I don't crave or want coffee at all, it doesn't even taste good to me, but like I said, I do need it to study because I have an attention defficiency. Which I had before ever touching coffee.

''You also say that you watch porn with your guy. Could you give that up? or is it needed in your relationship? Would you 'crave' it if you stopped? If you would, you've created that chemical change you claim has to happen.''

Needed? No, it's just one among the many things we share. But why would I give that up, or coffee for that matter? I'm better off with both.

''I agree that not everyone has a STRONG predisposition to addiction but I believe EVERYONE can become addicted.''

I didn't say anything different. Everyone can become addicted to heroin. But not everoyne does get addicted to low addictive potential substances with the average ammount of exposure.

''do you think they could walk away from it and never look at it again?''

There are many factors that drive our behavior, aside from dopamine and the pleasure centre. If there's sufficient motivation a parson can do a lot of things. I believe lots of guys simply don't want to give up porn, be it or call it addiction, selfishness, hedonism or raging hormones... Err, I'm not really sure where you're getting at with this?

''It might be a small addiction but it is still an addiction. Porn changes the brains wiring from the beginning but it does take some longer than others to become 'addicted', meaning they change their bodies chemistry or brains wiring.''

Again, that's what I said. However degrees do matter. In some people the changes occur to a greater extent and in some to a lesser extent, hence they don't develop what would medically qualify as an addiction (must include, apart from physiological changes, impaired sociopsychological functioning).

''By the way, I don't 'need' nice clothes to feel pretty. I can wear my hole-filled jeans, a t-shirt and feel just as sexy and beautiful as I do when I get dressed up for a nice night out.''
Good for you. However I was talking about women in general and I think it's obvious what I said is true by looking at the streets.

''Needing clothes to feel pretty, isn't that a self-esteem issue?...''
Yes. I could even theorise that the feemale gender is predisposed to self-esteen issues through some sortof collection of traits, genetic or psychosociological, or both. Again, before I get irrelevant counter-arguments - in general; a single case proves nothing against a generalisation, like a generalisation proves nothing about a single case.

But I'm at a loss of your point... So are you saying that porn is necessarily addictive and that it's impossible for it to have positive uses? Well, not in my and Sandra's case. I'm not denying the negative things directly related to porn at all. Abuse - like I said, porn should be regulated. Addiction, like with any other thing, should be treated, and I think it's not a person's fault they got addicted because the genetic factor is huge as I explained. But demonising every potentially addictive substance from porn to coffee to chockolate is extreme. Of course, it's understandable that you and I will have the opposite practical point of view and stance on porn, given that we've had the opposite kind of experiences with porn.

My point tho is that porn (like many other things) serves as a kind of scape for the society and for people - it gets blamed for a lot of things that are wrong somewhere else but people refuse to address, or even for actions people do wrong themselves and refuse to take responsability for.

How is your life better off with porn? What has it given you that you could not get without it? Do you need it to feel satisfied sexually? Have you had a relationship without to compare it to actually say that it is better?

Sharing that particular experience with my partner, one other way of exploring our sexuality. What Sandra said, since I'm not really accustomed going into details about my intimacies. Need it, no, again, it's simply a positive thing for me.
And yes I have. I'm closer with my current bf and intimate in noumerous other ways with him than with anyone ever before.

I haven't bothered to filter through the other responces.... But if you're boyfriend is with you he likes your boobs.


I've seen my boyfriends history before.. Big juggs all day long. Big. Fake. Juggs.
BUT. my vibrator is definately bigger than his... you know. But thats not to say i'm not satisfied with what he's got.

Don't be offended. We're all human and variety is the spice of life.

I haven't bothered to filter through the other responces.... But if you're boyfriend is with you he likes your boobs.


I've seen my boyfriends history before.. Big juggs all day long. Big. Fake. Juggs.
BUT. my vibrator is definately bigger than his... you know. But thats not to say i'm not satisfied with what he's got.

Don't be offended. We're all human and variety is the spice of life.

My boyfriend used to watch porn before he met me but chucked it all out when we got together as he said he didnt need it any more. I would be pretty suprised if he has watched any since. To be honest i think he only watched it because he hadnt had a girlfriend for a long time, hes quite happy taking pictures of me now :)
I dont agree with porn the whole selling your body for money and having sex with anyone is just wrong to me. For me sex is a very special thing and means alot and i would only ever do it with someone i love, so its not something i could ever understand or like.
I dont have nothing against people who do watch it tho but i think its wrong of men to continue watching it if it makes their girlfriends unhappy as its not something they NEED to do as my boyfriend proved to me .

Moon, can you really say that the porn is what has made your currently relationship a good one and not the guy you are with? Are you saying that you could only achieve the level of intimatcy you have now with the porn but without you wouldn't be with your guy now? I'm just saying, if you took it out of your relationship, would it survive and be enjoyable or do you need the porn to make it that way? Would your other relationships that are over be better if you had added porn or was it the guy?

I've been with the same guy with and without porn. That same guy without it can open himself up and share himself with me, we can talk for hours, enjoy each others company, and have a level of honesty when we talk to each that we couldn't have before. It's not just about great sex (which has gotten better without...there is nothing like being with someone who is completely into YOU and not turned-on by something they watched).

I've seen porn, I know it can turn you on, make for some really hot sex. But, from experience, I love being turned on by my hubby more, by the idea of being with him and knowing that he has completely given himself to me and I to him. We've committed ourselves to each other and none other, not just with a marriage vow but with the way we act and show our love, by keeping all others out of the relationship, pictures/movies included.

Ok, ok, I was going to stay completely out of this and I am still not going to give my own full POV of porn, but there's one irk that I just have to comment on.

PrettyLittleBs,

You keep making these all or nothing statements (esp in regards to Moon). Think of it like a food dish. It's great without any seasonings, all the flavors blend beautifully and you don't feel that there's anything missing. Then someone adds a dash of salt and, lo and behold, it's now got even MORE flavor. (Note that the salt made the dish better, not that it made the dish.) Does that mean the dish wouldn't be enjoyable without the salt? Does that mean they ruined it or that you could never have it again without salt? No, it's just a nice addition that you can take or leave. Everything in moderation.

Now, in your case, you're like someone with high blood pressure and adding even a tiny bit of sodium is very, very bad for you. That's fine, you can keep on enjoying the dish without the salt, but that doesn't mean everyone has to, or should be asked to.

I certainly don't think that anyone's opinions are wrong or that they are not entitled to them, but you simply cannot make blanket statements for the entire population based on your own experiences and expect them to hit the mark. Hell, how often in the NBE journey do we say what works for one may not work for another? That is the way of ALL things.

Sorry but I don't see how you can compare. Porn is not a flavoring, it is a drug. It effects your brain the same way drugs do, giving you a 'high'. (Not my opinion, straight from the psychiartrist)

That's why you can't watch the same porn and be aroused the same. Nobody on here has said that they could. There is a dependency created...more is needed to give the desired effect. Salt can be the same way....you slowly build up how much you need, eventually not being able to enjoy a meal without it.

Seeing my lover walk through the door makes my heart race and gives me a "high". Is he a drug? Should I give him up because I want more of him? Should I leave him so as not to become "addicted"? Seeing your children walk for the first time, being given praise for a job well done, making love to your partner, all of them give you a "high".

By your extremist definition, *anything* that raises serotonin is considered a drug and therefore we should all live devoid of all happiness to ensure that we never have a chance to become slaves to such "addictions". Sounds silly when it's put that way, doesn't it?

What it comes down to is that you have a fearful hatred of porn and due to your negative experiences with it, you're imposing those feelings on something that has no power in and of itself. It's like the saying, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Well porn doesn't hurt people. People's choices are the deciding factor. People can choose to enjoy a few beers and be done rather than becoming an alcoholic just as people can choose to enjoy porn in moderation. Your husband may not have that willpower, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


ETA: For most well adjusted people, esp those who choose to enjoy porn with their partner, it very much is an added spice. Anyone in such a position will immediately understand the connection with my salt analogy.

''Moon, can you really say that the porn is what has made your currently relationship a good one and not the guy you are with?...''

Of course not, I never said or implied anything like that. I really don't think what I said could be interpreted that way... No, it's not porn what makes our relationship great, but having a partner with whom I can share and enjoy a huge ammount of things, including that. If both partners enjoy watching porn together, then it's a positive addition. One more positive thing among the many. Of course it can't be the basis of a good relationshop and of course a good relationship wouldn't break because of the preseance or lack of porn. It's an added pinch of spice, a flavoring on top like many people like to call it.

I thoguht I was descriptive enoguh but ok, I'll go into detail. The porn is not a major thing for us really, I may have created the wrong impression cause this is a topic about porn so that's mostly what we're talking about, but like I said before, we prefer erotic anime, images, stories or any form of erotic art. Some of the movies we watch couldn't exactly be called porn, they're movies on those kamasutra and tantra practices, but they show graphic sex (featuring only real couples) so in that sense they sortof qualify. I've seen maybe like 5 examples of actual porn that I would call tasteful, and they looked like they were made in the 70ies, so that figures why it's more tasteful if we assume that the society has been getting more and more emotonally shallow and sexually degenerated.

So of course our relationship wouldn't fall apart if we didn't use porn. But it would be a few nice and fun experiencess less. However if we didn't have any of the other erotica stuff, which together accounts for a bigger part of what we do, that would make a difference, in the level of intimacy, given we both love art including erotic art so it's a big part of who we are that we couldn't share.

''I've been with the same guy with and without porn. That same guy without it can open himself up and share himself with me, we can talk for hours, enjoy each others company, and have a level of honesty when we talk to each that we couldn't have before. It's not just about great sex (which has gotten better without...there is nothing like being with someone who is completely into YOU and not turned-on by something they watched).''

It's a totally different situation. Your guy was addicted and yeah addiction does make one selfish. Me and my guy, we're just kinky and like exploring hehe.

We don't feel that we're devoting any less to eachother when we watch porn or erotica together, the opposite, we feel we're devoting more. I don't feel that I compete for his love with anything else. I don't feel this excusiveness, that any other sort of positive emotion or reaction he has diminishes his commitment to me – the opposte, I value those positive emotions in him.

Apart from that, the reason why we are totally commited to eachother is that we are very very different from all other people, but we are so similar to eachother. We don't fit with most people, and in general we usually look for someone with matching values, personality etc for a partner, so what me and him look for in a partner is so rare that, at least at this point I can say, it'd be impossible for us to replace eachother.

He tells me that when I show him an erotic image or something sexual I like in a movie he gets arroused because *I* showed it to him, because *I* like it. That sth turns me on turns him on. And some of the erotic stuff we share are our own works as we're both amateur artists. The thing is, we view everything with artistic eyes, including sex and sexual acts, even in (tasteful) porn. So what we're doing when we watch that is not getting arroused to other people, we're sharing and exploring what we like in the sexual context, in the same way we on other occasions share what we like in classic literature. I guess this is hard to imagine and to explain tho, so I'll shut up here before I reveal too much of what a weirdo I am. :p

''Sorry but I don't see how you can compare. Porn is not a flavoring, it is a drug. It effects your brain the same way drugs do, giving you a 'high'. (Not my opinion, straight from the psychiartrist)''

**A psychiatrist who said to a group of people addicted to porn** – it's true for them, but not for the next random person and their genome, as explained before. For them, yes porn can be a flavoring and not a drug.

The psychiartrist wasn't speaking to a group of addicts, just me, answering my questions on why it can become addictive. You don't have to be an addict to get a high.
Heroine gives you high, does it not? Does everyone get addicted to it? NO. But because you are not addicted does that mean that you aren't getting a high? No, you get a high from it addicted or not. I know some people's brains MIGHT not become addicted to the high of porn but it doesn't change the fact that you get a high. It releases more than just serotonin in your brain. It releases a few chemicals in your brain that creates a high like heroine. Look up the stuides.
As for the addictive part, Do you think someone can use heroine regularly for 20 years and not get addicted to it?

As for the 'high' you get from seeing your lover or seeing your kids take their first step, sure you can get addicted when you need your lover to always be around or when you keep popping out kids because you get a 'high' from having babies and all that they do, then ignore your older children. (yes, I've seen it). However, I believe the 'high' you are referring to is the joy of seeing your lover, the absolute love you feel for your kids and the pleasure you find in seeing them grow up like MOST parents do. This 'high' can't be compared to that of a drug. never heard anyone say they did drugs because it reminded them of how good it felt to watch their child walk the first time.

Moon, the 'porn' you refer to is not the porn that other women are referring to, so no, I don't believe you will be effected the same way. As you said, the porn is from the 70's, not the same as what is put out there now.

BTW, I don't believe kamasutra is the same as Porn. So I apologize for my questions of fitting you in with the women that like the porn now. I enjoy being 'kinky and like exploring' too. For my hubby being the one that had the porn problem, I sure figured out a lot more. :-)

My thing with porn is that people believe it is not effectiing them. The build-up of the problem might be slow....might take 10 years...but when it's slow, do you really see what you are doing? how it if effecting you? How long did it take before alcoholism was actually considered a problem and not just some guys drinking a bit too much? How long was it before people actually realized that smoking was bad for us? or that second-hand smoke was? Or that nicotine was addictive? Porn in now becoming mainstream like so many of these others thing have. There hasn't been a lot of studies because so many people accept it. For some reason, 'everybody does it' makes things okay.

For those of you that say I'm wrong, at least take an honest test for me to see if it's effecting your life. Take 2 weeks, no porn in your sex life or at all really. Is it just as satisfying? It is a little boring? Are you making your 'food without salt' bland? If you did 4 weeks, how bad would it be? And be honest with your answers. You don't have to see it as a 'bad' thing in your life but at least admitt to it changing how you see things, that it effects you. That's all I'm saying. Porn does effect everyone, not just those addicted. Whether you see that effect as bad or good, whatever.


The one thing I really appreciate from the women here *even though I highly disagree with you on porn* is that you have not been on the side of making the women who feel bad because of porn feel like there is something wrong with them. I really appreciate that.

Ladies, thank you for the discussion. It was quite enjoyable to have.

I leave you with my final thoughts. Disregard them as you wish but I hope it at least makes some think.

I understand that many here see the benefits of porn. Okay, I'll give you that...there can be some benefits. My problem is that all you that are pro-porn do not acknowledge the negative side-effects. I don't know if this is because you are in your bubble and can't see beyond that or if you refuse to think about them, or have never even thought there could be a negative side-effect of porn.

Something to think about though....not everyone will get addicted to a substance of any kind that they try. Not everyone who smokes will be addicted....not everyone who drinks will become an alcoholic. However, there are negative side-effects to both on these practices. Does it mean that those who don't get addicted aren't subjected to those negative side-effects? No. Anyone who smokes is subjected to those side-effects...you cannot avoid them. The longer you do it, the more susceptible you become to them. Will everyone die of lung cancer? No, but it will still effect their health in some way. Someone who chooses to smoke for 30 years sees it as more of a benefit in their life then not having it. It doesn't change the fact that smoking has negative side-effects. Porn is the same. You can find benefits to it in your life. Does it mean it will not effect you in some negative way? No, because it will. However, will you see those? Most likely not because what matters to you is the benefit of the porn. It is a slow process for a reason. If everyone was effected negatively the first time they tried something, the chances of people continuing in that practice would be very low. So, fine, think that porn is okay but don't fail to acknowledge that their are negative side-effects, for everyone. Not everyone will be effected to the same degree by them but all will in some way.

Thank you for reading and discussing with me. If in 10 years, you are still practicing the pro-porn lifestyle and feel the same way about it, I would love to hear from you. Until you know the LONG-TERM side effects of it on your life, I don't feel like you can say it will not and does not effect you in a bad way. A few years of it will not do the same thing to you that 20 years will.

Thank you again ladies!

''The psychiartrist wasn't speaking to a group of addicts, just me, answering my questions on why it can become addictive.''

But he was still talking to you in the same context, the one relevant in your case, about how it affects an addict.

''But because you are not addicted does that mean that you aren't getting a high?''

''Getting high'' is a normal physiological process. Everoyne gets high many times a day. If you aren't getting high, you are clinically depressed.

''This 'high' can't be compared to that of a drug.''

How would you argument that? In the physiological sense a high is increased tonus of dopamine and serotonin. They both mediate normal physiological functions as well as addiction. They both appear in a wide range of concentrations in physiological functions as well as in addiction due to geneticly determined differences in people's brain on the microscopic and chemical level. So there's just no way you can say this is a drug and does exactly that, and that isn't cause it doesn't do that. On the chemical level no substance produces exactly the same effect in everyone.

''Moon, the 'porn' you refer to is not the porn that other women are referring to, so no, I don't believe you will be effected the same way. As you said, the porn is from the 70's, not the same as what is put out there now.''

Well I've seen a fair ammount of that sort of porn too, it just rarely doesn't make me yawn. And you are making an even more radical division now - that the porn I saw has less addiction potential because it's not as tasteless or because it's older. It doesn't because the addictive component is graphic sex. That's why I also included the educational movies, they're not porn but due to just as harcore graphic sex they have the same addiction potential.

''My thing with porn is that people believe it is not effectiing them. The build-up of the problem might be slow....might take 10 years...but when it's slow, do you really see what you are doing? how it if effecting you?''

I agree this is true in a significent share of cases. But you just can't lump everything in the same box and say that's the case 100% of time. Things are not black and white cause they are too complex.

''For those of you that say I'm wrong, at least take an honest test for me to see if it's effecting your life. Take 2 weeks, no porn in your sex life or at all really. Is it just as satisfying?''

For us, yes because we don't do porn every two weeks. We did more often for a while, then less often for a while. We do it whenever I find sth interesting.

''Porn does effect everyone, not just those addicted.''

Affect how? Every single thing in our environment ''affects'' us. You mean in the sense we're deffinitely getting addicted and that it's just a matter of time? Then do you think that every potentially addictive substance causes addiction with sufficient ammount of exposure or just porn? Why just porn and not for example sex? Sex is known to be addictive, and it's also a ''drug'' that the great majority of people get lots of exposure to in their life time. If it was necessarily addictive then every person would sooner or later become addicted. But we don't see that happen.

The deffinition of addiction includes apart of the physiological changes impaired socio-psychological functioning. That is the more importnat part of the deffinition even, since it's impossible to pinpoint the exactlimit value in chemical changes above which sth is a high and below which a pleasure.

Ah ok, fair enoguh, thanks for the discussion to you too.

PrettyLittleBs:

Bold statement: I think your husband probably had a really serious addiction (to go through a 12-step program) and that inevitably affects your relationship to the idea of porn. I can understand your point of view, because to you, porn as an addiction was very real and was part of your life (since it was part of the life of a man you deeply love).

Therefore I will not try to persuade you that porn isn't an addiction. It is unfair to invalidate a part of what you have experienced.

But also be open to the idea that there are men and women out there who can watch porn without getting "addicted" to it. Be open to the idea that there are men and women who watch porn once in a while but if it happens, they can go without porn until they die and totally be ok with it. Be open to the idea that not all men are like your husband (and those men who have an addiction problem with porn).

For me, this issue is not about porn. It's about keeping an open mind when it comes to sex, and never say, "NOOOOOOO!! TABOOOOOO!!!" to anything.

I don't agree that the relationship without porn is "much much better."
I believe that YOUR relationship without your husband's addiction to porn is much much better (i take your word for it).
But for me, it doesn't affect my relationship in any way. My man and I love each other and are deeply passionate for each other with or without porn. It isn't a factor in our relationship at all.

Here are some of your questions:
Q: "Have you dated a guy who doesn't watch porn? Can you really say the the relationship with porn is just as good or better than one without?" "Have you had a relationship without to compare it to actually say that it is better?"

My boyfriend didn't watch porn for yeeeears (he only watched it when he was a teenager like all teenage boys, and then he just "wasn't into it" anymore) until I brought it up. So yea, I dated a guy who didn't watch porn.
And like i said, it didn't change our emotional relationship in anyway.
What it did was it gave us some new ideas to try in bed.

Did porn make our sex life better? No, we made our sex life better.

Q: "I know a lot of people do not believe that porn is selfish but in my case, I have had the oppurtunity of talking many women who's lives have been effected by it. I have seen marriages fall apart, cheating, and lying. I have also had the oppurtunity to hear the men's stories too, how they were effected by, how they have felt since they have stopped, how their marriages have changes and all their relationships in general. All of them will admitt to them becoming more and more selfish, the more they did it."

First of all...you keep on blaming porn because it's "addictive."
Well it's an addiction problem. Not a porn problem.
If a person is addicted to chocolate, then that person has an "addiction problem," not a "chocolate problem". I don't have an addiction problem with chocolate, I don't see why you need to ban chocolate for everyone.

As for marriages that fall apart and the cheating and lying?
Well. People break marriages.
Nothing else can break marriages.
Not their kids, not their parents, not their friends, not money, not unemployment, not porn!!

Porn was possibly a catalyst, but I seriously doubt porn can break a couple who are deeply in love, deeply devoted to each other?
If a man and woman truly love each other, when a problem arises, they will do everything in their power to conquer it TOGETHER. They will communicate, communicate, communicate, even it exhausts them they will not stop communicating to find a way to solve the problem. Porn could be a catalyst, but it can't be a cause. The cause always lies in the man or the woman, or both.

I think those men who cheat and lie do it out of their choice. They were cowards for blaming it on porn "affecting them" instead of taking the responsibility to say, "I have weaknesses. I lied because I chose to lie. I cheated because I chose to cheat." But good for them to admit they had problems. If their will wasn't strong enough then yea, take temptations out of their life.

I'm presuming that one of the ways the men you referred to were selfish was that they spent more time watching porn to get themselves off than giving their wives pleasure.
Bad: Masturbating and watching porn more often than giving his wife orgasms.
That I totally, completely agree!!

But once again....HE is responsible, Porn is not responsible.
Men GOTTA take more responsibilities instead of victimizing themselves by blaming other things!!!!

Q: "You also say that you watch porn with your guy. Could you give that up? or is it needed in your relationship? Would you 'crave' it if you stopped? If you would, you've created that chemical change you claim has to happen."

Just like Moon, yes we can easily give it up. I wouldn't crave it if I stop. I might get curious if I hear something new and wonder, "I wonder how that's done....I wanna learn to do that too." But I won't crave it.
It's like rock-climbing. We tried it, it was fun. On a Saturday afternoon if we are in the mood it'll probably be real fun to go rock climbing again. Sometimes when my body wants some sweat-inducing, adrenaline-evoking exercise I might "crave" it. But if I can't do it ever again for the rest of my life am I gonna wake up in the middle of the night crying inside because I can't? Um. Nope.

It's the same with my guy. He actually had always been the more reluctant and bored one in this whole porn-exploration.

Q: "How is your life better off with porn?
Um. My life isn't better or worse off with porn.
Porn doesn't affect us nearly as seriously as it affected your husband and you.

And some of Mel's questions:
Q: "What kind of porn does you guy watch when you are not around? He doesn't watch it by himself? even if he did you would be cool with that?"
He doesn't watch it. He was never really into porn. He actually started watching it to humor me.
But if he did I would totally be cool with it.
But he is a super devoted, loving boyfriend. I can throw him into the Playboy Mansion for a month and still not worry.

Q: "What if it effects his subconscious overtime, and he may start to develop a naughty habit?"
I LOVE NAUGHTY HABITS!!!!!! I wish my man had MORE naughty habits!

And thanks for the links!

And I won't get into the moral discussion. That is too long and big a discussion.

BooBoo:
thanks for your comments!!!!!!

Ashley,
You are NOT pathetic. You are very young. I remember telling you that many of us have gone through what you are going through now to a certain degree. It is natural for us to doubt ourselves, because of the society we live in. Don't feel bad because of that.

And...my opinions are totally biased and you can ignore me, but I also think you need to DTMFA!!! (Dump That Mother****er Already)!!! He's not a good influence. He doesn't deserve your time. Don't let him damage you anymore. DTMFA!!!!!!!!

--About Ashley's situation, I think what I already said - we should chose the partner who shares our values, priorities, likes, matches our personality, someone who we respect and can accept. Lying and sneaking is wrong, so if I was her I'd dump him. And in the case of addiction it's bad because it's an addiction, like any addiction is bad.

we should choose a partner who shares our values, priorities, likes, someone who we respect and can accept. We should, but considering other peoples"brain wiring" at a particular time in their life, when they may lack good judgement, will undoubtedly make unhealthy decisions. I'm sure most of us lack our own "normal proper" judgment at one point in our life, and think as we look back at our unhealthy reasoning as, "why on earth did I choose this guy?" I suppose we all can't have good judgment most if not all of our life. If only things in life are as black and white as you state in ashleys unfortunate case. Or any one else who may be in her position.

The porn that you may watch, do you know for certain if the woman or women were not abused pshycologically and or physically throughout the making of the film? I know most of you will agree with me when I say that no women should be subjected to that. Which brings another question, what kind of porn does you guy watch when you are not around? He doesn't watch it by himself? Even if he did you would be cool with that?''

--Yes to everything.

How would a consumer of porn know for certain that the woman is treated well? You never genuinely specified. Not to sound pushy, but I really am not aware of the regulations in the porn industry to protect its workers. If you really know that the woman/women are not abused, I figure you would be aware of the regulations. Consider the fact that some vunerable, easily controlled, abused porn actresses/actors are in self denial of the abuse they went through and fail to see the potential long-term severity of the abuse.

I worded one of my original questions weird. "he doesn't watch it by himself?". A better way to ask that is, does he masturbate to porn when you are not around? and it seems that you answered yes, you would be cool with your b/f viewing porn alone. If you are cool with that, would you care to know what he is exposing himself to? If you don't care, would it be safe to assume that you would more then likely not care IF a woman or man was mistreated while making the film?


''What if it effects his subconscious overtime, and he may start to develop a naughty habit?''
''Is it just the reality that these mental disortions developed through porn viewing, addicted or occasional, will inevitably effect one male in our life?''

--What sort of naughty habbit? Do you mean if using a potntially addictive substance or medium will eventually cause addiction? Iinclination to developing an addiction is genetically predisposed so no. In general think we should try to maintain self-control with anything. People who are prone to addiction should obviously better avoid triggers. But as there is a good way of ascertaining the risk no I don't think 100% prevention is necessary


A naughty habit does not always have to be considered an addiction. actually my correction. excuse the word "habit"/"addiction". Think of a naughty act that may take place infrequently. But nevertheless, still may be a potential harmful action provided by a persons b/f whether it be directed towards his mate physically and/or mentally, or to himself.

ex.

Unbeknowest to an individual, they COULD have rewired their brain due to what ever outside element they exposed themselves to briefly at one point in their life. This rewiring may not become apparent right away, but lie dormant in one's mind. Basically, the individual does not crave it, but finds themselves in a particular/rare setting or mindframe due to outside elements and, the action gets set off beyond their control.

and in response to sandra: I was using the word "naughty" in a sarcastic sexual overtone. If you were able to see past this, I really mean naughty as in bad physiologically or physical effects towards a g/f or towards himself. A naughty habit you will wish your b/f does not develop. not too sexy.
or is it? that all depends on the individual.

back to moon:
Not all addictions can be explained through a genetic predisposition, some addictions can be culturally inherited. Do you fail to recoginize this as a simple possibility that has happened in other people's lives? Not ALL peoples addictions could be explained through genetic predisposition and not all people are aware that they could be setting up the premise for a possible future addiction. Again, this porn subject does not always have to go hand in hand with "addiction" to be considered bad.

''You see their are those other women out there whose lives and views of themselves has become distorted and or distraught due to this insurmountable porn access, particulary in the american culture.''

--And due to media, and due to fashion models, and due to other women on the street, and due to the wiring in their brain. So there are many levels on which the issue could be attempted to be solved, and I think the most effective one is in our own choices, and in the brain wiring. Chose a partner who shares our values etc etc, get psychological help.

yes I agree through media, fashion models, and other women on the street who are cultured through the media and models that what they seek to wear is "normal" and is a byproduct of the disorted culture in america specifically. what if our own choices and brain wiring were somewhat distorted by the media as well? Could we ourselves be the proper judge for that if we are part of it and immersed with the culture?

''moon you said porn is not evil and selfish, that may apply to give or take 5 to 10 percent of the population. What about the other folks? It has destroyed lives and torn families apart. Not your problem? Well do you care to be a mild solution, simply by aknowledging that porn brings more bad then good to any society. And that their is more bad to porn then what you describe as simply "tastless and boringly repetitive"?

--Actually mainly why I said this is because I don't like the notion of personifying things and concepts. People can be selfish and evil, not porn. Porn should be regulated. Yes there deffinitely is more bad to it – because it's not regulated enoguh. As for that staement, I don't think it's veryfiable so I can't acknowledge it. But I think more bad comes from inability to make good choices, harmful and pathological mindstates and destructive beghavioral patterns than from porn. Neediness, possessveness, denial. Like I said before, I'm directing all this more towards the mentality than towards porn. We could bad porn from our lives but those psychological issues and harmful patterns won't change. We can either attempt to isolate outselves from everything that potentiates a problem, or we can attempt to solve the problem.

People are capable of being selfish and "evil" as well as porn. You kinda contradicted yourself when you say that porn can not be "evil", but yet their definitely is more bad to it. If we are able to regulate it, would that rule out the possibility that no bad can come out of porn, considering each persons unique brain wiring? Even with mental disorders prevelant in society, No one consumer could get "bad" effects from viewing it?

You say you think more bad comes from an inability to make good choices, harmful and pathological mindstates and destructive behavioral patterns from porn. I think you specifically mean from viewing porn. Well, all of what you have described can and has occured in many porn actresses lives from choosing to make porn itself.

The psychological issues and harmful patterns won't change in the porn industry, as long as the consumer or society denies these facts. If someone were to "bad" mouth porn, then their not capable of changing their psychological issues and harmful patterns? People are not capable of doing both?

It is impossible to attempt to isolate oneself from everything that potentiates a problem, in this case porn. Or perhaps the american sex culture in general. That is alot of isolation, not a reasonable way to live. Yes, I agree we can attempt to solve the problem, whether it be a personal problem or a culturally inherited problem that blankets society.

I have not had time to read most other responses, so if you answered some of these already, I have yet to know.

IN response to GD post all the way ^ up there(too bad these forums aren't better organized)

heres her:

MEL:'I notice a pattern in this forum. When some girl or guy brings up any emotional or personal issues or display any kind of desperation, most of the senior members are on top of it

--If you post somthing expect opinions that you both dislike and dont want to hear, if this upsets you dont post,nobody has been nasty or abusive, if any thing very informative info coming from all sides (you should have been here yrs ago ouch it was very bitchy,i darnt even mention cocoa butter lololol)

--only after reading other peoples experiences and opinions has it made me think,
WHY do we as women accept that it is normal for a guy to disregard a womans feelings on something, which takes me back to your opinion of porn being selfish, yeh purhps your right, but i do not think the women who are in most pron films are abused psychologically and or physically they get paid well and they choose to do it



heres me:

That "something" I posted had to do with emotions, not knowledge of nbe. Does not upset me, more mildy irritating. Of course a senior member would be so quick to suggest to a 'newbie' the solution of "don't post".

I was expecting conflicting opinions, forums are capable of creating debates(nbe related or emotional). From my personal past experience with this forum, when I ask a question pertaining to actually growing my breast, no one wants to respond. This has happened to me numerous times. I notice that the senior members are more quick to respond to naive sometimes confused or flustered SOUNDING "newbies" rather then a newbie that is SLIGHTLY more knowledgable then the average naive SOUNDING Newbies. I really don't know if the newbies who ask certain questions are naive in real life, but I'm basing my judgement from the simple general questions they have brought forth in this forum.

GD-- "but i do not think the women who are in most pron films are abused
psychologically and or physically they get paid well and they choose to do it"


I beg to differ. porn stars do get paid well, does this fact cancel out the possibility that there will be no long term psychologically and or physical effect? They choose to do it themselves? see my response to moon as to why certain people are prone to make bad decisions due to psychological damage (whatever may be the cause, but still damaged).

Hi Mel,

" From my personal past experience with this forum, when I ask a question pertaining to actually growing my breast, no one wants to respond. This has happened to me numerous times. I notice that the senior members are more quick to respond to naive sometimes confused or flustered SOUNDING "newbies" rather then a newbie that is SLIGHTLY more knowledgable then the average naive SOUNDING Newbies. I really don't know if the newbies who ask certain questions are naive in real life, but I'm basing my judgement from the simple general questions they have brought forth in this forum. "

______________________________

I am a 'senior member' (which by the way anyone who applies can obtain - and what you obtain is the ability to edit your posts - no test is made to see if you have superior knowledge of NBE - nor do they give you a downloadable file of NBE information .. darn it!... lol)

---------------------------------------------
1. Asking a question than no one answers - congratulations - you just stumped all the contestants!

Seriously - I don't know many of the things women ask on here. Me posting "Uhhhhhhhhh...Hmmmmmm..." has not proved to be all that helpful. If you want to attract attention to a post that is being neglected then just post 'bump' and it will rise like cream to the top. If it falls then 'bump' again. If you do this daily for at least 10 days in a row I promise I will respond - probably with a "Duurrrrrhhhhh -I dunno" - but unless I have died you will get a response from me.

--------------------------------------

2. Senior members respond to ignorant newbies more than knowledgeable newbies.

It goes something like this:

Answers - $1
Answers requiring thought - $2.50
Correct answers - $5.00
Dumb looks are still free!

It is much easier to point a newbie toward reading the newcomers page or using the search function than it is to figure out whether saw palmetto raises prolactin... or whatever else you clever women have brought up... lol. We used to have a horrible track record with the newbies and our posts were all along the lines of "Scram you newbie... you're doing it wrong" - but we now have mended our ways and seem to out-compete each other in a kind thoughtful and welcoming manner to the newbies. It is just how us 'Senior Members' keep score with each other.

I just love it when someone asks a question that I have info on! Then I win a prize and get another bunch of points in the 'Senior Member' contest where the winner will get an all expenses paid trip to .... Wahhhhhh! we don't get nothing!! Okay - sometimes we get a heartfelt thanks, but usually they just ask us more questions. Talk about an uphill battle ... lol.

Seriously - if you ask me a question I know; if I can read your post within 2 minutes; if I am not working my butt off during a 12 hour day; if I am not grumpy or otherwise in a bad mood..... I love to write novels - sometimes I spend entire days crafting a response (exaggeration meter beginning to rise...) ... I tend not to shut up in other words. Sometimes it is best not to get me started....

So anyway - since you posted this and I had an answer... here ya go!

--------------------------
3. This forum is made up of a lot of charming women who simply have come together to talk about something of interest to them. It is never the same group at any time. Some members have been here for years and have watched the forum go through many, many personality changes. Some members have been here a short time and are eager to find out everything they can. Never take it personally if your questions don't get answered - either ask again or post a direct question to a specific member. I always answer posts directed to me and other members do to... unless of course they have moved on to that big boob land in the sky...


Best wishes,
waxingmoon

I realize no senior members have to go through some kind of test as you say, I was specifically referring to the senior members that usually answer everyones misc questions. Like you, or moon, or wahkika. Every now and then an "old school" member comes out of the woodwork to answer questions. It seems that most newbies will get the best advice when you ladies answer their questions.

I do appreciate your sense of humour.

I stumped all the contestants! no..I would not think so. I have asked some simple stuff too.

well I also appreciate you assurance that if no one else answers, you will. I see you answer alot, and I can't help but to feel slightly burdenous. I don't know! I would think someone who has been on this forum for so many years, and has encountered the same questions over and over, would one day say to herself, "I don't need to do this for others anymore".

you love it when someone asks a question that you have info on!? do I sense some mild passive aggressive witty sarcasm? You would not get a free trip somewhere, for answering questions. What you could and do get is respect from your fellow forum attendees, and a sense that you are important and needed in other peoples lives. And you are important to alot of these ladies and guys.

an uphill battle you don't seem to mind too much. Help people, feel good about yourself, always new knowledge on nbe, and the human body/mind in general.

I would love to get someone like you started! what person in this forum wouldn't?

If you don't mind me asking, Have you yourself grown a considerable amount? I recall you not saying so in your program page, maybe I overlooked it? Are you still on the nbe quest, or do you want to help people, or both?

Hi Mel,

If you had asked me in 2006 before I discovered Eve's forum if I would spend a lot of my free time researching and sharing information on breast enhancement I would have laughed and laughed - no actually I would have turned bright red with embarrassment because I could not at all address the issue of breasts.

Before I began NBE I spent my life as less than an A cup. I mean much, much less. There was hardly any breast tissue and there never had been. I did not fill A cup bra; I did not fill aa cup bras. My breast bone actually stood out further than my breasts did.

But more than me being 2 peas on an ironing board I was caught up in the whole "I don't have breasts" scenario of secret self loathing. Just about everything I thought about my physical body was held up against my lacking breasts. I compared myself to every woman because every woman I met had bigger breasts than me. Needless to say I got through it all by hiding. I have a very large collection of padded bras, breast forms, chicken filets, gel bras... I was always on he look out for some way to 'hide my shame'. I never talked to anyone about it. I just suffered.

The discovery of this thing called NBE and the discover of Eve's forum changed my life. I know people say that about a lot of things - but it seriously changed something that was fundamentally wrong in my relationship with myself. I finally had a forum where I could talk to other women about my problem and even though they all had bigger breasts than me they shared my desire. They also thought there breasts were too small (which was surprising to me because I have yet to see anyone on the before pictures who was smaller than me before I began NBE).

The most amazing change occurred and I can't tell you at what point the healing took place. One day I was still writhing about over my deformity and then one day I was just okay about my small breasts. Eve's forum gave me what I was lacking - perspective.

Of course the research I did also allowed me to resolve a long standing hormonal problem and that plus some of the techniques outlined in my program page has brought me from what I estimated to be a 34aaaa cup to a 34B cup.

The amount my breasts have changed is awesome - I mean for many women this size would still be considered small - but to me - it seems nearly impossible that I am this different.

I am still on an NBE quest - but I have to take time out to deal with continued issues with hormones. My favorite method right now is Noogleberry and it has brought me close to a C cup before I began having fibrocystic symptoms from my estrogen dominance. I fully expect to resolve my ED symptoms and will begin using the Noogleberry regularly. I fully expect I will be able to achieve my dream of filling out a C cup bra.

So, I post here and read the forum for several reasons. First, if I can help someone across that desert of self loathing into a perspective of self acceptance then I am doing good for the universe. Second, human biology and psychology are a lifelong interest of mine and my education and what I do for a living complement my interest here. Third, I have learned more about hormones from this journey than I ever could have any other way and I am happy to share that info with others. Fourth, you guys aren't tired of my humor yet. Fifth - I can't shut up...

So anyway, as I blah, blah, blah some more...

Best wishes,
waxingmoon

I love your posts, Waxingmoon. You're a straight shooter with a great sense of humor. Keep 'em coming!

Best,
wannabecee

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us WaxingMoon. It's almost like you've described how I felt at one time in my life - I still do feel sensitive about stuff like that eg when it comes to girls talking about their bras and going to beach etc I just think I can't go because everyone would be aghast at how flat I am! (I am the same size you were). I remember some trips and some baddd photos where the boys couldn't believe how I had no boobs at all :( That's why I never understand why people say they're flat and they always have something!!

You know how you mentioned that you have estrogen dominance - is that from eating all these boobie foods? Will the same thing happen to us too?

Wondering,

I'm glad to hear of your personal success. It sounds like a process that has no end. Or I guess their is always something new to learn.

Taking into account how you used to feel about yourself and how you now feel more positive concerning your self image, and how you love and accept yourself more then ever, why continue? If my fowardness makes you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to answer that last question. I just had to ask, I can't think of a better way to phrase that question. I noted in the recent past you stating that you prefer a b-cup. I'm sorta into pshycology as well, and wonder at times if I will inevitably feel the same way that most other women feel when on the nbe magical quest.

I feel right now that if I am to achieve getting into a b-cup of any size, then I would discontinue and be satisfied.

Was it always your dream to be a C-cup, especially when you were 34aaa?

does the noogleberry actually work?

If you don't mind me asking, what is your field of occupation? medical?

Hi 14AAA,

Although some women may create a hormonal imbalance from the use of herbs for NBE, estrogen dominance usually occurs on its own due to other forces effecting the often fluctuating state of women's hormones. Estrogen dominance is most often associated with pre-menopause, but it can occur if a woman has cycles where she does not ovulate.

I can recall the beginning of many of my estrogen dominance symptoms when I was about 15 years old. I think a long standing hormonal imbalance is why I did not develop breasts normally in the first place and why I responded so positively breast-wise when I balanced my hormones.

Herbal NBE that is most likely to negatively influence a woman toward estrogen dominance is that which uses very strong phytoestrogens like PM, red clover and possibly soy. A woman who is predisposed to estrogen dominance may develop symptoms from some of the less potent phytoestrogens. It is good to know the symptoms of ED because if you collect too many of them during your routine you should modify or else run the risk of hormonal imbalance.

Hi Mel,

I go back and forth regarding where I want to stop my NBE progress. When I first started NBE I had only one goal which was to become an A cup. I thought 'Just give me an A cup and then I will be happy - but I thought this because I had no concept of what an A cup would look like on me.

The A cup came and I was feeling very good about it, but it did not look as big as I thought it would. I was also battling the Maca effect of super-sizing my ass, so I was a bit distracted. I began to feel uncomfortable in my bras and was confused as to whether I needed a bigger strap size - Nope - the problem was I had skated past A cup and had become a B cup.

The thing is that a B cup on me does not look like what I thought it would. Breast shape has a lot to do with it. My breasts are rather wide I guess and they don't project out as much forward as they do toward the sides. When I am without a bra they certainly don't seem as big as they do when they are gathered closer together. I would love to see how they would look as a C cup. Would they 'hang' and have that underside bulge that I see on so many breasts or would they just grow steadily wider. I am curious so I am going to find out.

The really great thing is the Noogleberry. When I used it consistently twice a day for several months if brought me right up to that elusive C cup measurement. I was almost there then - bam - fibrocytic breast lump and pain which told me I was seriously out of balance and into estrogen dominance. My boob obsession caused me to discount all the lesser symptoms and I have been battling it now and will be for months to come. The last herb I used for NBE was Goat's rue and apparently it is somewhat estrogenic which threw me to the estrogen dominance lions. I am ruing the Goat' rue now...

Noogleberry is fascinating. It takes a month or two for most women to begin to retain swelling but many achieve 1 or more cup size difference that is constant throughout the day. The catch is that this swelling only becomes permanent after a long time of consistent use - we are talking possibly two years before a cup size of growth can take place. The good news is that during that two years the user has the greater cup size.

I like the idea of Noogleberry because it does not mess with my hormones. It gives a reasonably quick result and it is not hard to do. If I get to the C cup and don't like the look then I can back off and go down without having made a permanent change. If I like the C cup then I can just persist for a couple of years and make it permanent.

As far as my occupation - I train others to properly exercise. My education is from the medical end of things and yes, forgive me for being vague but I have a strong need for privacy. It is not that I am some sort of public figure that must not be 'outed'. It is just that I have erected a huge wall between my public and my private life. NBE is my private life. You are all part of my private life.

Sorry for being so wordy...

Best wishes,
waxingmoon