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Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 30 2009 at 11:12 AM
Arissa-serai  (Login Arissa-serai)

Hi, I hope someone can provide me with opinions/ suggestions/ pointers on my strategy devised for my situation of being low estrogen/ even lower progesterone.

Profile: Age 23, 32A, prone to face and back acne

Strategy devised (adapted and altered from info provided in this site):

To first increase progesterone level: For first 2 weeks:

*1000mg, vitamin C, once in the morning

*75mg protein (perhaps soy protein powder? Heard too much soy is bad for the legs), once in the morning

*½ teaspoon progesterone cream “2 times a day to inner thighs, wrist,tummy, underneath inside of arms-just be sure to rub it on a different spot each time instead of the same spot everytime.” – is it really necessary to stop using this during period?

*Gym 3 times a week

Still continuing with the above, Then add on (to increase estrogen level):

*Multivitamin, once in the morning

*Fenugreek: 2 capsules 3 times daily (about 3000mg – might start off with 2000mg and slowly increase after a month), 1 hr b4 food or 2-3hrs after meal & 1/2hr b4 bed (mixed with soy choc milk or fruit punch and drink lots of water to prevent acne) – should I start off with fennel instead since I have some mild acne problems?

*“SawPalmetto-320mg 1/2 hr b4 bed” – was told that adding some other herb to fenugreek will provide better results. Was suggested that 500mg of goat’s rue will be good as well. Is it better to take goat’s rue or SP? Kinda prefer not taking SP coz of its weight-gaining effects, but then it seems fenugreek reqs some other herb to go along to get better results.

*Fenugreek powder (2 capsules) mixed in borage oil/EPO in equal quantities, massage once at night

Does anyone know if this strategy is ok for me? I know I need to trial and error but as in, does anyone know if there is anything in the strategy that does not go with each other and will cause bad effects?

Is it alright to continue with both the strategies to increase the progesterone level and estrogen level at the same time? Like does the progesterone cream go along with fenugreek?

Would really appreciate if someone can help me with this. =)


 
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StacyEllen
(no login)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 30 2009, 12:14 PM 

just one thought....i don't think soy is the best option for gals trying to up their proten. Whey powder is the protein that many nutritionists say is best.

 
 
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 30 2009, 4:10 PM 

Hi Arissa-serai,

First of all, how do you know you are Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone? Did you use the information on the newcomers thread alone or have you also had saliva tests. The reason I ask is because we need to be sure before you at such a young age begin this project.

Although it is unlikely at your age, it is not impossible that you have low estrogen and low progesterone. However, the symptoms for these conditions are also the symptoms for other endocrine disorders let's be absolutely sure that you are treating the right thing.

So, my first advice is get two saliva tests done. One for estrodiol done about 5 or 6 of your cycle. One for progesterone done about day 22 - 25 of your cycle. If the results of these tests will confirm you hypothesis, you can then proceed with confidence.

Now about the plan you are considering, if indeed you find you need to use it.

----------------------------------------
*1000mg, vitamin C, once in the morning
-- good idea, this will improve your health and increase your chances of NBE.

-------------------------------------------
*75mg protein (perhaps soy protein powder? Heard too much soy is bad for the legs), once in the morning
--- the total amount of protein is a good idea, but your body is only able to digest about 30 grams of protein at a time. You would need to divide this into at least 2 drinks (taken at least 2 hours apart). Also my advice would be to use whey or egg white protein powder. Soy can seriously interfere with your thyroid, especially if you have estrogen dominance.

---------------------------------
*½ teaspoon progesterone cream “2 times a day to inner thighs, wrist,tummy, underneath inside of arms-just be sure to rub it on a different spot each time instead of the same spot everytime.” – is it really necessary to stop using this during period?
--- Not unless you have a saliva test to prove you need it. You must learn more about use of progesterone cream and I suggest the book by Dr John Lee 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause'. This book is one of the best for learning how and why to use progesterone cream. Even though you are years away from premenopause it still would apply if you need to use PC. In that book you will learn where to put the cream (thin skinned areas) and why it is so important to use it only during day 12 - 28 of your cycle. You will also learn what would be the correct dosage for your situation - probably more like just one application per day. But again - don't do this unless you have a saliva test showing you are low in progesterone.

--------------------------------
*Gym 3 times a week
--- Absolutely a great idea. This will improve your health and lower your stress levels which will help you in so many ways.


----------------------------------
*Multivitamin, once in the morning
--- Always a good idea to make sure you have the necessary vitamins you need each day.

------------------------------------------
*Fenugreek: 2 capsules 3 times daily (about 3000mg – might start off with 2000mg and slowly increase after a month), 1 hr b4 food or 2-3hrs after meal & 1/2hr b4 bed (mixed with soy choc milk or fruit punch and drink lots of water to prevent acne) – should I start off with fennel instead since I have some mild acne problems?
--- The Fenugreek could aggravate your acne. For your situation if indeed you do have low estrogen I would suggest using Fennel. Fennel is a fairly low dosage phytoestrogen and is suitable for someone with estrogen dominance. It has never been shown to have side effects like fenugreek and is a positive for NBE.

--------------------------------------
*“SawPalmetto-320mg 1/2 hr b4 bed” – was told that adding some other herb to fenugreek will provide better results. Was suggested that 500mg of goat’s rue will be good as well. Is it better to take goat’s rue or SP? Kinda prefer not taking SP coz of its weight-gaining effects, but then it seems fenugreek reqs some other herb to go along to get better results.
--- Don't take the Saw Palmetto. This should be used only if you for sure have high testosterone. I would suggest Maca instead since you are wanting to gain weight.

---------------------------------
*Fenugreek powder (2 capsules) mixed in borage oil/EPO in equal quantities, massage once at night
--- This would be fine as a topical and you will be able to avoid the acne problems using Fenugreek in this way.

*********************************************************************

I can see you put a lot of thought into this plan. That is great. Right now get some more information about your hormone levels using the saliva tests. If indeed you have estrogen dominance then you will want to concentrate on resolving that first. The changes I recommended would be better for estrogen dominance.

If your progesterone really is low then treating that will immediately improve your low estrogen.

I look forward to hearing more from you and finding out your saliva test results. You did a great job in your research and I am sure you are ready to get started, but just a little bit longer to make sure you have all the facts you need.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon

 
 
Arissa-serai
(Login Arissa-serai)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 30 2009, 7:52 PM 

Hi Waxingmoon, thanks a lot for your prompt response and insightful advice.

I have taken a saliva test by Dr. John Lee (ZRT labs) recommended in this forum. I called the lab to ask what does my result mean and she told me that both my estrogen and progesterone levels are lower than normal.

My lab results are as follows (I think I took my sample sometime between the 19-22 day of e cycle):

Estradiol (saliva)
Out of range (1.1L)
Correct range: 1.3-3.3 for premenopausal (luteal)

Progesterone (saliva)
Out of range (50L)
Correct range: 75-270 premenopausal

Ratio: Pg/E2
Out of range: 45L
Optimal: 100-500 when E2 1.3-3.3

For the results just based on the symptoms I ticked off (not by saliva testing):

Very very very mildly tend towards high cortisol and high androgens (DHEA/Testosterone)

Estrogen Dominance/Progesterone Deficiency: 8.6 (ok range)
Estrogen/Progesterone Deficiency: 5.3 (ok too)

So does it mean I'm indeed estrogen dominant (low estrogen/ even lower progesterone)? And if so, do you think it is necessary that I use a progesterone cream, or will it be sufficient to just take vitamin C and protein powder?

I have a few more questions which I hope you can help me with to get started on my program:

*For fennel, is it also like fenugreek in terms of the dosage I should take daily (about 2 caps 3 times a day; 2000-3000mg; max of 3000+mg)?

*Actually I prefer not to take maca coz of the possible weight gain. But I read it is less effective if I take fennel alone. Is there another herb that you can recommend to improve the effects of fennel?

*Lastly, I was thinking of just taking Vitamin C and protein to increase my progesterone level for about 2 weeks before my menstrual cycle, and then start on herbs like fennel. How can I tell if my progesterone level has been adjusted such that I am ready to increase my estrogen level? And is there a particular day of the cycle that I should start my program (of taking fennel etc)?

Thank you so much for kindly helping. =)

 
 
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 30 2009, 9:36 PM 

Hi Arissa-serai,

I am glad you have done a saliva test. Yes, it does seem your progesterone is lower than it should be. You estrogen is also a little low.

As far as symptoms, you might check out this list I created if you haven't discovered it already:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/522223/thread/1215963710/last-1243911994/Estrogen+Dominance+and+Deficiency+symptom+list...

It goes a little further than they list they have on Dr. Lee's website. If several of these symptoms seem to relate to your condition I would say you have pinpointed that you are estrogen dominant and indeed with low estrogen and even lower progesterone.

I agree that you should increase your vitamin C and protein to try and encourage your body to produce more progesterone on its own. Perhaps your body is not creating enough progesterone because it does not have enough raw materials. The biggest mystery is why your body does not produce enough hormones - the tests only show your symptoms, not the cause of those symptoms.

As far as using the progesterone cream - it might help you. If you were willing to use a low dosage (20mg per day) and use it for about 3 months or so, you should do fine with the progesterone cream. It may just jump start your body back into its own healthful rhythm and you would not need anymore. You must never use it prior to day 12 so that you will allow your body to ovulate if it will. You then use the cream until the start of your period. You always apply the cream to thin skinned areas so it will go into circulation instead of being stored in body fat. You rotate the application sites to assist with better absorption. If you wanted to use progesterone cream then I advise getting Dr. Lee's book - it is very helpful.

As far as herbs, start with small amounts and ramp up. I think the amount you are wanting is not necessary.

For fennel try 1 cap per day for a week then increase to two caps then finally a maximum of 4 caps per day. You only have so many estrogen receptors and you do not want to swamp them with this phytoestrogen. The lower dosage will increase your total body estrogen while a larger dose might actually reduce it (by blocking the receptors from your body's more potent natural estrogen).

If you don't want to use Fenugreek (it did make my face break out), you might try goat's rue. Like with the fennel start with a single cap then ramp up to the dosage suggested on the bottle. No need to go overboard.

As far as when to take the herbs, any day would be fine to begin. For a while I used my herbs only during the first 12 days of my cycle and then used progesterone cream from day 12 - 28. But it may or may not make much difference. The theory behind what I did was to use estrogenic herbs during the first part of the cycle when estrogen was building then stop the estrogenic during the last part of the cycle when progesterone was building. As a theory it is fine, but I don't know if it made much difference for me.

You will know if your progesterone is better when your symptoms begin to diminish. It will not be a quick fix. Expect to be dealing with this for a matter of months. Your total NBE regime may last 1 - 2 years. Patience will be an asset.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon


 
 
Sandra
(Login SandraDD)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 31 2009, 12:51 PM 

Arissa-serai,

Have you considered using a natural progesterone cream?

I have only been using it for 2 weeks (14th-28th day of my cycle) but I have noticed very significant changes in my breast. It's probably also a whole bunch of other stuff I'm doing (massaging, herbs, collagen, etc) but it's like as soon as I started applying the progesterone cream everybody's waking up.

I am using the Wellsprings Serenity Natural Progesterone Cream. It's actually made by Dr. Lee. You use it once in the morning and once at night and apply the cream on your face, neck, upper chest, inner arms, abs and inner thighs. It is supposed to help BOTH your progesterone AND estrogen levels. I really think it's worth a try.

I actually just left a lingerie shop and I tried on a 32D bra!!!
I am NOT a D cup in any way, I know and I'm not gonna get delusional (the bra is Asian so it's fitted a little differently plus it was PADDED). And if you look at my numbers I'm really still a B cup, but the numbers don't reflect how the upper side of my breasts used to be flatter and now there is a nice bulge. Anyway, I had to take out the padding from my 32C bra a few days ago because it was very uncomfortable and I just couldn't resist going into a lingerie store to see what it feels like to try on a D cup. The bra was padded however I still filled it up nicely (with padding!) but it felt ****ing AWESOME!!!!

So really give the progesterone cream some thought. I was a little bit low in estrogen but my progesterone level was pretty normal. I think if it's both low for you then it might make a even more significant difference.

 
 
itsjust4fun91
(Login itsjust4fun91)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

August 31 2009, 2:14 PM 

I have used progesterone in the past and can say for me it did effect my breast, BUT once my hormones were balanced out and I stopped the cream, it didn't 100% last. The first result I got from it breast wise, was that they filled back out to pre breastfeeding size and shape. I was thrilled with that alone, the next thing that happened was toward the end of my use, when my hormones were leveled back out but I was still using it, the excess progesterone caused swelling in the breast with my cycle. They became very enlarged and hard as if I were breast feeding again.This would only occur during the two weeks prior to my period each month. Once I stopped the cream, the swelling and hardness went away, but the fullness and pre breastfeding shape remained. So for me the progesterone did help with my breast and I was very happy with that side effect even if it wasn't the reason I began progesterone at the time.

Seeing those results though did lead me eventually to begin questioning what other things could effect breast growth and that's how I came to NBE. I mean after seeing it with my own eyes that taking something can change it, I was very open to the thought that other things could as well.

The thing with progesterone cream though is that "SOME" women only need it temporarily to get things back on track. If you are one of those women, then continueing to use it after you are balanced back out can lead to imbalances also. Slathering on large amounts can also lead to problems. I know it's temping because when you start seeing results you think wow. if this amount works this well, what would twice or three times that amount do. It just doesn't work that way though and you can end up on a very emotional rollercoaster that I like to call the sybil effect. LOL. One second you're normal, the next you're crying or screaming, and 5 seconds later you finish off the episode with laughing, then a shocked feeling of what the heck just happened? And a lot of embarrassment if someone witnessed the whole thing. LOL

It took me a year of using progesterone, taking my vitamins and exercising, to get my hormones balanced back out. I swear by the stuff as I know it saved my sanity. When used properly, progesterone cream for some women is nothing short of a miracle! But, always be vigilant while using it. Pay attention to what your body is telling you and know when it might be time that you can either lower your dose or can stop.

Melissa

 
 
Sandra
(Login SandraDD)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

September 1 2009, 2:07 AM 

Melissa,

thanks for sharing your experience!! :)

 
 
Arissa-serai
(Login Arissa-serai)

Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!

September 1 2009, 11:46 AM 

Hi all, thank u so much for being so warm and helpful.

From all your advices, I think perhaps I will start with vitamin C and whey protein and progesterone cream (20mg per day) for about tentatively 3 months (only from day 12 to 28).

After that, I will stop the progesterone cream while still continuing with the vitamin C and protein daily, and I will start taking fennel pills (daily) and apply fenugreek powder mixed with borage oil to massage daily.

Hopefully 3 months of using the progesterone cream is just nice in that it helps to correct my progesterone levels and it won't make me get on a super crazy emotional rollar coaster.. lol.. then I can start with the fennel pills and fenugreek to start increasing my estrogen level.

Really hope this strategy is ok and will work.

Once again, thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and for your kind advices. =)

 
 
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