I have been noticing recently that my pony is not really black ! She is registered as black on her passport , and under certain light conditions she LOOKS black. Last summer I did notice that she sometimes looked dark brown especially in bright sunlight, but she did look black in on dull days. I put this down to the sun maybe bleaching her coat. Her winter coat was the same at the start of winter , black in dull light and very dark chocolate brown in bright light. She has been stabled at night and rugged all winter so the sun can not have bleached her coat. Now that she is losing her winter coat , the finer summer coat is very definitely dark chocolate brown with definite black points on her legs , ears , mane , tail and muzzle. This shows up more on bright days , with her appearing to be black on dull days.
She has also developed some cream hairs around her eyes , on the sides of her muzzle and very obviously under her tail. The skin under her tail is pinkish brown.
I have taken some pictures of her this morning , showing close up shots of her "new" colour. I'm just off to upload them to my photobucket account so will post them later.

Ok , here are some pictures of her. My apologies for the amount.
April 2008 just after I bought her - Black but with some brown showing on her shoulder. I thought it was just dirt as she had been kept in a barn with other unhandled 2 year olds.
[IMG][/IMG]
June 2008 - Looks brown but could have been the sun bleaching her coat.
[IMG][/IMG]
August 2008 - Black ? Summer coat but not in bright sunshine.
[IMG][/IMG]
October 2008 - Black again ? Her winter coat had just started growing in.
[IMG][/IMG]
December 2008 - Black ?
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
January 2009 - Black ........
[IMG][/IMG]
.......or Brown?
[IMG][/IMG]
And now for the interesting bit. February 22nd 2009.
Side on , she looks Black. Her summer coat is starting to grow in.
[IMG][/IMG]
On an angle from behind , she has a definite brown hint.
[IMG][/IMG]
From the back , she is not obviously brown ,
[IMG][/IMG]
...but with a tail bandage on there are very clear cream hairs under her tail. Her tail was washed 1 week ago. The skin in this area is pinkish brown.
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
She also has cream hairs towards the inside of the back of her thighs.
[IMG][/IMG]
Her flanks , either straight on or on an angle from the front look black.....
[IMG][/IMG]
...but on an angle from behind , they are clearly brown.
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
Her head now shows very obvious cream hairs around her eyes , muzzle and inside her ears.
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
Although sometimes hard to see , she has clearly defined black markings (points) around her lips , nostrils and the edges of her ears. (Her lower legs also look black even when her body looks brown).
The back of her ear , turned away from the camera looks chocolate brown all over...
[IMG][/IMG]
.. turned towards the camera shows a clear black edge...
[IMG][/IMG]
...and from behind her head , also shows clear black edges.
[IMG][/IMG]

What colour are her parents, grandparents and great-grandparents registered as?

We have three possibilities here:

1) Sooty brown: i.e. black-brown, sooty gene acting on brown basecoat

2) Fading black: not yet been genetically identified but possibly linked to Mushroom

3) Smoky black: most likely option bearing in mind the pinkish skin, creamy hairs, and the slightly-dilute looking eye colour, which is a cream gene acting on black basecoat. If she has a cream-dilute parent (buckskin or palomino) that would clinch it, pretty much, or a 'black' parent descended from a cream-dilute.

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!

I'm really interested in athe results as our boy is just the same but without the cream, so not really the same at all

He is passported as black but goes a lovely dark chocolate in summer or maybe it's in between coats, with black points and a dorsal stripe, however we do tend to ignore this and still say he's black as it's less complicated

Susie, Seaspirit know a lot more about colour genetics than I do but as I was reading your descritpion I was thinking sooty bay. I say bay as opposed to brown as it would appear she retains black points/mane/tail and the cream shading on the extremeties is not uncommon in bays.

Beverley, your lads sire was jet black from birth to death - but he remained entire and hormones can affect colour. His sire (your lads grandsire) was jet black until he was gelded (in his very late teens) whereupon within less than a year he had gone a deep but inmistakeable bay. Oh and granddam on that side was also black.

The Peasants Are Revolting...

www.forestuprising.org.uk

forestuprising@live.co.uk

Thanks Tina, Glad to know our boy is black even when he's not (I love blacks)
These hormones have a lot to answer to

Thanks for the replies .
Her breeding is as follows - Rowhill Nightingale (reg as black)
Sire - Bakeburn Jethro - bay.
Jethro is by Bakeburn Brewen Bear (bay) , out of Bakeburn Cindy (bay).
Bakeburn Brewen Bear - Fernhill Jester(chestnut roan) X Belle Vue Gussie (bay).
Fernhill Jester - Wooton Sovereign(chestnut) X Fernhill Sheba (chestnut roan).
Wooton Sovereign - Hightown Streak(chestnut) X Wooton Goldie(bay)
Fernhill Sheba - Mudeford Streak(grey) X Betty Of Fernhill(chestnut roan).
Belle Vue Gussie - Earl(bay) X Newtown Primrose(light bay).
Earl - Oakley Firelight(bay) X Randalls Burnside(bay).
Newtown Primrose - Fritham Conkers(chestnut) X Newtown Starlight(brown).

Bakeburn Cindy - Bakeburn Benjamin(brown) X Fijal Ophelia(chestnut).
Bakeburn Benjamin - Rodlease High Jinks(black/brown) X Rodlease Wonders Fantasie(brown).
Rodlease High Jinks - Katric Capers(dark bay/brown) X Boundway Sable(brown).
Rodlease Wonders Fantasie - Sweet Hills Tango(bay) X Marley May Wonder(black).
Fijal Ophelia - Bridgelea Candy Cane(brown) X Phoenix Of Fijal(bay).
Bridgelea Candy Cane - KNIGHTWOOD SPITFIRE(buckskin) X Leighclose Candy Tuft(brown).
Phoenix of Fijal - Maybee(black/brown) X Ruby II (?).

Dam - Bishops Ditch Mistake(?)
Bishops Ditch Mistake - East Boldre Titanic (reg as bruin on Belgian NF pony site) X Rowhill Blossom(?).
East Boldre Titanic - Monkshorn Trooper(bay) X Amy(grey)*.
Monkshorn Trooper - Sovereign(bay) X Monkshorn Raven(black).
Sovereign - Bakeburn Brewen Bear(bay) X Frolicsome of Hatfield(bay).
Monkshorn Raven - Lavender Blue(brown) X Monkshorn Blackberry(black).
AMY - this may not be correct as there are 2 NF Amys on all breed pedigree. Varends Pedro(dark chestnut) X Angelica(?).
Varends Pedro - Wooton Bracken(bay) X Priory Pavlova(dark chestnut).
Angelica - Zuidpools Amoro Van Nomad(grey) X ??

This Amy was foaled in 1991. The "other" Amy was foaled in 1986 and is by East Boldre Meadow Hymn(1977) out of Image(1976) no colour info available for 2nd Amy.
I hope this isn't too confusing ! I have put a (?) where the colour is not stated.
I do not know what colour my pony's dam is , or the colour and breeding of her dams dam Rowhill Blossom. Bishops Ditch Mistake belongs to Alan Ingram.
Below is a link to my pony's pedigree on all breed pedigree.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rowhill+nightingale

hi my black horse use to go Red/brown in the summer
yet winter asblack as coal

You need to find out what colour Mistake was!! There doesn't seem to be any cream gene possibility lurking on the sire's side at all.

Tina's dead right in saying that sooty bays can appear incredibly black as entires (male hormones and dietary sugar can both affect the expression of the sooty gene). This also explains why many sooties go redder in the winter - less sugar in the diet.

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!

Thanks for that SeaSpirit .
Would the breed society be able to give me this information or would it be better to contact my pony's breeder ?
Also , would a mare's hormones have the same effect on colour as an entire male , and would diet have any influence ?
She is currently fed Alfa-A Lite , speedibeet and Blue Chip Original balancer. She has been having haylage at night in her stable until 2 weeks ago when I changed to hay. She is also fairly well muscled for an unbroken pony as I use a body brush with lots of elbow grease on her crest , shoulders and quarters. I'm preparing her for showing in hand and trying to avoid the fat & flabby 3 year old look commonly seen in the showring.

Your pony is stunning. I am a total sucker for a black coat. good luck showing her. I expect you will be in the ribbons! My lulu is also black (and white) and some times brown. she is not a new forest so will post some photos on the general equine forum!!!

Ask Alan! If he still has Mistake, go over and see her, get some piccies of her, and post them! (If colour not obvious, close-ups of eyes, muzzle, under-tail, underbelly and insides of thighs and soft skin behind elbows).

Mare hormones definitely also affect sooty expression, and the speedibeet would certainly intensify sooty. Haylage can, too, depending on when it was made, weather conditions, sugar content, etc! Remember that anything registered as 'black' could be a smoky black - so even if there's a long line of blacks which traces back to a cream-dilute, they could all have been smokies!

I notice Titanic's dam was grey - cream can hide in there, as any colour can go grey, including buckskins, sooty buckskins, palominos' etc. etc. Titanic's 'bruin' could have been brown, brown-buckskin, sooty buckskin, or anything else which 'looked' brown!

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!

Thankyou SeaSpirit, you are being extremely helpful and I really appreciate that .
The reason I am asking about my pony's colour is that I would like to breed from her in the future. The stallion I have in mind has at least 1 son who is extremely light bay with brown points rather than black (possible buckskin ?). The stallion himself is a bay.
I would love to be able to see my pony's mother and take photographs. Unfortunately , I live about 400 miles away. I do know that Bakeburn Jethro was running at Dibden in 2005 , the year my pony was concieved. I presume that is where mum is. I plan to come down to the New Forest for a holiday sometime so could maybe see where my pony was born.
The best I could do to find out what colour my pony's mum is , is to write to Alan at the address on my pony's passport .
(p.s. - I found a picture of a half brother to Jethro on a French website.The pony is by Bakeburn Brewen Bear and he is a beautiful sooty buckskin ! There are only 3 ponies in his pedigree which are not in my pony's pedigree , his dam , dam's dam and both of her parents. Everything else is there in my pony's pedigree ).

Benji as a yearling (by Bakeburn Brewen Bear out of Petronella-grey)



Your pony is looking lovely, no matter what colour she is!

not alot of help but look at the sprattsdaown jetsum post on the newforestpony forum he is black in one picture then brown in the next

If there's a possibility that there's a cream gene hiding in there, don;t put her to anything else with a cream gene unless you;re happy with the possibility that you could end up with a double-cream dilute. The can be very pretty -particularly the perlinos and smoky creams - but can only go on the X-register.



Having said that, if you want to be able to guarantee buckskin foals, your best bet is always to put a perlino from a long line of bay-based animals to a bay from a long line of bays!

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!

Thanks again SeaSpirit .
Just found something else which may be of interest. I was browsing through the classified ads , foals & youngstock. On the second page there is a "palomino filly foal" (ad number 23628). She's by Jethro , out of a buckskin/dun part bred mare. The mare is by Rushmoor Playwright. I found this interesting as the foal has dark skin around its muzzle and slightly darker edges to its ears. (I secretly want the foal as it's my pony's half sister ).

Palamino foal out of a buckskin mare could well have got its cream gene from the buckskin mare, rather than the sire. The only thing you can guarantee there is that both sire and dam are carrying the red gene - palamino requires a chestnut basecoat, which means red has to have been inherited from both parents.

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!

changing colours!
i have a 3yr old gelding, when i first had him at 4mths old, he was orange ginger, then he moved to a really bright chestnut, and then to a deep rich, gorgeous chocolate liver colour, ( <- i wish he'd stayed that colour) and is now proper ginger! his mane is flaxen in one light, and then gray as an old man in the next, but can then appear quite dark when the wind fluffs it up. <br> i think that the strength of the sunlight does affect how we see colours, and the intensity of that colour, if the it summer the sun is closer to us, making the light stronger and brighter, where as in the winter its further away and usually hidden by clouds, makeing couloers seem less intense.

Does he go dark again in his summer coat? He definitely has sooty there; most sooties go darker in summer coat, but you can always 'intensify' it in the winter by feeding sugar beet. It sounds as though his mane has a mix of flaxen and sooty hairs; he could well have rabicano in there as well, which really lightens up the mane if it's present, as it chucks a load of white hairs into the mix!

---

..Currently residing in the Lunius-Genacy Beta Quadrant. It's beta because it hasn't been fully de-bugged yet....
Check Out SeaSpirit's Used Saddle List!