I have seen a section about NF ponies on a showing website - and I was interested to see it said

"The Council of the above Society is very concerned at the loss of native pony type in the Breed, due to breeding away from the native habitat. Judges are, therefore, requested to give preference to ponies with depth and bone, even at the expense of quality. Action should be straight, with free movement, but not exaggerated pointed toes. Over refined heads and light bone are neither typical nor desirable"

I looked on the society website and could not see anything about this concern. I dont do lots of top level showing so does not really affect me and even if I did my pony is a big headed chunky boned forester rather than the lighter type. There do seem to be lots of ligher more refined sports type foresters about now especially overseas so wondered perhaps if this information is outdated?

Not an expert at all, but we do know that for a while a lot iof M&M judges were judging on size and some final line ups looked like a size graph with the biggest first, smallest last (happened to us). This year at the New Forest Show the forest and stud breds were looking a very strong 'type' and judging seemed informed, with forest breds performing well against stude breds. There is no lower limit to the height and some judges seem to find it hard to see this 'type' in both the small and larger ponies. Also some ponies are 'showfat' and others at sports weight which can make it harder. Breeders are being encouraged to try and keep the smaller lines going, and forest bred ponies have a slight tendency to be smaller although when done on good grazing they can reach maximum height. I have seen experienced New Forest judges down grade ponies that seem light in bone. The pony should be able to drive as well as ride. Some of the older classic type of pony is quite low in the whithers whereas some with a lot of the 'improved blood'(thoroughbred, arab, and highland) that the Victorians added can look like little thoroughbreds.

No not out of date, sadly just not always taken on board, by judges and breeders. I think that excerpt is from the NPS guide to judges isn't it? A couple of us were talking about this problem at a show the other day, and its something I've seen in show dogs too (I'm a dog show judge/breeder too).

Native breeds have evolved to do a job of work in a specific part of the world, and that job/terrain will have dictated the way they are made/move/look. When different breeds compete against each other, it can be harder for the breeds that are 'less flashy' in their looks or movement (e.g. NF, Exmoor...) to compete against those who have eye catching movement (e.g. Welsh) or glamorous looks (Fell,Welsh etc). Sadly what inevitably happens is that breeders start trying to breed something (or breed something by accident even) that moves/looks more glam to catch teh judges eye. It wins, others see this and copy, before you know it, a whole breed can be changed! You end up with a 'generic show breed' that has lost much of its breed type in favour of the prettier head, the flashier movement, the shorter back, the longer leg etc etc.

So you continue to be proud of your 'proper' forester, and long may they continue to be bred by breeders who care about type over winning, and be placed by judges who understand breed type over homogenous sports ponies...

The Peasants Are Revolting...

www.forestuprising.org.uk

forestuprising@live.co.uk

i have had both "stud" bred and "forest" bred ponies each have different quality,depth and amount of bone,although my stud bred pony has got more bone than my forest bred one does.
unfortunatley it always comes down to a judges prefered type weather it be the sport pony type,the hunter pony type,working hunter type of the flashy type.

i am going for my young judges training next year so i think it will be very intersting to see what information they give "as to the correct type"

I don't know that you can say that about the exmoor any more Tina. Modern exmoors are much much prettier than they used to be and have smaller heads and much flashier action. The exmoor is the new dartmoor

The NPS & HOYS mixed M&M qualifiers are going to be the ruin of the british native pony breeds, in my opinion. In just a few decades they're all going to look the same



http://www.nfstallions.info/ . . .http://www.forestuprising.org.uk/ . . . http://forestchat.co.uk/

Exactly my point Judy, the Forester and the Connie have gone the same way. We NF people mutter about how hard it is to compete against the flashy Connies with their daisy cutter action - but they too are meant to be more workmanlike and chunky really!

As to what 'type' a judge prefers, well yes, there will always be some room for difference, but it should never be as extreme as its now becoming. I sometimes sit at the ringside (or even in the class) and think "what breed is that" about what turns out to be a NF with a dainty little welsh head and show pony movement...

In the dog world, my main breed was bearded collies who were meant to be able to spend a day on a Scottish hill side, effortlessly covering undulating ground for hours on end. Some of the top winners in the breed today would be lame within minutes, having such uneconomical action, with toes stubbed on rocks and tendons sprained as they hit a dip, a body so short and inflexible they cannot twist and turn on a sixpence as the breeds job demanded, a jaw too weak to 'hold' a sheep or cow because the heads have become too refined etc. etc. All because a glamorous daisy cutting action on a squarer body with an elegant swan neck and fine chiselled head is better able to compete in the big ring with standard poodles and afghan hounds, great danes and schnauzers who 'float' elegantly round a smoothly carpeted or new mown ring.

Perhaps we should show on heathland - that would sort some of them out!

The Peasants Are Revolting...

www.forestuprising.org.uk

forestuprising@live.co.uk

Interesting discussion.

I used to show, breed and judge Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and at the very first judging seminar I ever attended, the first thing we were told that the most important aspect of judging is type, the breed should be obvious (you wouldn't want a Cavalier that looks like a small Springer, for example, or a poor example of a Cocker etc). The problem with the New Forest pony is the complete lack of type because of the infusion over the years of the TB, Arab, Welsh etc. My main criticism of the NF pony is the fact that it is pretty much the one native breed that is not instantly identifiable which I think is very sad. I have two NFs, one yearling and one 2 year old. The 2 year old is as "typical" a NF as you can get (and looks like the NF pony illustration in my "Observers Book of Horses and Ponies" of the mid 1950s). The yearling, on the other hand, despite being "pure" NF with some outstanding ponies behind him, looks like a TBxNF. He's a totally different type altogether, long elegant legs etc.

And again, thats the problem Foresters, as you will know from the dog world, different genes can be inherited even in repeat matings, so even though your pony might have some very 'typey' ponies in his pedigree, if subsequent breeders choose to breed on from ones who display the untypical genes rather than the typical ones, over time the typical ones become harder to access and reproduce. So instead of breeding from the mare with good deep girth/leg ratio, for example, they may breed from her sibling who has inherited a different combination of genes from their parents and displays the leggier 'sports pony' look and so on. Soon, its harder to find offspring of those lines who are typey in the traditional way and because of the high esteem those forebears were held in, newer breeders start to believe/assume that the more recent descendents must be 'typey' because of the lovely ponies in their pedigree, not realising (caring, if it wins?) that their current generation doesn't necessarily look very much like the ponies of old...

The Peasants Are Revolting...

www.forestuprising.org.uk

forestuprising@live.co.uk

I remember back in the mid 1970's the ridden foresters were turned out and judged like show ponies. Those that won where often what would be now classed as sport or working huner pony type. The "rot" set in a fair while ago!!

I am amazed then that there are any ponies like Homey left then if the trend is for the more modern sportier types.

I did not go out to buy a NF I just was looking for a nice all rounder pony and the one I loved happened to be a NF so I am learning about them.

I guess if the NF enthusiasts can't decide what sort of NF is the correct type then there is little hope for the rest of us! The chunkier ones don't seem to be promoted so much as the sportier ones who look like would not survive long on the forest.

There are three NFs in Homey's herd at the livery where I keep him they have different bodies types but their faces are quite similar they have very kind looking eyes and quite wide foreheads. All three are very friendly and nice natured.

I gave up showing my chunky foresters years ago because they hardly ever got the recognition that everyone else seemed to think that they deserved. My one NF that was of finer type, and black which is always a bonus, used to do very well and regularly win. He has good conformation generally but with it comes a stupidly pretty head, hardly any bone and the 'daisy cutter' action, everything that I don't want to see in a NF pony!
I am absolutely aiming to breed good quality small ponies over here in France because they have completely lost the plot as far as the breed type is concerned here. All they look for is 148cm, jumping ability and fine limbs. A friend emailed me a picture of a NF pony they've been given on loan to showjump, daughter is a super little rider, vice champion of northern France this year, and I honestly couldn't have told you it was a forester. She asked me for my opinion and I didn't know what to say!
I know that Tina and I feel very similarly about the breed so I won't repeat everything that's already been said. I used to find the whole showing and being judged procedure very frustrating. But when your stallions/mares are forest bred, premium winners and running on the forest for the good and preservation of the breed, and regularly end up down the line and below inferior examples of the breed that are grossly overweight and don't even have a straight action you tend to lose faith a little (or completely, in my case!).

I have two foresters, one of each 'type' My mare is 8 years old out of Farriers Rambler, and is what is described as a good forester (from the books!) she has very good depth, superb amount of bone, and is what a forester should be like!!! BUT..on the other hand my other forester, a Gelding, is a couple of years younger, very fine, looks far more like a smaller thoroughbred, and acts like one too!! My Mare has given me basically NO problems, vet wise...(touch wood, she still will!!) Whereas my thoroughbred version of the breed, has had white line disease in his feet, is very difficult to keep weight on over the winter, needs lots of hard feed and hay. As much as I love him to bits and will never part with him, had I known that he would turn out like that when I purchased him as a 6 month old foal I don't think I would of brought him!!!

This is really interesting and i have to agree. I love the old fashioned NF type but they are few and far between. The old rule of a stone per hand would kill half of the sports pony type NF's. My boy is from a chunky stock and i wonder how he will turn out? He is only a yearling but i am hoping it is the older fashioned type that he grows into.

I have to agree Kelly, a hand a stone would put alot of pressure on some of the finer NF ponies. As above I have one of each, my gelding the finer one of the two, he was supposed to be for myself, Ok fair enough he has reached 14hh, I am only 5'6" and weigh 8 stone after a full breakfast!!, but he far prefers my 11 year old daughter riding him, when I get on him, I just have this feeling he is struggling sometimes!! (He was a late developer and wasn't broken until he was 4) but even so, I just don't feel comfortable riding him somedays. -How stupid is that!. Thing is he is brilliant at jumping and is super fast against the clock - my daughter loves him for that.
Whereas my 'traditional' mare is like a tank, she will go on all day, and do everything that is asked, but I feel I have outgrown her speed (or lack of it!!) So I am actually looking to get something a bit bigger and more go in it shortly!! So just goes to show there are pros and cons for each type, wish I could of combined both of mine together, may of got something inbetween the 2, with a bit of go in it, but with the more traditional look of the forester.

quote

I gave up showing my chunky foresters years ago because they hardly ever got the recognition that everyone else seemed to think that they deserved. My one NF that was of finer type, and black which is always a bonus, used to do very well and regularly win. He has good conformation generally but with it comes a stupidly pretty head, hardly any bone and the 'daisy cutter' action, everything that I don't want to see in a NF pony!
I am absolutely aiming to breed good quality small ponies over here in France because they have completely lost the plot as far as the breed type is concerned here. All they look for is 148cm, jumping ability and fine limbs. A friend emailed me a picture of a NF pony they've been given on loan to showjump, daughter is a super little rider, vice champion of northern France this year, and I honestly couldn't have told you it was a forester. She asked me for my opinion and I didn't know what to say!
I know that Tina and I feel very similarly about the breed so I won't repeat everything that's already been said. I used to find the whole showing and being judged procedure very frustrating. But when your stallions/mares are forest bred, premium winners and running on the forest for the good and preservation of the breed, and regularly end up down the line and below inferior examples of the breed that are grossly overweight and don't even have a straight action you tend to lose faith a little (or completely, in my case!).

so are you saying stud breds are not as good as the forest breds?

how would you describe this pony?

do he have the daisy cutter action?
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opinions are different i know

Well I took Homey to his first county show today and it was really interesting. We just did in hand and there were 21 entered.

I thought Homey looked lovely and smart and of course he behaved beautifully as he is so quiet he is no trouble.

We did not do very well as the judge preferred the hairies and the bigger foresters with legs up to their armpits and not as chunky as Homey so not our day. Homey either seems to come in the top three or the bottom three depending on if the judge likes a chunky pony or not.

Homey however had lots of attention from people who wanted to cuddle him and he did not mind that at all!

Even though he might not do so well as he is small and chunky - he was probably the smallest in class despite being 14h I am still going to take him out as I enjoy it and also it is nice for people to see that chunky foresters do exist! Also as he is so quiet he is no trouble at all.

I can describe him Rhi....











...... GORGEOUS!!!!

Rhi, of course I'm not saying that, your boy is lovely and a good example of the breed. I gave up doing showing regularly nearly 20 years ago, it just became very tiresome coming up against ponies that weren't the most wonderful examples of the breed but they were pretty and this seemed to count in their favour alot of the time. When I would ask judges why my ponies were placed where they were, I was regularly told that they were too small (13hh-13.3hh), too plain a head and generally had an action that was too workmanlike. These are the traits of the breed! Or at least they used to be, the goalposts seemed to move in the late 80's somewhat and alot of people felt the same way that I did at the time. When you look at the older (and I mean 1930-40's) pictures of NF ponies you wouldn't recognise alot of todays ponies as being the same breed. I'm not saying that progress shouldn't be allowed but I genuinely think it's a real shame to lose what is, in essence, what the breed 'is'.
ETA- I have both forest bred and stud bred ponies too so I'm not biased as to 'where' they're bred but just the preservation of the 'truer type' being accepted in the show ring for what they are.

i was told at one show this weekend my forest pony doesnt move as i asked why i was where i was i did tell him he was 2nd at his breed show less than a week ago.

It was just that kind of inconsistency that drove me mad Rhi. At one particular show in a mixed NF and Connie class, with my grey NF stallion that ran the forest, the judge told me that he was the best example of a connie she'd seen all season! He is very 'typey' and really doesn't look like a connie so, of course, I had to politely inform her that he was a NF. Good job I already had the rosette by then!

I took my NF yearling to a show sunday (his first show) one judge placed him 3rd out of 4 because he was too fine for a yearling and needed to chunk out, the next placed him 2nd in a bigger class as he was so mature and well grown for a yearling.

Erm ok?????

i think it all depends on the judge i was ask by a judge if chester was a exmoor!!!
i said yes a very big one now this was a well known judge so really i dont think there is much hope

OMG Sally Anne, that is awful! The judge that thought my boy was a connie is also a very well known judge but a judge thinking yours could possibly be an exmoor is shocking. I suppose Chester must have a lifetime height certificate that was signed when he was a yearling!! I won't go into that though as that's something else that I could rant about for days. When I would go in classes split at 13.2hh and under and my 13.2hh stallion would be one of the smallest in the ring, mmmmmmmmm!

A judge once asked me if my grey forester was a connie too!!

Judges nearly always mistake Homey for a welsh Section C or D in the mixed classes.