I think I knew whether my spouse "got it" almost from the beginning. My gut "knew" even if my head wasn't quite so sure. It was a visceral "knowing". It wasn't intellectual.
Most of the good books on affair recovery make an attempt to describe what to expect from unfaithful spouse is "getting it". My own feeling is that almost all unfaithful spouses (unless they are sociopathic) "get it" on some level. After an affair has ended, it seems to me that unfaithful spouses tend to spend at least a few months trying to convince themselves (and everyone else) that there is nothing to "get".
Here's one formal list that is pretty complete although it's also a little severe (not that there's anything wrong with a little severity after discovering a betrayal). It is from a post by jaj6786 five years ago on one of the honored ancestors of this site, Arrow in the Heart.
I was cheated upon in my last relationship, a 6-yr relationship that was co-residential for the last 3. After I discovered the cheating, my ex did just about everything that a truly penitent cheater must NEVER do. For the record, they are:
1) do NOT minimize or rationalize what you did or try to turn the tables on the person you've wronged. There will come a time when the two of you can assess mutual mistakes that led to the A, but now is NOT the time. You did it, now you take full responsibility. Anything less will be ruinous.
2) utterly and completely cut off all contact with the OP, and do so in a way that is as transparent as possible to your spouse. Your spouse will be very suspicious for a few months, and if you have any further contact of any sort at all, no matter how innocent in your mind, your spouse will discover it and that discovery will further devastate him/her, and probably kill any chance at reconciliation.
3) if you compounded the problem by telling a friend or friends that you were having the affair, and those friends implicitly conspired with you by not telling your spouse, you'll need to exclude those friends from your social sphere until such time, if ever, that your spouse can bear their company again. It is altogether likely that your spouse will have no use whatsoever for such "friends" ever again. If that's unpleasant for you, too bad--you did this, and that's part of the consequences.
4) if your work or academic program thrusts you into the OP's presence, you're in a real jam. If your spouse asks or implies that he/she would be much more comfortable if you'd not see the OP even in those circumstances, you're going to have to change employer and/or academic program. If that seems excessive, too bad--you did this, and that's part of the consequences.
5) now is NOT the time to insist upon the sanctity of your right to privacy. After all, you abused that privacy by sneaking around with the OP. If your spouse has questions about exactly what happened and where and how and how often, answer them honestly. He/she has a justifiable need to feel assured that you have no more secrets and are willing to come clean, and however uncomfortable that might be for you, you're going to have to step up and comply.
6) do NOT tell any more lies of any kind. Especially do NOT tell lies if/when your spouse confronts you about the A. Fess up and take your lumps. If you do lie, and the lies are found out, it will be vastly more difficult for your spouse to regain trust in you, and sometimes the chain of lies that you tell in attempting to conceal the A will do as much harm (it can't do more) than the A itself. ESPECIALLY do not employ false outrage or indignation at your spouse's suspicions or questions--that will be utterly ruinous once the A is discovered. He/she will feel that you tried not only to betray him/her but to make a fool of him after the fact.
The best policy, obviously, is not to get into this sort of horrible jam in the first place. But if you went ahead and did it, and you sincerely want a reconciliation, you're going to have to follow these rules unstintingly, at least for a while. That's just the way it is after you've betrayed the trust of someone who loves you, and if that's a tough gig, too bad--you did this to both of you. Period.
My gut tells me she is trying as best as she knows how. Six weeks after the discovery. There appears to be damage done by the A, and the behaviour following the A.
But my gut had told me she would never do such a thing. My gut failed me miserably, and I'm not sure whether to trust it or not.
State clearly what I need? I think I need to figure that out first. The changing jobs was a big thing, and she did that. Reading material herself and trying to figure out ways to help is also a big thing, and she's doing that.
I also wonder if there are unreasonable requests, if I can make unreasonable demands right now.
Never gone through this before, if I had, I'd know what to expect, and what to do (maybe). Never even took a class in college. You just aren't prepared for this.
"I also wonder if there are unreasonable requests, if I can make unreasonable demands right now. "
Actually in the book "After the Affair," it does state some things that you can request that are unreasonable somewhat, like putting the house in your name only (just an example:>) so if she does this again, it is all yours and stuff like that. Now that one may be a little drastic but it says if your spouse is really serious about reconciling and playing it straight from then on, they won't have a problem with some of them.
For my ex and I, I told him I wanted to finish my bachelor's and he complied and said he wouldn't complain (because he always complained about my schooling before that). We didn't make it far enough for me to finish quite yet but I'm still going even though we're apart.
I pay half the kids day care, buy groceries once a month. I pay for nothing else. Nothing, no insurance, not the house payment, nothing. My money is now virtually all my money.
Keep the house clean, do everything. I am too depressed, I feel like this isn't my home anymore but I won't live in a pig pen. Yes, we both work full time also.
She immediately quit school. Was getting close to graduation. Too bad.
She skip her business trips unless the entire family goes.
Passwords to everything, remote access to her work email and voicemail.
Delete all old email accounts.
No unaccounted for time...zero. Better not be in any spot where cell phone reception drops, I won't accept it. Find a way.
Completely bust out the other man to his wife, on the phone and in person.
Those were some of the big ones. I know they are harsh, but I need to know she is truly in it for me. The odd thing is, she has done/is doing all of these things and I still find myself unsure at times, but my gut tells me she must mean it to do all of this stuff. Am I crazy for still feeling unsure...why would she do all of these things and not mean it? Of course, I also worry that this will all stop and she will eventually fall back to her "old self" if I ever let off, but I'll deal with how to start letting her off the hook when I feel I am able.
Once again, am I crazy or must the be obvious that she has changed? This question has been burning in me.
I had been looking for these signs too, and my partner was being so "good" about satisfying my need to feel I was the only one in his life. He was behaving like I think a normal guy in a monogamous relationship should behave: respectful, loving, happy. (Nearly) all the suspicious activity stopped...at least the activities that were blatent: phone ringing at odd hours, excuses that didn't make sense, etc. But, my gut said something was still wrong.
A couple nights ago I asked him directly about names on his calendar and he suddenly had amnesia followed by a lie.
And he said something I think is very telling.
He said, "do you think for a minute, if I was fooling around, I would leave things out in the open?" "When would I have TIME to fool around?"
I said, "If the president of the United States had time to fool around, you certainly would have time." (He's retired...well, unemployed if truth is told IMHO). I didn't buy his lies and told him so. Our relationship ended the next night when I asked a direct question about the woman's name, and he hung up on me.
I bought a book yesterday (Finding Your Own North Star by Martha Beck), that is very helpful to me in this anger, grief mode I am in, and there is a quote that I think is very appropo, it brought it all together for me.
She says: The urge to find the real facts is destructive only to people or systems (friendships, relationships, family dynamics, political dynasites) that are based on lies.
I had to read this over a couple of times before I got it. In other words, my questioning should not do damage if there isn't anything to hide. I was asking respectfully, with a soft voice, giving him the benefit of any logical explanation. He would not answer me.
Beck continues: Moral: if something is scaring you, learn everything about it that you possibly can.
In the past I know I have been scared to directly question because of his rejection, anger, refusal to talk and my fear that he couldn't answer, or that the answer would be so painful to hear that I couldn't stand it. Also, somehow the blame always got thrown over to me for trying to wreck our relationship. To his credit there were many things we could discuss and resolve, more than with any other guy I know, but this issue, the fidelity issue, was always an elephant in the living room.
I have been doing a lot of crying today, which is therapeutic and necessary to get through this loss, and it comes in waves. When I feel strong I clean things in the garage and listen to Taj Mahal; when I feel sad I let myself take time off to cry again. Difficult work, this. Thanks for a place to write it out.
Judy
Edit for missed word
This message has been edited by newday52105 on Jul 9, 2005 5:28 PM
Judy - my experience was similar. Almost all suspicious activity stopped after d-day. Three years later, I discovered that my X's affair had continued for several months after d-day (I don't know how long) but that she had become much better at hiding her tracks. I was pretty "hypervigilant" at the time. I still can't figure out how she pulled it off.
OTOH, I know of several betrayed spouses who continued to feel insecure even when their unfaithful spouse had stopped all contact with the OP, answered all questions as honestly as possible, etc. Even an unfaithful spouse who is genuinely remorseful can only do so much. At some point, a betrayed spouse is left to deal with their own insecurities.
>>Also, somehow the blame always got thrown over to me for trying to wreck our relationship<<
For me, that was one of the most troubling aspects of my marriage after d-day. From what I've seen, almost all unfaithful spouses will try that gambit at some point. At times, it seemed to me that my X genuinely believed that our marriage would be back on solid ground if only I would just forget about her affair (that wasn't a "real" affair).
Quinn: Thank you for your examples, it's so easy to believe I am the one blowing things out of proportion.
"she had become much better at hiding her tracks".
Ya know, I think my guy has been playing a sick game with me, to test who is smarter. When I detected something he always squirmed out of it and then tried a different tactic to see if I could detect that. It was like Wheel of (Mis)Fortune. He often told me, "You are the smartest woman I have ever met." Hmmmm, here I thought he was giving me a compliment!!! In retrospect, that gets me to wondering how many years he played around with other women when he was married and his XW, who is VERY smart, a respected CPA, maybe never questioned him.
I can't imagine the agony you went through for YEARS. My god, my heart goes out to you, this is crazy stuff.
Well, he is free now to play around with whomever he wants...he just won't be playing around with me anymore.
Did I read that you were visiting in my home state of 10,000 lakes or is there another northern Twin Cities? If so, welcome!
Time to venture out to do some dancin' to Taj in the Garage...perhaps my humor is returning already...
>>Time to venture out to do some dancin' to Taj in the Garage ... perhaps my humor is returning already ...<<
There's never enough time for Taj in the Garage, I always say. Thanks for the welcome to THE Twin Cities. I guess I should apologize for bringing this Texas weather with me.
>>Ya know, I think my guy has been playing a sick game with me, to test who is smarter. When I detected something he always squirmed out of it and then tried a different tactic to see if I could detect that<<
I had the same feeling. Still do. I always knew my X was smart but until this affair bidness, I had no idea just how smart. Sometimes I felt like a mouse being toyed with by a cat and I wonder if "the game" wasn't the most appealing part of her affair.
>>Well, he is free now to play around with whomever he wants ... he just won't be playing around with me anymore<<
My sentiments exactly. She can have at it. However, whenever, wherever, and with whomever.
It isn't that they're SMART, Judy, it's that they're MANIPULATIVE and know how to take advantage of (what they perceive is) the "weakness" that is kindness or trust or devotion. Give an inch, they'll take a mile.
No contact (or minimal contact) is the only way with someone like that.
I was to leave on Thursday for a three week trip to the west coast. I felt very uncertain about it in the last couple of weeks, but packed anyway. I was going to drive out, go to a ten day writer's conference and drive back. Usually I LOVE to travel. Last week I had a routine physical and on Wednesday afternoon I received a letter that I needed additional xrays (mammogram). My mom had breast cancer three years ago and a mastectomy, so I was very concerned. (Should say everything turned out FINE, thank god, just some shadow). Told my partner about my anxiety. He said he had to work on his resume and when I asked him if that was more important than my health he got very angry and said he would go along. Of course that would mean I had to take care of him AND myself. I went alone (80 miles one way). I bought $100 worth of self-help books..glorious. Had a very mystical, visionary experience right at Barnes and Noble, which I am convinced cleansed the toxic relationship, albeit the shadows, out of my life.
My friends and family clustered around me like mother hens...gotta love em' to pieces (calls, emails, lunch). He, on the other hand, I believe, was with his OW the night before and would not be home or awake enough to go along. I never heard from him.
When I got home last evening there was a message on my home phone that he had been thinking of me all day....sure he had...so much that he didn't call my cell phone, which I had with, to check. That was quite a 2 x 4 for me.
Here is the truth of the matter as I see it. My breasts were good enough when they were good enough, but any problem and he was out of there. Who on earth needs that kind of cruel behavior? Not me, not anyone. I write this because it is hard to admit that someone we love would treat us this way. Writing it down makes it very real, even though it makes me very sad.
Yep, the "game" was probably the most amusing thing of my ex's affair as well. Or shall I say games for him?
I don't think he looks nearly as happy as he did before when he was hiding, lying, manipulating. He even did it the other day, which is pitiful. He asked to borrow something little from my house and I gave it to him because he was flying down to Miami for a vacation. I almost never ask him any why's anymore like he does me, but I was really curious why he needed a splitter for headphones. I only wondered if he was going to use it for the airplane or what? I knew he was going with a "friend" b/c he said he and a guy friend were going, to the couple that was visiting me last week when he was here a few hours. Anyway, when I asked what on earth would you need "these" for, he just got out of it any way he could and wouldn't answer. When he brings them back, I think I'll say, "you know I've been dating someone for over a year now, so do you really think I care at all if you are dating someone? Hell, you kept me jealous with your affair's when we were married, but I could CARE LESS now who you are dating or how many women you are with." I would also be tempted to tell him that I have absolutely NO jealousy over him dating whatsoever. You see, this it now HIS turn to be jealous, I've already been through hell and back when we were married but I am way over it already. He just doesn't get it, he thinks I would still be jealous and I honestly have absolutely NO jealousy over it. Actually maybe the reason he still just hides is b/c he thinks he'll still gain control over me. I won't let him.
Tell me? Why does he still lie about these things?
"Judy - my experience was similar. Almost all suspicious activity stopped after d-day. Three years later, I discovered that my X's affair had continued for several months after d-day (I don't know how long) but that she had become much better at hiding her tracks. I was pretty "hypervigilant" at the time. I still can't figure out how she pulled it off."
Mine did the same thing as well. Not actually physical contact but he spoke to her for a few months afterward. Q, I'm not sure how he even did that either, makes you realize that where there is a will, there is a way...
Ian, in our case a lot of the signs of remorse were subtle -just things that he said...sometimes more obvious like him crying over my pain...
Example - Last night we saw something on cheating on tv...He started talking about how I was the one who had integrity in our relationship...how he is ashamed of how sleazy he was..He said his goal in life is to have the same integrity that I have...Little things like that which shows he respects me and fidelity help a lot...He talks a lot about his guilt about time he spent away from the kids, damage he cause me, and time he wasted on stupidity...
Also, he is very quick now to take FULL responsibility for the A...even though I am willing to concede that our marriage was not perfect..he is now quick to jump in and say that was no excuse for what he did...that I never deserved that...Before he "Got it", he would also focus on the small problems in the marriage and try to justify it (his GREAT counselor told him "Every marriage has these problems, but YOU chose to handle them by cheating" - and H really heard that and took full responsibility)...
He just has a general attitude of acknowledging the enormity and wrongness (if that is a word) of what he did, and doing all he can to fix it...in our case that included counseling, psychiatry, leaving his job and moving...as well as hours and hours and hours of talking about every aspect of it...
This is sort of a threadjack, but it is illustrative of the non-remorseful spouse who just never gets it.
Charlie wrote
>>Actually maybe the reason he still just hides is b/c he thinks he'll still gain control over me. I won't let him.
Tell me? Why does he still lie about these things?<<
My answer:
If he leaves you wondering, you're still giving him some control and some room to manipulate you. That last step to "letting go" is the hardest. When you go from the somewhat frustrated "tell me, why?" to the merely bemused "there he goes again", you've acknowledged that he is who and what he is and that you may never understand.
Psychoanalyzing my ex was the last thing I gave up. I don't care what she does OR WHY, as long as it doesn't hurt my son. I am long since done figuring out her motivations for anything.
I agree completely with you on this. If my thoughts are on the X for even a minute I could find myself going to the "why is he such a jerk?" monologue. Poor me, poor guy. UGH.
I will not let him in my thoughts any more. When I go there I just turn up the music and dance and clean more dirt off the garage floor. Yesterday I was really sad, processed that and today I am a little mad (don't *&&& with me kind). Feels strong and independent.
I could give a rip what he is doing or how many women he has lined up. He was toxic, I cleansed myself of him, was given a clean bill of health because of it, and now "I get about it," as we say up north. Am I going to compromise my health for him again? No way. Life has much more joy to offer and I am getting on with it.
"Psychoanalyzing my ex was the last thing I gave up. I don't care what she does OR WHY, as long as it doesn't hurt my son. I am long since done figuring out her motivations for anything."
See that's the funny thing. I haven't been asking him anything for a very long time but b/c he borrowed something of mine, I guess I wanted to know why he needed it. This was a lesson learned and it won't happen again. I didn't have a problem with him using it but I didn't understand why he would need it.
He has asked me nearly every time he wants to know something or if I say something and then he wants to clarify. An example would be when BF, his daughter and my kids and I all went to FL for vacation. My ex knew I was going many months before b/c I needed part of his weekend with the kids to do it. Anyway, a couple weeks before we went he asked me why I couldn't change our vacation days slightly b/c there was a conflict in the vacation schedule and something my son wanted to do. Anyway, I told him that BF couldn't change his work schedule and he asked if he and his daughter were going with us. I told him yes. I don't have any problem telling him BF will be with me and I don't have any problem being honest. LOL
Your first reply to this post, where you quoted someone from the arrow days was just perfect. My exact sentiments. But, my question is, we know what the 'remorseful' spouse should NOT do, but what DO they do? My H is still coming up with this 4 years on: I tell him I need him to show remorse, he asks how, and I tell him the things he does which don't show remorse. Like losing his temper. I say he has to be patient, kind and understanding, but he asks for specifics and I can't give them, I only know that if I was genuinely sorry for something I'd done to someone, I'd make it plain. Any more gems of wisdom? PLEASE?!!! xxxxxxx
>>we know what the 'remorseful' spouse should NOT do, but what DO they do?<<
I guess it's easier to come up with a list of "should NOTs" than "shoulds".
Would it be glib to fall back on the "everybody is different" answer? In my case, I gave alot of thought to what I wanted from my spouse after discovering her affair. By "alot" I mean a couple of years or so (yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm slow but I'm learning to deal with it, okay?). It also took several readings of the book "When Your Lover is a Liar". At that point, my (then) wife was still insisting that her affair was not an affair because there had been no sex. I knew that wasn't the truth.
Here was my short list:
1) quit drinking and get into a recovery program 2) individual therapy 3) tell me the truth about the affair.
Those were the things that I would have found most reassuring at the time. Any one of them was a deal breaker for me.
But that's not really what I hear you talking about. You've already decided to stay but would like some reassurance from your spouse that you have made the right decision.
I guess I think that you need to give some thought to the kinds of things that you would find most reassuring, Sandy. It's not at all unfair (in my mind) to ask for reassurance after an affair. I can imagine that it can be tough for your h if you can't be more specific about what you need from him at this point.
One other thing - talking is great, talking is important, talk can be reassuring. But talking is only one way of communicating. My guess is that you know your h well enough to know whether he is genuinely sorry for what he happened. Some people find it easy to apologize. For others it is extremely difficult. There are many ways to say "I'm sorry".
Does that help? Yes, he doesn't show remorse!! I want kind, gentle, understanding, answers, grief for the marriage he threw away, etc.
What I get is not being allowed to talk about it or we end up arguing. He minimalises it 'I made a mistake' and 'Loads of people have affairs, why do you have to keep going on about it' etc. So I did the only thing I could think of, cut off the sex (not the organ!!) and shut up about it. I'm a peacekeeping force!!
And as I've said before, and hate myself for it, I will probably only get enough courage to do something about my life when my Mum dies, and I hate myself for that, but I hate him more....
>>and I hate myself for that, but I hate him more ....<<
That's what I thought - at this point you have a marriage of convenience - it makes sense for you to remain with your h mainly because of your mother. I get that part.
I also get that your h is not sorry for his affair. But if you're sure he's not sorry, then what's the point of spending time trying to figure out specific ways that he can show remorse?
Sorry if that was too blunt, Sandy. All of this stuff is much easier to figure out than it is to put into practice. It took me years to figure out that I could no longer tolerate my marriage. By that point, it wouldn't have mattered if my (then) wife had stood on her head while reciting The Charge of the Light Brigade ("ours not to reason why ... into the valley of death rode the 600" ... etc., etc.). By that point, the problem was mine, not hers.
If it's any help ... I don't beat myself up too much for staying too long or taking too long to figure things out. I did what I did when I did it. C'est la vie. C'est le guerre. (That last bit was for Kats benefit).
Not sure what language that is, but if its Spanish, I haven't got that far yet!
No Quinn, not too blunt, I can handle blunt. I just seem to take ages to make decisions, but in the meantime, I just kind of keep hoping he'll get sorry, but I also know he won't, I don't think. Every friend I had at the time of his affair said they'd tell him to take a hike, when he said our marriage was crap, he didn't love me anymore, he was never coming back etc. But not me. I did nothing, just sat here hoping. I think there's a word for people like me : stupid!
xxxx
That is just one excuse/statement many betrayers say to eleviate their guilt once again. Because I don't love you, it is okay to do what I'm doing. Rationalization.
My ex said "I only love you as a 15 year marriage and not like a wife should be loved" and my BF's ex after he caught her in her A said "I never really loved you" and told him she wished he had just gone out and found someone else (while he was married), I guess she wanted off the hook.
Makes me wonder if they realize how damaging those statement are??? Frankly, I didn't fall for it, esp. when he showed some jealousy when he found out I had started dating someone seriously
You're probably right. I remember having the distinct feeling that he was trying to make me hate him so I'd end the marriage (to save him the job) - he just didn't bank on the fact that I'm a stayer! Not very good on the short sprints but can outbeat anyone where long distance stamina is required!!
Sandy wrote >>I just seem to take ages to make decisions<<
Well, me too. I found it very, very tough to decide to give up on my marriage. Being slow to give up on marriage isn't my worst fault. Not by a long shot.
Kat wrote >>A la guerre comme a la guerre"...<<
War is feminine, in French? I should have known.
Sandy wrote >>I think there's a word for people like me : stupid!<<
No. Not stupid. I don't think so, anyway. If I had to list the top ten lessons that I learned from this experience, one of them would surely be that life is much harder to figure out when you're in the thick of it. It's much too easy when you're looking at someone else's life.
Charlie wrote >>My ex said "I only love you as a 15 year marriage and not like a wife should be loved" and my BF's ex after he caught her in her A said "I never really loved you"<<
Go ahead and call me sick but statements like those are beginning to sound funny to me. I also heard "I never really loved you" and also "you never really loved me". After 20+ years and two children, I came to find out that we had always had bad marriage.
Perhaps the funniest one was "I only pretended to agree with your religous beliefs". No kidding? For 30 years, she faked her religious beliefs? Why? What would have happened if our religious views hadn't been the identical? The heavens would have parted and we would have been struck dead?
Talking of faking religious beliefs, I just made a decision! If I ever pluck up the courage to leave him or chuck him out, I'm gonna tell him I faked orgasms all these years. I didn't, but what the hell!!
I have this teeny weeny sneaking suspicion that you trying to say you faked orgasms might not be believed. Now don't just take my word for it, I am very often wrong!!
I've just re-read the whole of this from start to finish and the thing that comes into my head is that AFFAIRS STINK.
That's it, really, end of story. xxxxxxx
Your pretty funny and I admire your sense of humor over everything you've dealt with. You seem as if you are pretty much saying you know that your relationship will not last and it is a relief to see that you can still see some humor in it all. I think that means you will get through whatever happens in the future quite well.
Your spouse said, "do you think for a minute, if I was fooling around, I would leave things out in the open?" "When would I have TIME to fool around?"
Typical of them. Flip it around so it looks like if you question him more its you that is crazy. Typical reverse move on the part of a betrayer. I hope you see it for what it is.
The alarms sure went off when X said that. He wasn't smart enough to hide things, and was trying to deflect his dishonesty, just as you say.
One time I said, "well, I know you pretty well" in reply to a conversation about food or clothing....and his reply was..."You don't know me at all." Wow, that startled me then and still gives me shivers now; now I know some of why he said that.
People say they’re sorry,
And they mean it from the heart,
But to understand your heartache,
They couldn’t even start,
To have a loss like you have had,
Is too much to understand,
We see it and we feel for you,
But it’s only secondhand,
You’re the ones who are suffering,
And we’re the ones who care,
But if there’s anything we can do,
Call us, we’ll be there.
