Well I am glad to have found this site as it my start to help me understand my emotional roller coaster. My W and I had been together for seven years. As of June 30th I found out she was in an A for about 18mos. It did however end about 13 months ago. Well to say I was shocked was an understatement. I have been a wreck ever since. We have decided to try and work it out. My question is what type of emotions should I expect. WE are seeking individual counselling as well as together. The tough part is I seem to want to talk about it daily and I feel she is trying to sweep it under the rug. Any advice?
P
The family of Natalee Holloway (the young woman who went missing in Aruba a couple of months ago) are "obsessed" with finding out the details of what happened to her. They probably won't be able to rest until they have some answers. People who are in car wrecks and plane crashes are often the same way. They go over and over the details until they are able to "let it go".
FWIW, your wife seems normal to me too. I imagine she desparately wants the whole episode just to go away and never think of it again.
It's tough when two people are at opposite ends of an emotional spectrum.
You both sound normal to me. Rush out and buy the book "After the Affair" by Janis Abrams Spring. It does a great job of walking you thru many of the "normal" responses to learning of an affair.
There are lots of other good books recommended elsewhere in this forum.
Good luck to you both. At least you are committed to the same goal - rebuilding your relationship. -Rob
Your reactions are normal for someone who has faced the trauma of discovering the infidelity of a spouse..It is also common for the FWS to want to avoid the pain of dealing with it...
These issues are addressed in a lot of the infidelity literature...Besides "After the Affair", I would also recommend "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass...when you finish those two, we've got more to suggest. LOL! Seriously, early in recovery it was suggested to me that I read all that I could about affairs, and I took that suggestion...I can't tell you how much it helped me...
Also posting and reading here will help a lot....Vent, vent, vent! It really helps to talk to people that have been there...and also to read about what has helped other people get through the nightmare!!
I too read. Knowledge is power. It helped me to understand my WS's feelings and how of this could happen, even in a good marriage. It also helped me to understand my own feelings.
>>I too read. Knowledge is power. It helped me to understand my WS's feelings<<
The only real knowledge of our spouse's feelings comes from asking them and getting answers.
Refusal to talk or refusal to answer is an answer in itself, and it is not a good answer. Substituting words from these forums or from books on infidelity is a mistake, in my opinion. Psychoanalyzing a spouse based on "portraits" in books is another mistake, in my opinion.
Bottom line, if a spouse won't talk about "it" (and take steps to rectify things) when you need them, it's probably a fatal indication for the marriage. It's certainly a bad indicator of "emotional openness and attachment".
Chris said <<Refusal to talk or refusal to answer is an answer in itself, and it is not a good answer. Substituting words from these forums or from books on infidelity is a mistake, in my opinion. Psychoanalyzing a spouse based on "portraits" in books is another mistake, in my opinion.>>
<<Substituting words from these forums or from books on infidelity is a mistake, in my opinion. Psychoanalyzing a spouse based on "portraits" in books is another mistake, in my opinion.>>
Nothing can substitute for a good ol' heart2heart with a wayward partner. Books and boards sometimes are all you have. Betrayed partner's often have a powerful need to understand what happened before and during the affair. That "need to know" doesn't just vanish if a wayward spouse refuses to talk or continues to lie whenever she does talk.
Also, wayward spouses can be often just as clueless about the "why" question as betrayed spouses. Wayward spouses often seem to need to work long and hard to sort through the rationalizations and begin to understand what really happened. Books and boards can help with that too.
By their very nature, books have to be general. They may or may not tell you something about your own specific situtation. At best, they can only present a range of options. You have to decide for yourself what fits and what doesn't. But then, you often have to make a similar decision even if you talk to your wayward spouse.
Books and boards have helped me to understand my X's feelings. In general (and by that I mean it doesn't apply to everyone in every situation) I tend to like more information more than less information.
Well just like everything in life, there are different healing methods for different people. I think to know more details, would be not in my best interest. I think the why, so it will not happen again it the right direction. I am the one who has bought the literature, and I am the one on the message boards, yet she says she is suffering inside. I know she feels guilty and what conversations we have had she ended up in hysterical tears. I am not up to continuing to fuel her guilt, and not throw it in her face. I would like her to read " After the Affair", and she said she will. I just see no movement on her part except trying to normalilze our lives. WE do have a joint counsellor meeting on Tuesday. I hate bringing out things in front of the therapist before talking to her, BUT if she hates discussing it, it creates quite a daichotomi.
P
It occurs to me that I have never seen the word 'daichotomi' written in front of me. I have heard it and can use it in a sentence, but I have never actually seen it.
These message boards are emotion driven. We often say things that come from our experiences and that come from our own shattered hearts. The sharing of experiences is therapeutic and we all are in different stages. Sometimes we all have learned things along our way that can help those who just join us, but not always do they apply to the specific person we are responding too.
But as far as some of the better books go written by those who have much experiences in dealing with the situation, sure they can be helpful for understanding. There are a lot of factors that go into this situation in which we find ourselves, but if you read and really look at your own situation you will agree that there are only a handful of types of affairs. These books won't teach you exactly how to reconnect which you have to explore together on your own with help from MC, but each type of affair comes about through specific causes and each have specific truths about what needs to be done to overcome the obstacles presented by each. All people are different, but if you break it down most affairs aren't.
>>These message boards are emotion driven. We often say things that come from our experiences and that come from our own shattered hearts.<<
Some people are "emotion-driven". Some people are "thought-driven". Both kinds of people read and post here. The boards reflect both. The boards are not necessarily "emotion-driven".
Q, I did not mean to imply that books and boards would be no help in understanding one's spouse or affairs in general.
I meant to say only that books and boards are a poor substitute for direct input from one's spouse.
It took me five years and a direct therapist to understand that "Chris, your wife just doesn't want to have much of a relationship with you". I read and posted on this board's predecessors. I read books. I read websites. I saw counselors. I was trying to UNDERSTAND what was happening to me in the absence of honesty and openness from my then-wife.
The FACT is, nothing will substitute in a marriage for honesty and openness. If you don't get it, what kind of marriage will you ever have?
P, one difficult suggestion is...listen more than you talk, and listen non-defensively (and non-attackingly).
Cory has addressed this previously much better than I can, but the gist of it is, if you make it easy to talk, they'll be more likely to talk. If you make 'em pay everytime you hear something you don't like, they'll clam up.
I said in my post that I read the books to understand my WS's feelings and how A's happen. That doesnt mean that he didnt tell me his feelings or how his A occured. How would I know what he was feeling if he didnt tell me or how it happened? I was saying the books helped me to understand them. That's all. Books are not a replacement for talking to your WS but it can enhance healing and understanding, and give you tools to deal with the A. In order to deal with the things my H was saying I needed to understand where he was coming from. Since I have never cheated I had no idea how to handle or deal with the info I was getting from him, but the books helped.
The books also helped me to feel that I was "normal". Many books go into what the BS is feeling and it lets you know that what you are feeling is what most BS's feel. I have no idea how a simple response as to read a book for knowledge could get so misunderstood.
Healing Wishes,
Carol~
This message has been edited by pizzalady on Aug 11, 2005 9:41 PM
Shortly after dday and a frantic search to find a recommended MC and have him see us right away, we started reading After the Affair.
We didn't just read it invidually, we read it aloud together, and we stopped to comment along the way on how we thought things that came up did or did not relect our situations. The created a lot of talking and much understanding on both our parts.
While I can say this did help understanding, I don't know if it changed much of anything as my WS still decided she wanted to continue the affair after a 5-week "hold" on the relationship while we started MC. We still talk a lot about the A and are still both searching for more answers. But she is still continuing her relationship with the OM.
My point is that to read the books TOGETHER can really prompt discussion and understanding if your spouse is willing.
-Rob
P, that IS all you are going to want to talk about for a long while....(LOL...The way I finally convinced H that this was normal was to show him that the books all said it was normal for the BS to need talk, answers, and reasaurance)
Some people suggest putting limits on it after a while, like only talking about it at certain times of the day...I was a complete mess and could not do that...I was just like a walking open would and talked about it whenever I needed to...
I will say though that a good way to balance it is to make sure you try to do some fun things when you can so it's not just ALL affair all the time....
<<I will say though that a good way to balance it is to make sure you try to do some fun things when you can so it's not just ALL affair all the time....>>
My IC also said this. It's ok to talk about the A for as long as the BS feels necessary, even though the WS may be uncomfortable with it. It is part of healing for both of you. My IC also suggested we do fun things as a couple and as a family. When doing those fun things, refrain from talking about the A if possible. Sometimes it is hard when you have triggers but you do the best that you can. This is really hard to do at first but in time it will get better.
I figured what Chris meant was you can talk to 99 WS and them all say the same thing or read 99 books about what a WS was feeling. Unless you hear it from your spouse (and I don't mean blame shifting) or maybe better yet a trained professional... your spouse might be that 1 in 100 where all the cliches don't fit. I never took from what Chris said that books are bad. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris.
But using those same books/boards to diagnose a WS with no input from an WS or professional might not be such a smart move. "Your spouse feels guilty, that's why they aren't talking." How the hell does anyone know that? Maybe its something as simple as they just don't want too. Perhaps they feel guilty, who knows? If you aren't getting any answers then that is the question to ask. "Why won't you answer my questions?" If they refuse to answer that...
Chris was right about something else too: silence from a WS speaks volumes.
WS has told me, to discuss it would only hurt me more. Yet I have finally convinced her that we need to understand the Whys, I dont need sordid details. I need to understand if I was doing something to contribute to this, how can I ever correct it. I know our relationship can never be the same. It can only progress or end. Does anyone feel that knowing the why's will be a progressive step or a digressive step?
P
That is the question every BS asks. Why? Is there any answer to make the BS say "OH Yeah, that's why you betrayed me"? I doubt it.
This might be one of those times to follow Chris's advice since she is starting to open up.. Listen but don't take responsibility for her choices.
If you DO have something to say...might be good to ask a few "why"s or "what" questions of your own.
If she does try to shift blame what exactly DOES she take responsibility for?
She needs to know if she wants YOU back she better bust her butt to do it. You are doing her the favor by considering reconcilation, not the other way around.
>>She needs to know if she wants YOU back she better bust her butt to do it. You are doing her the favor by considering reconcilation, not the other way around.<<
That was one of my biggest mistakes when I was trying to reconcile. I could have been much more clear that I would give her the opportunity to regain my trust but that there would be limits to my patience and understanding.
There are many different kinds of imbalances in a marriage that develop during an affair. I had the distinct impression that my X believed that she was "all that and a bag of chips. I was the opposite. I felt less than worthless. It was very tough for me to be clear that she better bust her butt (and not the other way around) if she wanted me back. As it turned out, I did alot more butt busting than she did. I knew that I wanted our marriage to work. She wasn't sure. Not at all sure. I thought I could do the work for both of us. I was dead wrong about that too.
I did the same thing Quinn. Just like I'm betting so did most BS's. Hence what is good about having forums like this(especially this one) with all the years of experience.
Tex
This message has been edited by TexMac64 on Aug 12, 2005 6:38 PM
>>Hence what is good about having forums like this(especially this one) with all the years of experience<<
When I first started posting on BAN, there weren't very many people around who were more than a year or two past d-day (Kat was an exception). I'm not big on the idea of a betrayed spouse "pretending" that s/he is fine (when s/he isn't) and isn't too concerned about the marriage (when s/he is). But I think the books are right when they say "focus on yourself". Number one priority has got to be personal recovery. The should be marriage a distant second. Unfortunately, like most of life's profound truths, it's much easier to say than to do.
As Q can testify, I was writing much that same thing (focus on [your name here]) for YEARS before I truly managed to heal myself, even before I truly understood what it MEANT to "focus on Chris".
Like Q, I did the butt-busting. (I bought the "affairs are a symptom of a troubled marriage" line wholesale.)
They aren't. Period, end of story.
Affairs are a symptom of a troubled SPOUSE. As Cory is fond of writing, "an affair is a lousy way to meet the emotional needs of a partner".
Chris.
ps. I'll try one more time on the whole "book" thing.
I believe the ONLY way to "understand the feelings" of a spouse is to ask him or her to explain, and to listen to the answers. A book doesn't know your spouse. You do. A book can't explain your spouse, but your spouse can.
There is always the danger (temptation) of "see, I told you so" when one finds a passage in a book that supports one's own interpretation of one's spouse's behavior. Very dangerous ground. (Been there.)
Tex, I don't think ANY book is ever right 99 times out of 100. As Rob suggested, if both partners read the same book and discuss it, that can be a way to open good discussions. Believe me, I've never burned or thrown away a book...I'm a Word Person. I frequently recommend books in this space. But accepting something other than Gospel as gospel, well, that's risky bidness.
there are two kinds of whys though...there are the surface-level "you didn't pay enough attention to me" that you may get in the beginning...Then there are the real "whys" of what was going on deep inside the WS at the time of the A..way deeper stuff...like, "why did they need attention so badly that they would risk their marriage and family to get more of it, usually from someone who is not the equal of the spouse?" This is the stuff it may take your wife a while to get down to because this is the painful stuff for them..It is easy for them to point the finger at you or the marriage...and in some cases there were weaknesses in the marriage...but in the end, the WS is the one who decided to cheat instead of workin gon the issues...
My H did not get into the deeper whys until he started IC...
As some of the others said, don't feel too badly if the early reasons she gives you are more focused on problems in the marriage or with you...Listen to what she says,if there is anything you cando to improve these areas, do it...but keep in mind that the real issues are more about her...
As my husband's IC said to him "Every marriage has
problems...YOU chose to deal with them by cheating."
And most of the experts say that there is a much greater chance of a repeat infidelity if the reasns why have not been identified and worked through....so for that reason, the "whys" are extremely important to understand....
You are perfectly normal my friend,all your emotions (and there are many I know) are natural. There is no magic wand,Im still suffering now six months after I found out about my wifes eight monther with a good friend of mine. I have to say something about the counselling we had together,In the UK its called 'relate' and you could visit them for a year but if your problems dont fall into their narrow scope (ours didnt) they really cant help, they just help to vent and clear the air and at £40 a time we had to stop. My advice is do all you can and get her to be honest,if she isnt going to be she may as well say so at the start. You are most certainly normal. Keep posting.
'One cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger'
Well it seems some people were right, we had a very in depth conversation, and I had a lot of you were not there at times, and the like, but still we did not get her reason for the why's. It was a cordial conversation and she wants the relationship to continue as do I. Yet until we get to the real why's, I have a hard time with it. I would even take you know I was just horny, something to get my head around if that makes sense to all you experienced people.
Yes, I felt the same, that I needed to hear a reason. Finally, when he knew I was never going to speak to him again, he began to talk. Keep in mind we were not married, just S.O. for a little over a year, and he says he only had two Internet connections he made when I broke up with him, which somehow continued when we got back together. He said his biggest fear was rejection from me so he wanted a "safety net" (my words). He was always certain I would leave him and I did, on several occasions, when he would not communicate with me. In our subsequent conversations, after my discoveries, I did not let him wiggle out of anything, and I think for the first time, perhaps, he was being honest with himself and with me. I only had one rule, that if he wanted a relationship with me it had to be based on honesty and openness. He admitted he lied...it was such a relief to hear that from him after thinking I was going crazy. I tried to get past my anger and hurt to really listen to what he had to say. However, whenever he slipped into tossing the blame on me..."you were always mad at me" kind of stuff, I stopped him in his tracks, without being all pissed off about it. We had hours and hours and hours of conversations before I decided I would try rebuild our relationship. I have not even written about it until now because I have been waiting to see if his old habits would return. They haven't. The other part of it is that I knew I had to change some things about how I communicated too. We agreed we had to trust each other, period, if we were to continue. He has big trust issues with me as well, which, in my opinion, are unfounded, but who is to say how another person feels? It's his insecurity showing up for whatever reasons. I certainly have been monogamous since I met him and I believe he has too, but our issues stemmed from connections to others (through travel, Internet, etc.)
What we work on now are our triggers...and being honest about them, even joking about them to each other. When I get fearful (my abandonment issues rearing their ugly heads) I try to turn my mind around before I confront him with something that is an overreaction. I can be pretty dramatic!!! When he is withdrawn I try to let him feel safe to talk. He is a very shy guy so talking about feelings is new for him. I find if I ask him to think about something we can discuss it later, but if I just spring something on him he goes right into his cave. Then that triggers my abandonment, etc. etc. Nasty circus, this.
I still have days that are wobbly, but then I try not project that on him, remembering his biggest fear is rejection, which, if I am distant because of a problem I am having unrelated to him, he might interpret as the beginning of me saying good-bye and react by withdrawing from me. So now I just tell him how I am processing things and he loves that. I had a down day yesterday and this morning on the phone he asked what he could do to help me feel more up. Just asking was important to me and I told him that.
When you mentioned being normal, it struck a chord with me, because it seems we have some idea that the norm is June Cleaver, just smiling away the day. I think the norm is doing what people are doing who post here...trying their damndest to make love work, and that takes on a million different faces.
You are right we all struggle to feel normal, and what is that. Is it when the pain stops, the imagination stops hitting us with images we do not want to see. Or is it when we feel at peace with our morals and the way we live our lives. I struggle with this so often, I think I am turning myself into an obsessive compulsive. ( over here bartender I will have another Ritalin, no make it a double, with a Paxil chaser ). Thanks to all that have responded today was better than yesterday, and that my friends is a positive step.
<<You are right we all struggle to feel normal, and what is that. Is it when the pain stops, the imagination stops hitting us with images we do not want to see. Or is it when we feel at peace with our morals and the way we live our lives.>>
I can tell you that I feel a lot more normal than I did, though still not the same as I was....The pain has gradualy declined...
It just takes time...and the more cooperative the FWS is, the better....
I was thinking a little more about the "why"...Sometimes it really does take them a while to figure that out themselves, especially the deeper "whys"....she may not really know yet herself....It took my H several months and counseling to figure it out...
Hang in there....Little by little it gets better...
"That was one of my biggest mistakes when I was trying to reconcile. I could have been much more clear that I would give her the opportunity to regain my trust but that there would be limits to my patience and understanding"
Q and Tex
See the funny thing is that I did make it completely clear to my H that he was the one that had to do lots of work because I had kicked him out of the house after I found out of his A. In order for him to come back, I made a list of about 7 things that he and/or I needed do in order to make our marriage work. He agreed to all of them. Some of those things included me finishing another degree so if he ever did it again, I could support myself and kids, others were way less drinking on his part when away from me, checking in with me when he was away for the night, no more lying etc. Anyway, he did the checking in begrudgingly and still screwed up on the other things regardless of my feelings.
My point to all of this is that it didn't matter for me that I put the pressure on him, he still did exactly what HE wanted to do anyway. He had me fooled for a little over a year though.
I guess your not standing your ground as much may have
lengthened the time frame of the supposed reconciliation, perhaps, but I'm willing to bet that the way it turned out would have been the same regardless of your standing your ground. Maybe my progression toward separation happened a little quicker b/c I wasn't going to let him keep doing these things to me and put my foot down hard.
I guess the real reason I put my foot down heavier was b/c he had an addiction for a few years and I had already had my fill of anger over what he was doing to me. Maybe I didn't do it quickly after all since I had dealt with some of his issues for a few years?
Charlie
This message has been edited by charlie288 on Aug 19, 2005 10:35 PM
My w wasn't saying much so I guess it was my way of finding out "the details" on my own.