So I figured it was time to start a new thread. My old one took a turn. Not for the worse...just for the different. That's OK, I noticed it had too many replies anyway...more than any other. Must've struck a chord or something.....

So, I can't deny that I'm living up to the title of this thread. Seems to be the best way that I know how to cope with the pain. One big glass of wine with dinner...a Limoncello for an appertif, and two double martinis have me in a state of almost-close-to-a-feeling-like-phony-happiness. My apologies for any misspellings or grammatical errors, but I'm sure you'll understand....my friends.

I have to tell you that I've been a loyal employee of the company for which I work for close to 15 years (unofficially....10 years officially), and I've hit a wall. I went back to work today - in order to get some routine back in my life....some order so that I can keep my mind busy and not obsess on the devastation that has resulted from my W's A.

You know...the funny thing is...I don't have a hobby....nothing that really holds my interest other than my family outside of my job. I used to work late every night...but never on weekends so I could spend time with my family (my father was a golfer and I never saw him, so I vowed never to do that to my kids).

I had a coworker tell me once that my hobby IS my job. I couldn't dispute that, because....well.....I LOVED my job, more than anything except my family. I took so much pride in what I did, because it touches thousands of lives daily. DAILY!!! How many people can say that what they do affects peoples' lives in a positive manner on a daily basis? I was truly blessed. I do something professionally that - hundreds of people have told me that - anybody would be envious of what I do. I won't tell you exactly what it is...but it's in the Entertainment field, and it's REALLY cool and creative, and it pays a lot of money, and it makes OTHER people happy EVERY day.....the PERFECT job. So, it WAS my hobby.....the third love of my life after my wife and kids....the third thing in my life that made me truly, truly happy. I didn't ever play golf or obsess over the house, or ride a Harley, or work on my cars, or go to strip bars, or play poker with the boys. I was SO frickin' happy. My life outside my life was my work. My life was practically perfect for a 44 year old man. I was at the peak of my career and the apex of my personal life with my loving wife and two fantastic children.

So, I go to work today for the first time since I took off three weeks ago when my father died. I come back to - and I know this was happening over the last 6-10 months - a company full of unhappy, depressed, angry people. The company has taken a turn for the worse. They've gone over to the dark side of keeping shareholders happy and living to the bottom line...foresaking quality, the reason that made them great, and the intangible quality of making the public happier than they would be if we'd have replaced that quality for crap. But it's only crap that we provide now, as was evidenced by the horrible project I just came off of. In other words, the company that I fell in love with has turned it's back on the qualities that I fell in love with....the company that made me so happy for allowing me to be a part of it. I knew this was happening. It's just such a horrible blow to realize it today, after all I've been through in the past three weeks. In the last year, I've now lost four of the six greatest loves of my life...my mother, my father, my wife, and my job. My children - my greatest achievement - are really the only things I have left to love and be proud of.

It's like I can't catch a break. I come home from a project that I hated and had no pride in for the first time in my entire professional career, to my father dying 6 days after I get home (without getting a chance to see him one last time), to finding out my wife has been having an affair for the previous year I find out three days after my father dies) while I was busting my ass on the first project I've ever hated, to realizing I have to not only change houses (my house listed yesterday), to trying to figure out what in the hell I'm going to do next professionally, becasue another love of mine has foresaken me.

Add to the fact that I had a horrible blowout with my W last night. We were getting along fine, but then I remembered that earlier in the evening I had to lie to the other neighbors about why the real estate sign was in my yard that day....something I hate to do, lie...can't do, really....and I told her that I wasn't happy that her deception has led to so many other things...the latest of which is to make me a liar for her. Do you know what her response was to that? She actually attacked my integrity by saying that I have to do this sort of thing all the time - telling people a story becasue it's not their business what's REALLY going on - and that I shouldn't be so upset.

Well...I lost it. I became aggressively angry. To the point where - when she wouldn't acknowledge that she had absolutely no right to question my integrity - I became stark raving, Green-Hulk furious. I picked up her air bed and threw it downstairs...TWICE. I told her to get out of my room, and when she refused...and refused to understand why I was so upset...I grabbed her by the arms and tried to forcibly remove her from the room. Of course, she resisted...twisted out of my grasp and fell to the floor in pain from the burn of my grasp.

Now I'm the bad guy. The brute who told her he would never hurt her...with bruises on her arms to prove I'm an idiot and a liar. This whole nightmare affair has not only devastated two families....but it's brought me - the person who held on to his integrity - down to it's level. I feel horrible, and she's pissed. And rightfully so.

I've just had too many things happen to me all at once. I can't take it anymore. The pain is so prevalant that I can't think....I can't sleep.....I can't even be the person I was once proud of, which kills me more than anything. I've lost the love of my life....the career of my life, which I loved.....the only thing that keeps me around is my children. As much as I'm disappointed and disillusioned with my wife, I'm still that much in love with my children. I would DIE before I make them unhappy...but I feel like - for the first time in my life - that that's not an unreasonable option. Not that I would ever make that happen by my own hand....just that it doesn't sound like such a horrible thing anymore....which would have been the LAST thing I'd have told you three weeks ago.

I'm in so much pain, I just don't know what to do. I have 8:30 appointment with my divorce attorney tomorrow to write up the marriage disillusionment (sp?), which I can file with the court and decide whether I want to go from there. She's trying to show me that she doesn't want me to leave....but I can't decide if that matters or not. Do you know how much it kills me to write that out? I used to live by what made her happy. That's all gone now....and I don't know what I did to make her throw it away. And I honestly don't know if I can ever forgive her for throwing it away...if only temporarily. She's damaged me to the very core of my soul. It hurts so bad.

Thank goodness for alcohol tonight. Not sure if I'd have made it without the Limoncello and the Absolut in the freezer. Don't get me wrong....this isn't an every day occurrence. But today, it was a good thing.

Wow. I feel like I have been reading my own words. Except for the professional stuff...I too love my job, but it is not headed for disaster, I could have written this post. I don't have any words for encouragement except that if it is the thoughts of your children that keep you going, don't stop thinking about them. They will need you more than ever. Their mother is probably not in a psychologically/emotionally healthy point to deal with their needs...not that you are, but your slate is clean and they need your support. The alleged violent incident....apologize to her...that's all you can do. Don't let the anger seep into the divorce stuff if you decide to take that route. Things can turn so ugly and the two of you, who were partners in life, can end up as mortal enemies...only impacting on the children whose lives you are trying to preserve. Gosh...I really don't have any words to share except that I am so sorry about the pain and can certainly identify with that. I wrote in an earlier post about how I too now had a frame of reference for suicide....that notion never made sense to me...I couldn't understand the depth of saddness that people much reach, the depth of despair that people much reach, the pain that people must experience where ending their life was an option....I understand it now. I could/would never attempt such a thing, but I certainly understand it now. You have experienced in the last 4 weeks some of the major stressful life events....of course you are frazzled...depressed....sucking up to your martinis....just be careful. Try to take care of yourself whatever that means for you. Is there something you and your children can do together? What hobbies do they enjoy? You honestly enjoy their company? Why don't the three of you take up golf...think of the laughs and the fun you could have. Staying busy....what a paradox....how can one stay busy when one can't concentrate? I can't concentrate. I stay busy walking around the house. I do take walks in the neighborhood...that might be difficult for you....drive somewhere and hike. Do you live in a warm or cool climate? I took up kayaking...that's fun....You are reading this saying to yourself...barf barf....there is nothing I can say to ease your pain. The only thing I can say is that I have and am experiencing the EXACT feelings, frustrations, anger, depression, sadness.....that doesn't help I know. Something that jerked my nose into joint yesterday as I was speaking on the phone to a colleague. His 6 year old son died last year of ecoli...he ate some bad meat or something. This man's pain is unbearable. Everytime I speak with him I am cognizant NOT to ask how he is doing...I know how he is doing...he wants his son back and that will never happen. Yesterday I slipped up and asked, he said, "I'm not doing so well today." He is an attorney and is trying to get by day by day. I know it is no comfort when you hear such things as, "thank your lucky stars" "things could be worse"....even though that is true, your pain is your pain and it hurts. I don't even know why I shared that with you. The anger stuff is a natural consequence of the collateral damage...I am not justifying it, but at least you are aware of it and can possibly stop yourself before it gets out of control for you. I was always aware of my children and the fact that I didn't want them to see me in that state....I was careful not to role model anything in front of them that I would find acceptable behavior on their part...that helped me. I tried to put a picture of my children in my mind. I am rambling and you are probably saying...and your point is....I don't really have a point...just letting you know that I am so sorry that you too are in the throes of such pain and disappointment....I can't promise anything...but I know it won't last forever...pay attention to your body..remember when you felt so relaxed with the children? Try to get to that point again...if you can. Why don't you tell the neighbors the truth? What would be the truth? You want to move...isn't that the truth? Or, are these people such good friends that you feel you owe them another explanation? I don't know. I was honest with everyone when they asked me questions.....I am not a good liar....I am convinced it will come back and get me....not that I would care...but my moral fiber is wound tighter when it comes to lies...perhaps you could tell them that you are just curious as to whether or not you could sell the house...tell them you are anticipating a job change and that you need to downsize (that is almost the truth). Best of luck to you. I am obviously not sleeping and it is 4am....I just get up and work when I have trouble sleeping. Keep us posted with what is going on. This has been the best find of my life for me now...I am really dependent on these people for survival....that's a load to put on someone, but that's why we are here...I can't really include myself in that category...I am one of the students trying to learn my way from these "seasoned" teachers.

hi bob

hey mate you certainly have had a lot to contend with in a relatively short period of time, lots of losses. i lost my mum in march and it has been tough dealing with that let alone everything else. but mate i know what didnt help and that is the booze. it mght for a bit, take you aware from it all, but it takes take all the crap away, in fact it makes it worse. i know, believe me. all the booze did for me in the end was give me something else to deal with be it hangovers or trying to cope with how i behaved when i was drunk. dont go there, it isnt worth it. i also realised that if i was drunk i couldnt see what H was up to haha, pretty good motivator not to get to silly with it hey.

so maybe have a couple of wipe out days or whatever, but do it carefully and responsibly and dont make it a new hobby, not a good thing, but very tempting for someone who doesnt have a hobby - i know that too.

you said you got angry, that is good, you have a lot to be angry about, loss and grief involves getting angry. it is a normal reaction to disbelief and fear. so get angry but again, do it carefully and responsibly, dont let your anger harm yourself or more importantly others.

you are not a baddy, you have just done a bad thing (being violent towards your wife)but you can stop doing that now, you dont have to remain on that level, ok.

you listed all the things you ahve lost and the only things you havent lost are your kids (dont mean to call them things haha but you know what i mean). so focus on your children. not as something to have a fight with your wife about or beat her at, but your relationship with your kids is a good thing to keep, maintain and make a major priority.

i would suggest, given all the grief you are dealing with that maybe you go and see the dr or a psych, to get some meds and to have someone to talk through all your losses. meds will help you get back onto an even keel and help to keep you level headed to deal with the next phases of your separation and divorce. those are important things to do fo yourself and your children. they might also help cope with some of the stuff at work. remember dr meds are better than self medicating with booze and absolut (spelling) is not a medicine haha.

hope my ideas help, also try to get some rest, eat well and keep occupied, these things will help you get through this stuff.

cheers
kath

I think your posts resonate with us because you tell our story, so many of us have been there. And you are honest about it as well, which is very difficult.

Two things glare out at me from your post. 1)medicating with alcohol and 2) physical abuse. These are often likely to go together. It might seem that you are just using alcohol to numb the pain but when it changes your behavior that is a big red flag. I would suggest getting some help with that, right off. Go to an Alanon meeting, a divorce support group, or just check out AA to find someone who identifies with your pain and the use of booze to numb it. Reach out, lean on somebody who is strong enough to help you without blame or shame.

In addition, you are in a huge transition right now and like others have suggested, get some professional guidance,as you say this is too much for you. Treat your health FIRST. Reconize that you are in crisis, think of how you would want your kids to be treated if they were in this place, then take some action to get help for your pain. We are here for you, thanks for your posts.

Sending good wishes to you.

Judy

No, the alcohol didn't spark the violence. It actually gave me the temporary calm that I needed last night. I felt like an elephant was sitting on my chest, and every breath I took was harder than the last. Don't worry, it was only a temporary fix, and I won't fall into that trap. I just needed it last night. We'll see what today brings....one step at a time. Thank you all for your concern. I really appreciate reading your responses and knowing that somebody understands and cares, because nobody close to me can or does.

I think I do need to talk to my own counselor or therapist, just to help me sort out my feelings and get on an even keel. The rage I felt the other night was something I haven't experienced in 20 years...and I could attribute that to a nicotine addiction, which is long since gone. No, that was true rage at the audacity of challenging my integrity in this matter. That's the only thing I have left, and she wants to take that too.

I just don't know if I can hold out with everything that's going on. I usually love a good challenge, but this one is slowly - well, quickly - eating away at me like a river's edge.

One day at a time.

Bob,

Let me pass along a small piece of advice that my Father gave me…Your going to have good days and your going to have bad days. He was trying to tell both my wife and I that when someone is dealing with the aftermath of an affair it will take the betrayed spouse a considerable amount of time to be their normal self. So, you’ve had a bad day with your wife, yelling and getting a little physical is no ones idea of good day! I too recall my wife and I having a pushing battle in our bedroom, she threw her wedding ring at me and I told her that I’d rather she not wear the ring at all. I tell use this to give you an idea that you’re both going through the same set of emotions that many of us have dealt with over time. Keeping your anger under control is going to be a challenge, BUT it can be done. I know that you do not what your kids witnessing such behavior, so I want you to try and remember what I said to you in an earlier thread. In spite of ALL that you have been and continue to go through, do not allow this set of circumstances to beat you down. I refused to let my wife or anyone else “win” if you know what I mean? I could give a Rat behind how my spouse chooses to conduct herself! Your children should be what drives you to succeed and I sense that to be true with you. Apologize to you wife for your actions, be the BIGGER person, do not lower your standards because life has become challenging.
I too work for the entertainment industry (22 years), I too loved my job and I also thought I had a good marriage but I’ve learned that there is more important issues in our life. Jobs will come and go, spouses will come and go but how you will handle this ordeal will last with you until the day you die. I know how much pain your feeling, it almost drove me insane but I kept my focus on showing my extended family and friends that I’m a winner.
I sense how much you Love your children, do what is best for them, in ever sense of the word. Allow yourself to have “bad” days but do not make it a habit, learn from your experiences and live one day at a time. There will be a day when your children may need your advice in handling a similar situation in their lives. Through all that I have gone through I can so one thing for certain…It have made me a better, stronger person that has put my priorities in order. My faith has grown tremendously; my relationship with my kids is stronger than ever and I no longer take the small things in life for granite ( a beautiful sun set, a warm hug from my 7 year old or a good nights sleep).
Know that you are continuingly in my thoughts and prayers,
Gary.

"and I told her that I wasn't happy that her deception has led to so many other things...the latest of which is to make me a liar for her"

My ex also wanted me to lie to his bosses wife about what was happening at the time. Her and I got together sometimes and he didn't want me to tell her that we were divorcing and certainly not why b/c it could have hurt his job. I didn't tell her why we were divorcing but I told her we were divorcing and kept any details to myself. Afterwards when I told my ex that I wouldn't lie for him, he denied asking me to do so. Ughh!!

Hang in there Bob, it does get better even though it doesn't feel like it right now.

Charlie

Bob,

I get it. Been there. Done that.

I have the advantage of some hindsight now. I've read some about this in regard to post traumatic stress disorder--which many of us suffer or suffered.

You're not alone in this experience.

I found it interesting to note that people generally don't drink during the stress event. The initial 'fight or flight' response has some survival advantage. It helps to numb pain. Drinking is more common after it's over, and the heightened endorphin levels wear off. Drinking can compensate for the endorphin withdrawal, and the lack of endorphin activity that follows trauma.

I drank a lot of wine the first months after d-day....just to sleep and survive the pain. I used it sporadically for the next 3-4(?) years especially when a wave a pain came over me.

That was then.

My recovery didn't start in earnest until that pattern stopped. When I could eventually ride out a wave on my own, and impliment some different types of coping skills for making it through I started getting better on much deeper levels.

There's no quick easy way through this though.

Thanks Charlie...RedWolf...and thanks so much to Gary as well. Your words are always so...I don't know...powerful to me. It does sound like our situations are almost identical. It's discouraging to know that your marriage didn't work out...but I'm beginning to accept the fact that mine may suffer the same fate. I'd have said "likely will" suffer the same fate, but I'm trying not to be so negative.

I cancelled my appointment with my Lawyer to file disillusionment (or whatever it's called). I figure I can do that at any time. I'm trying to think positively, but I want anybody to tell me if it really is possible to forgive such a horrific thing. I mean, this was my wife and one of my best friends....having sex and a passionate romance behind their spouses' backs for a year (turns out, 13 months now that I'm checking my travel schedule). How can that year ever come back to me? How can I say, "Well, you were human and it was just a mistake", when everything in my soul tells me that a mistake doesn't last for a whole year. How can I ever bring myself to want to touch her again without feeling sick to my stomach and thinking about the sex she was having with someone else? How can I ever stop hating her for foresaking everything - including the happiness and love of her own children - for her stupid little fantasy that she knew was wrong? How can I bring myself to share intimacies with someone so unabashedly selfish and narcissistic? How can I love someone again - who I loved so deeply for 22 years - who would go so far over the edge that she would throw all of that time and love and emotion and children and shared hardships and shared euphoria and shared LIFE in the garbage for a fantasy that she knew would never work out? How in the world can I justify that?

Even if my anger and pain fade in time, how can anyone bring themself to forgive the fact that someone would treat such a fantastic and wonderful thing with such disregard and disrespect? That's not the personality trait of anyone I would ever want to be friends with, much less be in love with. My head is telling me that there's no way I can EVER respect someone who could be so.....horrible...dirty...bad. But I look into her eyes and I see what made me love her. I see the good person who inhabited that body once. I know most of her is still there, but that small part that strayed now takes up such a huge part of what she is now. In my harshest, cruelest manner, I see her as a filthy tramp, a horrible mother, a bad friend (to TWO people...me and her lover), and a person who disregarded her wedding vows to satisfy her own pleasure. A person who wasn't willing or strong enough to resist, and was willing to risk it all for a stupid fantasy...and I think that she deserves to lose it all if she was willing to risk it all. I WANT to be vindictive. I WANT revenge. I want her to suffer for that horrible act that affected so many people, because we DON'T DESERVE IT!!!

But then, I think of my kids. The one thing - even if she did have to vilify me to justify her fantasy - that she never considered. Those two beautiful, smart, innocent souls who could be absolutely destroyed if I were to leave. I think maybe I should hang around for them....I KNOW I should, but I have to decide if I'll be living in a prison...and is it worth it? Is it possible that a spark could ignite between me and my wife again, or will I "lead a life of quiet desperation" and always miss what I had...what was so right....and is now so wrong.....?

"but I want anybody to tell me if it really is possible to forgive such a horrific thing"

Thats a real good question but the only one qualified to answer it is you.

Charlie

Over the years we've had forum discussions on what forgiveness is.

There are many descriptions.

In general, it would seem that it can't be forced by will or done prematurely because that can backfire. A WS can't get it for themselves via guilt although it's common to hear, "You won't forgive me", as if were a job that we're failing to accomplish. I often ask, "Is it a betrayed person's job to forgive?" Then there's the line, "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself". I never liked that one much although I understand the intent.

I found it to be more of an organic process which took time. It's about freedom from anger and triggers. My X is 'hangin' with the OW now 7 years after d-day, and after a 4 year attempt at reconciliation with many lies. I can not differentiate my 'forgiveness' with my 'recovery' process. They seem one and the same. Overall, I don't worry much about forgiveness itself. For me it's more about distance and forgetting.

Of course within marriage reconciliation it can seem more amplified and important to make a decision regarding forgiveness....whatever that really is. However, I don't think it'll budge before it's ready to.

Bob...I read your post and could have written it myself. I don't think you will have the answers to your questions until you LIVE THEM. If your children are your main concern...then attend to them and what you think they need at this time (I am not suggesting that you ignore your own needs...I don't think you have a clear picture what they are yet). It could be that this A is the jump start to an even better relationship. You won't know that until you put yourself there. Not that you want to attend to any type of feelings that she has has this time...but I am wondering what is going through her mind. She might be saying, "How can I stay with a man who will always be "one up""....who will have the power? Will she because she has the ability to do it again....or will you because you have been living at the foot of the cross? I don't even know how the concept of power plays in this. Those are the things that came up for me while I was reading your post. What was going through her head? Who knows. The power in the relationship is off kelter...I don't know what that means for the two of you. I always wanting a level playing field...I think that interprets itself into commitment....I was always very committed. He wasn't. He had some demons in his mind that pushed him to seek what he needed outside of the committed relationship. Did she? These feelings and emotions are so foreign to me and to you too. I never entertained the thought of being involved with someone else outside of my marriage. I was happy with me, happy with him...satisfied with every aspect of the marriage (almost). So to try to guess why he did this, is foreign to me. I am the one that still got chills when I touched him...he was all that I needed in a life partner. Somehow I failed him...he didn't tell me so I can't read his mind. BUT, there was something about me that prohibited him from telling me. Those are some of the thoughts that I have. Something that I am curious about is your reference to her as a bad mother. This A really didn't have anything to do with her abiility to parent,did it? She is still the same MOTHER she was, she is not the same WIFE. I realize that they bleed into one another, but my guess is that your children are having the same parent/child relationship with her as they always did..except that she is probably emotionally not as available. The issue you have right now in your life has to do with the SPOUSAL SUBSYSTEM....not the PARENTAL SUBSYSTEM....your family system has three components....spousal, parental, and sibling. Certainly attend to your children and their needs. I am just asking you to really think about how this A has affected her ability to be a good mother? YOU can't define her role as a mother...you are not her child. Her CHILDREN define that role. If you were curious to see if she was a bad mother, wouldn't you have to ask the children?

Those are just some things that came up for me as I read your post. My husband, oops, former husband...really relinquished his role as a parent when he moved out. His relationship with his children has changed but I didn't have anything to do with that. I can see how it has hurt them...but they have to take that issue up with their father, I don't. In their heart of hearts they know that he eats his Sunday meals with his "new" family. So, I think that they are experiencing the feelings of abandonment and rejection. At some level I think they feel sorry for him. I think they know that he is in a much worse place than he was. BUT, again,he had to do that to find it out. I am stopping, I am rambling.

I have an additional question. What does your wife want to happen? You have never mentioned what how she would like your reltionship with her to go? I realize that you can't go back...but you can go forward. I often fantasize that my former husband will ask me out on a date and that we will "pretend" that we had never met. Just take it from there and see what happens....I am not sure that he would fall in love with me again. He is certainly a different person. I am not sure that I would want to remain in a relationship with him...right now I do...but I haven't tried it..I don't have that option. I am fantasizing all of this....I wish I could practice it and let it be MY decision. For what it's worth

Sorry for this long post, but - in advance - I'm feeling very confused and felt like I had to write it out. Please be forewarned that it gets a little racy. Please tell me if this is not appropriate for this forum and I'll make sure it doesn't happen ever again.


You truly are a sage, Sage. Your observations and questions are very astute. Let me answer some of them, and tell you what happened last night that has me more confused than I've been in a long time...

We are indeed having power issues. We're both extremely stubborn, bull-headed people, and power has always played into many issues we've had. I used to be horribly vicious and would exert "power" over the relationship (louder voice, strong physical presence, higher education, higher money earning, etc.), but over the years, she helped me to grow as a person who undertood the importance of shared commitment and a level playing field in order to get along (for life?). It's truly one of the "changes" in my personality...my outlook on life for which she is directly responsible, and forever which I will be eternally grateful. She has told me as much as you surmised recently, that she refuses to be my doormat, because she's trying to hang on to the last bit of dignity and self-respect that she has. I understand and acknowledge that. She is truly pissed at me for many things...the physical issue being the catalyst that sparks anger about other things...the fact that I can be so cruel when I constantly remind her of what a bad person I think she is....that she thinks I don't want to listen and understand because I just want her to hurt. All those things that you've all warned me will cause a deeper rift between us has indeed done just that. So she is asking herslef if she will forever be reminded - by me at any given moment - about this horrible event for the rest of her life whenever we have any type of conflict.....and I can't tell her that she won't be. This has caused her to re-evaluate whether SHE would be living in the prison or not. Yes, I understand all of this.

And yes, she did have some demons in her mind which forced her to seek something else...I honestly believe that, although neither of us know the what's and the why's. The funny thing is though, even though she gave her emotional self to someone else, I understand how that can happen in a connection...and attraction. I have felt that before with a coworker, although I wouldn't allow it to go any further (yes, she knows about it). But at least I understand how that can spark. What I will always have trouble with is the fact that she would cross the line and turn it into a sexual affair. You need to know what I know about the sexual part of it. I've corroborated with both of them that the sex was ALWAYS about him. She never came close to being satisfied when they had sex, except that they kissed passionately during the sex. It was always fast, carnal, for his pleasure, with no cuddling or warmth afterwards. And yet, she kept the fantasy going...kept doing it, even though - when we make love - she ALWAYS has an orgasm....her pleasure has always been my goal, my pleasure to give to her, and she would tell you the same. This brings up a disturbing and interesting observation. Now, I know that women in general associate sex with love...like the 18 year old girl who will let her boyfriend take advantage of her in order to keep his love....she doesn't know any better and can't differentiate between the two. I think my wife essentially did the same thing here. She allowed the sex - gave him what he wanted - in order to maintain the romantic, passionate friendship she had with him. It was the feeling and romance that was important to her, not the sexual satisfaction. How does that make me feel knowing that? I'm torn. It makes me laugh to myself that she couldn't enjoy herself....that he was a horrible lover...makes me laugh at them both. But then, I think that - essentially what she did was whore herself out to him in order to maintain her fantasy...to keep his interest so she could feel her passion. That was her payoff instead of money (she was getting plenty of that from me busting my ass overseas). THAT'S what I'm struggling with at this moment...that she would have so little respect for herself that she would do THAT! There are plenty of other things too, but this one is forefront...and here's why....

Last night, we went to my comapny's service awards banquet. It's my 10 year anniversary with the company, and they honored me and many other people who have been with the company for 10, 15, 20, 25, 35 and 40 years at an extremely high-end event....really, really special. We had planned on going before D-Day, but that went out the window since. So, I asked her out on a date with me. The evening was the most surreal thing I think I've ever experienced (in fact, I kept quoting Jim Morrison to myself..."This is the strangest life I've ever known!"). I was there, being honored by a company in which I used to be passionately in love and now can't stand, accompanied by a woman who used to be the love of my life and who I now have a difficult time even looking in the eye and touching. We were surrounded by truly great friends who would come to her and tell her how grateful they were for being such a good wife to me and how much they love and appreciate me for my work and for just me personally. I don't reiterrate that to make myself feel better, I only bring it up because I saw - as the night went on - that she was truly feeling the remorse for what she had done...that she was really understanding just what a horrible, stupid thing she's done and that she regretted throwing it all away for a schoolgirl fantasy. She spent the entire evening touching me...grabbing my hand, rubbing my leg....trying very hard to show that she knew she was wrong. I can tell by looking in her eyes too. After 22 years together, some things don't need to be said out loud.

So when the evening was over and we went back home to an empty house (the kids were at their friends'), we were undressing and she came to hug me and wouldn't let go. Long, R-Rated story short, she wanted me to make love to her. I told her I couldn't. I can't bring myself to even kiss her, as I know that was the big thing between them when they made love (had sex). I knew I wasn't ready to do this, although I had thought a thousand times to myself that this was something we NEVER did wrong before, and I should just make love to her again and get that out of the way to work on the mental issue of the A...but something keeps telling me that's not the right thing to do. (Sidebar - In fact, a co-worker/friend who I told I was having marital issues asked me if we ever had trouble with sex. When I told him that was the LAST issue we had, he said that we should set a calendar beside the bed and plan to knock it out at least three times a week..."Because if you can do that, it'll make all the other shit a LOT easier to deal with!" He's right in a way, but he didn't know the issue of her having sex with somebody else. So I had been thinking about just getting that out of the way lately, but still knowing it wasn't right).

Anyway, I told her that I couldn't touch her in the way she was touched by him....that I couldn't think about performing that act. This is where it gets a little more NC-17, so I apologize....She told me that she just wanted me in any way, so she asked me to do it to her..."differently" than she did with him. I did....and here's where it got REALLY strange for me. It was purely for my pleasure...just like the sex in her affair (but different). I felt strange afterward...sat on the floor wondering what just happened. She sat down next to me, just touching me as if to tell me she loved me. It dawned on me at that moment that she whored herself again....but for MY affection this time...and I didn't know what to think of that. I did know what was the right thing to next though. I proved to her that I wasn't about ME, ME, ME...and that's not what I wanted from her. I layed her down and gave her the satisfaction she never received with her lover. I made sure that it was done in a way that they never attempted, and I never once kissed her...not anywhere on her body even. I still couldn't bring myself to be passionate and intimate with her. That sounds strange, doesn't it? Those events were all about sex, not making love in any way, although I know that she may be associating one with the other. When we were done, I said to her, "There's the difference....think about it!" She understood.

This morning when we woke up, she asked me to take a shower with her....something that was always our thing to do....not sexually, but spiritually if you will...our time together to be around each other alone and conscious. I told her that I wasn't ready for that...that it was too intimate, like kissing, and I can't bring myself to be intimate with her, becasue I still have so much pain, andger...hatred. I told her that I was having mixed feelings and was very confused about what happened last night. I also told her my theory of how I thought she sold her sexual self...her body, in order to acquire her lover, which in turn was ME last night, instead of her other lover in essentially the same way. She couldn't deny that, and I can tell this morning that she feels horrible and as confused as I am.

I guess I'm really messed up. I don't know if what happened last night was right or not. My pain hasn't subsided because of it...I know that. At least, we're touching and being close as opposed to physically hurting each other. Maybe that's a start. Maybe not....I honestly don't know what to think. I know I still can't stomach the thought of passion with her....that the thought of what she did still gives me such great grief and was so very wrong....and I don't know if I can live the rest of my life with that. I'm trying to remain positive, and I'm keeping hope alive...especially when we can string two OK days together like this weekend (no, I think I'm a long way from having a good day).

>>I also told her my theory of how I thought she sold her sexual self...her body, in order to acquire her lover<<

It's interesting that you would tell this tale on yourself in the same post as you mention "power issues" between you and your wife.

My take on it: you simply exported YOUR confusion/anger/frustration with the sexual issues onto her by telling her your theory. In a practical sense, sharing that with her probably didn't help, probably couldn't have helped, and it might have hurt.

See, Bob, I'm one of those who says what I think pretty freely too. I have learned the hard way that a spouse (for that matter, ANYONE else) doesn't necessarily want to hear all of it. In my experience, blunt honesty often inflicts blunt-force trauma on a loved one, and it makes real communication harder, not easier.

In short, probably every private thought shouldn't be shared with a spouse, especially when one is attempting to rebuild a marriage.

Chris.

Bob

I agree with Chris.

"At least, we're touching and being close as opposed to physically hurting each other. Maybe that's a start. Maybe not....I honestly don't know what to think. I know I still can't stomach the thought of passion with her"

You know my ex and I were working things out quite well (so I thought) in the beginning after his A and I also didn't want to make love to him right away. I decided I would after reading "After the Affair" because of some things the book said and I think it was the right choice for me.

The bad thing was the fact that every time we were intimate at first, I would cry afterwards. All I could think about was them together, as if there were three of us in bed. That was awful. The book also said something about it becoming easier with time and that also happened for us.

I guess what I'm trying to say Bob is that when you initially start being intimate and affectionate again it will hurt regardless of how or when you do it. Those stop techniques do work even when your being intimate - I used them a lot back then.

It doesn't seem that your wife was selling herself or whoring herself. You said you could tell she was feeling really bad during that evening and she obviously wanted to get close to you because she cares about you. I know that is hard to believe when this all just happened but your wife does have a choice to leave if she wants to just like you but she is trying to get close instead.

Charlie

Howdy Bob,

I also agree with Chris's post.

I can't help but wonder if those comments were made to your W with the intention to not just hurt her but also degrade her. How is wanting to reconnect with you and please you whoring herself? Perhaps she needed to make a new memory to help erase the imagines of the OM(just guessing there).

I don't see any good coming out of lecturing and degrading her. I know you are hurting like hell Bob. But I think you both need to learn to "fight fair" so to speak. Bring this up to your MC and ask for some guidance in this area. Communication should be opening doors, not slamming them shut.

Has she starting go to IC yet?

Regards,

Tex

Yes, she has started her IC, and she thinks it will be good for her. I'm glad I took everyone's advice and backed down from my closed-minded approach and let her pick the person she wanted to see.

I understand what everyone is saying about our discussion this morning. It's funny though, I swear it wasn't meant to be vindictive like I have been. I know damn well when I'm being a jerk, and it wasn't like that in this case. I was just trying to figure it out - out loud (mistake!?!) and yes, I was apparently too honest....too blunt, and should have thought about it more. I was - still am - very confused about the whole thing that transpired. You're right, I am hurting like hell and I say things without thinking sometime, which is very much not like me (which makes me hurt and get even angrier still). I need to work on being a better me, in order to keep what was/is good about me good. I understand.

I'm working on the fair fighting thing as well. It's never been my strong suit. It took her years to figure out that when I'm being nasty it means I'm losing the argument. Kudos to her for being clever enough to figure that out. It's obvious I feel like I'm losing this one, isn't it? I swear I'm trying to cool off, and I feel like I am a bit. The pain and anger are still there, but my head is getting a little clearer as time goes by.

I know, I know....just like everyone told me it would. Thank you all again for your words of wisdom and encouragement. I never in my wildest dreams would have thought I'd have to face something this difficult, and without your support, it would have been - would still be - so much worse.

Bob,

I'm very proud of you! Your moving in the right direction....

Gary

Bob, the first year is about survival, just some how managing to get through it, especially in the first couple of months. All the he said/she said splitting hairs stuff, all the anger, the crying, the self examination to the point of self destruction, all the crazy making, all the grasping at anything to understand why ----- it's all normal and it will get better with time. What you describe so well with your writing gift is exactly what we've all been through emotionally and are somehow at our own paces finding our way through this nightmare. You will too.

Wish you well, H2C

"What you describe so well with your writing gift is exactly what we've all been through emotionally"

Very true H2C.



Charlie

So, after a. few days of getting along better than the previous three weeks, something else comes up. Our other neighbors (the good ones) came over this weekend to talk to us...ask us about how our two Open House days went, and about other properties we've been looking at. But while they were there, I just had this strange feeling by the looks on their faces, and especially the way the wife would look at our engagement picture that we have hanging on the wall. When they left, I told my W that it's obvious that they knew.

Well, I guess guilt got the best of my W (partially due to me being so upset about having to lie to my good friends to cover up her indiscretion), so she called the wife neighbor to tell her the truth. Turns out, they had known for quite a while because OM's W told him. Which means, OM's W is probably telling everybody she knows. And of course, even the good neighbors have other good friends in the neighborhood. He wouldn't say anything, but she has a tendency to drink too much and spill whatever she knows ALL the time. So...this affects a chain of friends, acquaintances, parents of school mates, parents of sports mates...so on, and so on, and so on throughout our community. It also makes me ashamed to even look my friends in the eyes...essentially losing yet ANOTHER friend thanks to her selfishness.

And imagine one day when my son or daughter come off the baseball/softball field or from practice, and ask my wife why their friends' mothers are calling her a tramp, and what does that mean? I can't even imagine that horror...and it's not unlikely in the community in which we live. We had agreed to keep the reason for our issues from the kids. They don't need to know what their mother did that has negatively impacted their lives forever. I don't want them to know that their own mother never even considered them when she performed her horrible selfish act.

So, we're trying to sell the house now...and now I'm wondering if we should even be looking for a new house to live in...for several reasons. If I can't stand any more of this torture and decide to bail, that leaves me with another house to sell, in a down market. If OM's W and the GOOD neighbor's W blab, do we even want to remain in this community?

It's like I'll never wake up from this nightmare...and more people keep getting dragged into it....they get to share it with me. What a horrible, destructive thing this A is on so very many levels. What kind of mind wouldn't consider all of these consequences...especially when they involve her own children? I know she's feeling the regrets now. I know she's hurting...I can feel it. But "I'm sorry" - even as much as I want to keep hearing it - can't fix the damage, direct OR collateral. Her remorse is a step toward our inner selves healing, but it won't get our friends back....it won't get us out of this horrible mess with moving....it won't make the wheels stop turning in the community....it won't bring that year of deceit and sex back...it won't repair the lifelong commitment, that contract with me of honor, respect, fidelity that she ripped to shreds. It's easy for people to say, "I don't care what anybody else says or thinks", but let them just try living like that. Try explaining to their kids why these things are being said. Try ignoring shame. Try all of this while their beloved career has failed them, and their father dies. Try losing friends because of what somebody else did.

I'm sorry....it appears I'm having one of those bad days. If I can get the elephant to stop standing on my chest, maybe I can take a deep breath and make myself busy with work or something else to divert my attention. Ugh!

<<<I'm sorry....it appears I'm having one of those bad days.>>> That's what we're here for Bob, the good days, bad days and everything in between.

The private humiilation is tough enough to deal with isn't it ...let alone neighbors, acquaintances knowing. You walk out the door and it feels like everyone is staring at you...feeling sorry for you...perhaps even wondering why you don't get a backbone and leave because afterall that is what THEY would do, right?

This is where you need to be careful Bob. Its very easy to let outside influences( perceived or not) to dictate your actions. The truth of the matter is trying to save your marriage and keep your family together takes a helluva lot of backbone. It takes strength to try and reconcile with a remorseful spouse. Its not weak Bob.

You walk out the door with the your head held high buddy and you look those same people in the eye. You have nothing to be ashamed of for trying to hold your family together.

Make sure you bring this up to your MC and see if he/she has any recommendations on the best way to deal with it. Neighbors are gonna gossip Bob, that's what neighbors do until the next story comes along. I honestly doubt its as far spread as it feels right now.

As for your wife I can't imagine how humilated she feels. I'm sure she thinks she has a big ole "Scarlet A" attached to her forehead for all to see. Just remember there are 3 healings taking place: yours, hers and the relationship. She needs to be able to express how this makes her feel too.

What did she say to the neighbor? Hopefully nothing more than "I had an impropriate relationshop with so-so and Bob and I are trying to put our marriage back together". Was this her idea to call? Why was there a need to explain the situation at all?

The bottom line is this is y'alls marriage, it has nothing to do with anyone else. I wouldn't respond to gossip Bob, it has nothing to do with facts. People are gonna believe what they wanna believe.

Regards,

Tex

Bob. Wow. I can honestly say that you will get beyond all of this. I realize that isn't any comfort because you are in the "throes" of it now. I guess my greatest concern are your children. They certainly don't need to know the "nitty gritty" of the town talk, but perhaps you do need to sit down with them and talk about some of the changes that are taking place. How old are your children, I forget. I don't think that either of you should be the scape goat in this marriage. I realize that she was the one who strayed and broke the marriage commitment, but do you honestly want your childre to know that about their mother? No. Are you really afraid that something might be said to them? If so, I think it is important for you and your W to sit down with them and explain that the two of you have a come to a point in the marriage where you are questioning the commitment you made. Why do they think you are selling the house? Why do they think you are no longer friends with the neighbors? Maybe they haven't noticed it, but children are a great deal more astute than we them credit for. I sense a tremendous amount of anger on your part....obviously...DUH...but I think that you need to try to "curb" is with the children. I was always afraid that I would blurt out something that I would later regret...to my children or in front of them. I know that the intense emotions you are experiencing now will subside. Talk about collateral damage...you haven't seen all of it yet...it will creep upon you at the least expected time. I imagine that your wife is so terribly embarrassed about all of this she wants to bury her head it the sand. I can only imagine how you are feeling...having to lie to neighbors, etc. I recall after my FS moved out I didn't tell anyone for 4 months. I was very close to my neighbors but could not bring myself to tell anyone. ONe evening my next door neighbor came over with a jar of vinegar. She said that she saw J in the store trying to pick out salad dressing and she told him to buy the envelope and she would bring over the vinegar. Of course, he was shopping with his new family....she brought the vinegar over and I told her that he was living with another woman and her children. What a blow. Anyway, I dont' have any words of advice...it has been so comforting to me to know that there are people out there...good, healthy, grounded people who are experiencing the same thing I have. Thank goodness for their support and wisdom...it really is comforting to know that this too shall pass...maybe not for you at this moment. I guess your selling the house is not an option....that's like living next door to cancer. I think the insights that you get from this site will provide you the increased knowlege that you need to make some of your decisions. I would caution you to take advice that you don't think "fits" with your soul...again, pay attention to your body and what it tells you. BUT, try to nip the demeaning responses to other in the bud...I have always found it helpful to find an element of truth in a statement that someone makes to me that puts me on the defensive. For example, "You are only concerned for yourself" someone sayd to you..you want to say, "No joke bitch, look what you've done." BUT, find an element of truth...."You are right, I am focusing more on my self because all of this is new to me and I need to massage what is going on...." whatever. Anyway, best of luck. Take your time....that's all you have is time.

Tex wrote >>People are gonna believe what they wanna believe<<

I agree ... there isn't a whole helluva lot that can be done about that.

Also, it seems to me that basically good, decent, smart, kind people sometimes have affairs.

You're all correct, I know that it doesn't matter what other people say or think, and if my other neighbor is a true friend, it won't matter. It's still humiliating....degrading. The results of this A have brought me down to my lowest low. I told her today that she could have tied me up and publicly flogged me...even defiled me and it wouldn't have been as degrading as what she did. I know, I know...more expressing too much truth that isn't helping, right?

Well, we've been arguing a lot lately. Especially about the sex aspect of the A. She told me once (not too long ago), "If you have an affair, it better be the best sex of your life, because you'll pay for it!" Funny how she never had to say that to me, and it turned out to be she who cheated. Now, is it supposed to just be OK? I mean, ultimately, that's the goal, right? Not that the act or the fact that she did it was OK, but that she could have had the best sex of her life without me (whether she did or didn't...she still enjoyed it), and we still stay together? What's right or fair about that?

I keep telling her that the sex part of this....the stepping over the edge part, is what is bothering me the most. Certainly the emotional aspect is horribly painful, and will be a LOT to get over, but the sex iced it as the ultimate snub to me...the true final act of disrespect for me, herself, her children. But it's the actual sex that I'm now having trouble with (today anyway...what I appear to be obsessing over). It's no longer a level playing field between us. I was devoted and faithful for 22 years with her. I've been cheated out of a LOT of things, but one of which is the sex. I asked her what she would think if I went out and had sex with somebody else as many times as she had sex with him. Funny thing, that's not OK with her, although it was perfectly acceptable for her while she was doing it and lying to me, the faithful idiot...buffoon....SAP!

I want that sex back...and not from her. Quid Pro Quo. Fairness. Hell, I'll even have safe sex - unlike her - and not fall in love. I want her blessing to go level the field where the sex is concerned. Why should that be a problem for her now if she can go out and do it WITHOUT asking me if it's OK or not? The emotional stuff is a whole other set of baggage that will be much more difficult and painful to deal with, I know. Like I say, I appear to be obsessing on one thing right now. Maybe that's good, maybe it's not. Likely not, I know.

I know, I know...AGAIN....I shouldn't be looking at this particular aspect of the affair and our recovery this way. I know it's in the past, and I will either have to figure out a way to deal with it, or move on (divorce). I'm so very close to moving on...but I don't want to. I wrote her a letter today, because we only seem to argue lately. This is part of what I wrote to her in regards to making love again...
"If we can stay together, then yes, keep asking and maybe someday things will be different, but I need to know for myself that you want this in order to erase the bad memory of what you've done...to want it to show yourself that you didn't enjoy it without me like you do with me. But I need to know that you truly feel that way for yourself, not for me. I need to feel that you want to do these things because it's the right thing for both of us and it's an expression of your love for me...even your lust for me, if that's all I can get (or give back) for now...as opposed to what you may (MAY! I'm not speaking for you) have perceived as love and did because that's how you equated it. I just need to know that it's for us, that nobody else is in the bed with us...that you want to delete that memory from your head and never use it for reference, comparison, or even fantasy again. I don't have any idea how I'll know that. Maybe I never will, but - in my opinion - it needs to be your responsibility and difficult task to try and make it happen."

Of course, there's more. A LOT more, and more specific aspects of what I'm feeling right now - right or wrong. I'm so angry...I'm so hurt...but I still want to see if I can love that person who I hate so much right now, but loved so much before. I want to believe that she has fallen back in love with me again, and that she was only lost for a little while, not forever. I want to make love to her again...give her pleasure...help erase that memory from both our minds. It hurts so much though, that it's hard to think clearly about it and remain positive. I know I have to keep trying.

Bob...I think what you are going through is just the aftermath of the trauma that you have experienced over the past several weeks. I think you are continually bombarded with "triggers" that make you take a look at something else. I think your responses are legitimate reactions to probably the most stressful thing to happen in your life. Do you think that she fantasizes about the other person? I doubt it. My guess is that in order for her to recreate a more positive frame of reference for her sexual experience, she needs to do it with the person to whom she is most committed and in love with... and that sounds like you. Could the two of you not get away from the house and just spend an evening somewhere else? That might help to eliminate some of the stimuli...you are probably thinking about what sheets were on your bed, what underware she had on...all type of things can result in your, what appear to be, but are not, out of control, crazy, obsessive responses. I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have even chosen to write letters in your effort not to "start" something else. What about a temporary separation? A structured one? I think I spoke about this before. Is there somewhere you could stay for a week? Just get out for a week and let things "cool" down. Maybe the two of you are just too wound up right now to be civil to one another. Could you afford a cheap motel for a week? It's only money and it might be money well worth it....I feel so badly for what you are going through. My marriage is over and I still pine for him and still obsess about the sex thing...it's been almost 1 1/2 years for me. What does your counselor say? Does s/he suggest that the two of you part ways for a while? Just to clear the air? Does your life have someplace she can take the children for a while? Whew. Hang in there. You are probably more insightful now to what really "sets you off"...is there something you can to do express the reaction that would result in your not feeling so bad about yourself? Again,I think you are being too hard on yourself. This stuff is so fresh in your mind. Give yourself permission to express what you need to express...if in writing is a more "mature" functional way to do it, then write it. If a punching bag helps, punch a punching bag. I don't have any words of wisdom...I wish I did...

I'm ashamed to say that I feel my marriage slipping away from me. Not that there was much left to hold on to, but I really feel like I've lost hope. We didn't fight again last night, but when I got home, she was just angry with me. She wanted to ask me a bunch of questions about some temptation situations I had been in before, and was asking questions in such an accusatory tone and manner that I know she either wasn't believing me, or didn't want to in order to justify or ease the blow for her own actions. She also was indignant at what I wrote to her in my letter yesterday. I tried to explain to her that I know she's not me, and I won't tell her what to do or how to react, but this is how I would react if the tables were turned, and that's what makes me so unhappy and angry sometimes, whether it's fair to ask it of her or not, it was just the way I feel, and I was expressing it to her. Instead of reading it that way, she took it that I was trying to dictate to her how she should feel and react. She only read it through her emotions, not how it was written. I came to the realization after those two conversations that her heart is not in this struggle.

I mean, I sort of knew it anyway. I've been writing about how I feel (my opinion) that she doesn't express well enough to me that she is remorseful and will do anything to get me back, like she said she would in the first week of this discovery period. Things that she knows are horrible irritants to me, like the couches on which she had sex with her lover. One of them is in the kids' play room (don't get me started on why they'd choose that venue, under photos of our family), and my children sit on it to play their video games. She knows that tears me apart. She told me she would get rid of the couches, but they're still there. She's always "too busy" to take care of it, or she "doesn't know how to get rid of them", even though I told her how to reach a demolition contractor who told me he'd come and pick them up for us. She only last night covered up the playroom couch with a sheet (for our Open Houses last weekend, I had to take off a sheet we had on it earlier) after four days of letting the kids keep sitting on it. If she really wanted to...REALLY wanted to, she could have gotten those couches out of there immediately. But she didn't really want to.

She also just really doesn't show me how sorry she is. Sure, she feels remorse. I know that. She cries and has bad days like me. She even tells me once in a while. She touches me and tells me she's sorry a lot...and I tell her that I need to hear that, whether it fixes anything or not, I still need to hear it constantly. And I know I'm trying to impose on her the character traits that I would express if I'd have made such a horrible mistake. I know I would literally do anything to keep her if the tables were turned. In fact, I recently found out a friend/coworker of mine had an affair and his wife caught him. We were talking about his remorse, and he stated that he knows how bad he feels about straying, and that he knows he has to take whatever his wife throws at him because he deserves it and he will do anything to save his marriage and his family. I even told him (without telling him why I knew) what his wife was going through, and that he truly needs to understand - at least continually acknowledge to her - that her pain is infinitely more profound than his at this point, and that he needs to do anything he can...EVERYTHING he can for her to prove to her that he wants it to work. Especially right now. He understood, agreed with me, and thanked me for being so strangely insightful.

That's the quality I don't see in my wife. But that's OK, because I'm not going to tell her how I think she should act anymore. I tried that earlier, and I know she's not me. I know she's reacting in her own manner. That's OK....it's just not OK for me, and I can't handle it anymore. Even though I know she's internally processing all this, that doesn't do me any good. I think it's time that it stopped being about her when it comes to showing me her sincerity, because that's what got her into this mess in the first place. That's what is driving me away. Especially when I come home and get the third degree with such an accusatory, angry tone. I didn't get mad at her for the first time. I was more dumbfounded that (it appears to me - my opinion) she's trying to find ways of easing her guilt by finding fault with me and not believing I could be faithful to her for 22 years. Maybe she's not thinking that at all, I don't know. It's just how it comes off to me (which I've communicated to her very clearly), and I can't stay around to deal with that.

I know she has to be her own person and heal the way that she has to, but she knows - because I've communicated it over and over - that I need reassurance because I'm the one who didn't have a choice in this matter. I'm the one who was violated. I'm the one who was damaged more severely...so I believe she should understand this. Whether she does or not, it doesn't show. She would probably say that whatever she does won't be good enough for me...she has said that to me before. Maybe that's true right now, maybe it's not. But not trying at all certainly isn't. For example, last week after a huge argument, we were trying to get civil with each other again...I explained to her that, maybe all it would take is once a day to hold my hands, look me in the eye and say, "I just want you to know that I'm still committed to you. I still love you and I want you back in my life and I'm trying and will continue to try every day to prove to you how sorry I am that I got lost, and how much I want you back in my life." She told me then that she would do that every day for me. She never did...not even once after that. She also brought me flowers once....remembered our wedding vows about how in difficult times we were to give a rose to our partner. It was a touching gesture. She bought me one rose for every month that she strayed, and said she would keep replenishing those roses to show me that she means it. She let them die. She threw them away and didn't replace them, because she was too busy to go get more - even to take 10 minutes and go to the 24 hour supermarket around the corner from us that has roses - and replace them. She finally did several days after the first batch died...after I asked her why she hadn't replaced them. I had to ask because that symbol of her commitment...that good faith gesture wasn't as important to her as it was to me. That's what I'm dealing with....that thought process. That lack of true commitment, which is obviously what started this mess. I keep hoping for a sign from her...and I truly get one once in a while, like the speech she gave me the first week, like the roses. But every time the promise falls flat, as if she has no interest in maintaining that promise. That can only come from indifference on her part, which I read somewhere on this site that indifference, not hate, is the opposite of love. That makes me so sad.

So, I'm looking for an apartment today. I'll start with a low cost, temporary "divorce" apartment at first...hoping to move in as early as Sunday if there's anything available. There appear to be a few in my area, so I can stay close for the kids. I still don't know how to break it to them. I'm going to ask our MC about that tonight. We need to keep it amicable for them, I know that. The trouble is - and I've said this before - I just have this feeling...the little voice that I'm trying not to ignore anymore is telling me that when I leave the house, it won't be temporarily. It'll be for good. It's the strongest feeling the little voice has ever given me - like when it told me that she shouldn't go to her parents' house - and it makes me horribly sad, because I don't want to go...I don't want to leave the kids, but I also don't want to leave her, because I miss her. I miss what we had...what we'll never have again. Even when I know we'll neveer have that again, I still miss the person with who I had it before. I even miss her when she's angry at me, because I've never really been without her for 22 years...even when I was away travelling, because I knew (at least, I thought) she still loved me, and thousands of miles couldn't break that bond we had...that feeling of togetherness...that whole feeling that we were one spirit together, even if we were apart. I could never have explained that before I lost it...but I knew it deep down. I truly, truly loved this woman. But that's why I know I have to leave now. I don't think she feels that bond anymore. It's obvious she didn't over the last year, but I just don't feel sincerity from her anymore in this reconciliation. At least, not the kind of sincerity that I need, I guess. It just feels like indifference. Otherwise, she would have proved it to me with a true commitment like she said she would do every day.

Sage, you asked me to try and understand my feelings...what my body is telling me. I have that feeling again, that inner calm. Maybe it's just profound sadness....maybe it's acceptance...I don't know. I've tried to keep hope alive....really, really tried. I'm sorry I'm not strong enough.

I was trying to keep my head up, Tex...I was taking pride in my strength to stay...my backbone. I feel I'm letting everyone down now, including myself...but especially my kids.

And Gary...your words of strength have helped me so much. I felt good when you told me you were proud of me for taking steps in the right direction. I feel like I'm letting you down too. I'm so sorry.

I don't want to be this sad.

A gentle reminder: there are 3 components to recovery after an affair - his - hers - and the marriage. And those 3 do not have the same time table...

What I am sensing coming from your W's actions and behaviors is she is not on the same page as you - and pushing and pulling her to your speed may not help at this time.

Don't do anything you are not ready for - no drastic decisions which could either back fire or really impede a movement towards healing.

You are in my thoughts

And as you walk you make your path Kat

Bob,

Kat's right on the money. It doesn't sound like y'all are on the same page yet.

If it were me , I'd toss the couches myself and go buy my own damn flowers. I know you want her to do it as a gesture of her williness to reconcile and to show she loves you but Bob, you gotta love yourself too buddy. If the couches are triggering you then get rid of them.

The only person I'm worried about you letting down is YOU... not anyone here or anywhere else for that matter.

One last thing...I'd bring up everything you wrote in this post(or print it out) to the MC. I would be interested in your W's responses as well as what the MC has to say.

Regards,

Tex

Bob,

Do I feel your pain? Yes I do! Am I trying to help you? Yes I am!
My intentions have been to keep you focused at a time when your NOT YOURSELF! Think before you act, do not always follow your emotions! I don't always feel like going to work or feel like being polite or feel like paying my bills but I do so, anyways! So, I'm asking you not to run on your feelings but consider the out come of leaving your wife. If you must get out, then go for a weekend trip by yourself but do not bail on your kids. Give it more time before you make a permanent step, OK?
There is so much I want to share with you Bob. You don't know how much our sitautions have in common, I know where your at! Trust me I do!

Gary

"She told me she would get rid of the couches, but they're still there. She's always "too busy" to take care of it, or she "doesn't know how to get rid of them", ...If she really wanted to...REALLY wanted to, she could have gotten those couches out of there immediately. But she didn't really want to."

You are having such a rough time, as all of us did in the beginning when we learned about an A and I know it is incredibly painful.

I wanted to touch on those couches. Your spouse is reading you say many times how you don't think your marriage will work and all that and she may be wondering if keeping those couches may be a good idea if you do separate. I don't know if they are decent or not but if they are, honestly why rid them if you will D anyway and need furniture for two homes.

I don't know if she's thought this but in her situation if I was the betrayer and thought you'd divorce me anyway, I probably would keep them until I knew things would work or at least going uphill instead of worse.

I also understand about being triggered with things like that and would want to get rid of my bed if it was that situation but what if every couch, bed, seat in the house had been used? Honestly, those are things that just aren't helpful to know about IMHO. My ex had driven OW around in his car and I wouldn't doubt they also messed around in it but I couldn't change my whole life because of her and decided I refused to. It gave OW more power than I wanted her to have. Regardless of the furniture in the house you will be triggered by memories anyway and until you start trying to think of other things to consume your mind, you will be triggered constantly. I've been there.

Charlie

So, we made it to MC last night without killing each other. Honestly, we are really, really pissed off at each other right now. Me for the obvious reasons, she because she doesn't think I listen, I'm in her face too much, and she doesn't think I'm sticking around because I want to make it work, but rather so I can have the upper hand, or prove myself right or superior in this matter.

Tex/Charlie/Kat/Gary, the first thing the MC said - after I gave him the printout of my post and explained what was going on and why I was so angry - was to tell my W that if she made a promise to do these things, she has to stick to it, no matter what she thinks about it later. She made a promise, and now she's breaking it again, which she can't do (because obviously there's some trust issues that she created here...DUH!!!). So, she agreed to get rid of the couches (although she says to me this morning, "I'll do it although I don't agree!", a dig she HAD to throw in to show she's not happy that it's not going HER way). OK, standby for what happens only two hours later after MC...

We also talked about separation, and I stated that I know if I have to leave, I'm starting divorce proceedings. There's no possible way in hell I'm leaving her in that house, next door to her lover. Whether anything would happen again or not, me being away would be the end all, and I wouldn't be able to take it...it's that simple. Our separation was the medium which allowed this A to happen in the first place. To me, separation is the LAST thing we need right now. So she was upset, because she wanted a separation. So I told her - in front of the MC - that if we're separating, she'll be the one leaving, not me...unless it's for good. She got upset because she thought she didn't have a say in this. The MC tried to explain to her that of course she did...she has her own choice she can make. It seems pretty clear to me that she just wanted me out of the house...bad!

So, back to the promises she made to me, which she of course broke, but which she promised again in the MC's office that she would keep. Three promises....Getting rid of the couches, keeping the roses alive, and holding my hands, looking me in the eye and telling me EVERY NIGHT that she's trying every day to win back my trust and respect and that she loves me and wants me back in her life.

So we get back from MC and are getting ready for bed...she's telling me how confused and upset she is, and I take her in my arms and kiss her on the lips for the first time since D-Day, in a show of good faith that I'm hoping we can work it out (hmmm, a sign of hope...standby for more on that). We go to bed, talk a little more....but - stupid me for wanting to believe again - the words of good faith that she promised (AGAIN) only two hours earlier that she would say, never came. She could tell I was getting upset and didn't have a clue as to why. When I finally had to tell her, she got all upset because she assumed our closeness earlier was good enough. But she promised only two hours earlier to say those very things to me every night (whether anyone thinks she should or shouldn't say them, it doesn't matter, because it was a promise that she made to me to prove her commitment, bottom line, and the MC agreed to that as well). In fact, I made another compromise with her in MC, in that if she was too pissed or confused to say those words, she could tell me that she can't be sincere in saying them tonight, but the sentiment is still there and she still wants it to work out....but she has to say it for me to believe it. She agreed, and the MC thought it was a fair compromise. Well, she didn't even do that much. She cared SO little for me...disrespects me SO much, that she figured she could twist it around to doing it HER way once again. HER way....the very thing that got us into this mess in the first place...HER way...the way SHE wants it to go...HER thought process. Wouldn't you think that even a confused person in this mess would be smart enough to figure out that manipulating every situation to work it out in HER favor is maybe not the right thing to do right now? She continues to prove that she doesn't care. It couldn't have been more clearly stated or agreed to as it was in MC only two hours earlier....there was nothing arbitrary about what she promised. But then she has the nerve to say to me, "I'm supposed to say that EVERY night?" I can't believe how stupid I am to even be surprised at that! She's so wrapped up in herself that she literally CAN'T see what destruction she's causing.

Afterwards - amazingly - she realizes that she's just made another horrible mistake and apologizes to me. Sincerely apologizes. But by that time, I'd had enough. I wondered out loud how many times I have to be disrespected by this person before I get the balls to not subject myself to this abuse anymore. She has the nerve to tell me that she might be able to bring herself to being sincere if I could only give her some hope that I really want to work this out. SHE shatters all my dreams, all my faith, all my respect, our past, present and possibly future...all my hope, and continues to grind it into the ground by not keeping promises, and SHE wants me to show HER hope that I'm trying to keep the relationship alive. Of course, she conveniently forgot that I hugged and kissed her earlier! And then she has the nerve to wonder why I went to sleep angry when she apologized for doing that again to me. As if "I'm sorry" makes it alllllllll go away! After all the trust issues she's caused!! I can never have hope if this relationship continues to be all about HER....the way SHE wants it to be, with no compromises. Promises kept HER way, not necessarily the way she promised them. Making things better because SHE apologized and that just erases the disrespect she showed me in doing it in the first place. Wanting me to leave the house on a separation because SHE needs to clear HER head. Give me one frickin' break!

Now she keeps saying this morning that I'm not sincere in wanting to make it work. She keeps getting pissed at me for being upset for continually being betrayed, because "I'm sorry" should keep me from being upset. She's convinced that I just keep getting upset and am sticking around so I can prove myself "right", not because I'm sincere in wanting to make it work. HOLY CRAP, what a twisted, dellusional, selfish thought process this person has, and she only gets more and more pissed....it just keeps spiralling into bitterness, which she refuses to step back and look at. Of course I don't help matters when I get pissed back, but OMG, I will not be disrespected by her anymore!

What the hell am I taking this abuse for? Well, I'm not going to anymore. I'm through disrespecting myself and compromising my integrity. If she wants to leave the house, then go! If she doesn't want to carry through with her promises, don't! If she's not sincere about her remorse, then stop apologizing! If she wants to continue to disrespect me, then she can do it all by herself for the rest of her life!

She thinks I'm not sincere in wanting to work things out. If she were to stop for one minute and look around her selective memory, she would understand that I'm still here, after the most horrific event in my life - which she caused - and I've been trying...even through the fits of rage and sniping, there have been very many moments of tenderness and dare I say love directed at her. What the hell would I be doing sticking around and sleeping in the same bed if I didn't still have hope that the woman I loved for 22 years and I could work it out? She shows me even more disrespect by thinking I would be that stupid!

She just can't get past her bitterness to want to understand. She's convinced herself that I only want to torture her, when in actuality, she's the one who has tortured me, but I once loved her enough to stick around to try to love her again. Why would I stick around to destroy us? I'm a successful, attractive, healthy man who could EASILY find someone who hasn't tortured me. I could cut and run in a second, like 80% of men do who are betrayed. But I haven't, and she absolutely refuses to look past her anger/confusion/whatever to understand that I wouldn't subject myself to this if I didn't still have some sort of spark for her. Somehow, she doesn't WANT to believe that I still like her, even love her...even though I hate her and don't respect her right now...RIGHT NOW, not forever (hopefully). She absolutely HAS to be right about this in order to justify and sustain her anger.

I swear, you'd think I married a MAN, wouldn't you?


So, just after I finish writing this and am about to hit the "respond" button, she called me to apologize "for being such a butthead", and to give me an update on getting rid of the couches. I thanked her for the gesture...I could tell she was sincere.

Damn, can I please get off this roller coaster? I'm about to hurl!!!

Bob-

It can take a lot of head-banging, fighting, apologies, sleepless nights, and introspection to work through the agony of an affair. Oh yeah I forgot, TIME it can take years to deal with it. For me it was at least five years for the mud to settle.
It takes the patience of Job to work through the daily shit of affair recovery. And even then, that is no guarantee that the marriage will work out in the end.


The only advice I can offer is to take care of yourself, do what you need to do in the moment to survive: laugh, cry, run, dance, write, kiss a baby, do 5,000 sit-ups, eat gourmet ice-cream drizzled with melted Belgian chocolate- whatever!

Take a deep breath and know that your life will improve over time.

I know dealing with an A sucks, my 25 year marriage to the love of my life is over. Grief still grips my heart at times, but I have survived and my life is fine.

I wish you all the best and I hope you and your wife can find your way back to an honest, loving marriage.

TLMM

Bob...I don't know who is more upset....me after reading this or you for having lived it. You are right, this is a roller coaster....you both are at such a delicate cross roads right now....you both are in such pain....it almost sounds like you two are competing for the "who's in the most pain award".......I have one comment that has come up for me while reading this..what is it that you W needs from you? You describe the three things that she has agreed to do, what is it that you need to do? I am not sure that I have read any references to this. I agree that she needs to agree to adbide by what you have requested and she is not doing it. I am wondering what is holding her back from doing it? Could she honestly say that she forgot? The reading your mind stuff doesn't get it....WHAT IS HOLDING HER BACK? Have the two of you talked about what she needs from you? I realize that you would probably respond that you don't really owe her anything...she is the obvious one who needs to be doing the crawling and attending...but it sounds like she is, at some level, resentful that she has to do these things. I wonder what is going on in her head. Maybe she is continuing to become retraumatized as she realizes the "fall out" from all of this. Having to get rid of two pieces of furniture (I can fully understand why)the possibility of having to leave her home, the decreased contact with the children if she had to move out, how your relationship will be with her if that happens.....that is overwhelming at some level....I think she is as overwhelmed as you are....BUT that does not negate the fact that she made a choice about the marriage that resulted int he loss of trust and faith on your part...she needs to focus on regaining that from you and reassuring YOU that this is what she wants....does she still want the marriage? Is she being upfront with that? I've never been a good liar...it is just not part of my fabric, but I think that some people can withhold the truth better than others. In light of her behavior and activities the past year, maybe she is not telling you all of what you need to hear...which is the truth. Even if she has to admit that she doesn't know what she wants. You are expecting her to act according to what she has said to you assuming it is the truth...perhaps it is not the truth. Her truth and belief may not be all of what she really is saying to you...she might be omitting some of the information...I don't know.

I wish you some peace of mind. I continue to awaken every morning with my gut in pieces....I await the moment of clarity and peace that I so long to experience. I hope that comes for you....I still think the two of you need to get away from the house....drop the kids off at grandparents or friends and travel north for an hour and stay in a nice motel....just be with each other and try to talk? MIght that help? You both are so volatile that you can't do it now....I don't know. I am thinking about you and hope you can find a moment of peace and solitude.

Sage

Sage

I think you've really hit on something important.

Bob
I don't at all mean to offend but want to tell you straight-up how I would feel. I know how hard it is, but your messages on here seem harsh and like they are full of tons of anger and I wonder how much of that you are projecting onto your W. Do you talk to her with the same tone as you post? I could be wrong but it may be hard for her to give you what you need if all she is getting is anger. What does she need to start healing too? It sucks that the betrayed have to work at it too but in the marriages that truly are successful after an A, both are working hard to make things work.

I think one of the biggest worries for me would be the affect the little bit of physical abuse could have had on your W and how she still may feel about that. I also know how badly it hurts and understand if she made promises that she should keep them for the other stuff.

"looking me in the eye and telling me EVERY NIGHT that she's trying every day to win back my trust and respect and that she loves me and wants me back in her life."

I asked my ex to do the exact same thing and understand how important that is to hear it all the time but how can she say it and mean it if you are yelling at her a lot? She may feel fake saying it when she is also angry at you. I also had a BIG problem with him (ex) not being able to do that because to me, it seemed so darned easy to do and I was not yelling and showing a whole lot of anger - some anger, I agree is very normal and expected. I'm with you on the fact that they should at least be able to tell you they care and are sorry every day for their mistake. My ex also promised to do it and every time he made that promise he would do it only one day and then quit. Personally, (I know your feelings are different) I wouldn't care about roses but I do understand that is something you two discussed much earlier on and it means something to you so it certainly would make things easy for you if she did it.

Charlie

Howdy Bob,

The message I'm getting from your wife is she is afraid you are gonna leave whatever she does.
Just a suggestion here but how about y'all giving your marriage reconciliation a time limit(say 6 months). You both agree to commit doing the best you can and then re-evaluate after that time. It'll help take the pressure off when things are highly charged knowing that no-one is gonna walk out the door permanently.

It would be so easy for me to say all the things you probably want to hear. "She screwed up". "She should fix this"...all those things I'm sure alot of us thought early on. Emotionally that may be true, but realistically its not. It takes one person to screw up a marriage but 2 people to fix it.

What do you think...would a time limit be worthy of consideration?

Just my 2 cents...

Regards,

Tex

Bob

I went through something very similar with my X. There were a few days when I thought that she sincerely wanted to make our marriage work but most of the time, I was getting very mixed signals. At the time, I wasn't sure that the signals were mixed. I thought that it was probably just me. I thought that my mind had been so completely bumfuzzled that I wasn't able to accurately read signals any more, especially signals from her.

To be honest, she took every opportunity to try to convince me that the problem was with me. I was self-righteous, too angry, not forgiving enough, controlling, not dedicated to our marriage, I was trying to punish her, etc. The way I saw it, each of her accusations had enough truth in it to make me take a serious look at my own role in our marital difficulties. Besides, it couldn't possibly be all her fault. I couldn't change her. I needed to focus on me. After almost three years of that, I gave up.

On the advice of marriage counselors, she would agree to do certain things but then they would never happen. Whenever I mentioned these things, a terrible argument would result.

On one occasion (I will never forget it), a coupla months after d-day, she was in the kitchen and I was in our bedroom reading "The Monogamy Myth". When she came into the bedroom, I put the book down. She asked me what I was reading and I grunted something vague in response. She persisted and so I told her the truth. She became very angry and accused me of trying to punish her. The following week, when we visited our marriage counselor, she described this episode and repeated her accusation. The marriage counselor told me that it was cruel to read a book like that where my (then) wife could see what I was reading. According to the marriage counselor, books like that should only be read at work or some other place where my (then) wife wouldn't know).

Three years later I discovered that my X's affair had been continuing at that time (she let it slip accidentally). In other words, she had been covering her tracks by keeping me on the hook. It was brilliant - accuse me of punishing her while she continued her affair. And it worked. I was far too busy doubting myself to figure out that the affair was still going on.

Looking back on that time now, I realize that my (then) wife knew exactly what she was doing. The accusations and arguments and the mixed signals and her anger and the continued dishonesty were not accidents. They kept me at a distance. It all worked quite well for her for almost three years. By the time I got tired of the game and started to see things as they really were (instead of the way that I hoped they were), it was far too late to reconcile. Far too much damage had been done. There was no way that I could ever live with someone who had been so cunningly deceptive.

TLMM wrote >>The only advice I can offer is to take care of yourself, do what you need to do in the moment to survive<<

There are years of hard-won wisdom in TLMM's post to you. I wish I could explain how wonderful her post is.

Your wife is playing a very dangerous game with you. I'm sure that, like me, you have plenty of faults but I'm also sure that you will be reminded of them, especially when you begin to get close to the truth. Know that you are in the middle of a crazy-making time but you are not crazy. Your anger is telling you something important. Listen to it. It is a very, very hard thing to do but you are the only one who can stop playing the game.

As TLMM says ... things WILL get better for you.

Quinn

You're correct Sage & Charlie, she's pissed at me for some good reasons (and some bad ones, IMO), and there are things she's asked of me....

I've made no secret that I can be a real bastard when I'm pissed off, but nothing like I can be when I'm damaged to the core like this. I have a big, booming voice to go along with a physically intimidating size, stature and countenance, an ability to argue eloquently, loudly and quickly so that a person can't get a word in edgewise, and a vengeful, acid streak coursing through my veins that turns words into razor blades as they exit my mouth. Lately, I'm easily angered and frustrated (I wonder why!) and I have a tendency to snipe, jab, and hurl insults like dice at a craps table when provoked. So much so, that I can fluster my W so much that she doesn't know which way is up or what color the sky is in her world. I also have a tendency to interrupt (imagine that!), and not want to listen as a result of that. Yes, those might be reasons to be pissed at me. Ya think? The bad reasons for being pissed at me....well, she'll have to work those out on her own, because I honestly believe - IMO - that she's still trying to make me the bad guy to a certain extent in order to ease her own guilt. And I'm certainly giving her fodder to continue doing that with the REAL reasons to be pissed at me. But we'll get into that in later counselling sessions.

This short fuse and brutal arguing method of mine was brought up in our first MC session, and I've acknowledged it and have seriously been working on curbing those tendencies. It has worked a LOT, believe it or not (she would laugh at that statement, I'm sure)...but it doesn't work all the time. Especially in the last couple of days. The results of her continued "mini-betrayals" (not keeping her promises) - apart from the BIG issue - has me so angry and frustrated at her that all of the governors in my head that maintain my sensibility get snuffed like a mob informant and I fly off the handle. But she has the balls to get back in my face and do the same thing to me, so it just turns into a destructive, angry category five hurricane of an argument amongst two gigantic buttheads. It's quite destructive, and leaves a horrible aftermath. I maintain that there's a chicken and egg thing going on here, that she started this whole thing and the "mini betrayals" that follow come as a result of my increasing frustration, so she fights back in one way or another until it's self-perpetuating....like nuclear fusion.

And to answer the question you're thinking (there I go assuming again), yes, I absolutely do understand and can see why she gets so angry, how this type of arguing can happen, and how difficult it is to get out of it. Especially since we are both SUCH buttheads, that neither one of us wants to give in. Obviously, we both have something to work on if we want to make this work. I still maintain the Captain Butthead stance that she started this whole thing by her choice (I'm not talking about what may or may not have been wrong with the marriage to begin with, but the act of crossing the line that was solely her choice), so if she's sincere about her remorse and if she wants me back, SHE has to be the one who works harder at the repair because SHE inflicted the damage. SHE has to be the one who takes responsibility for the fact that we're even fighting like this in the first place. I don't think she denies this, but right now she is SO flustered and angry that she refuses to acknowledge it.

I've also been asking what she wants from me...what I can do to placate her. Sometimes I get an angry "I don't know!", but lately I've been getting, "Just please listen to me." This is where the self-perpetuating thing comes in with me getting frustrated so much that I can't listen, which in turn shuts her off or sets her off, which in turn pisses me off, and so on. So, I know I need to listen to her. I know I've inflicted damage...not just lately, but before this whole thing started, which has been coming out little by little.

I've also agreed to try and curb the sniping. I really have curbed a lot of it....really. I won't make any excuses for why I keep doing it when things get ugly...I know it's wrong. The harsh truth to the matter is that I want to inflict pain on her when I get so angry. I want her to feel an iota of the pain that's been inflicted on me. I know it's wrong and I'm trying to fix it...enough said.

The other things I'm trying to do, but didn't promise her or even discuss with her....not stay so late at work....put my dishes away....re-establish the other half of the parenting responsibilities now that I'm back...actually talk to her on the phone (difficult lately because I'm so pissed and hurt). I even ordered a cell phone today and upped our collective minutes so - in case this does work out - we can have better communication.

So, I do have promises to keep ("and miles to go before I sleep")...and I really am trying, because I do want to keep hope alive, as much as she thinks I don't. Like you've all been saying, time will help us heal...but it's also one of our biggest enemies right now. I know there's no quick fix. No quick resolution or forgiveness...if EVER. I know my anger & pain and reactions to them are typical. I know it's not easy. It sure isn't easy. Damn this whole stupid mess to hell!

I hadn't thought about a time limit, Tex. Frankly because I'm truly one foot out the door, and I'm not sure I could agree to it. I know what you're trying to tell me....don't make any rash decisions, and the time limit will show her that I won't bail at any given time. I'll think on that one for a while. I promise.

Quinn, I just read your post before hitting "Respond", and it's giving me the chills. Those things you describe that you were accused of are exactly what I'm being accused of. You can see by the paragraphs above that I'm evaluating my faults. She says I insult her by even intimating that she would come near him again or even try to contact him. She swears that I know everything, but the little voice keeps telling me I don't really. Of course I want to believe her, but of course there's no possible way I can....but that pisses her off even more. The flawless perfection in which she deceived me was frightening, and your words bring back the memory of that realization. I understand what you're telling me. I won't forget. Thank you.

Like Q, I had a flashback when I read your original post about MC and the (broken-again) promises. It was very hard for me to read, because I went through the same sort of stuff.

Some years back Q and I developed a code for this. We called it "down the rabbithole" or "through the looking-glass". This post, Q called it "crazymaking". Whatever you call it, it will (if it hasn't already) kill your feelings for your wife. And it probably won't stop, because she suceeds in dealing that way: she makes you crazy and pushes you away, justifying her withdrawal from you. It's sick, twisted "logic".

I would suggest from my experience that your anger with the crazymaking stuff is cumulative. That is, each time she triggers you by making crazy, it isn't the first time it has happened...and it's never resolved...so your anger just keeps building. On top of that, she doesn't do the very things you've told her you need for your anger to start diminishing...not doing them is part of the crazymaking she is doing. It is hard for me to think that it's not deliberate damage being inflicted as part of some hidden agenda.

With due respect to Charlie's suggestion that you may be turning her off by being angry...I understand that anger exactly. In my experience, there's no way to get rid of it until you separate. Until you've lived with someone who is making you crazy as you've described, you just can't understand what it does to you. And you can only end the suffering by eliminating or minimizing contact.

Bob, I would say something Q said even more strongly: you are not the cause of this. Stop looking inside yourself, stop "admitting" that you may do some things wrong. You are married (in my reading of your posts) to someone very similar to my ex-wife: someone who will take what you own up to in good faith and then turn around and use it against you...without ever admitting that she does anything wrong or hurtful.

I would suggest this course: expect nothing. Demand nothing. Agree to nothing. Accept that your relationship is deeply flawed, and maybe unfixable, and stop trying. (For more on this, see Deborah Weiner-Davis' book "Divorce Busting". She calls it "doing a 180"; around here we would call it "detaching".)

And now the three most famous words on these forums:

Focus on Bob. Let your wife focus on herself.

Good luck, stay strong.

Chris.

Chris and Q

I'd be very curious if our own GT here had displayed a few of the symptoms that Bob's wife had back when this happened to her? Did she do all the things her H originally asked of her? We all know she has "gotten it" in a big way since, she's been very remorseful, and fixed any things that she had done wrong.

Would you give the same advice to GT's husband? GT, maybe you can answer, on the OPEN board, if your H ever yelled much at you and how you responded in the early days of the A discovery if he did? It could be that you both handled it far better than most or it could be that you just dealt with any screaming or yelling realizing that you were at fault for it and eventually it subsided. I guess what I'm asking is: Do marriages work after an A when the betrayed spouse displays a great deal of anger toward toward the betrayer? I do realize it is normal to display some anger about what happened. I don't think you'd be human if you didn't. Kat? Cory?

I guess I am the type that likes to give someone a chance while their head is still in the sand but if the behavior continues than dump them out the door. I feel at least I tried and put in a good effort even if he kept on lying. I also know it was the "right" choice for me that we ended our marriage.

Chris and Q

After just a couple weeks post D-day like Bob, is it possible that you could have regreted a decision to divorce later on because you didn't know if the relationship was reconcilable or not? I mean if you had ended it right then? Can you honestly answer that if you didn't go through what you did already, you would have dumped them right away? The majority of us didn't dump them right away and some made it work afterward. After just a few weeks would there possibly be a doubt later that you could have worked it out? Would it be bad to have that doubt?

The questions above are sort of like someone that hasn't been betrayed saying to a newly betrayed person that they would leave the cheater if it was them. How do they know if they hadn't experienced it?

Chris, I'm wondering if you've forgotten that my ex DID act the way your and Q's ex's did back then. The only difference is that I wasn't in my relationship quite as long as either of you after the A. I guess I tired quickly of it and you all helped me realize how nuts he was too. You don't have to be female to do the "crazymaking" stuff. My ex always turned everything around on me as well while he was pushing me away with bad behavior. I remember how those broken promises hurt too.

What if Bob's W turns out like some of the former betrayers who do really "get it?"

I guess I really do struggle because if his W is a lot like my ex and plans to continue lying, I really would think he'd be better of kicking her to the curb now. I also believe that if he doesn't give her a fighting chance by trying to reconcile first with both being rational and not screaming at each other, how will he ever know if he made the right choice by leaving?

I just wouldn't want him to regret it later. I guess that is all I'm saying. Sorry about the novel.

Charlie

Charlie,

I got from Bob's post that he is like me in one important regard: he's a "don't look back" sort of guy.

My main regret now is that I stuck with it sooo long. Way too long for my own well-being. It is so clear in retrospect that things were the way they were for a long time. It is not an understatement to say that it was a mistake ever to have married the person I married. (And before anyone reminds me that I have two good kids, I'd have had good kids no matter what!)

Look, people don't fundamentally change who they are unless forced. Being nice, being accommodating, hiding the anger...all those things will lead someone to believe that she's off the hook. Being angry, setting firm boundaries...those convey exactly where things need to go. How long anyone waits for it is his own choice, but I'd counsel most people (based on my experience) not to wait around too long.

Chris.

Chris

I'm not saying he should hide his anger, believe me I know that isn't good, there are more constructive ways to get anger out sometimes. I was talking about taking a great deal of anger out on your spouse - I mean being hurtful and saying lots of stuff you wouldn't normally.

"Being nice, being accommodating, hiding the anger...all those things will lead someone to believe that she's off the hook."

I never said you had to be nice I certainly wouldn't say I was "nice" back then. If you are very angry though and when some of that anger turns into physical violence, I can't see how someone would "want" to even make things work. It seems it would give justification more than anything as to why you had an A. If you carry that much anger, why even "try" to work on the marriage at all? What's the point?

I agree that you have to set boundaries and it sounds like Bob has.

Chris

"but I'd counsel most people (based on my experience) not to wait around too long."

If you could go back in time with your ex, how long would you have waited to see if she came out of this crazy thinking? What is your opinion?

Charlie

<<<Frankly because I'm truly one foot out the door>>>

<<<We also talked about separation, and I stated that I know if I have to leave, I'm starting divorce proceedings>>>

<<<So she was upset, because she wanted a separation. So I told her - in front of the MC - that if we're separating, she'll be the one leaving, not me...unless it's for good.>>>

<<< It seems pretty clear to me that she just wanted me out of the house...bad!>>>

Bob, perhaps a break is needed to give you both a chance to regroup and think about if you both are committed to trying to save the marriage or not. I don't mean break as in leave but to decide what you really deep in your heart want. The same for your wife. If you BOTH aren't 100% committed its not going to work.

We all say things when we're in an emotional state. Some things we mean and some things we don't. However our spouse doesn't know the difference.

My point is, as either Q or Chris mentioned, you need to spend time taking care of you. Give yourself a break and find that part inside you that will help you determine what you truly want your future to be.

Regards,

Tex

Bob...I think you are a frustrated lawyer....you need to go to law school, especially in light of your astute linguistic abilities. As I read these posts I am even more confused than ever. How does one truly know what to do? What is the one thing for sure in life that we can count on? That we never can count on anything...some of the things we didn't expect will happen, some of the things we did expect will happen. Some of the things we didn't expect will not happen....yadayada
How does one handle those "unexpected" things? One of myt favorite sayings is:

If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always gotten.

That means that some changes need to occur. How long will you and you W allow this stuff to go on? It obviously isn't working....do something different. The suggestion about not trying to do anything now is great advice. Why do you have to make up your mind about anything now? What is good in your life now that is bringing you pleasure? If it IS work, stay at work. If she needs to become more reflective and closed, let her do it. One thing I am not sure of...Bob, does your wife want the marriage? I don't think I can recall reading anything about that. And, does she know for sure? What is it, I wonder that she got from the OM that she wasn't getting from you? In retrospect, could she have gotten that from you had she asked? Does she even know? Something else that came to my mind....maybe she is doing soem of these things subconsciously.....she wants you to be angry at her because at some level she deserves it. Could she be "passive aggressive" in order to get you angry so that she gets what she deserves? I don't know. I like to think that I don't do anything at the "subconscious" level (RIGHT0 but I think we all do. She has sinned....she knows it.....she knows what she has done, maybe this is her penance. Who knows. I thought of an exercise that you might try.....Get your W and stand in front of her...facing her....put as much distance between the two of your as you and she feel comfortable with.....look at each other and pay attention to what comes up for YOU and talk about it (I feel a flood of anger, I want to hug you....just pay attention to what comes up....tell her....follow through with it iif it is appropriate and if she gives you permission to do it)...Trade places....allow her to verbalize what comes up for her. I am just curious what would happen? Would you both just want to hug each other to death? Would one of you want to turn your back? Would one of you want to run out of the room? I still maintain that our bodies speak louder than our minds....FYI

Sage

Main Entry: epiph·a·ny
Pronunciation: i-'pi-f&-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
3 a (1) : a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential nature or meaning of something (2) : an intuitive grasp of reality through something (as an event) usually simple and striking (3) : an illuminating discovery b : a revealing scene or moment

Yesterday, while I was at work, I got a call from my wife. We had left each other that morning from a horrible, bitter sniping incident. So bad that I could tell it affected the children, becaue they had gathered downstairs and turned the TV volume up really high so they wouldn't have to hear us screaming at each other.

So she calls me, and I'm expecting some sort of jab or cold statement...but she was very calm and quiet. "I just wanted to call you and tell you that I love you and I'm sorry for being such a butthead....that's all." Strange....what brought this on, I wondered.

When I came home, we ate dinner and the four of us hung out in the playroom until the kids went to bed. From my realization of what everyone was telling me in the last few posts above, I wanted to talk to her about what she was still hiding. Instead, she wanted to do the talking. She said she had a lot of time to think at work today, all by herself with no interruptions. She had called her sister on the way to work...so furious at me that her sister's first reaction was, "Wow...well, maybe you should contact a lawyer." But she also left her with the statement, "Well, the reality of this situation is, you're the one who screwed things up."

I'm not sure if that's what it took, or just the fact that she had a few hours to herself without me in her face....maybe both....but she told me last night that she had a moment of clarity....an epiphany. She suddenly realized that she was being angry because she was just continuing to be selfish. She looked back over the last several years and started to realize that she has indeed manipulated things to go her way only. That she had lost touch with what is important and got wrapped up in herself. She then told me that she thought about our situation, separated herself from her selfishness and asked herself what she truly wanted (just like Tex suggested, but she did it on her own)...and she realized what a fool she was being. She realized that she created this monster, and that she had to take responsibility for it, and take responsibility for trying to fix it....that her anger was only there as a device to cover up her responsibility so she could continue to be more selfish.

She went on to tell me that she realizes how much she loves me, and how horrible it would be to lose me...that the last 22 years with me are what defined her as a person. She said she realized that it's important to her to try her best to make things better, if never right again, because she knows she would regret it for the rest of her life if she didn't do everything in her power to atone for what she had done and try her hardest to win back my trust, respect and maybe even love.

There was a lot more to it than that....every word seemed to be heartfelt and sincere. I was dumbfounded....this wasn't what I was expecting. I was gearing up for another round of disrespect and sniping. I told her that in 22 years of being together, I've never, ever heard her be so eloquent, clear....and real. She told me that it was because it came from her heart, and it was because she came to the realization herself. I asked her - again - if there was anything else she needed to tell me. She swears I know everything. I talked with her about the recent posts, and that her behavior made it seem like she was hiding something. She told me that her behaviour was a result of wanting to cover up the fact that she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions.....that she has told me everything and she's so very, very sorry for it, but she knows that only her actions can prove that, not her words.

So here I am...mouth agape...confused...amazed...impressed...hopeful. Not exactly sure what to think or what to believe, but I know that if she really means it, she certainly got off on the right foot.

It was nice to fall asleep last night in a mood other than angry or hateful, I can tell you that.

Bob,

I think that's great. It sounds hopeful.

Keep your balance.

We can't go from big damage to big repair quickly or easily. It's so complicated.

I had the horror days and the big breakthrough times as well.

Yep. He had epiphanies.

My turn....My turn....I want one. Wow...Bob...there is a God. See? You didn't even have to ask for that. I can imagine your warm feeling as you climbed into bed feeling a bit more relaxed and hopeful...best of luck.

Sage

>>She suddenly realized that she was being angry because she was just continuing to be selfish ... her anger was only there as a device to cover up her responsibility so she could continue to be more selfish ... She told me that her behaviour was a result of wanting to cover up the fact that she didn't want to take responsibility for her actions ..... <<

Wow, Bob. That's wonderful. What a heeyoooge breakthrough for your W. She's showing you something very special - some kind of enormous inner strength. I truly hope that the two of you can build on it.

>>charlie wrote: I'd be very curious if our own GT here had displayed a few of the symptoms that Bob's wife had back when this happened to her?

I'll let GT answer that.

charlie wrote >>Would you give the same advice to GT's husband?<<

Absolutely. Yes. Except that I suspect GT's h is already knows. I suspect that he was able to stop himself from engaging in mind games at least part of the time. I'm guessing that was part of the reason that GT had enough time and space to figure out whether she wanted to "pull her head out of the sand". I'd bet cash money that GT would be the first to tell you that her h is a pretty amazing guy. It takes two to make it work, as they say.

>>After just a couple weeks post D-day like Bob, is it possible that you could have regreted a decision to divorce later on because you didn't know if the relationship was reconcilable or not?<<

Perhaps I should have given direct advice instead of describing my experience "down the rabbit hole". I wasn't recommending divorce. Divorce is a very bad idea. I hope I wouldn't recommend divorce to anyone. But I was trying to suggest disengaging from crazy-making mind games. I believe that Bob's anger was/is a very important signal that something is out of whack. Whether to continue engaging in those nutsy mind games is a choice that a BS (and a WS) must make on their own.

My hat is off to Bob for being so open and honest about his thoughts, feelings, and actions. My sense is that Bob is Bob's harshest critic. I was hoping to write something that  might help him cut himself some slack.

I understand that Q, even after two glasses of wine tonight There's always been an awful lot of wisdom in your posts. I, in some ways, always have a hard time encouraging someone to keep at their relationship after I realize they are going through some of the things I did with my ex - he never did "get his head out of the sand" but it sure seemed like it for a while. I don't think it was because he was a bad person though, I think he just didn't want to have to go and admit all that stuff to an addictions C and also knew he couldn't fix it himself. I have realized though, from this site, that some do pull out of it. I guess I've just always been an optimist and it isn't going to ever go away.

Hope you stay this course Bob and Bob's W

Charlie

Hi Bob,

I'm was glad to read that you and your wife had a chance to regain some calm to the marriage. I couldn't tell you how many times my wife and I had knock down drags out in the beginning. It's complicated, there are so many emotions that rush to the surface. I found that my anger began to get in the way of our healing, this is why I suggested that you find some sort of outlet instead of your wife. There are times that you will need to "draw a line" in the sand with rules between each other but the anger issues can start to drive a wedge between each other and take it's toll on you as well. I was lucky that my oldest son and I had been involved with martial arts, before my D-day, thus allowing me the chance to vent 2 or 3 times per week. (It was a life saver!)
Remember when I said that given time, your wife will realize and underatnd what she has done.

Take care,
Gary

Thanks folks. Yes, we're trying to stay the course, and yes I understood that my anger was well founded and was telling me something. I hope this new turn in her willingness to understand and sincere remorse for what she's done will remain consistent. We've had a few minor setbacks, like when she continues to "interpret" how she fulfills the promises she made. We had some discussion about that (OK, another fight...the difference this time though, was that she didn't go into it or come out of it angry at me for the wrong reasons), and I think she's finally realizing that her interpretations are just another manifestation of the selfishness inside her that has to manipulate things to go her way when they get less than perfect for her. I stayed the course and explained that she has to realize that every manipulation like that - no matter how small - is not just "about her" or "not about me" (like the A itself), but also is another show of disrespect to me, which I will not tolerate, bottom line.

So, we had a truly fantastic day yesterday (after we got over the "interpretation night" the night before). She got a charity to come pick up the couches, and - although I was pissed that more than a thousand dollars worth of really nice furniture, which I really loved, was just going away - I felt like the house had finally been cleansed of the filthy aftermath of their sex, and I (knowingly) and my children (unknowingly) no longer had to be subjected to the venues of her indiscretions. It was like the elephant stopped putting all his weight on the foot he had on my chest for the first time in a long time.

I caught her later in the morning having a small breakdown of sorts. She had seen OM and his family out the window and she realized that they are showing no signs of being affected by all this (although, they are, of course). She told me she didn't expect me to understand, but she said it wasn't fair that we have to sell our house and get rid of our furniture and go through all this turmoil, when it appears as if his W will take him back and they will continue to live in the neighborhood with our other friends who we have to leave, sit on their couches on which they had sex, and no real hardship will befall him. As if it's practically acceptable and almost expected for the man to have an A, but she gets punished for doing it by virtue (or curse?) of being a woman. I'm still trying to figure out how to interpret this. I understand the sexism aspect of it, but that's only a surface issue, I think. Upon further contemplation, it still sounds like she's being selfish...that she can't focus on the fact that she is responsible for this issue in OUR household, and that whatever goes on over there should not only NOT be her concern, but she should put out of her mind that "over there" even exists in her world anymore. I mean, if you want to talk about "fair", she threw fairness right out the window when she stepped over the edge and had sex with someone other than her husband, and she gave up her rights to "fair" when she decided to take that step. This one upset me quite a bit, because it proves she's still thinking about him and their relationship, which pushes me away further and acts to diminish hope. I didn't express to her that it upset me...I should have, I guess...but I didn't want her to stop being honest with me. Nor did I want to ruin a positive day.

So, later we went driving, in order to get away from the house during the Realtor's Open House at our place (and just to get the hell out of there for obvious reasons). We went looking at houses....drove down a street we never would have thought to drive down on a whim, and found a house that all four of us fell in love with. It's on the completely opposite end of town, is fairly new and beautiful and felt like home the minute we walked into it. Now mind you, I've been waffling back and forth as to whether I think we should buy a house or not, because I truly have been teetering on the edge of severing this whole mess. But when I was in this house, and my thoughts went to positive images of our family starting anew in this house, keeping us happy and safe and comfortable...I realized that the pain I was suffering subsided a little. Maybe even more than a little...and I thought that, if there's a chance in hell that she & I can make it work, it will HAVE to be in a place that we are committed to...a place that makes us happy again, away from the cancer and memory of that horrible previous year in that neighborhood that I loved so much...but she loved too much. So we put an offer on the house, and are walking it again with our Realtor today.

We went to bed scared, excited and genuinely positive about the future. We had a minor setback as we were ending the day. I was trying to touch her and show her some affection, but she was getting so wrapped up in talking about her job (a source of confidence for her, but pain for me, because it was truly the reason I didn't ask her to relocate overseas with me, thus setting up the opportunity, the "medium" for the A...and it kills me to think about it) and in the middle of her talking while I was touching her, she unconsciously pushed my hand away. I wondered if this was a mistake, so I tried again & she did it again. Fortunately, I'm learning to communicate my thoughts and feelings to her much more clearly than before (so I don't hold them in and have a blowout with her later), so I told her that rejection like this was the LAST thing we both needed, and she said she didn't even realize what she had done. Didn't even remember it....but I think she realized the pattern of whatever it was...selfishness, complacency with our relationship (before the shattering of her fantasy) as if she'd gotten too relaxed and fallen back into a pattern, whatever, and was truly remorseful about it and told me that she understands she needs to be more consious and aware of her actions, because this is a very sensitive time and she doesn't want to make any more mistakes.

So, you're SO right Red Wolf. It's obvious that reparation is not quick or easy...but at least it feels like it's no longer impossible, and the roller coaster feels like it may be slowing down just a little bit. It was nice to go to work not hating her today. That's a good sign, right?.

Bob wrote >>... I stayed the course ... It was like the elephant stopped putting all his weight on the foot he had on my chest ... It's obvious that reparation is not quick or easy ... but at least it feels like it's no longer impossible, and the roller coaster feels like it may be slowing down just a little bit<<

Congratulations (again) Bob. That sounds like real progress to me.

Bob,

I totally agree with your moving! There is no way that you have a second chance of regaining your marriage with the OM that close. I also believe that your wife probably does miss certian aspects of the affair, I know that I could sense my wife was missing the attention the OM.
Your are sooo correct in stating that what happens with the OM's family is not your business, I can recall a time when my wife was furious that the OM was not showing any signs of trouble with his marriage too. Then about 6 months later we found out, throught the grape vine, that he finally left his wife for yet another woman. (Looks can be deceiving!)
I'm really glad to sense such positive comments in your threads, I know your kids are probably happy too!

Gary

I guess I should have expected to see a bad day coming. I had been so positive, I suppose I just didn't want to think about it...

It was Halloween last night. One of the special nights of the year I always looked forward to because I sit on the porch with my good friend...the OM...and drink margaritas and talk about a lot of things and have fun with all the Trick or Treaters. Occassionally, the good friend - my neighbor on the other side - comes to join us & we sit on my porch and just enjoy each others company. Well, that night came last night....she took the kids to their friends' neighborhood (for obvious reasons) & I stayed at home to distribute candy because it's always so busy in our neighborhood. I guess that was a huge mistake. Soon after she drove off, I was handing out candy when OM drove up, which instantly reminded me of that aspect of my life that she and he destroyed. It was very painful...but then it got worse.

Later in the night, my other neighbors (the GOOD ones)...first, the wife, came up to me and gave me a big hug and told me how much they loved me, and how much they hate OM and my W for doing such a horrible thing to me. Then her husband came over to tell me the same thing, and the three of us sat in my house for a while talking. Turns out, it was apparently VERY obvious to the neighbors what was going on. While I was away (of course), the neighbor would see that the minute after OM's W left for work, he was on my doorstep, or she was on his. Two horny home delivery tramps not doing a very good job of hiding their indiscretions. My friend (the husband neighbor) commented that he didn't really realize what was going on until ANOTHER neighbor (farther down the street) made a comment on how inappropriately my W was flirting with OM out in the open. I don't know whether this was at a party when I was home, or at a different time, but it doesn't matter. It was obvious to other people, my wife the "Friendly Neighborhood Tramp", flaunting her little tryst while I'm overseas busting my ass to put food in her mouth and a roof over her head.

My good neighbors told me that they're horribly sad to see me go, and that they love me and want to stay in touch, because they're truly my good friends. They adored my wife, but now they hate her...especially the husband neighbor. When she came home, I told her about what we talked about, and she decided to go talk to them...to get it out in the open. I guess he didn't pull any punches with her...told her how disappointed he was in her and asked her how she could do such a thing to such a good man. She needs to hear what a selfish idiot she is from someone other than me and herself, so good for him.

Of course, the whole thing brought out the most horrible anger in me. It was shameful enough, but to find out how obvious their little happy time was....well....it's just infuriating. Regardless of what other people may think of me or her, which I'm trying not to let get the better of me, all that I could think of for a while was the example she set for her children...especially our 12 year old daughter...and how I can't wait to hear her preach morality to her when the time comes (which will be soon)...and I wondered if I wanted a hypocrite giving my child life lessons. Of course I don't. That would make me a hypocrite too, wouldn't it? There's nothing I hate worse than a hypocrite, which is merely a liar and a cheater who sells themself as a good person...and convinces themself and other people believe it.

You know...it's good that she feels humiliated and shamed by all this, which I know she does. She should. She deserves it for the rest of her life and I hope it's painful. But all the remorse, all the "I'm sorry's"...it still doesn't fix anything. That won't ever repair or give back that year she was out having sex and all that "passion" she HAD to have. I want retribution for that. Quid Pro Quo. I've said this before, but this whole thing...this sham that she made our marriage and our vows.....the fact that - according to "The Monogamy Myth" and "After the Affair" that approximately 80% of ALL households will be affected by infidelity - I'm coming to the realization that I'M the one who has it wrong. Hell, it was OK for her to go out and spread her legs for someone other than me for a year. She got to go have fun. All your WS's got to do that, while we were the idiots - the 20 percenters - who were remaining faithful. If it's only 20%, then why bother? And why should it bother the WS if they got to do it, "ight" or "wrong"? What, NOW it's not OK with her because I want to do the same thing? It's a little frickin late for that sentiment now, isn't it tramp? I'm seriously thinking that the only way I'll be able to get this aspect out of my mind is to even the score. Have as many sex acts as she did...make a level playing field so this won't be an issue for the rest of our lives.

I know what I'm going to hear. "That's only the anger talking"..."That will bring you down to her level"...That's DEstructive, not CONstructive". I know all that. But what if it's the only way I'll be able to heal...to be able to justify it by making it even? At least this aspect of it, anyway...so it won't have to keep coming up and be a horrible, painful reminder. I even proposed to her that she could buy me a hooker for the same number of times they did it, then she wouldn't have to worry that it might turn into something deeper. Hell, I'll use a condom even...unlike them. Otherwise, I just won't prevent it from happening at work like I have COUNTLESS times...which could lead to the full emotional aspect of my own affair. Hell, I'm a DAMN good catch, and people know that (except my wife for a year, obviously). If it was clear that I'm no longer happily married, they'd come out of the woodwork. Now THAT, I would think she wouldn't want.

BTW, she STILL hasn't gotten STD & HIV tests, and isn't planning to. She thinks it's not necessary because she knows where he's been. Right! The cheating, lying tramp trusts the cheating, lying cuckold cop. What a frickin' white trash hoot of a thought process that one is!!! I have to laugh at that one.

So, here I am again...back to square one, trying to figure out if buying this house we just put an offer on is the right thing to do. A bad day like yesterday (bleeding into today) is enough to get me to thinking that buying a house would be a STUPID move right now.

Aye yai yai!!!

"I'm seriously thinking that the only way I'll be able to get this aspect out of my mind is to even the score. Have as many sex acts as she did...make a level playing field so this won't be an issue for the rest of our lives."

I hear your anger Bob, and can relate as I was that angry also. I had the same thoughts.

I'm going to be super honest. ok? I think that you will likely venture into having sex with someone else. As you've said, the opportunities do arise for you.

So. If you do this out of vengance while you're married in order to get this out of your mind and eliminate the issue....um.

Well, it's likely to be a non-remedy. It's not as likely to help the marriage. The new woman, will she know your true motive?

Sorry. Just little concerns here.

I do understand that you need to do whatever you need to do to survive this. Perhaps the wisest thing a person could do in our situations would be to venture into an imaginary scenario of what the reality of hindsight might be and feel like, say, 5-10 years from now--in or out of the marriage. How will YOU feel? You'll never have to live in your wife's skin, but you'll always have to live in yours.

There is an amazing flip flop thing that happens with villians and victims too. I don't think anyone likes being the victim, reacting, and then finding themselves the villian somehow in the end.

<<<I'm seriously thinking that the only way I'll be able to get this aspect out of my mind is to even the score. Have as many sex acts as she did...make a level playing field so this won't be an issue for the rest of our lives.>>>

<<<I know what I'm going to hear. "That's only the anger talking"..."That will bring you down to her level"...That's DEstructive, not CONstructive". >>>
I won't tell you that Bob. All I WILL say is I did that. I needed "payback" and I needed to know I was attractive to some woman out there. So...I did it. I didn't go looking for it but when the opportunity was there I jumped. It wasn't even like a ONS where single people meet and there's a mutual attraction...it was soooo mechanical. Afterall I had something to prove to my W and to myself.

When it was over and I was going to leave she asked if I was gonna "call sometime". Ummmm....sure. Then it hit me, I had just used someone to make myself feel better. I felt terrible.

You mentioned hookers. Bob whatever the reason they are out there they are still someone's daughter and someone out there cares about them. I won't tell you what to do...all I will say is it probably won't have the result you think.

Don't hurt someboby else Bob. Even if they don't know..you will. I wished I wouldn't have taken that route.

Edited to add: In my situation it was a friend who "listened, thought I deserved better and was a great guy". If you have a close female friend saying those things to you..BEWARE.

Tex

Hey Bob,

I hear you! Loud and Clear!
My wife refused to go and have her self checked for STD also…. Her excuse was that she couldn’t face our doctor, who is a good friend of our family. Well, I decide to go and have the full blood work done just to be safe…you want to talk about embarrassing! Let me tell you how humiliated I was to ask my friend (our Doctor) to please call (himself) with the test results. I was so ashamed that I didn’t want any of his staff knowing what was going on, I mean Damn…. my kids have to see him and all of his staff when there sick etc. Then I had to hear my wife’s poor excuses for why she felt that there was no problem with contracting a disease, like she actually trusted the OM’s word. What a crock of sh!t….

It all goes back to one issue…..Do you think of your kids ands what’s best for them or do you bail and keep you sense of dignity. This was the final question that I had kept me up for so many nights. Like I stated in the past, your wife’s past will bite her in the butt, big time. I can recall watching my wife crying hysterically because she knew what a terrible role model that she had become. This is when WE have a chance to respond with love in a way that speaks to our spouse that encourages them to learn from their mistake, do not repeat them again and move on. I understand your lack of not wanting to help your wife at this point in the relationship, you still have too much on your plate but in time I feel that you will learn what the word compassion means. I see so many folks walking around with what I call lip service, they’ll tell you how much they love their kids, they’ll say how tough they are but when the rubber hits the road they fall apart. It would be easy to simply pack your bags and walk away, telling your wife that she’ll have to explain to the kids why you are leaving. But it takes a tremendously strong person to stay, in spite of loosing their sense of pride.

Does your wife deserve such a good man as you? Maybe not but your kids do!
Can an affair mess with a persons mind? Absolutely…All the horrible and twisted details can send a normal individual over the edge. That is why so many people have reached out to you, trying very hard to help you stay focused on a bigger picture. If you only knew how many good friends where there for me in my time of need, I cannot believe that 3 ½ years has passed since my own D-day! I have such a sense of self worth because I listened to good friends and remained focused on keeping my family together. Your going to have to find your solution in doing the same, I can only give you ideas on what worked for me. Like I said before, divorce is always an option but it will not elevate all of the feelings that your presently going through.

What saddens me the most is this; life comes at you hard, why would people who supposedly care for us what to add to the hardship!

Gary….

""""Well, it's likely to be a non-remedy. It's not as likely to help the marriage. The new woman, will she know your true motive?""""

I thought seriously about having a revenge affair too and I certainly had the opportunity. But realizing how hurt I was over my wife's affair, I thought how could I knowingly hurt some other person like my wife hurt me? How could I do that to another woman, to the other woman's family and so on? There is no level playing field. No matter what you do, the playing field will never be level. First of all, your wife probably expects you to do it. She'll be pissed and protest but it won't have the same blind siding effect that her unknown affair had on you. It just won't have the same impact therefore the playing field will never be level. Don't kid yourself.

Back in the beginning I found out that I had 2 friends whose husbands cheated. Both women in their anger went out and had revenge affairs. They both screamed at me, "don't do it. It will just make things worse." And one of them added, "Once I had screwed another guy, that's when I realized that my marriage was over even if I had wanted to save it, I could no longer do my part after that."

Just food for thought.

<<<And one of them added, "Once I had screwed another guy, that's when I realized that my marriage was over even if I had wanted to save it, I could no longer do my part after that.">>>

So very true. You can't go back and undo it Bob. And living with it is a hard thing to do.

That may be...but the reality is, she has put me in the frame of mind that I never had before....never would have considered in a million years because I made a vow that meant something to me. She shattered that. She didn't care about me, why should I care about her now?

Whether we stay together or not, that's the reality. That's the mindset that I should NEVER have had. But I do now, because she gave it to me. I don't know when opportunity will knock, but it always does (at the most interesting times, and quite often)...and this time I won't have the same strength and resolve, because she took it from me, mangled it up in a little ball, threw it on the ground, smashed it under her foot, then spit on it and laughed.....with no regrets until she got caught.

I want that back, and it's difficult to see that mindset changing any time soon, if ever. She led a double life...lied to me flawlessly...had her fun with no regrets...and then acted like everything was peachy with me and her kids...my family...her family...just like a good little snake would. Hell, I can do that too! Now.

If you wanna sleep with someone else then leave Bob. Period. I never thought about it either and i fell into that trap and that was AFTER the marriage was over. I still felt bad.

Don't try to blame your wife if you step outside the marriage and then blame her if you feel bad afterwards.

I think you are wanting to punish her but in the end you will end up punishing yourself worse. If you do it then take the responsibility for it. No get out of jail free card Bob. Does that mean she gets to lecture you and out yell you? Does she get to tell you how you should feel? If you play the moral highground you will lose because you will have to look at yourself and that's not a pretty picture. Why do you wanna make it worse?

Think about it...

Tex

“”””She didn't care about me, why should I care about her now?””””

No one is saying that you have to care about her just yet. But you better start caring about yourself and what your kids will think of you. You should care about the unknown opportunity person that you say will come around. What if that woman has a family and a husband? Would you want another man feeling about you like you feel about OM? Would you want to be looking over your shoulder for a long time? Would you want the responsibility of breaking up a home? Ok so you take advantage of a single woman, just use her for sex and then throw her away like a dirty tissue. What a man you would be.

“”””and this time I won't have the same strength and resolve,””””

If you are looking for permission to hurt someone (because affairs always hurt someone) from people on this site, I doubt seriously that you will ever get it.

“”””Hell, I can do that too! Now.””””

No you can’t, not in good conscience.

Bob, this shit hurts like a son of a bitch. We all know it. You are not alone. Keep whaling away. Believe it or not it is helping you.

No, I'm not looking for permission...and yes, I know that being an OM myself would truly bring me down to the trailer trash level that she and he created. I wouldn't do that...COULDN'T do that, especially now. I'm just saying that the thought is now raw...it exists because she made it exist...and where there was no question before how I would react, now there is....but a BIG question, not just a passing thought. In fact, every woman I work with who I know is single and likes to have fun for fun's sake have suddenly taken on a whole new look to me. All I'm saying is, that thought shouldn't be there...and it was NEVER there before...not in an "I could act on this" way. Now it is.

Bob, you can't believe how much you sound like I did 3 1/2 years ago. It was all I could do to stay out of jail because of my anger. I had a political job that was at risk for any bad decision on my part. I was within a year of retiring. An entire career with benefits would have been washed away in one instant of reacting with emotions instead of thinking things through.

People at my work found out about my wife's affair and the women "did" start coming out of the woodwork, as you put it. One came into my office and said, "I know you are hurting. I'll "f" you any place any time." You'd have to understand where I worked. It was just a matter of an elevator ride to get to a private room with a bed.

I yelled and screamed at my wife and OM for making such idiot decisions. He and his wife were married 32 years and we had been married 31 at d-day. My friggin lifetime wasted. Why did I have to be the responsible one? Why couldn't I just throw our lives away like they had done? Angry, Bob, I was livid for over 3 years, I mean pissed. I had to constantly drink water just so I could talk in our IC sessions. Went threw 3 counselors myself just trying to deal with anger.

I say again, Bob, you are not alone. We understand.

Yup, we've all been there Bob. After I caught my ex cheating, I called OW's H and let him know what was going on but didn't talk to him again for about a month. When he called me to chat he told me he felt like cheating and I told him I did too. Then I told him that I had contemplated calling him b/c in reality, I had already slept with him - they also didn't use any protection b/c my ex had a vasectomy. We both laughed and thankfully never acted on it. I can laugh about this now but am so, so glad I didn't act on it back then. We've heard a few more regrets on this site in the past from those who have had revenge A's and I have never heard anyone say they felt better afterwards.

Hang in there Bob, I know it doesn't seem like it but these feelings will pass.

charlie

Bob,

As so many others have stated, the revenge affair just doesn’t work. We all understand what you’re saying, it’s not fair that you have these impulses, whether to hurt your wife or try and make yourself feel better. I refused to be the kind of person my wife had become with regards to adultery! A good friend once told me that some one has got to be the bigger person and put an end to all the madness that an affair creates, I understood what he was saying and I’m extremely thankful for the advice. I found that keeping myself entertained with hobbies, work, kids activities etc really helped me through the early stages.
There is no quick fix (PERIOD!) I now how much it hurts, we all do, but you have to remain focused on not allowing this ugly beast (the affair) ruin who you are!
I can remember looking at women in my place of work, I could sense that “they” some how knew I was vulnerable. I even made a comment to a close friend of mine that it seemed as if they could read my mind, it was weird. I’m so glad that I never acted on the impulse.
You are just as responsibly for the happiness and well being of your children, I understand that your wife had a major lapse of judgment with her actions but this should not give you the green light to do the same. Be thankful that at least one of you has the sane judegement to remain focused on your family; they should be your inspiration! Given time, your wife WILL come to her senses and I guarantee that she will be thankful that you did not crack under pressure. You may never hear her utter those words but trust me when I say that you will see it in her eyes!

Gary

This whole topic about revenge affairs is interesting. I understand what you're all telling me...I really do. No, I wouldn't lower myself to that level, because I've always had disdain for adulterers...always been very clear on that for many, many years...so I wouldn't want to despise myself like that for the rest of my life. I'll leave that up to her and her lover, if they have any conscience at all. They can carry that cross. No, my thought process works a little differently, but the details of which are probably not appropriate for this forum, and I'll figure it out on my own, in time, one way or another.

Diverting off my greater issue/topic for a second though, I really would like to know more about the negative (or positive, if it exists) aspects of the revenge affair in whatever form it takes from first or second hand stories. I know Tex had suggested that new BS's try not to post in the Open forum, but this sounds like a topic that would be appropriate for both BS's and WS's (maybe some who turned into BS's because of a Revenge Affair?). I don't know...just a thought and might make for an interesting sidebar. It's (obviously) forefront in my mind right now.

Would it be appropriate for me to ask about that on the Open Forum?

Jump in bro if you feel you are ready.

Tex