A new thread that I thought I'd post, based on the topic of revenge and Sage's comment on Karma in another post...

I've been thinking a lot about Karma lately, and have lost faith even in that. I spent some time in Bali about 9 1/2 years ago, where Balinese Hinduism relies heavily on Karma, and I found the people to be gentle, loving, truly devout souls. The beauty and serenity and depth of their lives without material possessions helped me to understand what inner peace is. It made me believe that one truly reaps what they sow. I was always a strong believer in "The Golden Rule", even though I am in no way religious. I believed that it was a moral choice as a human, and it was a very strong, very real aspect of my personality. My understanding of the peace you have within yourself for being a good person made me strong, so I lived my life by that moral code. The good that was in me WAS my religion. Karma was an extension of that for me. I truly believed that good things happen to good people. Right now, I feel so overwhelmed by how untrue that is, now that this horrible life event has happened.

I found this synopsis on the Buddhist definition of Karma. It so applies to our situations here. It may not give us the answer to our issues, but it is interesting. It's a long read, but when has that ever stopped me before?

I only ask these questions to think about while you read this...What did we do as BS's to deserve this condition? Do good people deserve this level of bad Karma, created by someone else? Why are we reaping (suffering for) what others have sown (the horrible actions of our WS's in which we had no say...no choice)? If the principle of Karma truly applies, how could those of us who stayed true deserve this? Is it because we chose the wrong life partner in the first place? Was that our mistake? Was our mistake that we were too trusting of another? But isn't that the basis for good Karma? Is that a mistake which deserves this amount of pain? If someone can do such a horrible thing to us when we didn't deserve it, how can the principle of Karma apply? Maybe I'm too impatient to understand that Karma is a lifelong principle...but it certainly seems to be contradictory at this point in my life. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I really did subscribe to that principle before this affair happened. Maybe Cory is right and I just overthink things when I should just be accepting them. I'm working on that, because it appears I have no choice now.

Here's the synopsis...

Karma

When people are happy and contented, they tend to take life for granted. It is when they suffer, when they find life difficulty, that they begin to search for a reason and a way out of their difficulty. They may ask why some are born in poverty and suffering, while others are born in fortunate circumstances. Some people believe that it is due to fate, chance, or an invisible power beyond their control. They feel that they are unable to live the life they desire so as to experience happiness always. Consequently , they become confused and desperate. However, the Buddha was able to explain why people differ in their circumstances and why some are more fortunate in life than others. The Buddha taught that one’s present condition, whether of happiness or suffering, is the result of the accumulated force of all past actions or karma.


Definition of Karma

Karma is intentional action, that is, a deed done deliberately through body, speech or mind. Karma means good and bad volition (kusala Akusala Centana). Every volitional action (except that of a Buddha or of an Arahant) is called Karma. The Buddhas and Arahants do not accumulate fresh Karma as they have destroy all their passions.

In other words, Karma is the law of moral causation. It is action and reaction in the ethical realm. It is natural law that every action produces a certain effect. So if one performs wholesome actions such as donating money to charitable organisations, one will experience happiness. On the other hand, if one perform unwholesome actions, such as killing a living being, one will experience suffering. This is the law of cause and effect at work. In this way, the effect of one’s past karma determine the nature of one’s present situation in life.

The Buddha said, "According to the seed that is sown,
So is the fruit you reap
The door of good will gather good result
The door of evil reaps evil result.
If you plant a good seed well,
Then you will enjoyed the good fruits."

Karma is a law itself. But it does not follow that there should be a law-giver. The law of Karma, too, demands no law giver. It operates in its own field without the intervention of an external, independent agency.


Principle of Cause and Effect

General Principle

As one sows, so shall one reap. Every effect arises from a cause. Under certain conditions, a cause will come to an effect. This is a universal principle, on which Buddhist morality is based.

Here's a verse.
If you want to know the causes in your past life,
The way you live at present is the effect of your past life.
If you want to know what your future life will be,
What you do at present is the cause of your future life.

In the world, some beings are fortunate while others are less fortunate. Some are happy while others are less happy. Why?
The Buddha has specifically stated that Karma explains the differences between living beings. It is also Karma that explains the circumstances that living beings find themselves in.


Law of Karma

Karma is not fate nor predestination.

Literally, Karma means "action", "to do".

Action itself is considered neither good nor bad, but only the intention and thought make it so. Thus, Karma is an intentional, conscious, deliberate and wilful action. Karma is volition.

Every action must have a reaction, i.e. an effect. The truth applies both to physical world (expressed by the great physicist Newton) and to the moral world.

Law of Karma is an important application of the Principle of Cause and Effect in morality.

The denial of the Law will destroy all moral responsibility.

There are two kinds of Karma:

Good Karma (Kushala)
It means intelligent, or skillful. It refers to those intentional actions, which are beneficial to oneself and others, springing out from kindness, compassion, renunciation and wisdom.

Bad Karma (Akushala)
It means not intelligent, not skillful. It refers to those intentional action springing out from greed, hatred and illusion.

For unintentional actions, such as walking, sleeping, breathing, they have no moral consequences, thus constitute neutral Karma or ineffective Karma.


Rebirth in Six Paths

By practicing the Ten Good Deeds and Ten Meritorious Deeds, the fully ripened fruit of these wholesome actions consists of rebirth in the higher realms of happiness, i.e. Man, Asura and Deva.

Conversely, the full ripened fruit of the unwholesome action consists of rebirth in the lower realms of suffering, i.e. Hell, Hungry ghosts and Animals.

The effect of Karma may be evident either in short term or in the long term. Karma can either manifest its effects in this very life or in the next life or only after several lives.


Cause and Condition

Every cause has its effect. However, there must be conditions that are ripe for the effect. Karma, be it good or bad, can be affected by the conditions under which the actions are performed.

The conditions that determine the strength or weight of Karma apply to the subject and object of the action. Moreover, there are five conditions that modify the strength of Karma:

1. persistent, repeated action
2. action done with great intention and determination
3. action done without regret
4. action done towards those who possess extraordinary qualities
5. action done towards those who have benefited one in the past.

Though Buddhism stresses on Karma, it rejects fate. One should take good actions all the time, and let all good conditions arise so that:

1. evil retribution has little chance to come to an effect
2. good retribution becomes more and more significant in enhancing our lives in happiness and wellness.

- End -

As I say, I don't subscribe to any religious dogma, nor do I believe in an afterlife that Buddhists and Hindus believe. The general principles of this version of a moral code just seemed so strong to me...so real. Everyone searches for answers. I didn't consider this an answer...just one of the many good vehicles through which I lived my life. It's just horrible to think that the person we loved so much couldn't live the same way. It's so disheartening...so profoundly sad. And so very unfair to those of us who respected ourselves and our spouses so much that we tried to live this way.

I'm sorry....I'm just so very upset right now, after thinking about some of the horrible things my wife has done and said to me lately (on top of the BIG one). I know life isn't fair. I REALLY know that now. Maybe in the next life....

You know Bob, I'm not sure if I actually believe karma happens as deserved but I do think just by people's immoral actions, they often feel bad enough about it for a long time that in some ways karma does actually happen - through guilt.

I was just doing a book report on a book called "The Wisdom of Crowds," and in a small part of it the author was talking about the old CEO of the New York Stock Exchange, (who had done a fairly good job) being asked (by his board) to step down because they themselves (the board) gave him a bonus worth about $135 million for bonuses and other reasons. Anyway, the author said that the public was so outraged for him making that much money, that they caused the board to ask him to quit. Anyway, he suggests that people's ethical beliefs often causes things to happen as they should. Even though these people did not get anything because they complained, so no "self interest," the "right" thing still happened. He suggested that likely no person should be paid that much in bonuses for ANY job you could do and that, in effect, it was controlled by the outrage of the public. The Board who asked him to step down actually GAVE him the bonus in the first place.

"Is it because we chose the wrong life partner in the first place?"

I don't feel that myself actually. After being here this long, I am more conviced than ever that in certain circumstances, nearly anyone would cheat. I know it doesn't sound too good but just the same its what I have concluded after getting to know some of the former WS's here.

Charlie

I believe most definitely in "cause and effect"... every action causes a reaction.

We certainly are here because of our choices. We chose to trust blindly, we chose to hand over control of our lives to someone else, we chose to not look deeper into the person to whom we promised our lives. Our trust was betrayed, our control was taken, and we chose a person who would do those things.

If you do good in life, you are known for the good that you do. When the world has good to give it finds those who spared it in life. If you do evil in life, you are known for the evil that you do. When the world has evil to give it finds those who have given it before.

Did one person say you reap what you sow because they saw it happen in their lives once? Would it have become an old proverb had it just happened to that one person that one time? Out of 10 people you know who sowed evil, how many times did they not reap evil from that?

Hi Bob!I love reading your posts because you & I seem to think alot alike. I've thought alot about the Karma thing too. Since Oct. 2004,when I first started suspecting H, I have had the worst "luck" & I don't know why.First H lost his job, house went into foreclosure. Got pulled over for no lite on back license plate(YOU KNOW the rest of that story!), hit the deer on the way to the coast about 5 weeks ago, & THEN 2 nites ago I parked H's truck in our driveway & forgot to put the emergency brake on because my mind was on the affair. Well, it rolled down our short sloped drivway,across the street & hit my neighbor's car. I WANNA GIVE UP!!I don't know why any of this is happening & I am going crazy looking for answers. I think very logically & there is nothing logical in my life right now. I am alittle religious & when I can manage to attend church I go to the Unity church. In a nutshell, Unity teaches that we are each on our own spiritual journey & there is no right or wrong path. My H does not believe in God at all but he is(?) or at least was what I would consider a good person. Anyway, maybe he has to learn whatever lessons he needs to learn thru this experience.Maybe I'm supposed to learn something too. I'm sure I am. I would not have been able to write these things yesterday or even this morning but I am actually having a few good moments right now. I am sorry that all of us are having to hurt so much. I wish our spouses knew how lucky they are to have us because we must truely love them in the deepest sense. They should look at us as gifts to be treasured. I can dream! Hang in there Bob.

Bob,

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think of Karma as a sort quid pro quo, what goes around comes around, kind of thing. That would be like expecting to receive an expensive gift today because you helped a little old lady across the street yesterday. I can't believe it's as simple as that.

I expect most BS have felt strongly at one time or another that we must have done something to have deserved being betrayed. Partly, I think that's because our minds are simply built that way. It is the nature of the mind to look for explanations. Some people understand the belief in the existence of God (or the gods) that way.

>>When people are happy and contented, they tend to take life for granted. It is when they suffer ... that they begin to search for a reason<<

Avoiding suffering seems impossible if we can't understand the reason for it. Having no explanation is not acceptable to most of us.

>>The effect of Karma may be evident either in short term or in the long term. Karma can either manifest its effects in this very life or in the next life or only after several lives<<

Living well often brings rewards, like contentment and peace of mind. Living badly may bring its punishments but it seems to be that there must be exceptions. "Bad things can happen to good people" (and "good things can happen to bad people, I suppose). If a kid walks into a mall and starts shooting people at random, did all of the people who were killed have bad karma?

Quinn

Wow Bob....it's me...Sage...and as usual I am going to respond with some thoughts that came up for me. I can see a great deal of myself in you...I too am trying to figure out why this terrible thing happened to my family. I have read more books than I ever thought possible. What are you hoping to find in the books that you read or the spiritual concepts you attempt to apply to your situation? I think that is the crux of this...THERE IS NO ANSWER. And, what you have read thus far doesn't "fit" the explanation that you want to ease the pain. I keep wanting to read the books that say that the WS ends up seeing the err of his ways and comes back home to what he had...there is not such book out there. Whether he was here or not (he chose not to be) I would still experience the pain of trying to figure it out. Who knows? I read your statement, good things happend to good people...well so do bad things. If you look back over your life, you have described a wonderful life...no money worries, two healthy children, a home you can live in, a job you go to every day, a wife who loves you....oops. How could she love me in light of what she did? Who knows? Maybe this affair has to do with HER and what she needed to experience in life and had nothing to do with you. Unfortunately, you were on the receiving end because you were in a relationship with her. We are ALL social creatures. We get a sense of who we are, not in isolation, but as the outcome of social interactions we have with one another. What do you see when you look in her eyes? I mean, about YOU? How are you relfected in her eyes? You are seeing yourself as a what, failure? Someone who should not have gone to China (wherever) for 6 months and left your family? Someone whose moral fiber is so tight that you would NEVER have committed the infidelity that your wife did? I'm going back to the control thing. You played your cards right...you did EVERYTHING you were supposed to do....yet, you are sitting here in pain because of what YOUR WIFE DID. I don't think you are going to find a written passage that absolves you from your pain...there is nothing out there printed that will help you to feel less pain about this. I don't think. The notion of marrying the wrong person? How is it that you were okay for 20 years? Maybe your karma changed. Maybe her karma changed. Who knows. I realize that the words I share do not make you feel any better. You won't feel any better until you come to the point of realizing that this was totally out of your control. Your wife made a very bad choice. She hurt you, her children, your friends, your family. It was her fault. Her choice. NOW, can YOU live with the collateral damage of her choice? Only you can answer that. I don't think you have lived it long enough. You don't have enough "lived" time to determine it. It almost sounds as though you think that this happend for a reason...is that what you think? I don't think so. I am sure that there is some personal growth to be gained from this. Perhaps your marriage is one that was in trouble and neither of you knew it. Maybe your Karma was destined for you to live the rest of your life with this woman...but the way things were going would not have permitted it? Maybe your wife was focused too much on the kids and not enough on you. We could grasp for reasons all night long. Some people just simply make stupid choices, unfortunately, you were married to one. So was I. So were all of the other BS on this site. I still think your time is too early. I would certainly continue to pursue your thinking....but I dont' think it will get you the answer you are looking for. It has helped me to read the posts from the WS who indicate that they were really not thinking about their spouses when the A occurred....it was all about them. You are one of the lucky ones who has the ability to communicate what your needs are...your wife didn't...it doesn't mean that she can't get there. She has to find her own way of getting there. Unfortunately it will be painful for you too. Go read Ereck Tolle....nothing has ever happened in the past...is only happens in the NOW. Be in the NOW...that's hard to orchestrate at times. I honestly believe that you will experience some sense of relief from all of this. Perhaps you need to be physically distanced from her. Have you tried that since d-day? Maybe you need to appreciate her more and that will be the way that you determine that...really understand what she means to you in your life. Perhaps you were meant to live without her...that would be sad, but not the end of the world. There may be someone out there better suited for you to live out the rest of your life...you won't know that unless you distance yourself from her. I don't know the answer, obviously. But, neither does Buddah.

Another thought....why do we attempt to place "scientific" theory to human interaction? This cause and effect thing....think of the amount of control that has to be present in order to honestly state that A caused B....there are not such levels of control in human behaviors. I don't think that these unfortunate things that happen to us can be explained in such a mechanistic manner.....too much "noise" too many things that are out of our control. Bob...do you think that if you didn't go away for 6 months that your wife would not have had an affair? You WILL NEVER KNOW. Perhaps not...perhaps she would have...you won't know that. Again, there is not control that we have over things. Another thing that came up for me...how do we know about human suffering unless we experience pleasure? We wouldn't have a frame of reference for suffering unless we had experienced the opposite...right? In light of what you know now, Bob, how would you like your life to be different? You have now experienced the affair. What would you want to change about your life that would make it more palatable? That would better explain things to you? What changes would have to take place? Who would have to make the changes? Food for thought

Hi Phoenix. I have to disagree with you. I did look deeply at every aspect of my H before I married him.We dated for a yr. & lived together for like 6 years before I would marry him. There was NOTHING that would have suggested he would ever do this. I had a terrible first marriage that taught me alot. All these years my H was wonderful & dependable. I don't know why this happened but I do know he showed no signs of this.

You know Sage, I've been reading and re-reading your replies. They are so insightful, even in their questioning. They are tough questions too...ones that require a lot of introspection.

I don't regret anything I've done, because I do know that she made this horrible choice. It was her decision, for which she has to take responsibility...for ALL the fallout that occurs because of it too. Yes, there were problems with the marriage before the affair, but not insurmountable ones...at least, as far as I was concerned. If she couldn't communicate that to me, that's HER fault, not mine.

So do you think that marrying someone who has the ability to make SUCH a stupid choice isn't a stupid choice to begin with? Which is the chicken and which is the egg? Maybe I didn't know she had that capability. Maybe SHE didn't know it. But since she did do this horrible thing, that still makes my decision a stupid one, albeit 18 years later, doesn't it?

We have discussed physical separation, but up to this point in time, I thought that it would be the worst thing to happen to us. I think maybe because I still don't trust her enough to think that she wouldn't be carrying on her affair. I still don't know for sure, but I think she wouldn't do that. I just knew that physical separation was one of the biggest problems in our marriage that she couldn't communicate to me. Let me rephrase...she not only couldn't communicate that to me, she communicated JUST THE OPPOSITE to me. We agreed to communicate to each other if my being away for months at a time (for almost a year and a half, not 6 months) would be a problem. It was very clear before I started this assignment...and she agreed. She also started the physical aspect of her affair one week before I came home for 6 weeks, so I'm not really buying the "lonely" thing anyway. I don't think she's being honest with herself about that one yet...so she can't be honest with me about it.

I digress...so getting back to the separation thing. For those reasons, I never thought it was a good idea, and so I always said that if I leave the house, I'm gone for good. I've been rethinking that lately. The way I'm feeling about her in the last couple of days....indifferent...apathetic...because it's the way she's making me feel about her....I'm wondering if separation isn't a good idea. To maybe find out if being apart is better than being together. I promised I would stay until the end of January though, so I'll keep my promise and find out how I feel then. A LOT can happen in two months, as is evidenced by how much has happened in the last two months.

As far as your comparison of knowing pleasure if we haven't experienced pain. I'm sorry, but no pleasure has been as fantastic as this pain is devastating. I don't consider this pain to be the opposite of any pleasure I've experienced. Maybe it is for some people...but it's hit me harder than almost anything I could have ever imagined...and more. It's more polar opposite than "Loving thee to the very depth and breadth and height my soul can reach", because the discovery of it was SO harsh, and SO stupid and cowardly, and SO sudden, and SO horribly timed with everything else that's going on in my life (deaths of my parents, death of my job, plus losing my friend AND my wife in the same affair. What a bitch this life is!!!). Love is gained and built gradually, over weeks, months, years. This shattering reality hit in ONE DAY! That's not a comparable reference.

How would I like my life to be different? Now THAT'S the $64,000.00 question!!! If I can't look back and have to live in the NOW, what would make it better for me? Wow! Well, for starters, my wife would completely "get it", and understand what it would take to make it up to me...but I can hear you now, that's imposing control, and I can't do that, because control is a myth.

OK...what else then...? Perhaps if we could both fulfill the basic needs that we were neglecting in each other BEFORE the affair occurred...but that's a myth too, because one of them, I communicated to her throughout our marriage and she could never fulfill it anyway. Maybe that's an eye opener for me...a realization. I dunno...maybe that's why I've been feeling numb lately. I don't know what else would make it better right now...no answer that wouldn't imply or require control of some sort...so I'm at a loss. More thinking required!

As far as Karma goes. It was a nice principle to live by. Bad things do happen to good people...just like good people make horrible, stupid, selfish, hurtful decisions. I know I'm a good person who didn't make bad decisions, and I like myself for that. It was a good run of 22 years before really bad Karma hit our relationship. At least I can look back on my own reaction to things and the things I did right and be proud of myself that I did the right thing while my marriage was still intact. Maybe I'll realize one day that THAT is at least a reward for being good. The spiritual payoff for more years than many people get. As for the future....one day at a time right now, I guess.

Hello all,

I will not pass myself off as a deep thinker but I have given this karma some thought. I believe with all my heart that what comes around goes around.... and I equate that to karma. You can not do bad without remorse and get good back. A little story.... I was married right out of high school and my 1st H cheated on me and I made him leave, divorced him and went to college and made a life for myself. We had no children. I was hurt and felt deeply betrayed but I moved on and after a few years he was out of my mind.... now he on the other hand move in with ow had a child and got married. He got her a job where he worked... within a few years she left him for his boss and took his son with her.... while I lost a good for nothing H... he lost a good for nothing W, his job and his son...... makes me wonder what she has coming....

That is one of the things that keeps me from doing crazy things I've obsessed about. I don't really have to see the out come of karma... I just know it's coming. To me it just makes sense.... plus it makes me feel better. And hey thats what its all about... making O feel better...

Great story O. I like your definition of Karma...what goes around comes around. I would love to think that my former H and the OW are the most miserable people in the world. Sometimes I think that is just a mental game/rationalization on my part. Hell, they both have come out smelling like roses...at least to one another. Other people involved, children, co-workers are probably suffering but it is not acknowledged by them. The two of them left so many damaged souls....so many questions unanswered, so many hearts broken and trying to heal. What do they have? Each other. That's a biggie, I think. I used to think about him being as hurt as I am. I used to not wish it on him because I felt that it would hurt me too and I don't need anymore pain. I felt this because I thought that the only thing that would really hurt him was if something happened to one of our children. I guess I forgot that he was equally attached to his "other" family as well and that if something happened to one of them, it would be hurtful for him. Whew. It continues to amaze me that a person could make such an emotional shift in life...I realize that he contemplated this for years...feeling unhappy, looking at me to blame it on...finding her to make it better. I am where he was 5 years ago and I have a lot of time to go. I want to come out of this a grounded, mature, healthy person. I havent' figured out how to do that. I have been putting most of my energy in wishing bad things for him instead of good things for me. BUT, my life is good. I am simply sad that he decided to leave the relationship and focus too much on the past and what I needed to do differently. This is all such a new experience for me. I never focused on the past. I was pretty much in the present...DUH...and your H had an A, so how much int he present were you? DUH? I guess I wasn't. Anyway, my conscience is clear...I didn't do anything to "get even" or "get back". I don't have a need to do that and I would NEVER want to role model that for my children. They will have enough experience with that on their own. I continue to want to be here for them and they know they can count on me. I wish they had him in their lives like that as well...but they don't. I think fathers are so important to their children's maturity and development...my children weren't lucky. For that I am SOOOOOO sorry. BUT, they at least got the part of him that was functional when they needed it...they are grown and gone...and very wonderful men. Don't know why I am saying this...I lost sight of my original thoughts...I quit so that I don't belabor this.

""""Sometimes I think that is just a mental game/rationalization on my part.""""

Sage, I think you do this too and I think you do it because it gives you hope that he will come to his senses and come back to you and be the person that you wish that he was.

Regarding Karma, a career in dealing with criminal and delinquent behaviors does not produce a person (me) who believes in Karma. I know for a fact that good things happen to really bad people who don't deserve the good and really bad things happen to good people who darn sure don't deserve the bad. To me believing in Karma is probably the worst mind game that one can play on ones self. Acceptance of reality is tough sometimes but it will get you further than wishing. Living in a wishing world will stall you out because it hinders your ability to make the tough decisions. Making decisions gives us control of our lives.

Just my 2 cents worth, H2C

Bob....no, it was not a stupid decision to marry her unless you were able to predict the future and are a masocist. How do you know that the decision to buy the house where you did wasn't the thing that "caused" the affair? I think it's a control thing with you. You stated it, control is an IMPOSSIBLE thing to have. Why on earth would you want it? You mentioned that you would not consider a separation because you would be afraid of what she might do. Isn't that why you want it? To see what she might do? You indicated that she might start up the affair again...Bob...how does your being there prevent her from doing that? How would that stop her? You have mentioned in other posts that you somewhat suspect that she is doing it now...did I understand that right? She is going to do what she wants/needs to do. If your son wanted to play football and you didn't want him to, would you break his leg to stop him? See? Isn't that a rediculous thought? The logic behind this is not sound, is it? It is control, but would you resort to that? How does one get practice in not controlling? Hmmmm. Put yourself in a position where you give it up? What do you actually control in your life? NOTHING. Well, maybe when you get up in the morning, but the battery could stop working on your alarm clock...Oh, you have a second alarm clock...well, the electricity could go out too. Hmmmmm. Your life took a turn for the worst and there is nothing you could have done about it. NOTHING. I guess it's all about acceptance. I am still stuck there. I can't believe that this perfectly great person would flick his family. He is gone. There is nothing I could do about it. Why would I want someone in my life who doesn't want me? To prove myself right? Naw. THat used to plague me daily. I thought I was the perfect person...educated, bright, articulate, earning an income, contributing to the family, raising two wonderful sons, living in a wonderful city, doing healthy things, earing right, exercising......on and on. That was MY life, evidentally not his. Unfortunately it included him but he was unable to let me know that is was not what he wanted. I can't read minds. I think he actually accused me of not being able to do that. I am fighting a losing battle. What have I learned aabout myself because of this life experience? That I can't control anything. It is the best lesson in life to learn. To let go. I haven't completely been able to do it, but I am "practicing" it. I had a need to phone him every day and talk to him. Actually I had a need for him to phone me every day. Why? Because it meant that he was thinking about me. How do I know that? I don't. As I type this, my stomach and throat are reacting....I am so sad about what happend in my life. Both of my parents died very young...that was sad too. BUT, I have had good things happen too. I don't think that my children would have turned out any other way had my former H not fathered them. We did that together..although he would say that he was not a part of that....but he was. His very presence in my life helped to make me the good parent that I was. His absence in my life has made me not such a good parent....I am sad and they see that. BUT, that's okay too...they have learned compassion. I am going to stop. Why don't you try to practice no control? I don't know what that would look like for you, but I am sure that the opportunities are abound. Your pain has been so clearly articulated....it has helped me to understand that keeping the marriage in tact would have been a very rough road...I needed to learn that.

H2C,

I always love your posts! But I don't think of karma as sticking my head in the sand and wishing for the best.

<<<Regarding Karma, a career in dealing with criminal and delinquent behaviors does not produce a person (me) who believes in Karma. I know for a fact that good things happen to really bad people who don't deserve the good and really bad things happen to good people who darn sure don't deserve the bad.>>>

I know you see the worst of the worst in your line of work. And I do believe that some people are pure rotten and have no redeeming qualities. But I still stand by my belief in karma... as I define it anyway.



<<<To me believing in Karma is probably the worst mind game that one can play on ones self. Acceptance of reality is tough sometimes but it will get you further than wishing. Living in a wishing world will stall you out because it hinders your ability to make the tough decisions. Making decisions gives us control of our lives.>>>

I don't think we live in fairy land and the world is all balanced and good. Karma helps me let go of the need to seek revenge (ie: confronting ow... telling ow's H) because I do believe in the end she will get what she deserves. I may never know the extent of the "payback" for her nor do I care... just knowing it's coming "one day" helps me feel better... and one day if I find myself not giving her a thought... I think better karma for me in turn... I also know that people who believe in karma are kinder... because the common belief is you get what you give. Loosely stated... a persons actions in one stage of their life, helps determine their fate in the next stage.

I think I still have to put in the hard work, time and effort to get my relationship back on track as does my H. I do not think we have any control over karma so hoping and wishing doesn't matter. Its not like santa claus bringing all the good boys and girls their hearts desire. In the end.. you get what you deserve... and we the ones hurt may never know when, where or how and thats the beauty of it... we don't need to know to believe it can happen... it helps me to move on and as long as I put in the work and live a good life and don't rely on karma... whats the harm?.. thats my mystic side hanging out.... O

""""I also know that people who believe in karma are kinder...""""

I don't think this statement is fair to reality based folks or any other group for that matter and I certainly don't think it is necessarily accurate. There are probably just as many kind people in one group as another. For instance just because a person works with criminals doesn't make that person unkind.

Based on your theory of karma, do you think that you DESERVED to be cheated on?

<<< """"I also know that people who believe in karma are kinder...""""

I don't think this statement is fair to reality based folks or any other group for that matter and I certainly don't think it is necessarily accurate. There are probably just as many kind people in one group as another. For instance just because a person works with criminals doesn't make that person unkind.>>>


Awww c'mon I was a little more lighter than you're making me out to be. I was saying as a whole the people I know who believe in karma are a kind bunch of people because they believe you get what you give... I was not comparing them to any other group of people or saying they were kinder the than anyone else... at least I didn't mean to imply that. Maybe I worded it wrong... well hell.. shoot me in the head and call it BAD karma.


<<<Based on your theory of karma, do you think that you DESERVED to be cheated on?>>>


No. I think my H is living his bad karma... I've been told so many times here that this Affair had nothing really to do with me. My H deserved all the shit I've been giving him for the last 8 months. If we make it and get a better understanding of each other, a deeper love, a stronger relationship and a happier marriage yeah I got what I deserved. If I end up going this alone, I have faith that there is someone for me out there.. because I deserve that. I DESERVE to be happy. I never said karma, as I define it, had anything to do with not getting hurt or having a hurt free life. I started my first post on this tread with " I will not pass myself off as a deep thinker" so we both know I don't have the smarts to sparr with you... however all this thinking has tuckered me out and I'm going to take a nap.

Truce folks...LOL.

I'll toss my hat into the ring...

I say whatever gets you through the day and/or night. My early days I would(and did) hang onto anything the helped me. Over time those things perhaps may change as mine did. Be careful when it stops being about strength and survival and becomes plain ole bitterness and the need to be "right".

I no longer would get any satisfaction or pleasure of a karma bus, revenge bus or any type of bus hitting her. Early days...perhaps. Well...yup. As far as the OM I would have driven the bus...semi...whatever.

Whatever helps you...go with it for now.

Tex

Hi Tex! How's it going? Me, 3 days & no tears. Feels good! I know I have lots more hurdles to jump but at least I know they are jumpable(Hee!).My past record was something like 6 days without tears. I know, baby steps! I can do this. At least that how I feel today!Thanks for all your wisdom & advice on the boards!

After my nap... I feel a bit more refreshed and not near as cranky.... I really don't put alot of FAITH in karma just the belief in what goes around comes around.... I guess thats MY definition of karma. I think I'm better for it because I find myself letting go more and more of the negitive crap thats weighing me down.... simply put.... I don't wanna worry about it anymore and if karma takes care of it... all the better and if by chance it's a big fat lie and karma doesn't exisit... what harm was done?? I'm not dwelling in the past or wishing for revenge or hiding from my feelings.... I'm living my life as best I can.

oh yeah and BTW I think I'm pretty smart too. O

O, I used to believe in "what goes around comes around" too. My wife's affair has changed all of that. As I see it, "what goes around comes around" means that you get out of life what you put into it, what you deserve whether good or bad. The pain from betrayal is horrible. I'm not perfect but I'm a decent person by society standards and there is no way that I deserved to be cheated on by me doing something to someone else as horrible as betrayal. So my point is "what came around" to me was just not fair, undeserved and unjust by karma standards because I never hurt anyone this badly to deserve and suffer this much pain. I suspect that you didn't either. That's why I don't believe in "what goes around, comes around" because "what should have come around" to me would have been something entirely different, a lot more pleasant in my opinion.

I'm glad your nap went well. While you were naping I was changing a flat on my wife's car in freezing weather. Frozen fingers and frozen toes. LOL

And by the way, I ain't no smarter than you is.

H2C,

You are right.... you don't deserve any of the pain your W caused. I don't think for one minute that any of us has "done" anything to deserve this.

Hope your toes and fingers warmed up... O