Like Charlie, I didn't want to threadjack Barbarapat, but I wanted to respond to the issues people are feeling about forgiveness today on that thread...

I've been thinking a lot about the forgiveness thing as well. Especially after the last few days. My wife and I have been having a really rough time. She thinks I will NEVER be able to let this go and will blame her for the rest of our lives. I tell her that if she has those feelings, then we're wasting our time trying and we should divorce right now, because if she feels that kind of negativity on TOP of me struggling for any sign of hope, then we don't stand a chance. It's true that I've NEVER been a very forgiving person, so she's afraid that it can't happen this time, because this is the biggest thing by far for which anyone would ever need forgiveness from me.

I don't know who said this about forgiveness in one of my very early threads, but it did stick with me. The comment was that they saw forgivenss not as something that can just happen, like turning on a light switch, but rather as a dynamic process that happens over a lot of time. That it correlates with the easing of the pain and shock and eventually just becomes a memory. A bad memory, certainly, but one that you can eventually put far enough in the back of your mind that the filthiness of the event, and the retribution that you want for it aren't as prevalent anymore. Forgiveness isn't an event or a happening that you suddenly realize, but more like a journey or a series of milestones that you pass and it takes you farther away from the pain and anger, which eventually allows you to be forgiving.

I would like to think of it in these terms. I know I won't just say, "I forgive you, let's move on", and then never have this event bother me anymore or bring it up in heated conversation. That absolutely won't happen. Right now, I feel like I could never forgive her for this idiotic mistake, just like Barbarapat was saying. But I would like to think that the hatred I feel for that mistake will wane someday, and will continue to wane with the rebuilding of trust and respect for her, if her actions show that she's sincere. That person was in there once...that person upon who I had pure faith. I just need to see that the person who made the "Mother of ALL Mistakes" no longer exists...FOREVER. I know that will take a long time and a lot of hard work on both our parts...and lately, it feels like I won't ever see that person again. But I know I have to be patient and not make any rash decisions, nor push her or "control" her into showing me. She asked me if I truly believe in my heart that she would do that again...but my heart has been shattered into a million pieces, so I can only respond with what my head tells me. OF COURSE it's telling me I can't trust her right now after what she's done. My heart wants to believe she never will again, but the shock of it all just won't let me...RIGHT NOW. Hopefully, not forever. It's the hope that I'm clinging to.

I agree with you, Barbarapat, that the WS should bend over backwards to try and make things right. I also think my wife doesn't do that enough. But at the same time, I've come to the realization that I am not good at acknowledging when she DOES try hard, which she truly is most of the time. As much as we don't want to admit it, THEY have feelings too. No, they don't - and may NEVER - truly "get it", meaning that they can't step up to the level (that WE need) of showing us that they know how much they've hurt us. But if they're trying to understand, we at least owe it to them to show appreciation for their efforts, whether we can be responsive to them at the time or not. Otherwise, they'll think that they're just wasting their time on a lost cause....fighting a losing battle.

I know it sounds completely contradictory that we should be acknowledging THEIR feelings right now. H2C has tried to tell me this many times, and I just didn't understand that until recently. In a perfect world, we shouldn't care about how they feel right now, because they committed the ultimate disrespectful, horrible act on us that they possibly could have. It SHOULD be all about us if they're truly remorseful. My line of thinking has (slightly) changed about that recently though. This ISN'T a perfect world, no matter how much we want it to be right now. Otherwise, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Yes, they should be trying hard to fix it, no question. But we have to be able to accept that they can only try as hard as they are ABLE to try. No, that probably won't ever be good enough for us. I'd go so far as to say that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to to try as hard as we want them to try, because they CAN'T truly "get it" at this point, and maybe never will. But events in our marriages helped create the selfish people that they became - which still in no way excuses them for their stupid choices - and the WS's who are at least TRYING to "get it" still have a long way to go before that hard shell gets worn down and the selfishness - or whatever it is - subsides. It was a long time building that resentment which facilitated that selfishness, so it will be a long time for them to come out of it.

I also understand now that this resentment is now amplified in their feelings since all of this has come out. In my case, it was years of not truly listening to my wife, which made her shut down. If I ignore that issue from the past and put all the responsibility on her right now - even at this point when I feel like she should be doing all the work to fix this mess - then it will only gloss over the greater issue in order to temporarily patch the wound. Like taking a pain killer for apendicitis...the problem will only be masked, but it will still be there...and will eventually explode and cause more damage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, even though we (rightfully) feel that they should be trying harder, and we don't really know if we'll ever forgive them...we should at least acknowledge and appreciate the positive efforts that they DO make, and maybe it will make them WANT to try harder. The vicious cycle that we're all experiencing could be reversed into a positive cycle. If we do that, and they respond in kind, the dynamic road toward that seemingly intangible thing called forgiveness might be easier to travel on....and forgiveness might be easier to realize, because we are at least showing some of it by recognizing/acknowledging their feelings in all this mess too.

Does that make sense? It's just kinda the thought process I'm having right now. Thinking this way gives me hope, anyway.

Just a quick response- I'm baking cookies at the moment.I do try & let my H know that I appreciate what he is doing. I thanked him for the flowers several times.I just wish he would or could try harder. I still have hardly any info about the A & it upsets me that he "can't remember" or "doesn't know". I guess someday this won't hurt as much; but right now I have to decide whether to stay or go. Maybe I don't have to decide right this moment but sometime in the near future.I just don't look at him the same & don't feel much for him.He's not who I thought he was.Now I just pretty much deal with myself & the kids.I'm what's important right now.Not him & his selfish reasons for doing what he did.He'll have to deal with himself.

Bob

I think that you are on the right path with delving deep into the meaning of forgiveness and actually acting upon it so that something positive will arise. Kudos to you.

Hoping to be in that space in the near future (within 6 years anyway - weak smile)

B

try....

How many times did I hear my H say "but I try" or "I tried"... and my answer was the same... Don't try... DO!

But we do need to acknowledge all the little baby steps made in the 'right' directions... it is what I call: details... details are important, they are in fact crucial, and order for us - BS - to acknowledge them we need to pay attention...I call it the 'baby step shuffle'...

And as you walk you make your path Kat